competitive residencies?

[amikhchi]

I know DOs have their own residencies that they can apply for, but how come whenever the topic of MD vs DO (or even IMG) comes up residency is always a key discussion point. Why is it so important how many DOs match into "competitive" MD residencies? I thought DOs have their own residencies that they can match to, don't they have the same competitive residencies that the MDs have?

Basically I just want to know if DOs have the all the same residencies (that only they can apply for) as MDs. And if so, what is the *benefit* of a DO going to an MD residency (if any)?

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[DrMidlife]

DO residencies are overseen by the AOA; MD residencies are overseen by the ACGME.

60% of DOs do ACGME residencies. This is the can of worms called "why does the AOA not provide enough residencies for its graduates?" A lot of AOA residencies go unfilled, mostly in rural primary care. IMGs aren't eligible to apply for these unfilled residencies, unlike ACGME.

AOA residencies include "all" the specialties, with a few notable exceptions like pathology. So you can do ortho, plastics, radiology etc in an AOA residency.

There are a lot of reasons why DOs do ACGME residencies, in particular the limited location choices for AOA spots. This quickly becomes the can of worms called "why are AOA residencies considered inferior to ACGME residencies?"

Links (dig deep and do Google searches for stats):

AOA: http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/

ACGME: http://www.nrmp.org/data/index.html

 

[JaggerPlate]

I know DOs have their own residencies that they can apply for, but how come whenever the topic of MD vs DO (or even IMG) comes up residency is always a key discussion point. Why is it so important how many DOs match into "competitive" MD residencies? I thought DOs have their own residencies that they can match to, don't they have the same competitive residencies that the MDs have?

Basically I just want to know if DOs have the all the same residencies (that only they can apply for) as MDs. And if so, what is the *benefit* of a DO going to an MD residency (if any)?

There are definitely DO residencies for every specialty (minus pathology and nuclear medicine) and they are only available to DO students. Here are the main complaints against them:

-Not enough for all DO students. Especially things like derm, plastics, ENT, etc ... few programs with few spots. It basically makes the competition on par (someone will probably debate this) with applying for the same things as an MD for ACGME. However, I have heard that AOA residencies put a lot of emphasis on audition rotations. Most basically say if you didn't rotate with us ... we won't take you. So passion may really shine through (not just numbers)

- People claim that a lot of programs aren't on par with their ACGME counterpart. I've always thought this was a harsh, but SDN typical statement. What it real boils down to is good vs bad residencies ... there are both on each side of the coin (ACGME and AOA). If you sleuth through some of the forums ... people rave about AOA ENT, Ophtamology, PRS etc. However, there are certain residencies that are unfunded ... aka, you don't get paid. Of course it's up to you whether or not you take this road (and these are few, and mainly in derm).

-The matches also line up funny. Most specalties (a few excluded) work where if you apply for both AOA and ACGME and match AOA (which comes first) you are automatically dropped from the ACGME match. A lot of people don't want to deal with this so they apply one or the other.

-Location, location, location. A LOT of AOA residencies are in midwesternish areas where people really don't feel like living. I think this turns off a lot of people, and is usually a big complaint.


With all that said, I wanted to give my $.02 on the subject, but please keep in mind that I am a pre-med so take everything I say with a grain of salt ...

Here is how I look at it. If you really want it ... you can be absolutely anything you want through an AOA residency. Will you have to perform very well in school? Yes ... as you would shooting for ACGME. Are you probably going to have to do an away rotation? Yes. Is there a chance you will have to live in the midwest for 3-5 years? Yes. Is there a VERY small chance you won't get paid and will have to moonlight etc? Yes. At the end of 3 years will you be a dermatologist practicing alongside the same clown from pre-allo who told you 5 years ago that it is impossible for a DO to match derm ??? You betcha.

The path will probably be less smooth than the ACGME route, but if you know what you want and (for you) the ends justify the means, an AOA residency might be something to look into.

 

[cliquesh]

Here are two links that I have found to be helpful:

http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/ - gives a list of all of the current AOA residency programs

http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/summpos.htm - the results of the 2008 AOA match, which gives you an idea of how many spots there are. For instance, there were 99 general surgery spots last year for 1,626 individuals who participated in the 2008 AOA match (only 1353 matched).

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Here are two links that I have found to be helpful:

http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/ - gives a list of all of the current AOA residency programs

http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/summpos.htm - the results of the 2008 AOA match, which gives you an idea of how many spots there are. For instance, there were 99 general surgery spots last year for 1,626 individuals who participated in the 2008 AOA match (only 1353 matched).

You misread the information on general surgery...99 positions 87 filled 12 unfilled.For total programs 2312 positions...1353 filled...959 unfilled.

The bulk of those unfilled positions came from internal medicine and family care, which I would speculate is the same for allopathic residencies. I must admit I was pleasantly surprised my preferred choices in residencies were filled, Ortho and Uro.

 

[cliquesh]

What did I read wrong? There were 99 gen. surgery spots open. I never said anything about filled/unfilled. And, to give a reference, I included how many people participated in match.

"A total of 1,626 individuals participated in the 2008 Match: 1,353 successfully matched; 273 did not match."

 

[PunkmedGirl]

At first reading your statement it sounded as if your were stating one statistic.

 

[cliquesh]

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Huh? In 2008, there were 99 AOA general surgery spots TOTAL, and there were 1626 applicants in the match but only 1353 matched anything. I wasn't saying all 1626 applied for general surgery. I was just giving people a reference point so they could see what their odds were. In 2008, you had a 6% or greater chance of matching General Surgery (99/1626 = 6%)

(I realize your odds are better since not every applicant applies to every specialty.)

I edited my post. I realized what you were saying.

 

[scpod]

Look at whatever statistics you want but the thing to keep in mind is that of people who go into the AOA match, approximately 90% of them get their FIRST choice.

 

[TeamZissou]

Look at whatever statistics you want but the thing to keep in mind is that of people who go into the AOA match, approximately 90% of them get their FIRST choice.

How does this work if 273 out of 1,626 didn't even match? Thats 16.7% who didn't match so it doesn't make sense that 90% got their first pick. Am I missing something?

 

[scpod]

How does this work if 273 out of 1,626 didn't even match? Thats 16.7% who didn't match so it doesn't make sense that 90% got their first pick. Am I missing something?

Let me rephrase that. Of people who matched, about 90% got their first pick. The actual number is 87% over the last two years where complete data is available (2006 and 2007). Here's a school-by-school result:

http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/108/3/127/TBL1

 

[TeamZissou]

Ahhh ok now THAT makes sense! 90% of those matching got their first choice, not too shabby!

 

[cliquesh]

Do you know if "first choice" is referring to a specialty in general, like internal medicine, or is it referring to a specific residency, like an internal medicine residency at Memorial Hospital in New Jersey. I thought it was the latter, but 90% seems really high for that to be true.

 

[hopefuldoc87]

I always wondered, since the AOA match is before the ACGME match, do you have to just match in general (not necessarily get your first choice, but second or third if that exists) to be dropped from the ACGME match?

Also, since there are a number of graduates who do not match at all on that last link, is that due to them applying for ACGME residencies, or is that because they just didn't match into any program??

 

[UNMorBUST]

Do you know if "first choice" is referring to a specialty in general, like internal medicine, or is it referring to a specific residency, like an internal medicine residency at Memorial Hospital in New Jersey. I thought it was the latter, but 90% seems really high for that to be true.

It is the latter. When people apply for residency, they have a specific field in which they are applying.

 

[DrMidlife]

I always wondered, since the AOA match is before the ACGME match, do you have to just match in general (not necessarily get your first choice, but second or third if that exists) to be dropped from the ACGME match?

Yes.

Also, since there are a number of graduates who do not match at all on that last link, is that due to them applying for ACGME residencies, or is that because they just didn't match into any program??

Both.

 

[scpod]

It is the latter. When people apply for residency, they have a specific field in which they are applying.

No, you list specifically where you you want to go in order. 87% of the people who matched got their first choice residency-- not first choice field.

 

[UNMorBUST]

No, you list specifically where you you want to go in order. 87% of the people who matched got their first choice residency-- not first choice field.

That is what i meant, sorry i was not more clear.

 

[scpod]

That is what i meant, sorry i was not more clear.

Maybe I'm just old and confused sometimes .

 

[UNMorBUST]

Maybe I'm just old and confused sometimes .

Age has nothing to do with confusion, as i am often confused as well.

 

[deleted172531]

No, you list specifically where you you want to go in order. 87% of the people who matched got their first choice residency-- not first choice field.

So I guess most people end up doing exactly what they wanted...That's pretty cool.

 

[rkaz]

But I thought some fields were more 'competitive' than others. I thought not everyone who wants a ROAD specialty gets one. So let's say someone (a DO or MD student) is interested in derm.... as long as that person has reasonably good stats, should I assume that he/she will be able to match in at least ONE derm residency (not necessarily his/her first pick in residency site, but just in the specialty as a whole)?

I just wanted to clarify this... as from this thread, it seems that you can pretty much get your specialty of choice, though 13% of DO students don't necessarily get their first pick in location/hospital. I had previously thought that ROAD specialties were not really an option if your stats are less than in the top of your class.

Obviously there is some self-selection here, as I'd assume that someone in the lower fourth of his/her class wouldn't bother applying to a ROAD program. But if someone's an average student, I wonder if he/she can get into a competitive specialty (in this case, I guess we are using the example of derm here) if he/she was willing to apply to ANY derm program... such as in the midwest, etc. (I'm not sure about the whole no-pay thing though, as with interest from loans accruing, that wouldn't be a nice position to be in. Plus, we all deserve to be paid for our work.)

 

[scpod]

But I thought some fields were more 'competitive' than others. I thought not everyone who wants a ROAD specialty gets one. So let's say someone (a DO or MD student) is interested in derm.... as long as that person has reasonably good stats, should I assume that he/she will be able to match in at least ONE derm residency (not necessarily his/her first pick in residency site, but just in the specialty as a whole)?

No, you can't assume that. A lot of people who want derm wiil never get it at all. In any case, you don't match into derm in your first year. You have to do a traditional rotating internship and try to match into it the next year. Some people will come to realize this when their board scores are lower than average. Others will realize it when they don't get any interviews. Some people never learn and keep trying...

 

[rkaz]

Oh ok. I updated my last message before seeing your post. So I guess the self-selection thing does apply here, as if you know your stats aren't stellar you probably wouldn't bother applying.

 

[rkaz]

So if someone is interested in a competitive specialty, would it make more sense for that person to apply to AOA residencies? Like if you happened to be interested in derm, would you have more chance matching into the field by going the AOA route? I am assuming so, but just wanted to hear further on this. Probably the AOA residencies may not have the same 'prestige' as the ACGME residencies, but this may at least open up the door for DO students to match into the competitive fields. Would others agree?

(I will likely go into primary care, so I'm just asking out of curiousity... but it's nice to keep one's options open.)

 

[scpod]

Oh ok. I updated my last message before seeing your post. So I guess the self-selection thing does apply here, as if you know your stats aren't stellar you probably wouldn't bother applying.

That's basically it, unless you know someone high up very well. Case in point, my attending surgeon this rotation got an IM residency spot at Yale without ever interviewing because his cousin was the Program Director. He spent that year interviewing for surgery spots and got one.

 

[scpod]

....Like if you happened to be interested in derm, would you have more chance matching into the field by going the AOA route?....

Unless you're the first or second person in your entire class, then that's probably so.

 

[rkaz]

Unless you're the first or second person in your entire class, then that's probably so.

Because the first or second person in the entire class would have a great chance matching into ACGME derm residencies... I assume? While someone else slightly lower in rank (but still a great student) may have a shot if he/she applied to AOA derm residencies instead? This is what I figured you meant, but just wanted to make sure I understood.

 

[scpod]

That's the idea.