Competitiveness of DO admission in recent years...

[Postictal Raiden]

fair enough. But competition aside, the much lower tuition, loan interest rates, and lack of Obamacare concerns is certainly nothing to sneeze at.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on the tuition and to some extent on the loan rates (because there has been a period when interests rates were double digits). In regards, to the ACA and what type of financial and bureaucratic challenges it may bring about, this is a whole different level of speculations.

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[BestDoctorEver]

Despite having some phantom nostalgia for the "good old days", I'm thankful to be entering the medical profession in our era.

Really! It's all doom and gloom these days...

 

[BestDoctorEver]

http://www.com.msu.edu/communique/1989-Feb.pdf page 8

MSUCOM's 1988 entering class
731 applicants
Mean science GPA: 3.12
Average MCAT: 6.9 (I think it was out of 15 back then)

yes, there has been some gpa/mcat inflation over the years but...3.1 and 7/15? wow.

And people are saying these days that someone with a 25 MCAT is not fit to be a physician!

 

[BestDoctorEver]

It seems based on that, DO schools back then may have been around the same competitiveness as mid tier PT schools today.

It is really not that hard to get into PT/OT school... I know someone who could not get into a CC nursing program and decide to go PT and had no problem getting in. I doubt it was that easy to get into DO schools.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

And people are saying these days that someone with a 25 MCAT is not fit to be a physician!

If you read page 8 it puts things into context. There was a decline in applicants and the stats went down from 1983.

I read it earlier this morning but from what I remember there was a .2 drop in GPA and 2 points on the MCAT.

3.3 would have been a respectable GPA. I don't know what a 8/15 on that MCAT means.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

It is really not that hard to get into PT/OT school... I know someone who could not get into a CC nursing program and decide to go PT and had no problem getting in. I doubt it was that easy to get into DO schools.

PT requires a decent GRE score though.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

And people are saying these days that someone with a 25 MCAT is not fit to be a physician!

The scores mean different things and comlex and usmle back then were substantially easier from what I heard.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I'm gong to say this and I know many will disagree.

However, saying that it's harder now to get into medical school than it has ever been, and implying that those who got in few decades ago wouldn't stand chance today, is a little naive in my opinion. Sure, if we look at the numbers alone we may deduce this conclusion, but we should also realize that, back then, these people were among the top of their peers. If they had whatever it takes to beat the odds and matriculate in med schools at times when having an undergrad degree was considered a great achievement, I don't see a reason why they wouldn't be able to do that today.

If the standards today were the ones back then, maybe they could have made it, but certainly that's not the case with everyone. As you say, college education was more rare and paid off more, so that inevitably is going to make the applicant pool smaller and the motivation of having to be the best to get into med school is greatly diminished.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

PT requires a decent GRE score though.

I don't know much about the GRE, but I see some NP schools require 1000. I have no idea what a 1000 in the GRE means...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I don't know much about the GRE, but I see some NP schools require 1000. I have no idea what a 1000 in the GRE means...

Nor do I. that's also an old score. The new ones I understand a bit better like 150/167 is usually ok.

 

[Sean Lee]

Got a 33 on my MCAT!

That should be enough for DOs...

 

[Haxx]

Got a 33 on my MCAT!

That should be enough for DOs...

Did you just get that back? Gratz!

 

[Sean Lee]

Did you just get that back? Gratz!

Yes, and thanks!

 

[notbobtrustme]

I don't know much about the GRE, but I see some NP schools require 1000. I have no idea what a 1000 in the GRE means...

The GRE is a ****ing joke. It's basically the SATs. There is math which includes only up to trigonometry/pre-calc, and there is a vocab section. That's it. I literally studied for it for like 3 weeks by reading a vocab book while taking dumps and scored a 1400.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

The GRE is a ******* joke. It's basically the SATs. There is math which includes only up to trigonometry/pre-calc, and there is a vocab section. That's it. I literally studied for it for like 3 weeks by reading a vocab book while taking dumps and scored a 1400.

Everyone I know has studied about 2 weeks and gets over 1200, so your experience sounds about right.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I wholeheartedly agree with you on the tuition and to some extent on the loan rates (because there has been a period when interests rates were double digits). In regards, to the ACA and what type of financial and bureaucratic challenges it may bring about, this is a whole different level of speculations.

The loans are ridiculous.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

The GRE is a ******* joke. It's basically the SATs. There is math which includes only up to trigonometry/pre-calc, and there is a vocab section. That's it. I literally studied for it for like 3 weeks by reading a vocab book while taking dumps and scored a 1400.

Lol... If the GRE is that easy, I don't get why PA programs are using it for entrance requirement. May they should start using the MCAT like Podiatry schools....

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Lol... If the GRE is that easy, I don't get why PA programs are using it for entrance requirement. May they should start using the MCAT like Podiatry schools....

It's not the hardest test, but it may be able to tell things better than the Mcat. I mean for what it is worth I think that all schools should use a single language standardized score instead of forcing people to take multiple ones.

Regardless, The GRE has a lot of good things about it. Namely that it is offered every day and that you get your raw scores after the test is done.

 

[orangeman25]

Lol... If the GRE is that easy, I don't get why PA programs are using it for entrance requirement. May they should start using the MCAT like Podiatry schools....

What's the average MCAT for podiatry schools? Didn't even know they used that...

 

[BestDoctorEver]

What's the average MCAT for podiatry schools? Didn't even know they used that...

From what I have seen in the pod forum, I think it is 21-22...

 

[AkGrown84]

From what I have seen in the pod forum, I think it is 21-22...

Agreed^^. This seems to be the average matriculant's MCAT score. I'd hate to see what the average Pod's *applicant* score is......

 

[BestDoctorEver]

It's not the hardest test, but it may be able to tell things better than the Mcat. I mean for what it is worth I think that all schools should use a single language standardized score instead of forcing people to take multiple ones.

Regardless, The GRE has a lot of good things about it. Namely that it is offered every day and that you get your raw scores after the test is done.

I am not a fan of the MCAT, but if the GRE has no science sections on it, I am not sure how it would measure applicants better than the MCAT... A previous poster said it looks like the SAT so I don't know if a SAT-like test would be better than the MCAT for potential med students.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I am not a fan of the MCAT, but if the GRE has no science sections on it, I am not sure how it would measure applicants better than the MCAT... A previous poster said it looks like the SAT so I don't know if a SAT-like test would be better than the MCAT for potential med students.

That's the thing though. If we were all bio majors who took the same courses then it would be fine. Hence the aspect of standardization.
The GRE sets the bar lower and more basically. It tests things namely math and verbal comprehension. Not whether or not you've been previously exposed to the principle of X property affecting partial pressure.

It's personally why I hold the verbal section a bit more highly. Because I feel like it is much more informative than other sections which just tell me that a person studied a lot.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Agreed^^. This seems to be the average matriculant's MCAT score. I'd hate to see what the average Pod's *applicant* score is......

And to think, that is what the average for DO schools used to be. Cant imagine what it will be like in 7 years when everyone will need a doctorate degree of some kind to even find work

 

[AkGrown84]

And to think, that is what the average for DO schools used to be. Cant imagine what it will be like in 7 years when everyone will need a doctorate degree of some kind to even find work

Which is why I'm thanking my lucky stars that I applied this last cycle and got in. It's not getting any easier!

 

[Seth Joo]

I'm gong to say this and I know many will disagree.

However, saying that it's harder now to get into medical school than it has ever been, and implying that those who got in few decades ago wouldn't stand chance today, is a little naive in my opinion. Sure, if we look at the numbers alone we may deduce this conclusion, but we should also realize that, back then, these people were among the top of their peers. If they had whatever it takes to beat the odds and matriculate in med schools at times when having an undergrad degree was considered a great achievement, I don't see a reason why they wouldn't be able to do that today.

Its gotten much harder to get into DO school since the last 15 years or so. MD schools have been hard to get into for a very long time but have also gotten harder. I know a lot of people who probably would be at lower tier MD schools if they applied 10 years ago.

 

[Roxas]

From what I have seen in the pod forum, I think it is 21-22...

A friend of mine in his pod interview had a 24 and was told by his interviewers that he had a "very impressive MCAT"

 

[Sean Lee]

I think the most recent AACOMAS stats for DO matriculants is a 26.6 MCAT average.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

A friend of mine in his pod interview had a 24 and was told by his interviewers that he had a "very impressive MCAT"

I guess it might be good score by pod standards, but 24 is NOT an impressive score...

 

[chizledfrmstone]

A friend of mine in his pod interview had a 24 and was told by his interviewers that he had a "very impressive MCAT"

I should have applied and staggered the pod interviews between my DO ones. I would feel like rockstar for a few days.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Lol... If the GRE is that easy, I don't get why PA programs are using it for entrance requirement. May they should start using the MCAT like Podiatry schools....

They dont necessarily use the GRE as the weeding factor. They use the fact that you need like 2000+ hours of clinical experience and essentially some sort of graduate degree (nowadays) to get in. The GRE is just something to check the box, as an MCAT would be significantly more applicable for PA school.

 

[petyr_baelish]

For anyone who is feeling wistful about the numbers their parents would have needed to get into medical school back in the day, consider this: we live in a time where science knowledge has exploded. There is more to know than before, and we get to use that knowledge but it comes at the price of assimilating all that info first.

A good point was mentioned - look at those numbers in context too. Getting an undergrad degree in the 1970s was an accomplishment. Today, it's a box that needs to be checked; not just for admission to medical school but to simply move up on a payroll while you perform the same quality of work as you did for years.

In the future, when elementary school kids are learning pre-calculus because quantum mechanics is a first year university class, they'll think we had it easy.

 

[NontradCA]

I am not a fan of the MCAT, but if the GRE has no science sections on it, I am not sure how it would measure applicants better than the MCAT... A previous poster said it looks like the SAT so I don't know if a SAT-like test would be better than the MCAT for potential med students.

The MCAT is used because it covers a lot of information that you can't cram for, or BS your way through (relatively). USMLE/COMLEX is the same way, only worse. If you've never taken sciences in school before, the learning curve for the MCAT is steep. I think that schools want to make sure you can succeed when there's that much info.

 

[Roxas]

The MCAT is used because it covers a lot of information that you can't cram for, or BS your way through (relatively). USMLE/COMLEX is the same way, only worse. If you've never taken sciences in school before, the learning curve for the MCAT is steep. I think that schools want to make sure you can succeed when there's that much info.

I've spoken to students who say that the MCAT is more critical thinking and application of knowledge, whereas step 1 is is just about knowing the flood of information they throw at you in years 1-2. Basically it is easier to cram and do well on step 1. I could be wrong though, maybe some students who've taken it can comment.

 

[EMDO2018]

The country is getting smarter, that's a good thing. Its getting harder and harder to get a job without endless credentialing, that's a bad thing.

 

[Sean Lee]

The MCAT is used because it covers a lot of information that you can't cram for, or BS your way through (relatively). USMLE/COMLEX is the same way, only worse. If you've never taken sciences in school before, the learning curve for the MCAT is steep. I think that schools want to make sure you can succeed when there's that much info.

I strongly agree, especially when it comes to the BS section. After some basic biology and organic chemistry facts, you really can't do much to study for that section. Only God knows how I got an 11 on this section...

 

[orangeman25]

I've spoken to students who say that the MCAT is more critical thinking and application of knowledge, whereas step 1 is is just about knowing the flood of information they throw at you in years 1-2. Basically it is easier to cram and do well on step 1. I could be wrong though, maybe some students who've taken it can comment.

I've heard similar. That's why you see people do mediocre on the MCAT and then kill step 1 - basically because the tests require different skills. You probably also see people do very well on the MCAT and do mediocre on Step, but I'm willing to bet that this is less common.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I strongly agree, especially when it comes to the BS section. After some basic biology and organic chemistry facts, you really can't do much to study for that section. Only God knows how I got an 11 on this section...

Idk, I feel like the more you study for the BS the better. I know personally when I completed Cell bio after I took my Mcat I reflect and thought I probably would have scored a point higher or two.
But who knows, I feel like it depends a lot on background. I had a fair but relatively limited background save for being able to grasp research well, so I hit a 10. I feel like with physiology and biochem I probably could hit higher.

 

[dyspareunia]

I've heard similar. That's why you see people do mediocre on the MCAT and then kill step 1 - basically because the tests require different skills. You probably also see people do very well on the MCAT and do mediocre on Step, but I'm willing to bet that this is less common.

Highly unlikely. Consider the fact that the average MD matriculant is ~31 MCAT, which equates to ~85th or so percentile of all MCAT takers. Loosely this means that the top 15% of MCAT test takers make up half the med student population. Then consider the fact that half of med students do mediocre or worse on Step 1. Statistically then it is more likely that any given med student did well on the MCAT and then will do mediocre on Step 1. This says nothing about the difficulty or "skill set differences" of the MCAT and Step 1. It's purely statistics.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

For anyone who is feeling wistful about the numbers their parents would have needed to get into medical school back in the day, consider this: we live in a time where science knowledge has exploded. There is more to know than before, and we get to use that knowledge but it comes at the price of assimilating all that info first.

A good point was mentioned - look at those numbers in context too. Getting an undergrad degree in the 1970s was an accomplishment. Today, it's a box that needs to be checked; not just for admission to medical school but to simply move up on a payroll while you perform the same quality of work as you did for years.

In the future, when elementary school kids are learning pre-calculus because quantum mechanics is a first year university class, they'll think we had it easy.

It was never an accomplishment to get an undergraduate degree. The difference is 40 years ago mostly the rich went to school. The thing that the undergraduate degree was, was a sure way to get a job.

 

[Seth Joo]

The MCAT is used because it covers a lot of information that you can't cram for, or BS your way through (relatively). USMLE/COMLEX is the same way, only worse. If you've never taken sciences in school before, the learning curve for the MCAT is steep. I think that schools want to make sure you can succeed when there's that much info.

The MCAT is a predictor of performance on exams such as the USMLE and COMLEX.

 

[touchpause13]

The MCAT is a predictor of performance on exams such as the USMLE and COMLEX.

Slightly

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

It was never an accomplishment to get an undergraduate degree. The difference is 40 years ago mostly the rich went to school. The thing that the undergraduate degree was, was a sure way to get a job.

I think it's an accomplishment in that it can potentially be a very transformative process.

I think a lot of us really hold too strongly to the notion that college was our hoop to medical school. I think I developed enormously in my time and as such I consider it an accomplishment. You should too.

 

[orangeman25]

Highly unlikely. Consider the fact that the average MD matriculant is ~31 MCAT, which equates to ~85th or so percentile of all MCAT takers. Loosely this means that the top 15% of MCAT test takers make up half the med student population. Then consider the fact that half of med students do mediocre or worse on Step 1. Statistically then it is more likely that any given med student did well on the MCAT and then will do mediocre on Step 1. This says nothing about the difficulty or "skill set differences" of the MCAT and Step 1. It's purely statistics.

Little confused about what you are saying. Are you basically saying that you cannot compare MCAT performances to Step 1 performances at all?

 

[polylux]

Slightly

Doing well on the MCAT will more likely give you the opportunity to take the USMLE.

 

[dyspareunia]

Little confused about what you are saying. Are you basically saying that you cannot compare MCAT performances to Step 1 performances at all?

I'm saying that it's statistically much more likely for someone to do well on the MCAT then do mediocre on Step 1 given what I posted above and the fact that someone who does mediocre on the MCAT likely doesn't even get into med school.

 

[touchpause13]

Doing well on the MCAT will more likely give you the opportunity to take the USMLE.

Thanks for that stunning observation. How was your verbal score again?

 

[Mad Jack]

In regards, to the ACA and what type of financial and bureaucratic challenges it may bring about, this is a whole different level of speculations.

Many of the old guard graduated during the times when some specialists could make literally millions in inflation-adjusted income more than current physicians earn over their careers, and in a time when red tape was a fraction of what it is now. They had a totally different world than we do today in many, many ways.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Many of the old guard graduated during the times when some specialists could make literally millions in inflation-adjusted income more than current physicians earn over their careers, and in a time when red tape was a fraction of what it is now. They had a totally different world than we do today in many, many ways.

Do you have a source to supports your statement? All the sources I have come across show that salaries, on average, kept up with inflation.

Take a look at this source, for example http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/11/1/181.full.pdf

 

[orangeman25]

I'm saying that it's statistically much more likely for someone to do well on the MCAT then do mediocre on Step 1 given what I posted above and the fact that someone who does mediocre on the MCAT likely doesn't even get into med school.

Oh okay, gotchya. When I used the word mediocre, I meant mediocre MCAT score in terms of the medical school class. So if a school has an average MCAT of 3o and you scored a 30, I would consider that mediocre in terms of the class profile - although a 30 is a fine score!