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consequences for falsifying info on amcas

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by kicker123, Jul 22, 2006.

  1. kicker123

    kicker123 New Member

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    I just wanted to know what are the consequences for providing inaccurate information on the amcas and later getting caught... A classmate did not send in her 1st year transcript from one of her college in which she failed most of her classes in. Did you hear of any cases such as these or for providing wrong info..
     
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  3. Gabujabu

    Gabujabu Senior Member
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    Bad idea. I know somebody that did who was summarily rejected from all medical schools and banned from applying ever again. Had to go out of the country.
     
  4. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California
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    If "your friend" gets caught? Not ever being allowed to become a doctor via AAMC, for one. Might have a shot with carribean schools or DO, since they're on a different system. Your friend could check out where Dr. Nick went to school and see if they'll take him/her.
     
  5. dittozip

    dittozip Senior Member
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    Gabaju-

    what did you friend do that was so bad that they got the boot like that?
     
  6. MinnyGophers

    MinnyGophers Senior Member
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    I'd think lying in your application is bad enough.
     
  7. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    Consequences, depending on the stage you are caught pretty much are: (1) can be denied admission, (2) can be kicked out of medical school if admitted, (3) can be denied a license, (4) can have a license revoked, (5) will probably be denied the opportunity to ever enter the field again.
    Doesn't sound like a sound plan.
     
  8. dittozip

    dittozip Senior Member
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    i was just curious what the lie was? like did they omit to say they took classes at another school? or did they write that they were teh frist person to walk on mars?
     
  9. C.P. Jones

    C.P. Jones Catface Majigger
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    i think they chop your hands off and wire your mouth shut so that you can't fill out apps ever again
     
  10. C.P. Jones

    C.P. Jones Catface Majigger
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    not possible, that's already one of my ECs, must have said the second, which would be a lie anyway since i was the first and only person to walk on mars...and jupiter...i know it was a tough one, i wrote about that one in my PS
     
  11. Gabujabu

    Gabujabu Senior Member
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    Lie about the death of a spouse that didn't actually exist. :eek:

     
  12. dittozip

    dittozip Senior Member
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    what do you mean. that is crazy. at what point in the application did this person lie about that and how did they figure it out?

    that story seems to nuts to be true.
     
  13. silkworm

    silkworm Senior Member
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    Wow, I got to admire the sheer brazeness of that. So did the adcomm smell a rat during the interview or what?
     
  14. jackieMD2007

    jackieMD2007 ***MVI***
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    Apparently once you are in medical school, if for whatever reason there are lies or incomplete information (not disclosing things, etc), you can still be kicked out.

    Before residency/licensing there is a lot of screening. How bad would it suck to go through med school and then have something ugly catch up with you after graduation and not be able to get your license? SOOOOOOOOOOO NOT WORTH it! :eek:
     
  15. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    It would also be awfully rough to pay down $200k of debt considering the lack of jobs you could get with that kind of black mark on your record (unless you lied again). Your MD could be revoked too, so you would effectively be a college grad again.
     
  16. appleluver7

    appleluver7 Member
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    Clearly, lying is inappropriate, and don't do it!

    However, failing to submit a transcript from a school can never be found out. If you fail to submit your freshman grades from a college, clearly, AMCAS is going to wonder what you were doing your freshman year, and this will raise flags, causing you to be in deep trouble.

    However, if you fail to submit transcripts from "other" colleges that you "tried" courses on for size but did poorly, AMCAS will never know. For instance, I know someone who took organic several times until she received an A but did not submit her previous "attempts" which were not at her home school. While I don't agree with her, AMCAS will not find out about her because they have no way of knowing that she took the classes. According to the Family and Education Privacy Act of 1974, educational records are sealed and only the student can release them, which is why students must request their transcripts be sent. If the student fails to submit some transcripts to AMCAS, it would be illegal for AMCAS to obtain the transcripts EVEN IF THEY KNEW THEY EXISTED. But AMCAS would have no way of knowing such transcripts even existed unless the student disclosed that. AMCAS is powerful but anemic when it comes to this issue. Interestingly, some schools maintain "internal" records that are not disclosed to AMCAS. I know of at least one Ivy which openly declares that it will not disclose classes students fail. AMCAS is aware of this policy and cannot do anything about it. The only way AMCAS could obtain these records would be to break into the school's system which would be highly illegal.

    Given this policy, do you think AMCAS should sue the Ivy that I'm talking about and force them to disclose? What legal basis would AMCAS have for such a suit? Would they hire a Wall Street firm to litigate? Would the Ivy, which has a larger endowment than AMCAS, win the suit? Is AMCAS more powerful than the FBI, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and the CIA all put together!!! I'm scared of AMCAS!!! :laugh:
     
  17. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Avatar=One of the Greats
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    I highly doubt that the AMCAS application is rechecked during the licensing process.
     
  18. dittozip

    dittozip Senior Member
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    who cares about any of these semantics. dont you guys want to hear more about the story with the fake spouse. how did you friend get caught? this is hilarious....
     
  19. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    First, the records may be sealed, but the fact that she attended the school is not. Not providing transcripts from all schools you attended is in itself fraudulent, and you only need to show attendance to prove the fraud, not the contents of the record. Second, you are assuming that what isn't easilly found out today won't be as easilly found out 5, 10 etc years from now. The world is getting more computerized. And someone could always rat you out. Third, if you didn't pay cash, financial aid records will give you away. Fourth, AMCAS isn't who you should be worried about. When you apply for your various licenses, you'd be surprised at the kinds of things they are capable of digging up. You are getting a federal license to prescribe drugs at some point, and they are pretty thorough with the background searches at that time.
     
  20. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    I wouldn't bet my career on that.
     
  21. dittozip

    dittozip Senior Member
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    i agree. i am sure that there is a very simply way of knowing what schools you have attended. that was really dumb on your friends part.
     
  22. Jedix123

    Jedix123 Senior Member
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    So the general concensus is don't lie your way into medical school.

    It's much better to just make a fake MD diploma and set up shop in a rural town like Frank Abignale(sp?).
     
  23. appleluver7

    appleluver7 Member
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    First, it is questionable whether AMCAS or any other group could verify enrollment in the first place. There are more than 3000 institutions in the US. You are assuming that in the future, all these systems will be linked which is extremely doubtful given issues of security and the autonomy of universities. The Ivy League, for instance, has no intention of ever allowing their records to be tapped by anyone else. A perfect example of this was when Princeton tapped into Yale's admission system illegally and therefore Princeton was investigated by the FBI. Princeton used social security numbers and names of cross applicants to simply check the status of their applications at Yale. After the FBI investigated, Princeton lost federal funding and Hargadon was "retired". While this is different from issues of enrollment, it is highly unlikely there will be a single system in which everyone's enrollment is listed, largely due to issues of cost and security. Second, even if there were, this system would be predicated on the idea that the student used his/her social security number at every school at which he registered. There are dozens and hundres of people with the same last name...Third, you are assuming every student applies for financial aid. This particular girl is rich and never applied for financial aid. Fourth, again, you are assuming they have access to financial aid reports without your permission. Fifth, someone could "rat you out"? How would someone know? And if they did, how would they enforce that testimony? Your logic on that doesn't make sense. Sixth, a lot of these hypotheticals would require litigation for disclosure, particularly if the student fought it, and to litigate on every case in which a girl failed to disclose organic would not be too practical. Seventh, even if all of what you said is true, you fail to realize that there are ways for students to circumvent the system. What about schools which don't disclose failures? For instance, the student could take organic, learn the material and intentionally "fail" so that he/she could retake it again and again each time increasing their grade to reach an A? Here, is a perfect example of how the student could easily avoid getting caught.
     
  24. dittozip

    dittozip Senior Member
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    ok we can all agree to disagree. we can revisit this convo 10 years from now and see how it worked out.
     
  25. Svidrillion

    Svidrillion Member
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    This is all dumb.

    Don't lie on your AMCAS.

    Don't lie on your secondarys.

    Don't lie in your interview.

    Just don't lie.

    I'm sorry if you [expletive deleted] it up when you were younger.

    But you're going to have to accepted the [expletive deleted] consequences of your actions.

    Damn, this is a stupid thread.

    Though I would like to hear the spouse story.
     
  26. Gabujabu

    Gabujabu Senior Member
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    It was an effective sob story about the death of a spouse and it really helped out during the interview process due to sympathy (the person got into a few schools too). Of course, the non-existent spouse thing eventually got found out and the person got blacklisted in the US. The sad part is that they likely would have gotten in without the story. Competitive premeds for you. The person went to the Caribbean, came back, and now is completing a fellowship!

     
  27. dittozip

    dittozip Senior Member
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    thats quite a mouth you have young lady. kina hot. lol

    now.... Gabujabu, lets hear this story.
     
  28. relentless11

    relentless11 Going broke and loving it
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    That pretty much says it all. For one I wouldn't be my career on it. If it was so easy to just erase the past, many people would do it. I consider myself a positive person, but I highly doubt that our world consists of so many honest, god fearing, or AAMC fearing people especially considering the rigors of the med school application process.

    Ultimately, one significant factor that probably reduces the amount of people who omit poor grades getting into med school is probably due to the fact that your study skills carry over, and they are probably screened out anyway due to continued sub-par performance. In the case of the OP's friend, failing multiple classes over a one year time period is completely unexcusable. Over the ages, I have realized that to fail a class (e.g., get an F), requires a lot of hardwork! Even if it was due to some unforeseen event, the person could've dropped the courses, reduced the courseload, and so on. But to fail classes over that length of time is completely ludicrous.

    AAMC has been at this game for many generations of pre-meds, so we can discuss this topic for eternity, but unless one of us has the inside scoop on AAMC, I think for the sake of argument, AAMC knows what they are doing, and so do the med schools. Although not a perfect system, but its naive to think that they don't have the capacity to check. Otherwise could've just done another bachelors in the same degree at another school, and maintained a 4.0, rather than spend 4 years as a PhD.;)
     
  29. dittozip

    dittozip Senior Member
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    but i dont get it. how did they ever know that it was fake?
     
  30. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    Unless you were invisible or never mentioned it, someone will know you went to a school. You yourself know of this particular girl, I bet others do too. And not everyone loves someone who plays fast and loose with the rules. Once given that info, virtually anyone, let alone AMCAS or a licensing board, could call that school to check on the veracity of the mere fact as to whether she attended. You don't need her permission to learn that much.

    One other point also sometimes brought up on these threads is that even if AMCAS or the licensing board doesn't do a great job of investigating, it is not inconceivable that a plaintiffs attorney in a malpractice suit down the road would do the job better. He would have incentive to show that this was a doctor prone to mediocrity in school, and thus should have been better supervised if not kept away from whatever procedure went bad. If you have enough PIs digging, odds are someone turns up something rotten.
     
  31. Gabujabu

    Gabujabu Senior Member
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    Not exactly sure. People don't talk about these things readily. However, it's the kind of thing that's really easy to confirm. One possibility is that financial aid forms ask for that kind of info, and nonexistant spouses likely get caught.

     
  32. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Avatar=One of the Greats
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    the point is that after this student matriculates, she will have dodged a potentially career destroying bullet. she's taking a big risk, especially if her med school does a particularly thorough background check that can see if she attended that other school through financial aid records or some other sort of backdoor method. tred at your own risk!
     
  33. dittozip

    dittozip Senior Member
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    and with that said, I would say it is time to end this thread. pleasure spending the afternoon wiht you folks.
     
  34. defrunner

    defrunner I'm Greased Up
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    Well, every student has to submit their social security number when they matriculate and register for classes, I believe. I fail to see how AMCAS and/or med schools can't just find out any and all institutions that you attended school in.

    Otherwise, I'm sure that there would be a lot more people claiming to have been in certain high schools in California or something to help them establish some kind of connection to the state and possibly increase their chances.

    I am sure that there are a lot of safeguards in place to prevent fraudulent claims. Otherwise, the whole application system would just collapse. The types of people that apply to med school aren't exactly the average group of people: we are all bright, educated, and ambitious people. If it was that easy to get away with falsifying info, I'm sure a lot more people would do it (maybe not the more honorable applicants like we on SDN seem to be, but in general).

    My point is, we all have to submit confidential data like our social security numbers for a reason. It's not just an identification number that mysteriously disappears into thin air as soon as we hit the 'submit' button. AMCAS, by now, has done their homework and I doubt that they have no way of finding out the validity of where we lived, if/where we took courses, etc. As inefficient as they may seem to be, I would give them a little more credit than that (let alone the more advanced background-checking done upon graduation and beyond).
     
  35. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    Because medicine in particular is a career where you are licensed and periodically relicensed, not to mention sued, there are many more potential junctions at which to get investigated and nabbed than many careers. There's simply too much, too enduring scrutiny. There are many jobs at which you could hide your past foibles much more easilly.
     
  36. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Avatar=One of the Greats
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    I further assert that although this is unethical, it won't ever come up again after matriculation:

    For example during licensure in California, http://www.medbd.ca.gov/Applicant_US-Canada.pdf

    There are no questions even about where the candidate went for undergrad or even if the MD has an undergraduate degree!

    She shoudn't do it, but will she get caught? If she's smart enough, she won't.
     
  37. Gabujabu

    Gabujabu Senior Member
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    Like the CEO of RadioShack who was found out after many years working there. http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2006-02-16-lying-exec_x.htm

    It is sad that lying on CV's is more common than we like to think it is.

     
  38. jackieMD2007

    jackieMD2007 ***MVI***
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    Everywhere we go, we leave a paper trail.
    W-2s from jobs, utility bills, credit cards, apartment leases, school records, financial aid, etc...you can find out a LOT on a credit report too.

    I don't doubt for a second that AMCAS/schools can verify everything they need.
     
  39. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    Folks get caught in lies. Background searches can turn up some. It can also come up in a zillion other ways. A determined medmal attorney. A bitter spouse during a divorce. A jealous crony. A relative fighting you over a family estate. It's not easy to keep skeletons in your closet, they have a nasty tendency of getting out and killing you.
     
  40. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Avatar=One of the Greats
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    First, the licensure doesn't even question the undergrad education, thus demonstrating that they dont care about that part of the doctor's past (at least education wise). A background search may indeed show that she went to a podunk community college, but will they care? No, there's no reason for them to even question that part of her past since it isnt relevant to the licensure.

    And this isnt like the RadioShack CEO that lied about having a bachelor's degree. This student lied about a school where she attended for a few classes. Her record of what she did at that school is secure from the public, but maybe not the fact that she attended. But then they also have to have knowledge of what the AMCAS stated, fortunately for her, the AMCAS is also kept confidential except from those in the admissions committees.

    And 20 years down the road, would a medical board really revoke a license if someone came forward claiming that this doctor lied on the AMCAS? Medical boards aren't necessarily quick to revoke licenses. Doctors with drug issues are often given a slap on the wrist and sent to rehab and then allowed to come back to practice. Negligence and other malpractice issues are often only punished by the civil court system and not given a second thought by medical boards unless their is evidence of incompetence. Will they care about someone who lied to get into med school then, if they dont care about those more relevant issues to her ability to practice medicine?
     
  41. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    First, if a background search turns up the evidence, someone could get curious. For instance if someone got into Harvard med but failed Orgo twice at a different school, that might pique my curiousity, both as an investigator and as a human being.
    Second, if it comes out in court that someone got into med school under false pretenses, that would give a plaintiff a pretty strong case against the hospital for negligent supervision/background checks and the like. A lawyer would have great incentive to dig up evidence of lying on an application, to impeach testimony of the doctor, should s/he take the stand. The person would get fired - the risk of liability is too great. The medical board might not care so much, but the med school might. If they choose to revoke the MD, the licensing board is forced to do likewise.
    Third, drug issues get treated differently than most other infringements, in that drug addiction is recognized as a disease, and we don't penalize diseases, we make the person get help.
     
  42. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Avatar=One of the Greats
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    good points, law2doc. you bring up some good things to worry about, but the chances of someone being able to connect the dots is just so low that I doubt that it would be possible to catch this person who is lying. There is too much confidentiality of records these days with things such as applications and transcripts. That the first step, realizing that the student failed classes is hard to find evidence for without her giving up those records voluntarily.
     
  43. dittozip

    dittozip Senior Member
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    law 2 doc. you must really be a lawyer.
     
  44. NonTradMed

    NonTradMed Perpetual Student
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    I'm going to agree with the lawyer on this one.


    And another thing, I would not want to be told at some point when I'm attending med school that I will be expelled because of some 'irregularities' in my academic background. I would hate to have this thing hanging over my head for the next four years. Isn't med school hard enough without worrying about this too?

    Btw, this story reminds me of that article of the Harvard-bound student who fought in court to be considered the school's valadictorian. She was technically a fraction of a point ahead of the next guy but the school wanted to award co-valadictorians. She won the case.

    However, the scrutiny she suffered during the trial led some to find out she plagerized some articles she wrote and put on her resume and Harvard revoked her acceptance. Hm, it seems like a little bit of unethical dealing that 'no one can possibly check for' was found out and she suffered as a result. It's amazing what comes out when one is under intense scrutiny. Not saying that anyone who lies and cheats their way into school will be found out, but something like this *can* become an achilles heel if you come under intense attention.

    Better to not tempt fate.
     
  45. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    Not the kind we are talking about here. But they exist.

    Bottom line -- if you don't play fast and loose with the truth, you can avoid this parade of horribles. You will have enough to worry about as a med student or physician without this kind of crap hanging over your head. Who needs to live life waiting for the next shoe to drop?
     
  46. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California
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    Or a particularly nasty malpractice suit where they do some digging on you. Bad news.
     
  47. chewsnuffles

    chewsnuffles is a series of tubes
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    This is one thread a bit dear to my heart, and I think in the end there are two perspectives:
    First, Law2Doc is compleatly right about skeletons reappearing. Just out of interest, how old are you, because I've been reading your past posts and you have some really insightful things to say. Us pre-meds enjoy getting a taste of the "rhetoric" type people out there, because most science majors I know struggle to hold down an argument in even the most basic fields.
    Secondly, what hit me at some point in my quest to be a doctor was this: YOU HAVE OTHER PEOPLES LIVES IN YOUR HANDS, not something to be taken lightly by any means. Regardless of litigation, screwing up because you havn't worked hard enough in med school or were never qualified and having it lead to someones death is close to murdering them in many ways. I know it seems extreeme, but I think most people assume that a physician will take the high road.
    I cosidered "leaving out" a class I got a C+ in that I just took for fun over the summer. I'm still sure I could get away with it, BUT WHY! I figure there may have been times in my past where I havn't been "100% forward with the truth". Not outright lies, but the clever "step around" through ambiguous wording, ya know what I mean. But I know this stops here, for so many reasons I hope that medicine will reward me for atleast trying to stay virtuous. I saw it when I shadowed a doctor who literally threw his pen when a drug rep described a "kick back" scheme for perscribing his brand of drugs.
    In the end, it's these "easy little things to lie about" that screw you big time.
    SO many people from my dad's company got fired in a sting on lying about travel expenses. I thought it was a bit extreem and always asked my dad to put extra stuff on his travel card when I was younger, but he wouldn't do it. Damn good lesson for me in my opinion... haha.
     
  48. jsnuka

    jsnuka Senior Member
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    When you submit your AMCAS application, you complete/electronically sign a verification statement which waives your FERPA rights.

    Don't you guys ever wonder why the AMCAS process takes so long?

    It is not just a manpower issue. Besure to read that certification statement again to understand what I mean.
     
  49. mmmkay121

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    lol! This is why personal statements and interviews should carry little weight. A good bullsh*tter can slip through the cracks.
     
  50. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Avatar=One of the Greats
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    From AAMC Policies Regarding Data Collection, Processing, and Dissemination (on AMCAS help):

    The Certification Statement on AMCAS:

    Nowhere were your FERPA rights waived, the AAMC's policy is to maintain your privacy rights regarding your educational record, except to release the information you gave them to the medical schools which you designate.
     
  51. appleluver7

    appleluver7 Member
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    Law2Doc: Let's assume you are right: AMCAS and others have sophisticated technology to tap all records at all times and under all circumstances without any legal necessity. In fact, they could even search our houses without warrants for evidence of "lying"! LOL. Why even have us submit our transcripts voluntarily? Wouldn't they just be able to pull them from every school we've ever attended?

    Joking aside, how do you feel about Brown University, which allows students to fail classes without being recorded on the transcript? If you fail a class at Brown, the class is not recorded. In fact, there is no evidence the student even took the class. Do you think this is unethical of Brown? Students at Brown could effectively take orgo a couple of times, failing each time and then finally achieve that grade of A. Only of course the A would be recorded and it would only show that the student took the class once. Even if someone found out the student took orgo multiple times, how would this affect the student, since it wasn't the student's fault that Brown didn't release the previous failing grades? In other words, the student sent her transcript from Brown to AMCAS, but Brown was the one doing the concealing. Law2Doc: In a court case: who would be responsible for concealing? Brown or the student?
     

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