- Joined
- Jan 24, 2014
- Messages
- 1
- Reaction score
- 0
Deleted
Last edited:
Compilation of top residency programs
- Thread starter chronicidal
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2004
- Messages
- 30,873
- Reaction score
- 10,063
Not sure why this was bumped, but this list was doomed to failure the second the OP tried to do it for multiple specialties. Too many people weighing in with plugs for their own "best" program that outside of their programs walls perhps has a different rep (i won't call anyone out). Also as the IR advocate hinted at above, many/most of these fields are very subdivided such that a program perhaps is highly regarded for a particular specialty, but might be very low on your list if you plan to sub specialze within a particular subspecialty with that specialty, where other places actually are better regarded. And at some point the big name people matter more than the institution and some of the big name places listed have lost more of these than they've hired in recent years. A place known for say, IM, might not be the place you want to be for GI, and the place known for GI might not have the big name hepatologist, and so on. Which makes saying X is best for IM potentially a farce -- at best a not all encompassing statement for all comers. It might be true if you hope to go into cards, but not GI, etc. Also, as the poster who got a few places added for peds suggested (but is true in every one of these specialties) there is absurd bias toward some of the big name academic centers on this list, many being listed across the board, but some of which are actually more like mid to high average, rather than the "best" in some fields, and really just riding on name recognition drawn from other specialties or undergrad reputation. Most of the less well known gems in most fields not part of mega-academic centers aren't even represented in your list. While I applaud OP for trying to simplify the process, I think you've probably mostly just provided some hollow vindication for med students at big academic centers who would like to think their place is the best, absent any actual data or metrics beyond what premeds may have posited on SDN.
If you are looking at residencies, You really still need to talk to people -- there is no good substitute, and things change in all these fields way too fast -- like baseball, a single "free agent" can make or break a department -- the place that was tops for CV surgery last year might not be this year if their big name guy moved/retired/got promoted out of the OR, or if the PD or chirman changed jobs, etc. The practitioners who are known in the field ACTUALLY might know what the great places, up and comers and falling stars in their fields are and so you are far better off ignoring lists and getting good word of mouth. But if you are trying to put together a master List, I suspect trying to do so for more than the single specialty you are in or researching is unrealistic.
If you are looking at residencies, You really still need to talk to people -- there is no good substitute, and things change in all these fields way too fast -- like baseball, a single "free agent" can make or break a department -- the place that was tops for CV surgery last year might not be this year if their big name guy moved/retired/got promoted out of the OR, or if the PD or chirman changed jobs, etc. The practitioners who are known in the field ACTUALLY might know what the great places, up and comers and falling stars in their fields are and so you are far better off ignoring lists and getting good word of mouth. But if you are trying to put together a master List, I suspect trying to do so for more than the single specialty you are in or researching is unrealistic.
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2008
- Messages
- 190
- Reaction score
- 10
Blah blah blah. Geez l2d still plying your standard response for everything. This is an Internet forum where opinions replace facts - please be a bit tolerant and let people have fun.
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2013
- Messages
- 8
- Reaction score
- 4
For ophthalmology, I believe that Wills should be moved to the top line and MEEI should be moved to the second. Wills, Bascom Palmer and Wilmer have been the perennial top-three on USNWR since they began ranking the programs, with MEEI as a distant fourth if you look at the reputation %:
http://health.usnews.com/best-hospitals/rankings/ophthalmology
In addition, the most current OphthoTimes survey puts Wills in the top three with those same institutions for every category except research, while MEEI is multiple slots below. Both are excellent programs, but Wills was the first ophthalmic hospital, had the first residency program, writes the book that every resident uses to get through clinic, and is a clinical powerhouse with arguably the best overall group of attendings under one roof.
In addition, USC/Doheny no longer exists since Doheny recently severed its ties with USC, so it should likely be removed. I also disagree with the inclusion of UCSF and Utah; both are excellent programs, but they aren't on the same level as the other programs on the list.
http://health.usnews.com/best-hospitals/rankings/ophthalmology
In addition, the most current OphthoTimes survey puts Wills in the top three with those same institutions for every category except research, while MEEI is multiple slots below. Both are excellent programs, but Wills was the first ophthalmic hospital, had the first residency program, writes the book that every resident uses to get through clinic, and is a clinical powerhouse with arguably the best overall group of attendings under one roof.
In addition, USC/Doheny no longer exists since Doheny recently severed its ties with USC, so it should likely be removed. I also disagree with the inclusion of UCSF and Utah; both are excellent programs, but they aren't on the same level as the other programs on the list.
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2008
- Messages
- 830
- Reaction score
- 3
Meh on UCLA and Stanford, both.
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2008
- Messages
- 830
- Reaction score
- 3
Spot. F&cking. On.
At the end of the day, it's not necessarily a bad idea to have a sense of where a program is in the grand scheme of things, but NOTHING trumps getting eyes on a program yourself, and talking candidly with the residents, ESPECIALLY in a field like neurosurgery. 7 years is an awful long time to spend working with d-bags, no matter how highly ranked the program. Additionally, it comes down to personal values: For me, the idea of having a boatload of publications from a program with cache is great, but I'll be damned if I'm going to graduate from a 7-year program and not be a top-notch operator. YMMV.
A program you don't hear much about, but I'm confident you will sometime in the next 5 years, is UT Houston. With Art Day there, I think that program has a lot of potential. The rest of the faculty is superb. They certainly have the volume, rapidly eclipsing Methodist. They do more cranial work than anyone in Houston, and still manage to bang out a metric crap ton of spine.
As for clinical vs. research, while I agree that BNI isn't exactly known as an academic powerhouse, they're nevertheless impressively productive for being essentially an island out in Phoenix. Nader Sanai is really doing a lot to try and emphasize basic science resarch, there, and if Lawton ends up the Chairman there, I think you can be reasonably sure that the landscape will become substantially more academic.
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2014
- Messages
- 3
- Reaction score
- 0
Does anyone know if phoenix is going to have another emergency residency program anytime soon? I just finished my rotation at maricopa medical ctr in phoenix and have to say that the program has really gone downhill over the past few years. The residents appear to be really unhappy with the changes that are going on but nobody will talk openly about what those changes have been. I heard that residents have been fired and others are transferring programs. The program has A LOT of DO's and the word on the street is that the program has become really strict and malignant recently. I want to live in the southwest or west coast but it sounds like the california programs are really competitive. Does anyone else have any experience with maricopa or the university of arizona? How about new mexico or las vegas?
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2010
- Messages
- 72,617
- Reaction score
- 115,657
Best thing to do is ask our wise SDN residents and attendings what they think of X program. Anything else is as useful as reading chicken guts.
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2014
- Messages
- 63,099
- Reaction score
- 154,727
What's a strong bump and how is that different from a weak bump?
But in all seriousness, i feel they're outdated. I think asking residents in the know would be better
What's a strong bump and how is that different from a weak bump?
But in all seriousness, i feel they're outdated. I think asking residents in the know would be better
Would anyone in the know advise as to the top Nsgy, plastics, ENT, and Ortho programs. Please dont flame me!
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2014
- Messages
- 63,099
- Reaction score
- 154,727
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2012
- Messages
- 2,083
- Reaction score
- 4,193
AKA Hospital for the Ruptured and Crippled (no joke)
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,867
- Reaction score
- 8,147
The to ortho haven’t changed much since this thread was started. HSS, Jeff, Harvard, Rush, Iowa, WashU, UCSF etc.
TBF I do t think I’d want to train at any of those place though.
Whats wrong with Barnes?
The neurosurgery programs are more or less the same as previously listed. Ranking neurosurgery programs is stupid for a number of reasons, but given the types of people it attracts, it's inevitable.
If you're really interested in neurosurgery you would do much better to first find out where not to go (there are a few), then talk with your mentors about what kind of programs would be a good fit for you.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,867
- Reaction score
- 8,147
WashU? There’s nothing wrong with it in particular, but you go to a place like that to make connections for fellowship, get into academics, and/or to brag about where you trained for the rest of your life.
Im in private practice in a somewhat rural area. Going to a place like that would offer me no benefit. But it’s a personal thing.
Wouldnt the clinical training at a place like that though make a difference with regards to how you develop skill wise?
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,867
- Reaction score
- 8,147
If we’re talking about orthopedics (which my posts were) you go to residency to learn to operate. So if your going to a place that has fellows in every specialty (those places tend to) and you’re stuck behind one until your chief year I’m not sure how much clinical experience your getting vs a different program.
A
AnatomyGrey12
Not a hard rule obviously but the clinical skills at some of these massive, heavily academic places are often pretty weak.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2013
- Messages
- 1,978
- Reaction score
- 4,685
Yeah, 100% prefer a no name blue collar program over an HSS. I want to operate, not churn out pubs and get really good at peering over shoulders.
Are there good academic programs that also let you have some autonomy in operating or are they basically mutually exclusive?
A
AnatomyGrey12
Of course there are. You have to ask people in the field who know particulars of each program.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,867
- Reaction score
- 8,147
Ask faculty or residents in your program. Or even better rotate at one or two of these programs that interest you. Be aware that on interview day the residents and attendings wil All tell you that everyone is operating on their own on the first day of internship.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2013
- Messages
- 1,978
- Reaction score
- 4,685
Yes, I was talking in extremes here. There are plenty of places with a good balance. You just have to find out by talking to the right people, like they said.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2016
- Messages
- 2,831
- Reaction score
- 9,999
I would disagree, having known people at all those programs mentioned above. How much you get out of a program depends on you and what you put into it. You can get good operative experience everywhere, and a community or less academic program doesn’t guarantee that you’ll get good at operating any more than the academic places. I’ve had both experiences.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2013
- Messages
- 1,978
- Reaction score
- 4,685
How do you go about this in practice? Do you just have to be aggressive in trying to secure cases?
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2016
- Messages
- 2,831
- Reaction score
- 9,999
In a residency program you must do a certain amount of cases to graduate. They must provide the experience. If there are fellows involved then fellow involvement should be different than resident involvement. For example in academic places like Houston and HSS there are multiple rooms running- the fellow on the service is in one room, the resident in the other.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2013
- Messages
- 1,978
- Reaction score
- 4,685
That is true, and I don't know their case numbers, but at a place like JPS, it would seem like you would get to do and have more involvement in significantly more cases compared to some of the big name places. I feel like all things equal, coming from JPS, you would come out better prepared to practice independently if that was one's aim.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,867
- Reaction score
- 8,147
that’s fair and you probably have more insight to this than I do.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2016
- Messages
- 2,831
- Reaction score
- 9,999
I’ve seen no difference in graduates of either type of program.
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2010
- Messages
- 3,088
- Reaction score
- 9,999
As someone currently Finishing at a big academic program with a lot of fellows, I’ll add a few thoughts on this:
1) fellows don’t impact your experience one iota until pgy4-5. If it’s a case for a 3 or lower, the fellow isn’t remotely interested in doing it. Hell, the senior residents probably aren’t interested in doing it. For most of your training, fellows aren’t even in the same league and can only help.
2) at the pgy4-5 level there is potential for conflict since you’re closer in level. How this plays out depends on how the program is structured, what the fellows do, and the general culture.
3) much depends on whether cases are single or multi- operator cases. Multi operator cases will often have fellows holding hook for the chief. Single operator cases have potential for issues, but top programs tend to get top fellows who don’t need extra practice.
4) once you reach the point of knowing you can do a case completely by yourself, you don’t care as much who does what move because you care more about learning new things rather than getting reps of something you already know how to do. This is where I find myself most of the time now. I know how to do all the things in my specialty now that you can get credentialed for without a fellowship. Now it’s about learning and seeing as much weird stuff as I can. It’s become more about doing 20 different things 5 times each rather than 5 things 20 times each. Being at a big referral center means getting these rare complex cases.
5) you can only be in one place at one time. As the chief I make the schedule and my inability to be two places at once is far more limiting than the presence of fellows. Every day this week I’m missing out on great cases because I’ve given myself other great cases going on simultaneously. If I cared about being without a fellow, I can easily schedule myself accordingly.
6) fellows are often more interested in very specific things you can’t get credentialed for without a fellowship. For us those are things like microvascular recon, advanced skull base, etc. For residents that want to learn those things, they simply have to make it a priority. We have chiefs going into micro fellowships who intentionally gave themselves those rotations late in their Chief year so they can get more micro time as our current fellows become proficient and start learning how to teach that skill themselves since they’re going into academic jobs soon too.
I could go on but you get the idea. The idea that fellows compromise training is largely a myth that simply hasn’t been an issue for me or my classmates. I can see how there’s potential for conflict and it’s worth asking about when interviewing a potential program, but overall our fellows have been a huge net positive on my own experience.
1) fellows don’t impact your experience one iota until pgy4-5. If it’s a case for a 3 or lower, the fellow isn’t remotely interested in doing it. Hell, the senior residents probably aren’t interested in doing it. For most of your training, fellows aren’t even in the same league and can only help.
2) at the pgy4-5 level there is potential for conflict since you’re closer in level. How this plays out depends on how the program is structured, what the fellows do, and the general culture.
3) much depends on whether cases are single or multi- operator cases. Multi operator cases will often have fellows holding hook for the chief. Single operator cases have potential for issues, but top programs tend to get top fellows who don’t need extra practice.
4) once you reach the point of knowing you can do a case completely by yourself, you don’t care as much who does what move because you care more about learning new things rather than getting reps of something you already know how to do. This is where I find myself most of the time now. I know how to do all the things in my specialty now that you can get credentialed for without a fellowship. Now it’s about learning and seeing as much weird stuff as I can. It’s become more about doing 20 different things 5 times each rather than 5 things 20 times each. Being at a big referral center means getting these rare complex cases.
5) you can only be in one place at one time. As the chief I make the schedule and my inability to be two places at once is far more limiting than the presence of fellows. Every day this week I’m missing out on great cases because I’ve given myself other great cases going on simultaneously. If I cared about being without a fellow, I can easily schedule myself accordingly.
6) fellows are often more interested in very specific things you can’t get credentialed for without a fellowship. For us those are things like microvascular recon, advanced skull base, etc. For residents that want to learn those things, they simply have to make it a priority. We have chiefs going into micro fellowships who intentionally gave themselves those rotations late in their Chief year so they can get more micro time as our current fellows become proficient and start learning how to teach that skill themselves since they’re going into academic jobs soon too.
I could go on but you get the idea. The idea that fellows compromise training is largely a myth that simply hasn’t been an issue for me or my classmates. I can see how there’s potential for conflict and it’s worth asking about when interviewing a potential program, but overall our fellows have been a huge net positive on my own experience.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2016
- Messages
- 903
- Reaction score
- 995
Reputations of academic programs are very slow to change.
