Completely idiotic things admin are capable of

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So I've used this, and the relevant OSHA documents (https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25506).
I'm just curious as to where the wording "patient care area" came from. It's like all the admins had a meeting one day and decided to use that lingo. It's literally not in any federal document anywhere.
Allow me to continue jousting windmills.
I'm convinced that drinks are the "broken windows" theory of keeping nurses in line. If you can convince your staff to ignore basic biological needs for completely arbitrary reasons then they'll follow all the other rules as well.

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Sorry if I missed this earlier. Where are you?

Europe

I did exactly this. Without batting an eyelash the administrators said "oh did we say Joint Commission? We we meant OSHA." I was ready for this and printed them the OSHA opinion on this that at long as reasonable attempts are made to prevent blood contamination, all workers should have access to hydration at their work site. They furrowed their brows and told me that they'd get back to me.

The next day they told me it was an infection control hospital policy. So fast forward a few months and I find infection control wandering by and they go "we have no such policy. You can defintiely drink in the ER. Just place some tape on the ground to identify exactly where you cant bring blood because you want water". I literally grabbed this woman and ran to the administrators who just frowned at me and said "oh this again. We told you. Its Joint Commission rules." "No its not <hands paper again>" "We mean OSHA" "again no <second paper>" "Well infection..." "IC Lady: no its not this is all you guys" The temporal artery on the two admins were both about to blow. they just decided to say that they will think about it. Its been two months. They hav literally cracked down MORE on water since then, not less.

So make them an offer they can't refuse .

Either come in dehydrated and collapse during shift - that should get their attention and make the staff rebellious or simply go dark side on them : leverage , if you don't have any - make it.

Some people are sadists - you cannot reason with them and the only language they understand is a good old fashion facial ecchymosis. I know that sounds extreme but it's simply survival either they destroy your life or you destroy theirs.
 
Lets see. Just recently:

The no water in the ED rule became a no personal property at all in the ED because they were suspicious we might be hiding water in our jackets.

In order to prevent any drinking in the ED they moved the water to the pyxis room, which is locked in a way that physicians cant even enter the room. So not only can WE not get water without a nurse letting us in, but only nurses can get patients water. (to be fair, this occurred a long time ago)

They decided to remove all of the guaiac solution from the ED despite us (6 months ago) going through extensive and annoying color vision checks to prove we were allowed to do guaiac in the ED. So we had no stocks of it. So we went to the back stock room to see if there were any more back there and they CLEARED OUT THE BACK STOCK ROOM stating that if we need any extra equipment or supplies that arent kept in the pyxis room (again, which only nurses can get into) we should send a courrier down to the basement to find it. This obviously goes extremely poorly nearly 100% of the time, so recently we have had to go down ourselves for it (we like to send the administrator themself down when we can to show them how dumb it is).

Lube is now a controlled substance and needs a pyxis order. This includes taking all the lube out of the rescusitation bays, a real pain in the ass for people like me who like to lube their ET tubes.

An ER director at a nearby hospital got fired because they had no ER physicians seeing the psych ER patients despite it being under the ER's umbrella and eventually one with a blatantly obvious medical complaint went back to psych ED and croaked. Now admittedly this was sort of a big deal, but the level of f*** up here wasnt "bad stuff happens" it was "there was no attempt to identify if this guy had any medical complaints and he clearly did". So the response from our ED director was a bit.... heavy handed. We now had to see and fully evaluate, with a full written note, every single psych patient who arrives including medication refills and blatantly obvious "these guys have no medical issues." As we simply did not have a staff to do this without our efficiency grinding to a halt, we asked them to rethink the policy or hire a PA or something to assist with this. Their decision instead was to pull a provider from the regular staffing and place them in a side room where their only job was to watch the intoxicated patients (not joking. Not evaluate them. Not write a note on them. Literally baby sit them) and be available at all times to see every psych patient and they were not allowed to see regular patients during this time, and the lost staffing was not replaced, the main ED just had to bare the load of one less provider than normal during day time hours.

Sunday is a relatively slow day for us as far as ill patients go and nearly all of our patient load is nonsense 4/5 ESIs. Because the ill patient load is low the administration long ago decided to not have the urgent care open that day and just let us bear the brunt. Still the sheer number of nonsense 4/5 ESIs is crazy at times, so we got a bit spoiled and asked that it be open so that our sundays can be a breeze. The administration listened (!!) and actually hired an additional PA just so they could flex the PA schedule around and staff the urgent care area on sundays. But the administration did not hire any new nurses nor did they change the nursing assignments so the urgent care center has never had a nurse available. So far 100% of sundays the PA has come in, found no nurse available to work the urgent care area, found nursing management was unwilling to flex a nurse to them, and then the PA went home and the second PA who was to come in later was told not to come in as "the urgent care area is closed today". Collective facepalms have ensued from that lack of thinking through an idea completely. Im sure they will soon complain back to the physician staff how we mislead them and tricked them into hiring a new PA that never gets used.

Bring Perrier.
 
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Ok so how do you go 'above admin' who is their daddy and what do they do?


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I did exactly this. Without batting an eyelash the administrators said "oh did we say Joint Commission? We we meant OSHA." I was ready for this and printed them the OSHA opinion on this that at long as reasonable attempts are made to prevent blood contamination, all workers should have access to hydration at their work site. They furrowed their brows and told me that they'd get back to me.

The next day they told me it was an infection control hospital policy. So fast forward a few months and I find infection control wandering by and they go "we have no such policy. You can defintiely drink in the ER. Just place some tape on the ground to identify exactly where you cant bring blood because you want water". I literally grabbed this woman and ran to the administrators who just frowned at me and said "oh this again. We told you. Its Joint Commission rules." "No its not <hands paper again>" "We mean OSHA" "again no <second paper>" "Well infection..." "IC Lady: no its not this is all you guys" The temporal artery on the two admins were both about to blow. they just decided to say that they will think about it. Its been two months. They hav literally cracked down MORE on water since then, not less.

This is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. Why don't you ask who their bosses are to complain a level up? If that doesn't work, say you are being interviewed by the local paper about why healthcare costs are out of control and you have a prime example of wasted administrator salaries whose only job is to make up non-sensical rules to make doctors' lives harder.


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Going to the paper is bar none career suicide. At some point it needs to be done, but only if you never want to work in that city again. Anywhere. And possibly not in the state.
Admin runs credentials. Sure, they can't fire you for it, but they can make your life such hell that you want to quit. Or, they find a bunch of other silly things that let them start making their paper trail. I'm talking about people watching you enter every room and documenting your foam in foam out. People monitoring your computer usage at work.
They get away with it because they can. Fight all you want, but realize that without a sympathetic admin, you're going to lose. Even if you "win".
 
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Going to the paper is bar none career suicide. At some point it needs to be done, but only if you never want to work in that city again. Anywhere. And possibly not in the state.
Admin runs credentials. Sure, they can't fire you for it, but they can make your life such hell that you want to quit. Or, they find a bunch of other silly things that let them start making their paper trail. I'm talking about people watching you enter every room and documenting your foam in foam out. People monitoring your computer usage at work.
They get away with it because they can. Fight all you want, but realize that without a sympathetic admin, you're going to lose. Even if you "win".

Guess you are right. If you did it I suppose being an anonymous news source might make it harder to pin on you (if you haven't made a big fuss about it prior)


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...which would cause you to lose all possibility of leverage but would totally be a nice passive aggressive move.


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I am looking for this and can't find it. I need to shove this into many faces :(

EDIT: Found it. Mother f*ckers


Where is it, I MUST have it....

NVM..found it. Mwah hahahaha
 
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Admin disliked the Physician ED medical director so fired him and created a new position of ED nursing director in an attempt to have more control over staffing in the ED.

RN ED director's first move was to take away the nurses' stipends and limit overtime (because apparently that was costing too much money). RN director thought it would be better to hire travel nurses fill in the gaps and pay them more than our permanent nurses, some of which had been there for 10-20 years. This led to many of the good nurses leaving for higher pay elsewhere, and more travel nurses who do not know where anything is in the ED or how to use the EMR. We are now staffed with many new grad nurses and travel nurses. Admin complains about falling metrics but can't figure out why. New MD ED director can't do anything otherwise he will lose his job just like the previous.

Oh but the hospital could afford to hire a new "Chief Experience Officer" to improve the patient experience..... facepalm
 
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Oh but the hospital could afford to hire a new "Chief Experience Officer" to improve the patient experience..... facepalm

If I understand it correctly, patient satisfaction is one of the metrics for the pay-to-play, just like CLABSI, CAUTI, VTE, etc. it weighs in the CMS "penalty box". If your experience officer can do things to improve the patient satisfaction scores it could justify his/her salary several times over. Stupid? Absolutely, but it does make some financial sense.

Ed
 
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Admin disliked the Physician ED medical director so fired him and created a new position of ED nursing director in an attempt to have more control over staffing in the ED.

RN ED director's first move was to take away the nurses' stipends and limit overtime (because apparently that was costing too much money). RN director thought it would be better to hire travel nurses fill in the gaps and pay them more than our permanent nurses, some of which had been there for 10-20 years. This led to many of the good nurses leaving for higher pay elsewhere, and more travel nurses who do not know where anything is in the ED or how to use the EMR. We are now staffed with many new grad nurses and travel nurses. Admin complains about falling metrics but can't figure out why. New MD ED director can't do anything otherwise he will lose his job just like the previous.

Oh but the hospital could afford to hire a new "Chief Experience Officer" to improve the patient experience..... facepalm
You get two thumbs up.
1, for referencing a great movie with your username (I think I've mentioned this before though)
2, for stalking where I actually work and writing down what happens verbatim so I don't have to. It's weird. There can't be more than one place that works this way, right?
 
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You get two thumbs up.
1, for referencing a great movie with your username (I think I've mentioned this before though)
2, for stalking where I actually work and writing down what happens verbatim so I don't have to. It's weird. There can't be more than one place that works this way, right?

Well thank you. Admins in Michigan and Texas must be collaborating....

What's scary is my program underwent a VERY similar situation to the whole Summa fiasco. New CEO's first day on the job fired the MD ED Director who had been there for 15 yrs. Only difference being ~1/2 of our core faculty signed with the CMG to stay around. I did enjoy referencing the Summa fiasco to the admin as an allusion to how close they came to getting our program shut down and losing their own jobs.
 
New email from administration the other day lists numerous things we are no longer allowed to do as they are "distracting to the patient care environment". Included in it is...

Playing music at your computer (I half understand this as we have some coworkers who don't even like it. But I personally love it at my desk)
A handful of legit things, but we all do it like checking non work related websites. And....
Loud laughter.

Seriously. He listed loud laughter as the final thing we weren't allowed to do. He has banned overt happiness in the ED.
 
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New email from administration the other day lists numerous things we are no longer allowed to do as they are "distracting to the patient care environment". Included in it is...

Playing music at your computer (I half understand this as we have some coworkers who don't even like it. But I personally love it at my desk)
A handful of legit things, but we all do it like checking non work related websites. And....
Loud laughter.

Seriously. He listed loud laughter as the final thing we weren't allowed to do. He has banned overt happiness in the ED.

Good thing admin avoids the ED since it's too crazy/noisy and they can't let their suits get dirty....

I'll die before I give up my music. It's the only way I stay sane.
 
New email from administration the other day lists numerous things we are no longer allowed to do as they are "distracting to the patient care environment". Included in it is...

Playing music at your computer (I half understand this as we have some coworkers who don't even like it. But I personally love it at my desk)
A handful of legit things, but we all do it like checking non work related websites. And....
Loud laughter.

Seriously. He listed loud laughter as the final thing we weren't allowed to do. He has banned overt happiness in the ED.

You should send them an email telling them that they aren't allowed to send ******* emails anymore because they are distracting to the patient care environment.
 
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New email from administration the other day lists numerous things we are no longer allowed to do as they are "distracting to the patient care environment". Included in it is...

Playing music at your computer (I half understand this as we have some coworkers who don't even like it. But I personally love it at my desk)
A handful of legit things, but we all do it like checking non work related websites. And....
Loud laughter.

Seriously. He listed loud laughter as the final thing we weren't allowed to do. He has banned overt happiness in the ED.

What's next, thought crimes?

Laughter is absolutely essential to the practice of EM. If you can not laugh at the tragic absurdity that is daily on display in the ED, then you'll burn out in a week.

I seriously think a laughter ban would prove demonstrably harmful to patients, if anyone could actually do the study.
 
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He listed loud laughter as the final thing we weren't allowed to do. He has banned overt happiness in the ED.

Man I would sue that guy and network so hard I would end up owning the place. Seriously I do believe a good lawyer could make $$$ $$$ $$$ from this kind of gross stupidity.

BTW A jury would probably love dishing out a punitive payment if your lawyer can paint the admin as the cause of patient distress. Everyone I know hates the ER waiting time and conditions.
 
What's next, thought crimes?

Laughter is absolutely essential to the practice of EM. If you can not laugh at the tragic absurdity that is daily on display in the ED, then you'll burn out in a week.

I seriously think a laughter ban would prove demonstrably harmful to patients, if anyone could actually do the study.

I'd be willing to bet that a patient heard a staff member laughing loudly, and assumed that the staff member was laughing at them. And then the patient complained to corporate.

That happened at my outpatient office a few years ago. A few of the MAs were laughing about a TV show that they had seen the night before, but the patient assumed that they were laughing at her, and complained. <sigh>
 
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That happened at my outpatient office a few years ago. A few of the MAs were laughing about a TV show that they had seen the night before, but the patient assumed that they were laughing at her, and complained.

Are admins selected solely on their ability to fail business school ? That report should have been thrown in the trash by all measurable metrics.
 
I'd be curious what administrators say when b*****ing about doctors. What do they say?

I imagine something like this, "These idiot doctors on our staff have have no clue. I mean, we can't possibly keep this department open. It's not making enough money. How dare they always play the 'We must save lives" card. Pffttfttt....
Lives schmives. I'm all about profits, bruh."


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I was a medical director for two years, and have sat in on those meetings.

You really don't want to know what gets said.

Are admins selected solely on their ability to fail business school ? That report should have been thrown in the trash by all measurable metrics.

So, there are a few things that you need to understand about administrators.
1) Most administrators are "middle management" - i.e, they exist solely to do the bidding of the administrator directly above them. There is little independent thought or room for creativity. There is no thought given to growth or "long term vision." If you asked them where they see the department in 5 years, you'd either get a canned answer or blank stares.

2) Measuring a physician's productivity is easy - how many RVUs did you generate? Measuring an administrator's productivity is far more nebulous. In fact, if a department or clinic is well run, there is extremely little for an administrator to do on a day to day basis.

So how do you make yourself feel productive if you're an administrator? You focus on minutiae. Dumb s*** that is really meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but gives you something to check off on your daily "to do" list. "Emailed physicians about detrimental laughter... CHECK!"

If there isn't any minutiae, you find minutiae to focus on.
 
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I was a medical director for two years, and have sat in on those meetings.

You really don't want to know what gets said.



So, there are a few things that you need to understand about administrators.
1) Most administrators are "middle management" - i.e, they exist solely to do the bidding of the administrator directly above them. There is little independent thought or room for creativity. There is no thought given to growth or "long term vision." If you asked them where they see the department in 5 years, you'd either get a canned answer or blank stares.

2) Measuring a physician's productivity is easy - how many RVUs did you generate? Measuring an administrator's productivity is far more nebulous. In fact, if a department or clinic is well run, there is extremely little for an administrator to do on a day to day basis.

So how do you make yourself feel productive if you're an administrator? You focus on minutiae. Dumb s*** that is really meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but gives you something to check off on your daily "to do" list. "Emailed physicians about detrimental laughter... CHECK!"

If there isn't any minutiae, you find minutiae to focus on.


After reading this, I am even all the more frustrated by my chart above.
 
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I'd be willing to bet that a patient heard a staff member laughing loudly, and assumed that the staff member was laughing at them. And then the patient complained to corporate.

That happened at my outpatient office a few years ago. A few of the MAs were laughing about a TV show that they had seen the night before, but the patient assumed that they were laughing at her, and complained. <sigh>

I think that you're correct, and I imagined this same situation happening as I typed my previous post. But I think the way to handle this is to apologize to the patient and to talk to the guffawing individual about situational awareness and decorum. Telling everybody not to laugh at work is the opposite of the right approach.
 
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I think that you're correct, and I imagined this same situation happening as I typed my previous post. But I think the way to handle this is to apologize to the patient and to talk to the individual about situational awareness and appropriate decorum. Telling everybody not to laugh at work is the opposite of the right approach.
And then document it on your COW.

Oh, wait - your WOW ("workstation on wheels").
 
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Actually, that makes it a LOT more intriguing. Ether it's eye opening, or is like car-crash interesting.

Kind of car crash interesting....except it's your car and someone else is telling you to drive straight into that pole.

Here's an example:

ADMIN: Dr. SMQ, one of the PAs, John, isn't getting his notes closed on time. It's taking him a lot longer to close his notes, according to Billing.

Me: I talked to him about it. The wifi in his pod is wonky. There are several dead spots and coverage is unreliable. He frequently loses wifi, so he can't connect to the EMR. That's why his notes take him so much longer.

ADMIN: IT says that there's no problem there.

Me: I checked it myself. The wifi in his pod is terrible.

ADMIN: Well, he needs to close his notes on time. Apparently, he just needs to learn how to work harder and more efficiently!

Me: It's not a matter of efficiency, it's the fact that he loses connection to the EMR multiple times a day.

ADMIN: Well, then he can just work on his notes at home. And if he doesn't want to do that, then he doesn't have to be employed here.

All conversations about physicians/midlevels end with one of two phrases: "He/she just needs to learn how to work harder and more efficiently" and/or "...in that case, then he/she doesn't have to be employed here."

Middle management is tasked to solve problems. But the solutions to those problems can't be costly, because middle management isn't allowed to spend large sums of money, usually. So the answer? "The physicians just need to work harder or more efficiently." And if they don't like that answer? "Then they don't have to work here."

Isn't middle management GREAT?!? </sarcasm>
 
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Kind of car crash interesting....except it's your car and someone else is telling you to drive straight into that pole.

Here's an example:

ADMIN: Dr. SMQ, one of the PAs, John, isn't getting his notes closed on time. It's taking him a lot longer to close his notes, according to Billing.

Me: I talked to him about it. The wifi in his pod is wonky. There are several dead spots and coverage is unreliable. He frequently loses wifi, so he can't connect to the EMR. That's why his notes take him so much longer.

ADMIN: IT says that there's no problem there.

Me: I checked it myself. The wifi in his pod is terrible.

ADMIN: Well, he needs to close his notes on time. Apparently, he just needs to learn how to work harder and more efficiently!

Me: It's not a matter of efficiency, it's the fact that he loses connection to the EMR multiple times a day.

ADMIN: Well, then he can just work on his notes at home. And if he doesn't want to do that, then he doesn't have to be employed here.

All conversations about physicians/midlevels end with one of two phrases: "He/she just needs to learn how to work harder and more efficiently" and/or "...in that case, then he/she doesn't have to be employed here."

Middle management is tasked to solve problems. But the solutions to those problems can't be costly, because middle management isn't allowed to spend large sums of money, usually. So the answer? "The physicians just need to work harder or more efficiently." And if they don't like that answer? "Then they don't have to work here."

Isn't middle management GREAT?!? </sarcasm>

So what is their role exactly?
 
So what is their role exactly?

My thoughts, precisely. Its like that scene from "Office Space" where Peter says to the Bobs that he has seven bosses, that serve no function.

Eight bosses. Corrected.

 
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"Then they don't have to work here."
<CMG liaison asshat>You know, you're privileged to work here.
<me>Yep, and judging by the number of people beating the door down to get jobs, me leaving would leave 1.2 FTEs open every month, with you guys paying even more bonuses to have people work here.
<asshat>Yeah, but <random hospital admin> doesn't care, so stop making them follow the rules
<me>here's my notice
<asshat> *stares blankly*
 
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I think that you're correct, and I imagined this same situation happening as I typed my previous post. But I think the way to handle this is to apologize to the patient and to talk to the guffawing individual about situational awareness and decorum. Telling everybody not to laugh at work is the opposite of the right approach.

Well, if that is actually what happened, the patient probably didn't know who laughed, so the administrator wouldn't be able to address one person.

But I disagree. The correct way to handle a situation like that is to apologize to the patient, and then do nothing. Because something like that is an honest misunderstanding. And you can't prevent or fix honest misunderstandings. Something else will happen (a nurse or a tech will drop something or stub their toe and absentmindedly say "Goddammit!" really loudly, and a patient will complain), and you can't run around spot-chasing things like that. Well, you CAN, but you shouldn't.

So what is their role exactly?

Whenever there is a problem (a lot of patients complain, LOS goes up, Press Ganey scores go down, Quality Metrics are not being met, etc.), senior management's knee jerk reaction is usually to hire a supervisor or manager for that department or clinic. It makes intuitive sense if you are a manager, even if that's not how it usually works out in reality.

The problem is, most problems are due to larger, systemic issues. The department is understaffed. Physicians/midlevels hired for that department are overwhelmed (often because they are inexperienced and/or understaffed). The equipment is poorly maintained. There are usually a myriad of reasons for why things happen.

Now, if senior management gives the supervisor a lot of freedom to make big, sweeping changes (i.e. they don't expect results overnight, they are willing to put some money towards the problems), then that can be a good move.

However, that is generally not the case, and the supervisor is thrown in to "fix things" with minimal guidance, frequently minimal experience, and little support and/or resources. So, to make themselves feel productive, they often end up focusing on small, nitpicky things, because, again, it is easier to focus on small things than to look at the big picture that needs to be fixed. Looking at the big picture is frequently overwhelming and tiring; being able to check off dumb chores on a to-do list is easy and makes you feel like you accomplished something.

The problem is that the more they nitpick, the less inclined the physician is to cooperate. So eventually the physician starts becoming more stubborn until they quit. And the answer is, "Well, THOSE DOCTORS are just not very cooperative and stubborn. We'll just hire someone who is more of a team player." <sigh>

Remember, the better organized and better run the place is, the fewer administrators you actually need. Most experienced and qualified physicians/PAs/NPs/RNs will do their jobs, well, with minimal oversight.

<CMG liaison asshat>You know, you're privileged to work here.
<me>Yep, and judging by the number of people beating the door down to get jobs, me leaving would leave 1.2 FTEs open every month, with you guys paying even more bonuses to have people work here.
<asshat>Yeah, but <random hospital admin> doesn't care, so stop making them follow the rules
<me>here's my notice
<asshat> *stares blankly*

Yep.

Of course, random hospital admin truly doesn't care; they have managed to convince themselves that we're all interchangeable. In their minds, there is truly no difference between, say, an NP with 20 years experience and an NP who is fresh out of school. Any doctor who has had to supervise both will, of course, say that that is ludicrous, but what does a hospital admin care?
 
Well, if that is actually what happened, the patient probably didn't know who laughed, so the administrator wouldn't be able to address one person.

But I disagree. The correct way to handle a situation like that is to apologize to the patient, and then do nothing. Because something like that is an honest misunderstanding. And you can't prevent or fix honest misunderstandings. Something else will happen (a nurse or a tech will drop something or stub their toe and absentmindedly say "Goddammit!" really loudly, and a patient will complain), and you can't run around spot-chasing things like that. Well, you CAN, but you shouldn't.



Whenever there is a problem (a lot of patients complain, LOS goes up, Press Ganey scores go down, Quality Metrics are not being met, etc.), senior management's knee jerk reaction is usually to hire a supervisor or manager for that department or clinic. It makes intuitive sense if you are a manager, even if that's not how it usually works out in reality.

The problem is, most problems are due to larger, systemic issues. The department is understaffed. Physicians/midlevels hired for that department are overwhelmed (often because they are inexperienced and/or understaffed). The equipment is poorly maintained. There are usually a myriad of reasons for why things happen.

Now, if senior management gives the supervisor a lot of freedom to make big, sweeping changes (i.e. they don't expect results overnight, they are willing to put some money towards the problems), then that can be a good move.

However, that is generally not the case, and the supervisor is thrown in to "fix things" with minimal guidance, frequently minimal experience, and little support and/or resources. So, to make themselves feel productive, they often end up focusing on small, nitpicky things, because, again, it is easier to focus on small things than to look at the big picture that needs to be fixed. Looking at the big picture is frequently overwhelming and tiring; being able to check off dumb chores on a to-do list is easy and makes you feel like you accomplished something.

The problem is that the more they nitpick, the less inclined the physician is to cooperate. So eventually the physician starts becoming more stubborn until they quit. And the answer is, "Well, THOSE DOCTORS are just not very cooperative and stubborn. We'll just hire someone who is more of a team player." <sigh>

Remember, the better organized and better run the place is, the fewer administrators you actually need. Most experienced and qualified physicians/PAs/NPs/RNs will do their jobs, well, with minimal oversight.



Yep.

Of course, random hospital admin truly doesn't care; they have managed to convince themselves that we're all interchangeable. In their minds, there is truly no difference between, say, an NP with 20 years experience and an NP who is fresh out of school. Any doctor who has had to supervise both will, of course, say that that is ludicrous, but what does a hospital admin care?

If you think I'm advocating "running around spot-chasing" everything then we're talking past each other. Oh well, happens a lot around here.
 
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If you think I'm advocating "running around spot-chasing" everything then we're talking past each other. Oh well, happens a lot around here.

No, not at all. It's more frustration aimed hospital administrators who, unfortunately, do tend to spot-chase.

Apologies for any misunderstanding!
 
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My question as someone who in the next year will be looking for my first job out.... Is there an obvious difference between hospitals where Admin run/make the decisions versus hospitals where house staff decide on who admin are? Or is it generally the story of power corrupts/makes them stupid?
 
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Kind of car crash interesting....except it's your car and someone else is telling you to drive straight into that pole.

Here's an example:

ADMIN: Dr. SMQ, one of the PAs, John, isn't getting his notes closed on time. It's taking him a lot longer to close his notes, according to Billing.

Me: I talked to him about it. The wifi in his pod is wonky. There are several dead spots and coverage is unreliable. He frequently loses wifi, so he can't connect to the EMR. That's why his notes take him so much longer.

ADMIN: IT says that there's no problem there.

Me: I checked it myself. The wifi in his pod is terrible.

ADMIN: Well, he needs to close his notes on time. Apparently, he just needs to learn how to work harder and more efficiently!

Me: It's not a matter of efficiency, it's the fact that he loses connection to the EMR multiple times a day.

ADMIN: Well, then he can just work on his notes at home. And if he doesn't want to do that, then he doesn't have to be employed here.

All conversations about physicians/midlevels end with one of two phrases: "He/she just needs to learn how to work harder and more efficiently" and/or "...in that case, then he/she doesn't have to be employed here."

Middle management is tasked to solve problems. But the solutions to those problems can't be costly, because middle management isn't allowed to spend large sums of money, usually. So the answer? "The physicians just need to work harder or more efficiently." And if they don't like that answer? "Then they don't have to work here."

Isn't middle management GREAT?!? </sarcasm>

Why does anyone pay these *****s ? I got a small IT security business that involves a lot of corporate interaction and I cannot understand why anyone pays such dimwits.
Is this why insurance cost so much ?

Also they sounds more like lower management. They should be trained at least as well as C-suite execs , right now by the sound of it they are 80% ******ed.
 
Why does anyone pay these *****s ? I got a small IT security business that involves a lot of corporate interaction and I cannot understand why anyone pays such dimwits.
Is this why insurance cost so much ?

Also they sounds more like lower management. They should be trained at least as well as C-suite execs , right now by the sound of it they are 80% ******ed.

Interesting percentage that you chose. Last article I read about healthcare costs in the US quoted a figure of 1 out of every 4 dollars spent going directly to administrative costs. Not far off of the 80-20 split that you just rifled off.

That's right, folks. A ****** wastes one out of every four dollars of your insurance premium.

*A WINNER IS YOU* (NES humor)
 
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My question as someone who in the next year will be looking for my first job out.... Is there an obvious difference between hospitals where Admin run/make the decisions versus hospitals where house staff decide on who admin are? Or is it generally the story of power corrupts/makes them stupid?
Are you working for a surgery center that's surgeon owned? If so, you'll be in a place where the house staff decide on admin. Most physicians are ridiculously bad at business and thus it's uncommon to find large scale enterprises (such as a full service hospital) that are able to sustain success with a predominantly physician-based leadership. Most hospitals will have some variation on a med exec committee that decides delineation of privileges, med staff bylaws, etc. but the CFO is the one actually running the hospital and they give ZERO f$#!s about anything that's not going to lead to black ink on the balance sheet. Just in recent memory, we've had a physician led group that built most of a hospital before abandoning the idea and a chain of FSEDs that borrowed enough money to build a bunch of FSEDs but not enough to actually open and run them.

As a general rule of thumb, when you're interviewing at a place take a note of the demeanor of the people you meet in the ED. If they're all miserable then it's probably something about the environment that's contributing to that. If everyone's happy, it's either a good environment or they're well-disciplined liars.
 
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There are physician owned hospitals that exist and predate the ACA rules. They're pretty spaced out though.
Unfortunately, a whole bunch of people voted for a group that then went on to decide that physicians weren't smart enough to run their own hospitals without committing Stark law violations.
So while the data shows that patient outcomes are better at "doctor's hospitals", we can't have any more, at least not without a lot of finagling.
 
After working in multiple EDs I've made it a rule never to take a job in an ED where the person in charge does not work clinically on nights and weekends. I find that to be a good measurement of how disconnected they are.
 
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My favorite phrase when encountering an administrator with a stupid policy that I intend to ignore is "thank you for the feedback". Ends the conversation, doesn't commit to anything, and is dismissive without being so disrespectful that there's nothing they can do. You have to then go where they can't follow (i.e. a patient room)
 
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For what it's worth, there could easily be a thread: completely idiotic things Venk is capable of...

Also, there are wonderful administrators in health care too, and partnering with administrators who bring logic and vision can help true magic happen in the workplace.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
For what it's worth, there could easily be a thread: completely idiotic things Venk is capable of...
Also, there are wonderful administrators in health care too, and partnering with administrators who bring logic and vision can help true magic happen in the workplace.
In a democratic group with open books and fair partnership tracts and weekly unicorn barbecues.
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Then reality sets in
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For what it's worth, there could easily be a thread: completely idiotic things Venk is capable of...

Also, there are wonderful administrators in health care too, and partnering with administrators who bring logic and vision can help true magic happen in the workplace.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Using LEAN methodology, administrators are a non-value added process in the delivery of healthcare. The only way that can offset their negative effect on the system of healthcare delivery (their salary, etc.) is by facilitating the provider-patient relationship. The problem from the EM side is that visionary administrators (I'm talking C-suite here, not director/manager level) who use logic to make magic happen will often prioritize almost everything else before the ED. While a well-run ED will bring money into the hospital, the EMTALA mandate means that the return on investment for expanding ED capabilities isn't anywhere near expanding other highly utilized service lines. Opening up new OR or cath lab space (if there is a demand in the marketplace) is going to generate far more money than appropriately staffing an expansion of the ED. Part of the problem we face is that we've in large part become too good at covering up the deficiencies in the resources we have available. If someone that was young and previously healthy died in the ED every time our volume spiked 30% above baseline then you can bet we would be getting more resources (before or after they first purged the entire ED). In reality, a department that's staffed for 90 pts/day can see 135 pts in a day. While all the staff leaves feeling like they just got punched in the liver, the effect on patients' actual outcomes may not be detectable. If they see 135 and due to heroic D-Day style effort keep the metrics looking reasonable for that shift, that's just further proof that staffing is appropriate. In a world where "Maximum Effort" exists mostly as a catchphrase for a scarlet clad anti-hero, that's what administrators expect from the ED every day.
 
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Using LEAN methodology, administrators are a non-value added process in the delivery of healthcare. The only way that can offset their negative effect on the system of healthcare delivery (their salary, etc.) is by facilitating the provider-patient relationship. The problem from the EM side is that visionary administrators (I'm talking C-suite here, not director/manager level) who use logic to make magic happen will often prioritize almost everything else before the ED. While a well-run ED will bring money into the hospital, the EMTALA mandate means that the return on investment for expanding ED capabilities isn't anywhere near expanding other highly utilized service lines. Opening up new OR or cath lab space (if there is a demand in the marketplace) is going to generate far more money than appropriately staffing an expansion of the ED. Part of the problem we face is that we've in large part become too good at covering up the deficiencies in the resources we have available. If someone that was young and previously healthy died in the ED every time our volume spiked 30% above baseline then you can bet we would be getting more resources (before or after they first purged the entire ED). In reality, a department that's staffed for 90 pts/day can see 135 pts in a day. While all the staff leaves feeling like they just got punched in the liver, the effect on patients' actual outcomes may not be detectable. If they see 135 and due to heroic D-Day style effort keep the metrics looking reasonable for that shift, that's just further proof that staffing is appropriate. In a world where "Maximum Effort" exists mostly as a catchphrase for a scarlet clad anti-hero, that's what administrators expect from the ED every day.

This is so true. And, for some reason, the idea that maintaining such Herculean effort, day in and day out, might not be sustainable in the long run, is UNFATHOMABLE to most administrators.

I told an administrator that Dr. Smith seemed like he was getting burned out, and if we wanted to retain him, we needed to figure out what he needed. The answer I got back was, "Well, Dr. Smith needs to understand that being a doctor is hard work. It isn't easy."

Thanks. I'm sure he'll appreciate being told by a non-physician manager that "being a doctor is hard."
 
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Here's an excellent idea. Let's take an emergency department that sees almost 70,000 patients per year with a ridiculous amount of urgent care and fast track/lac repairs and take away the laceration carts and Place all materials in an Omni cell (same as Pyxis) storage system that needs fingerprint to access! Lets also put all IV start supplies in their too.
What's next, get my DL stuff and ETTs there too?

However, the ED throughput is seemingly their most important metric!


Let's get a list going of more examples of the brilliant business intellects of the healthcare field showing how well they can run an emergency department.
Let's remove the OR unit Secretary. The calls will answer themselves, no doubt, and the OR will magically schedule itself. Not to mention the effects on morale of both staff and contracted surgeons. They fired a person that made half of what a nurse makes and people that cost four times as much as her (unit managers, charge nurses) ended up picking up the slack by rotating time at the front desk when they could be doing better things. Penny wise, pound foolish...

The verbal order thing is the worst though. It just throws a wrench in everything, all the time, forever.
 
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This is so true. And, for some reason, the idea that maintaining such Herculean effort, day in and day out, might not be sustainable in the long run, is UNFATHOMABLE to most administrators.

I told an administrator that Dr. Smith seemed like he was getting burned out, and if we wanted to retain him, we needed to figure out what he needed. The answer I got back was, "Well, Dr. Smith needs to understand that being a doctor is hard work. It isn't easy."

Thanks. I'm sure he'll appreciate being told by a non-physician manager that "being a doctor is hard."
That's when you start beating on the manager or director for allowing morale on the unit to fall and tell them they need to recruit more. I mean you don't stop putting stress on a widget that's wearing out, you just make sure you have another one ordered for when it breaks.
 
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Let's remove the OR unit Secretary. The calls will answer themselves, no doubt, and the OR will magically schedule itself. Not to mention the effects on morale of both staff and contracted surgeons. They fired a person that made half of what a nurse makes and people that cost four times as much as her (unit managers, charge nurses) ended up picking up the slack by rotating time at the front desk when they could be doing better things. Penny wise, pound foolish...

The verbal order thing is the worst though. It just throws a wrench in everything, all the time, forever.

That's what they did with our ER unit clerk/secretary. They made the charge nurse do all that work. In addition to being a charge nurse, and a floor nurse, and a tech, and a partridge in a pear tree.
 
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