consequences for falsifying info on amcas

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appleluver7 said:
Law2Doc: Let's assume you are right: AMCAS and others have sophisticated technology to tap all records at all times and under all circumstances without any legal necessity. In fact, they could even search our houses without warrants for evidence of "lying"! LOL. Why even have us submit our transcripts voluntarily? Wouldn't they just be able to pull them from every school we've ever attended?

Joking aside, how do you feel about Brown University, which allows students to fail classes without being recorded on the transcript? If you fail a class at Brown, the class is not recorded. In fact, there is no evidence the student even took the class. Do you think this is unethical of Brown? Students at Brown could effectively take orgo a couple of times, failing each time and then finally achieve that grade of A. Only of course the A would be recorded and it would only show that the student took the class once. Even if someone found out the student took orgo multiple times, how would this affect the student, since it wasn't the student's fault that Brown didn't release the previous failing grades? In other words, the student sent her transcript from Brown to AMCAS, but Brown was the one doing the concealing. Law2Doc: In a court case: who would be responsible for concealing? Brown or the student?
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Regarding your first paragraph, I don't think I ever suggested anyone had the right to "tap" information, warrantless or not. When you apply for a license, you will be required to submit to a background check, fingerprints and the like, and sign forms indicating that the investigator has the right to look into your background, academics, etc. All professions do this. AMCAS is not this.
Regarding the latter paragraph, you must follow the instructions on AMCAS. If Brown doesn't that's fine. But you don't get around not having submitted every transcript from every school you ever intended by using Brown as an example where you would have been allowed to retake had you gone there.
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Ah, question answered.
 
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Law2Doc said:
Regarding your first paragraph, I don't think I ever suggested anyone had the right to "tap" information, warrantless or not. When you apply for a license, you will be required to submit to a background check, fingerprints and the like, and sign forms indicating that the investigator has the right to look into your background, academics, etc. All professions do this. AMCAS is not this.
Regarding the latter paragraph, you must follow the instructions on AMCAS. If Brown doesn't that's fine. But you don't get around not having submitted every transcript from every school you ever intended by using Brown as an example where you would have been allowed to retake had you gone there.
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OK, but you don't explain about Brown specifically. How does AMCAS get around Brown who themselves are concealing?
 
I dunno, but I'm freaking out just because I accidentally left off one class and when my app was verified it had a mark for having to correct it... I hate to think of how panic stricken I'd be if it were a whole year. I wouldn't know exactly what they'd do if they found out, but I'm sure she'd be in pretty deep ****, lol.
 
Um, I mistakenly wrote on AMCAS that I started an activity on a date even though I actually began earlier. Would that be really bad? When answering secondaries, should I just stick w/ what I wrote on AMCAS or correct the mistake? I know there's no way of making changes to AMCAS.

thegymbum said:
I dunno, but I'm freaking out just because I accidentally left off one class and when my app was verified it had a mark for having to correct it... I hate to think of how panic stricken I'd be if it were a whole year. I wouldn't know exactly what they'd do if they found out, but I'm sure she'd be in pretty deep ****, lol.
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quantummechanic said:
From AAMC Policies Regarding Data Collection, Processing, and Dissemination (on AMCAS help):



The Certification Statement on AMCAS:



Nowhere were your FERPA rights waived, the AAMC's policy is to maintain your privacy rights regarding your educational record, except to release the information you gave them to the medical schools which you designate.
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If this was the case, then AMCAS would not be able to perform investigations on possible mistakes, omissions or fabrications on the application.

Think about it. :idea:
 
jsnuka said:
If this was the case, then AMCAS would not be able to perform investigations on possible mistakes, omissions or fabrications on the application.

Think about it. :idea:
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how so?

If, for example, they found out that you lied about not having a particular college on your application, they could contact the college and ask if you atteneded. However, they would require this person to get the transcript from the college since a college can't give educational records to any entity without the student's permission. FERPA still applies.
 
quantummechanic said:
If, for example, they found out that you lied about not having a particular college on your application, they could contact the college and ask if you atteneded.
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The response to that question would be adequate to show that you submitted AMCAS without following the rules. They wouldn't need to investigate further to show you lied. You agreed by submitting your app that you gave them all transcripts and in fact you didn't. Game over.
 
I listed a date incorrectly on my amcas, said I started a year earlier than I did. Should I tell the schools or just let it slide as more trouble than its worth. There is no record of it anyway just some group volunteering with Habitat, didn't even have a contact. Am I gonna be busted later on down the road for lying? That would suck.
 
I do love how conversations on SDN about ethical issues always follow a very predictable arc of starting at "Is it wrong?" and ending with "How would I get caught?"
 
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notdeadyet said:
I do love how conversations on SDN about ethical issues always follow a very predictable arc of starting at "Is it wrong?" and ending with "How would I get caught?"
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It's sad. Too many people focus on getting into med school at all costs, even to the point of a loss of integrity. They morph into gunners when they get there. And then they whine as residents when practicing medicine isn't the wine and cheesecake they thought it would be. It's the sad natural cycle of life for some. :eek:
 
Law2Doc said:
The response to that question would be adequate to show that you submitted AMCAS without following the rules. They wouldn't need to investigate further to show you lied. You agreed by submitting your app that you gave them all transcripts and in fact you didn't. Game over.
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THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!

This is what I have been maintaining all along.
 
Law2Doc said:
It's sad. Too many people focus on getting into med school at all costs, even to the point of a loss of integrity. They morph into gunners when they get there. And then they whine as residents when practicing medicine isn't the wine and cheesecake they thought it would be. It's the sad natural cycle of life for some. :eek:
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Couldn't agree more. And lots of folks actually believe that they can sacrifice their integrity to get into medical school, to get into residency, to do well in residency and then somehow regain their integrity as doctors for the rest of their lives.

If you start sacrificing your morals by the age of 22, don't kid yourself that you'll somehow have them back again by 32. It just doesn't work that way.
 
When AMCAS asks for contact information for every EC, do they actually take the time to research into these people and verify every single thing?

I'm asking because first, they don't ask for phone numbers (which would make it easier for them to do the research), and second, because a lot of the volunteering activities I listed didn't take attendance and will probably have no records of anyone being there if someone called... :scared:
 
baylormed said:
When AMCAS asks for contact information for every EC, do they actually take the time to research into these people and verify every single thing?
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If you were honest, I really wouldn't worry about it.
 
Half of the state licensing boards in this country dont even do a criminal background checks, yet you people are suggesting that they are going to investigate that weightlifting course you took over the summer at a community college 10 years ago..........yeah right. State licensing boards are just like adcoms, they are overloaded with paperwork as it is and they are not too anxious to add to the pile by calling every university in the country asking, "Have you seen this boy?". Im not condoning the actions but lets not lose our heads here. If you had no financial aid at the institution, how would anyone ever know you were there, through a background check? There is no database that exists that you can enter a social security number and pull up all the schools they attended, and if you think they are going to eventually transfer all the existing records to such a database, well then i say dont hold your breath, cuz it aint gonna happen. People should consider the ethics involved here, but I think we should avoid using scare tactics to straighten someone out.
 
sanche60 said:
...but I think we should avoid using scare tactics to straighten someone out.
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But without fear, how else could we control absolute strangers?
 
sanche60 said:
Half of the state licensing boards in this country dont even do a criminal background checks, yet you people are suggesting that they are going to investigate that weightlifting course you took over the summer at a community college 10 years ago..........yeah right. State licensing boards are just like adcoms, they are overloaded with paperwork as it is and they are not too anxious to add to the pile by calling every university in the country asking, "Have you seen this boy?". Im not condoning the actions but lets not lose our heads here. If you had no financial aid at the institution, how would anyone ever know you were there, through a background check? There is no database that exists that you can enter a social security number and pull up all the schools they attended, and if you think they are going to eventually transfer all the existing records to such a database, well then i say dont hold your breath, cuz it aint gonna happen. People should consider the ethics involved here, but I think we should avoid using scare tactics to straighten someone out.
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The national database is much closer than you realize.


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=296447
 
Rafa said:
But without fear, how else could we control absolute strangers?
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why are you trying to control them in the first place? thats the real question.
 
jsnuka said:
The national database is much closer than you realize.


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=296447
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Right now, the plan has no legs. The House included in its higher education bill a prohibition on such a plan; the Senate bill ignored it; and some powerful legislators oppose it.

that was my favorite part of the link you posted.
 
sanche60 said:
Half of the state licensing boards in this country dont even do a criminal background checks, yet you people are suggesting that they are going to investigate that weightlifting course you took over the summer at a community college 10 years ago..........yeah right. State licensing boards are just like adcoms, they are overloaded with paperwork as it is and they are not too anxious to add to the pile by calling every university in the country asking, "Have you seen this boy?". Im not condoning the actions but lets not lose our heads here. If you had no financial aid at the institution, how would anyone ever know you were there, through a background check? There is no database that exists that you can enter a social security number and pull up all the schools they attended, and if you think they are going to eventually transfer all the existing records to such a database, well then i say dont hold your breath, cuz it aint gonna happen. People should consider the ethics involved here, but I think we should avoid using scare tactics to straighten someone out.
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Law2Doc is known for his scare tactics. He loves to pretend that he is an expert on everything and that licensing boards are as powerful as the FBI and the CIA. Clearly, to investigate this **** would take huge loads of money and time. Don't try and lie people.
 
sanche60 said:
State licensing boards are just like adcoms, they are overloaded with paperwork as it is and they are not too anxious to add to the pile by calling every university in the country asking, "Have you seen this boy?". Im not condoning the actions but lets not lose our heads here. If you had no financial aid at the institution, how would anyone ever know you were there, through a background check?
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There are lots of people in jail because there was no way that they could get caught. Don't let ego convince you that it couldn't happen to you just because you can't figure out a way.

If I told you in 2000 that by 2010 that the government was going to be doing full wiretaps without warrants, that phone records would all be turned over without warrant to the government by cell phone providers, that people's library records were going to be considered vital to national security, that Americans were going to be required by law to carry a trackable ID at all times and that the idea of right to trial was a thing of the past, you'd have said I was nuts.

To potentially put your career at risk because there is not a law, system, or technology in place now that could catch your lie is very, very foolish. Things change.
 
appleluver7 said:
Law2Doc is known for his scare tactics.
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You've been posting here for all of 3 weeks, dude. Don't try to sound so salty as to presume to know people's reputations. You're like the guy who moves to a new city for college and starts correcting folks on bus routes after a couple weeks.
 
notdeadyet said:
There are lots of people in jail because there was no way that they could get caught. Don't let ego convince you that it couldn't happen to you just because you can't figure out a way.

If I told you in 2000 that by 2010 that the government was going to be doing full wiretaps without warrants, that phone records would all be turned over without warrant to the government by cell phone providers, that people's library records were going to be considered vital to national security, that Americans were going to be required by law to carry a trackable ID at all times and that the idea of right to trial was a thing of the past, you'd have said I was nuts.

To potentially put your career at risk because there is not a law, system, or technology in place now that could catch your lie is very, very foolish. Things change.
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But where do you draw the line between being unwilling to risk your career and senseless paranoia? You are using extreme circumstances to demonstrate the necessities of everyday situations. Your logic isnt really applicable to the real world. Its analogous to an individual who wont leave their house because they are afraid of being hit by a jumbo jet that fell out of the sky or a surgeon who wears oven mits at all times to protect his/her hands. I was simply talking probabilities, which is usually the most reasonable approach to things in this world. Again, i dont condone this persons actions, i am simply acknowledging the fact that it isnt very likely that they will be caught. Therefore we should focus on the ethics, not the extreme circumstances that probably wont occur.
p.s. if you honestly think this country is going to implement a multi-million dollar database to catch a few hundred people lying on their applications to schools, then i think youll probably be very disappointed.
 
sanche60 said:
You are using extreme circumstances to demonstrate the necessities of everyday situations.
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No, applying to medical school is not an everyday situation.

sanche60 said:
Again, i dont condone this persons actions, i am simply acknowledging the fact that it isnt very likely that they will be caught.
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I don't think anyone is saying it is likely that they will be caught. Only that it is possible that they will be caught.

Folks who think it is impossible that their lie can't possibly catch up with them are niave. And if there is even a possibility of your career being jeopardized, you're foolish to take the risk.
 
notdeadyet said:
No, applying to medical school is not an everyday situation.


I don't think anyone is saying it is likely that they will be caught. Only that it is possible that they will be caught.

Folks who think it is impossible that their lie can't possibly catch up with them are niave. And if there is even a possibility of your career being jeopardized, you're foolish to take the risk.
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So what color are your oven-mits?

jk. I respect your opinion.
 
notdeadyet said:
No, applying to medical school is not an everyday situation.


I don't think anyone is saying it is likely that they will be caught. Only that it is possible that they will be caught.

Folks who think it is impossible that their lie can't possibly catch up with them are niave. And if there is even a possibility of your career being jeopardized, you're foolish to take the risk.
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Notdeadyet: just because I have posted for 3 weeks in no way has any bearing on my ability to contribute to this conversation. Your logic is broken. To assume that posting for a specific period of time on this board in some way links up to the amount of knowledge of licensing boards is not accurate or likely. In fact, I know people who are on licensing boards, so I am educated to speak about this issue. Moreover, I'm going to an ivy medical so don't act like I'm stupid just because I've been on here for 3 weeks.

I agree with everything sanche has been saying. Bravo, at least someone on this board doesn't have paranoid schizophrenia coupled with OCD. The likelihood that a database would be implemeted is zip, and as I said, I don't condone lying, but you are sadly naive and mistaken if you honestly think that lying doesn't get through the cracks. It happens all the time everywhere, all times and all places. We don't live in a Utopia, hon. You also never talk in specifics. Instead, you talk in generalities. AT least give some concrete examples if you are going to spout hypotheticals about how people will have their licenses taken away for lying. Scare tactics aren't really going to keep the number of people applying to med school down....I know you think it might reduce the competition for you but it really won't. HTH
 
You guys are funny seriously. Who CARES!!! Let them lie on their apps WHO CARES!! The morality police is out in full force once again. If you seriously think that any safeguards in place for ANYTHING stops people from doing something they want to do, you are sadly mistaken. People still rob banks, steal from pension funds, cheat on spouses, lie on apps, and many many others. Yes it is wrong and it will never stop being wrong, but everyone will do something wrong and dishonest.

But to me if somebody lied about some classes they took and ended up being an amazing surgeon, I dont give two sh#ts about those clasees and they lie they told. Just my opinion.
 
appleluver7 said:
Notdeadyet: just because I have posted for 3 weeks in no way has any bearing on my ability to contribute to this conversation. Your logic is broken. To assume that posting for a specific period of time on this board in some way links up to the amount of knowledge of licensing boards is not accurate or likely. In fact, I know people who are on licensing boards, so I am educated to speak about this issue.
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I don't think Notdeadyet was referring to yoiur ability to contribute to the conversation, but more of your statement that Law2Doc reputation is to use scare tactics. However knowing people doesn't neccessarily mean being educated to speak about this issue. The best person to provide us this information would be an actual person on the licensing board, AMCAS, and adcoms. Nobody here can confirm or deny ones credentials, and thus your contributions and everyones contributions is taken as a grain of salt.

You have every right to contribute to this conversation, but you don't have a right per the terms of service of these forums to accuse someone of using "scare tactics". This is a forum, not a school yard playground.

appleluver7 said:
Moreover, I'm going to an ivy medical so don't act like I'm stupid just because I've been on here for 3 weeks.
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Based on your other threads, it was our impression that you are applying to med school since you are contemplating MD vs. MSTP, so not sure what you meant by this, or how an ivy league medical school means anything in terms of intelligence. This is somewhat irrelevant to this topic?

Really though, once the insults start coming out, and statements of credentials are thrown around, I think this topic has finally run its course. :thumbup: :rolleyes:
 
relentless11 said:
I don't think Notdeadyet was referring to yoiur ability to contribute to the conversation, but more of your statement that Law2Doc reputation is to use scare tactics. However knowing people doesn't neccessarily mean being educated to speak about this issue. The best person to provide us this information would be an actual person on the licensing board, AMCAS, and adcoms. Nobody here can confirm or deny ones credentials, and thus your contributions and everyones contributions is taken as a grain of salt.

You have every right to contribute to this conversation, but you don't have a right per the terms of service of these forums to accuse someone of using "scare tactics". This is a forum, not a school yard playground.



Based on your other threads, it was our impression that you are applying to med school since you are contemplating MD vs. MSTP, so not sure what you meant by this, or how an ivy league medical school means anything in terms of intelligence. This is somewhat irrelevant to this topic?

Really though, once the insults start coming out, and statements of credentials are thrown around, I think this topic has finally run its course. :thumbup: :rolleyes:
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I disagree. Notdeadyet questioned apple's ability, so a rebuttal was required. since applying to med school is an extreme circumstance, we all better be careful before notdeadyet gets extreme on us. :laugh: just teasing.
 
sanche60 said:
I disagree. Notdeadyet questioned apple's ability, so a rebuttal was required. since applying to med school is an extreme circumstance, we all better be careful before notdeadyet gets extreme on us. :laugh: just teasing.
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I think you mean eXXXtreme. The X's make it look better;).
 
relentless11 said:
I think you mean eXXXtreme. The X's make it look better;).
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I was saving that until he replied, you bastard. :laugh: Oh well,
EXXXTREMEEEEE!!!!!!!!!
 
I agree with aliziry. If you want to lie on your application, that's one less person that I have to compete against to get into medical school. However, any liars who do by chance get into med school, I don't want you to be part of my practice, and I wouldn't refer anyone to you. The profession of a physician is built on trust. If you are not trustworthy, don't enter the profession. If you do enter the profession, I hope you get caught.
 
jstuds_66 said:
I agree with aliziry. If you want to lie on your application, that's one less person that I have to compete against to get into medical school. However, any liars who do by chance get into med school, I don't want you to be part of my practice, and I wouldn't refer anyone to you. The profession of a physician is built on trust. If you are not trustworthy, don't enter the profession. If you do enter the profession, I hope you get caught.
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Shouldn't all people be held up to this standard though?

Physicians should be trustworthy, but just like any other decent human being!
 
The problem is, the kind of person who would lie about something serious on their AMCAS is not the kind of person who thinks that this is a wrong thing to do. They rationalize it by saying that it is a stretch of the truth, or an exaggeration, or that other applicants do the same thing, that is, if they attempt to rationalize it at all.

For me, personally, lying is too complicated. You have to remember what you told who and what the real facts are, and after a bunch of lying it is hard to remember what actually happened. I have enough things to worry about without trying to keep straight a bunch of lies. Also, we all have enough things to worry about without getting busted for falsifying information. I personally think that is a really STUPID reason to get kicked out of the medical profession because it is completely preventable on your part.
 
jackieMD2007 said:
The problem is, the kind of person who would lie about something serious on their AMCAS is not the kind of person who thinks that this is a wrong thing to do. They rationalize it by saying that it is a stretch of the truth, or an exaggeration, or that other applicants do the same thing, that is, if they attempt to rationalize it at all.

For me, personally, lying is too complicated. You have to remember what you told who and what the real facts are, and after a bunch of lying it is hard to remember what actually happened. I have enough things to worry about without trying to keep straight a bunch of lies. Also, we all have enough things to worry about without getting busted for falsifying information. I personally think that is a really STUPID reason to get kicked out of the medical profession because it is completely preventable on your part.
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I agree that lying is wrong. However, from the perspective of the person doing it they may rationalize it by saying that the screening process to get into med school is just that, a screening process. Therefore, they might believe which is better: for me to be a great doctor and help sick people or never get that chance because I didn't stretch the truth? I think it's more complicated that right vs. wrong. Most people agree it's not right to lie, but the real question is the whether this person really is a moral person or not in the first place. Just because he or she lied on that app doesn't determine who he or she is morally in totality.
 
appleluver7 said:
Law2Doc is known for his scare tactics. He loves to pretend that he is an expert on everything
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Dude, I don't recall ever trying to assassinate your character, yet you attack me here as well as stick my name in the title of another thread you started the other day. Feel free to disagree, but please cool it with the personal attacks. People are free to ignore or disagree with anything anyone on here says but character assassination is not an accepted form of debate on this forum. Grow up.
 
Law2Doc said:
Unless you were invisible or never mentioned it, someone will know you went to a school. You yourself know of this particular girl, I bet others do too. And not everyone loves someone who plays fast and loose with the rules. Once given that info, virtually anyone, let alone AMCAS or a licensing board, could call that school to check on the veracity of the mere fact as to whether she attended. You don't need her permission to learn that much.

One other point also sometimes brought up on these threads is that even if AMCAS or the licensing board doesn't do a great job of investigating, it is not inconceivable that a plaintiffs attorney in a malpractice suit down the road would do the job better. He would have incentive to show that this was a doctor prone to mediocrity in school, and thus should have been better supervised if not kept away from whatever procedure went bad. If you have enough PIs digging, odds are someone turns up something rotten.
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If only I had gotten here before you. I wanted to say that! lol AMCAS seems like they are as brutal as the RIAA or adobe going after poor little russianprogrammers with the DMCA.

Oh...I am standing by Law2Doc on this one. Aside from the fact that he has a law degree...meaning he has probably read at least a couple of case briefs on this area I just think it is generally a bad idea. Do I care if this girl does it? Not really.....not my life. Background checks can be next to nothing....aka make sure you weren't in prison and the likes or they could be real extreme government style. Twice I've gotten visits, not calls from people from the fbi asking me questions about our neighbor, whom was in that stage of the fbi. They even went to our high school and talked to old teachers. I highly doubt that anyone unless they were out to ruin your life for whatever reason would do this to you but you can always get a hell bent malpractice lawyer and a person willing to do anything to try and ruin you. Am I worried about this girl? Not really....if everything works out peachy then it'll kind of fade away....if not the punishment could be minor or it could ruin her life.
 
appleluver7 said:
Notdeadyet: just because I have posted for 3 weeks in no way has any bearing on my ability to contribute to this conversation. Your logic is broken.
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Sorry if I wasn't clear. But if you (and Sanche, I guess) reread the post, you'll see that I said "Don't try to sound so salty as to presume to know people's reputations."

This could be your 20th post. This could be your 3,020th. And your opinion about issues is just as valid either way. I'm just saying that if you're new somewhere, it's a little hard to have a well informed opinion of people you just met. That's all.

But your opinions on lying on the AMCAS are just as valid as mine or anyone's, regardless of how long you've been around.
 
sanche60 said:
I disagree. Notdeadyet questioned apple's ability, so a rebuttal was required.
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See above.

sanche60 said:
since applying to med school is an extreme circumstance, we all better be careful before notdeadyet gets extreme on us.
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The only Extreme I know is a type of pizza. Mmmmm... pizza...
 
Sorting through the hysteria:

There is the question of "what could happen" and the question of "what is likely to happen". Sure, if you took a single course at some local community college one summer, and happened to fail it, and never reported to AAMCAS, the chances of anyone finding out, or even caring, are remote. Same thing if you accidentally misstated the dates for one of your EC's or volunteering activities.

However, while one inch may be insignificant, many inches eventually turn into a mile, and you're in trouble. The act of deliberately not disclosing a whole year's worth of grades does not seem to pass the all important smell test to me, to the OP, or to many others for that matter. Yes, the consequences could be quite severe in this case, especially if the school were to find out while she was still enrolled. Highly unlikely to be an issue if found 20 years from now unless there were other problems. But, still not a chance worth taking, IMO.

As to what the OP should do about it: NOTHING. You have enough to do to take care of your own career to worry about someone else at this point.
 
Death by guillotine.

kicker123 said:
I just wanted to know what are the consequences for providing inaccurate information on the amcas and later getting caught... A classmate did not send in her 1st year transcript from one of her college in which she failed most of her classes in. Did you hear of any cases such as these or for providing wrong info..
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
And 12 years later we know that it’s extremely easy for them to find out which schools you went to, particularly if you used financial aid.
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Correct. Studentloanclearinghouse or something like that. Shows every school you received loans for.

I believe schools can still see every school you attended if you didn’t take out loans, but I’m not as sure about that one.
 
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RangerBob said:
Correct. Studentloanclearinghouse or something like that. Shows every school you received loans for.

I believe schools can still see every school you attended if you didn’t take out loans, but I’m not as sure about that one.
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National Student Clearinghouse. They can see if you were enrolled even if you didn't take out loans as long as the school participates in NSCH. There is also another site that allows you to search based on financial aid.

Now, if you're like me and went to a school for a semester that does not participate in NSCH and you didn't take out any loans for it, theoretically you might be able to get away with not listing it. BUT, there are other ways for them to find out. If you ever listed it with any other schools, etc., they can find out. I went to a school that isn't on NSCH and I paid for it in cash. They'd probably never find out. And I got an F in one of those courses that I took (I only went for one trimester), so I definitely didn't want to list it if I didn't have to.

But I did. And it hurt my GPA. But I still got 3 interviews out of 5 secondaries, so clearly it didn't hurt me too badly. It's just not worth having to look over your shoulder for the rest of your career.
 
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