Competitiveness of DO admission in recent years...

[EMDO2018]

I agree. I told one of my friends that the other day. The whole process of becoming a physician is really just a war of attrition.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[rainbow girl]

I agree. I told one of my friends that the other day. The whole process is really just a war of attrition.

I once told my friends that I admire the doctors because of the patience, determination and effort they put on to pursue medicine. Yes, it can be a warof attrition, but looking from another way, it is a mean to weed out those lacking passion, those with parental pressure or those who do it for the money

 

[XFireMedic]

You don't take the MCAT to be fit to be a physician, you just have to do a bunch of bullcrap and the attrition of all this bullcrap wears on the applicant until only a seriously dedicated matriculating class remains. I can't even find the will to finish some of my "why do you really want to attend X" secondary essays. I'm at the breaking point.

I've been saying the same thing. Medical school admissions doesn't necessarily take the best and brightest so much as the ones who are willing to really work for it.

On another note, I have stats that would have been competitive for some of my IS MD programs but I went DO because it was where I felt the most comfortable. I'm not going to be trying to match a Top10 competitive program because that's not where my interests lie, so I'm not overly concerned about the potential DO bias that may exist. In my area, I work with DOs and MDs in the same settings and there are no practice differences that I see, so my biggest concern was finding the school that is the best fit for me.

 

[hallowmann]

If you look at AACOM data, the trends are hardly upward at all for the past few years. In 2010 the entering DO cohort had 3.36/3.57 and 26.9 mcat. In 2012 it was 3.37/3.59 and 26.85 mcat.

Compare that with MD programs for which the 2010 cohort had 3.61/3.75 and 31.1 mcat, and the 2012 cohort had 3.63/3.75 and 31.2 mcat.

Where are you getting your stats from? The DO matriculants of 2010 had averages of 3.41/3.49/26.48 and those of 2012 had 3.43/3.51/26.85.

Based on AACOM stat files, here is what I compiled:

(cGPA/sGPA/MCAT)

2013:
Applicants: 3.44/3.34/25.90
Matriculants: (projected by me) ~3.51/3.43/27+

2012:
Applicants: 3.44/3.34/25.73
Matriculants: 3.51/3.43/26.85

2011:
Applicants: 3.41/3.26/25.66
Matriculants: 3.50/3.43/26.51

2010:
Applicants: 3.43/3.32/25.63
Matriculants: 3.49/3.41/26.48

2009:
Applicants: 3.42/3.31/25.50
Matriculants: 3.49/3.41/26.19

2008:
Applicants: ???
Matriculants: ~3.47/~3.36/26.12

There has been a clear and consistent increase (albeit small) in the average numbers for both matriculants and applicants (regardless of the numerous new schools opening). This is also the case on the MD side.

You are correct. Medical schools, however, can become oversaturated, if we end up with more graduates than we can place in residencies. This is a very real possibility if schools keep opening at their current pace.

We are about another 1000-2000 students (without residency increase) shy of US grad saturation in all residencies (MD & DO). Not super small, but certainly much smaller than it was a few years ago. If class sizes and schools keep opening, we'll see what happens...

 

[koan]

Where are you getting your stats from? The DO matriculants of 2010 had averages of 3.41/3.49/26.48 and those of 2012 had 3.43/3.51/26.85.

http://www.aacom.org/data/applicantsmatriculants/Documents/2012-Applicant-Matriculant-Report.pdf

Regardless, as you noted there is an extremely small upward trend over the past five years. I think the tone of this thread is a bit hysterical if you compare it to the data. It's not like 5 years ago you could slide in with a 20 MCAT and it's also not like every school will require a 30 MCAT this year. The landscape has changed a bit with the new schools, but an applicant with 3.4/26 should be just as competitive now as they've ever been.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

http://www.aacom.org/data/applicantsmatriculants/Documents/2012-Applicant-Matriculant-Report.pdf

Regardless, as you noted there is an extremely small upward trend over the past five years. I think the tone of this thread is a bit hysterical if you compare it to the data. It's not like 5 years ago you could slide in with a 20 MCAT and it's also not like every school will require a 30 MCAT this year. The landscape has changed a bit with the new schools, but an applicant with 3.4/26 should be just as competitive now as they've ever been.

I get what you are saying, but in 2008 I called a school that just open (you should be able to figure out which school) and they told me I should be competitive with 3.3 c/sGPA and 23 MCAT. They were right because I went back looking at that school specific thread for 2008 and I saw many applicants were getting in with these stats ... Now the same school has average stats of 3.5 c/sGPA and 26+ MCAT. That leads me to think that it is getting a whole lot more competitive than 5 years ago.

 

[Haxx]

I get what your are saying, but in 2008 I called a school that just open (you should be able to figure out which school) and they told me I should be competitive with 3.3 c/sGPA and 23 MCAT. They were right because I went back looking at that school specific thread for 2008 and I saw many applicants were getting in with these stats ... Now the same school has average stats of 3.5 c/sGPA and 26+ MCAT. That leads me to think that it is getting a whole lot more competitive than 5 years ago.

3.7 cGPA 3.5sGPA 29 MCAT got me accepted there this year...

 

[StudyShy]

I once told my friends that I admire the doctors because of the patience, determination and effort they put on to pursue medicine. Yes, it can be a warof attrition, but looking from another way, it is a mean to weed out those lacking passion, those with parental pressure or those who do it for the money

Or those that do not have enough money....

 

[user3]

http://www.aacom.org/data/applicantsmatriculants/Documents/2012-Applicant-Matriculant-Report.pdf

Regardless, as you noted there is an extremely small upward trend over the past five years. I think the tone of this thread is a bit hysterical if you compare it to the data. It's not like 5 years ago you could slide in with a 20 MCAT and it's also not like every school will require a 30 MCAT this year. The landscape has changed a bit with the new schools, but an applicant with 3.4/26 should be just as competitive now as they've ever been.

+1

FWIW, here are some examples:

3.18/3.22/27: THIRTEEN ii's, 3 acceptances so far
3.13/2.90/27: 4 ii's, 2 acceptances so far
2.9/2.7/27: accepted LUCOM
3.25/3.2/26: 5 interviews, 1 acceptance so far (ACOM)
3.36/3.0/25: accepted ACOM
3.43/24: accepted WVSOM, ii LECOM-SH
3.4/3.1/24: 2 ii's
3.37/3.0/24: accepted LMU
3.8/3.9/23: 6 ii, 4 acceptances (OU, LMU, LUCOM, ACOM)
3.56/3.70/23: 5 interviews, 2 acceptances (PCOM-Ga, LUCOM)
3.67/3.36/23: 5 interviews, 1 acceptance so far (WVSOM)
3.6/3.3/23: accepted LUCOM
3.84/3.74/22: 2 ii's, 1 acceptance so far
3.6/3.7/22: ii MUCOM
3.3/22: accepted WVSOM, interview at LUCOM
3.7/3.5/21: accepted WVSOM (non-urm from NJ)

The KEY is applying to the right schools (and broadly)!!! As you can see, most UD's have gotten love from schools like ACOM, LMU, WVSOM, LUCOM, etc while being shut out of schools like CCOM, COMP, and Touro-CA. UD's who aim too high or apply too narrowly put themselves at serious risk for becoming re-applicants.

 

[hallowmann]

http://www.aacom.org/data/applicantsmatriculants/Documents/2012-Applicant-Matriculant-Report.pdf

Regardless, as you noted there is an extremely small upward trend over the past five years. I think the tone of this thread is a bit hysterical if you compare it to the data. It's not like 5 years ago you could slide in with a 20 MCAT and it's also not like every school will require a 30 MCAT this year. The landscape has changed a bit with the new schools, but an applicant with 3.4/26 should be just as competitive now as they've ever been.

Yeah, I completely agree. There definitely has been an increase, but it is small. Its not something that could change drastically overnight, but say 15-20 years down the road you really see the difference.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Don't forget that AACOMAS allows for grade replacement while MD doesn't. You can fix a low GPA for DO schools much more easily than for an MD.

 

[edgerock24]

I love user3's posts. Seriously, they're so money. Doesn't matter how low an MCAT is, he's got proof somebody with that score got into med school. Low GPA? No problem. user3's got your back. Pure gold. Love it. Pre-Allo could use someone like him to mess with their heads.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

I love user3's posts. Seriously, they're so money. Doesn't matter how low an MCAT is, he's got proof somebody with that score got into med school. Low GPA? No problem. user3's got your back. Pure gold. Love it. Pre-Allo could use someone like him to mess with their heads.

Pre-Allo needs some holy water. They've sold their souls to the Gunner God...it's blasphemy to show them the reality that not everyone with a 3.5/30 can still make it and can still be a competent physician.

 

[medp63]

I had wondered if competitiveness has gone down since I know a few people this year that have gotten into DO medical school with terrible stats. One with a 22 mcat and 3 verbal reasoning(English first language, no urm or special training, etc.). It makes me wonder how low they are going with acceptances.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I had wondered if competitiveness has gone down since I know a few people this year that have gotten into DO medical school with terrible stats. One with a 22 mcat and 3 verbal reasoning(English first language, no urm or special training, etc.). It makes me wonder how low they are going with acceptances.

Which school take a 3 in VR? The lowest VR score that I have seen in SDN with an acceptance was a 5... Never even seen a 4 let alone a 3.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I had wondered if competitiveness has gone down since I know a few people this year that have gotten into DO medical school with terrible stats. One with a 22 mcat and 3 verbal reasoning(English first language, no urm or special training, etc.). It makes me wonder how low they are going with acceptances.

.......

 

[MedWonk]

Which school take a 3 in VR? The lowest VR score that I have seen in SDN with an acceptance was a 5... Never even seen a 4 let alone a 3.

Probably a new school looking to just fill their class. Though I imagine that person had a decent explanation to back up the 3, like English not their first language. A school willing to accept a 3 is still a bit disconcerting, though.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Probably a new school looking to just fill their class. Though I imagine that person had a decent explanation to back up the 3, like English not their first language. A school willing to accept a 3 is still a bit disconcerting, though.

But the poster said English is the first language of that applicant. Therefore, I would like to know what explanation was given by that person to explain that VR deficiency. Actually, I personally know some whose English is her primary language and score a 1 in VR.

 

[MedWonk]

But the poster said English is the first language of that applicant. Therefore, I would like to know what explanation was given by that person to explain that VR deficiency. Actually, I personally know some whose English is her primary language and score a 1 in VR.

So, it might just be bull****. DOs have lower average stats, but let's be real. A DO school still wants its students to be able to handle the work, learn the material, ideally do well and graduate with enough competence to be an intern anywhere. They won't take anyone just because.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

So, it might just be bullcrap. DOs have lower average stats, but let's be real. A DO school still wants its students to be able to handle the work, learn the material, ideally do well and graduate with enough competence to be an intern anywhere. They won't take anyone just because.

I understand that. But the question is: Two applicants with these MCAT scores... applicant 1: 6PS/11VR/8BS and applicant 2: 10PS/5VR/10BS. Which applicant is more likely to succeed in med school and pass the board? I have seen many in SDN (DO forum) who still secure multiple acceptances with bad science scores but great VR score while others with good science scores but bad VR score had a tough time securing an acceptance.

 

[MedWonk]

I understand that. But the question is: Two applicants with these MCAT scores... applicant 1: 6PS/11VR/8BS and applicant 2: 10PS/5VR/10BS. Which applicant is more likely to succeed in med school and pass the board? I have seen many in SDN (DO forum) who still secure multiple acceptances with bad science scores but great VR score while others with good science scores but bad VR score had a tough time securing an acceptance.

I don't know. I'm not sure how much correlation the MCAT has with board scores aside from proving a minimum level of competence to have the potential to do well on the boards. Personally, I like the second set of MCAT scores better, but they both look fugly to me. The second one could just be someone who isn't well-read or ESL. The first one would seem to raise concern they don't have a minimum level of competence in the sciences to do well in med school. But then again, I'm not an adcom, so I have no idea what it is about VR specifically that would give it more apparent weight over the science sections.

 

[costales]

I'm waiting for a post that says they know a few people this year who have gotten in DO school with a 1.5 GPA and 15 MCAT - and with multiple felony convictions!! But it's 100% true because it's on the Internet.

 

[medp63]

I'm waiting for a post that says they know a few people this year who have gotten in DO school with a 1.5 GPA and 15 MCAT - and with multiple felony convictions!! But it's 100% true because it's on the Internet.

I don't know about those other things but what I posted is a true account. Someone did get accepted at a DO school this year with a 3 verbal, I know them personally. You can choose to believe it or not. It really doesn't matter.

 

[costales]

Name the school, please.

 

[guylewis]

Name the school, please.

Yes, please name the school! If this is real, I would like all of SDN to shame this school. I would like for it to forever be in the annals of SDN that this place was so desperate for students that they accepted a 3 on the VR. no self respecting applicant should ever apply here

 

[user3]

Name the school, please.

Yes, please name the school! If this is real, I would like all of SDN to shame this school. I would like for it to forever be in the annals of SDN that this place was so desperate for students that they accepted a 3 on the VR. no self respecting applicant should ever apply here

judging by their post history, it looks like either WCU or ACOM

 

[CSqueed]

I don't know about those other things but what I posted is a true account. Someone did get accepted at a DO school this year with a 3 verbal, I know them personally. You can choose to believe it or not. It really doesn't matter.

Haha, I wouldn't be surprised. I know a dude who got in with a 4 in VR with ESL. One of the dumbest people I know and used ESL as his advantage. Every step of the way to his acceptance was a complete joke to him and he was basically mocking the whole process. Hint: It was one of the newer schools.

 

[rainbow girl]

Haha, I wouldn't be surprised. I know a dude who got in with a 4 in VR with ESL. One of the dumbest people I know and used ESL as his advantage. Every step of the way to his acceptance was a complete joke to him and he was basically mocking the whole process. Hint: It was one of the newer schools.

Lol. I should have used ESL as my advantage too. Just kidding.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Haha, I wouldn't be surprised. I know a dude who got in with a 4 in VR with ESL. One of the dumbest people I know and used ESL as his advantage. Every step of the way to his acceptance was a complete joke to him and he was basically mocking the whole process. Hint: It was one of the newer schools.

The dumbest people you know got accepted to medical school! I guess your circle is full with Albert Einstein.

 

[CSqueed]

The dumbest people you know got accepted to medical school! I guess your circle is full with Albert Einstein.

I get your literal gesture, but medical school isn't difficult/prestigious to get into with DO's and Caribbean schools.

 

[Beth_W737]

Do is much more competitive than Carribean. Our DO school has roughly equal stats to our allo schools and more apps coming in, we had 5000 apps for 162 spots. We also have people come with 40 MCATs and great GPAs who could easily go MD but chose to go to our school

 

[costales]

Haha, I wouldn't be surprised. I know a dude who got in with a 4 in VR with ESL. One of the dumbest people I know and used ESL as his advantage.

Oh, another Internet story about dumb people in DO schools.

 

[GUH]

Kind of nice to see what the numbers really say in spite of all the whining and moaning on SDN about the new DO schools and expanded class sizes and how they're lowering standards.

 

[guylewis]

I get your literal gesture, but medical school isn't difficult/prestigious to get into with DO's and Caribbean schools.

SHOTS FIRED!!

 

[ninjaman22]

I know of a guy who got into Harvard with a 5 in VR!

 

[CSqueed]

Woah woah woah guys! Aren't DO schools supposed to be more holistic instead of number hungry elitists?? They obviously saw something in those people aside from their reading comprehension skills being equal to that of 14 year olds.

 

[hallowmann]

Unless they applied ESL, then I doubt they got in with a 3 in verbal (or even a 4). That said, its possible if the person, or their mommy or daddy, had connections with the school. Connections make the world go round, and it wasn't too long ago that I remember a scandal with a FL MD school that accepted a student with no MCAT and an incomplete app because they were close with either the president or governor or something. I don't remember it too well, but I think the adcom recommended rejecting the person, then the president changed the decision to accept.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

Connections make the world go round, and it wasn't too long ago that I remember a scandal with a FL MD school that accepted a student with no MCAT and an incomplete app because they were close with either the president or governor or something. I don't remember it too well, but I think the adcom recommended rejecting the person, then the president changed the decision to accept.

http://www.alligator.org/news/uf_administration/article_e4d9f4f9-a4a8-55de-ae3d-b5389a75c36e.html

Posted:Tuesday, May 27, 2008 12:00 am

Dr. Bruce Kone was removed from his position as dean of UF's College of Medicine late Thursday afternoon, more than a month after his controversial decision to overrule a medical school admissions committee was made public.
...
On April 4, Kone met with UF officials to discuss his decision to admit Benjamin Mendelsohn, the son of a wealthy Republican contributor who had not taken the MCAT.

 

[user3]

Unless they applied ESL, then I doubt they got in with a 3 in verbal (or even a 4). That said, its possible if the person, or their mommy or daddy, had connections with the school. Connections make the world go round, and it wasn't too long ago that I remember a scandal with a FL MD school that accepted a student with no MCAT and an incomplete app because they were close with either the president or governor or something. I don't remember it too well, but I think the adcom recommended rejecting the person, then the president changed the decision to accept.

I believe this person. Some schools just are not very competitive, or are regionally biased and choose from a small applicant pool. 3 vr acceptances at one of these schools would not surprise me.

 

[costales]

I believe this person. Some schools just are not very competitive, or are regionally biased and choose from a small applicant pool. 3 vr acceptances at one of these schools would not surprise me.

So you're going to add that as a data point to your database?

 

[TXKnight]

So you're going to add that as a data point to your database?

Lol....you doubt it?

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Kind of nice to see what the numbers really say in spite of all the whining and moaning on SDN about the new DO schools and expanded class sizes and how they're lowering standards.

It will be like pod school in 4-5 years with the rapid expansion of DO schools. 5 years ago KYCOM and WVSOM average MCAT were 21-22, so I am sure they were accepting a lot applicants in the 10s.

 

[GUH]

It will be like pod school in 4-5 years with the rapid expansion of DO schools. 5 years ago KYCOM and WVSOM average MCAT were 21-22, so I am sure they were accepting a lot applicants in the 10s.

Have the numbers gone up or down in the past five years for those programs?

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Have the numbers gone up or down in the past five years for those programs?

They have gone up. I think KYCOM average MCAT is 24 and WVSOM is 25. I was saying with the expansion they might go back down again.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

They have gone up. I think KYCOM average MCAT is 24 and WVSOM is 25. I was saying with the expansion they might go back down again.

There are a lot of mights.
Will the economy get better and thus less applicants?
Will ACA or other future policies make the career unfavorable to applicants?
Will Osteopathic Medicine obtain name brand recognition and thus see continued pre-MDs moving into the application pool?
Etc.
There's a lot of factors that might influence the applicant pool in the next 5 years.

 

[user3]

FWIW...someone on here has 3 interviews and an acceptance this year with 3.3/22 (indiarn) and another person has 2 ii's with 3.7/22 (hvilledoc)

 

[CSqueed]

FWIW...someone on here has 3 interviews and an acceptance this year with 3.3/22 (indiarn) and another person has 2 ii's with 3.7/22 (hvilledoc)

Lots of people in the DO threads don't want to face the fact that mediocre college students can practice medicine.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Lots of people in the DO threads don't want to face the fact that mediocre college students can practice medicine.

Lol... I would say average college student... I would not go as far as saying mediocre because it might be difficult for a mediocre college student to do well in these med school prereqs and get 26+ MCAT.

 

[CSqueed]

Lol... I would say average college student... I would not go as far as saying mediocre because it might be difficult for a mediocre college student to do well in these med school prereqs and get 26+ MCAT.

I'll settle for mediocre SCIENCE student, considering all they pretty much need is a 3.2-3.3 for ONE acceptance and that is with a bunch of retakes.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Lol... I would say average college student... I would not go as far as saying mediocre because it might be difficult for a mediocre college student to do well in these med school prereqs and get 26+ MCAT.

Average college student? Where did you guys go? Harvard? I went to a very respectable university and I'd say getting a 3.3+/26+ in science would have been difficult for most people in my college, and among science students, I'd say about 1/3 could get that. Getting in with that GPA/MCAT is nothing to be embarrassed or average about you.