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Constructive Service Credit (CSC) Quagmire

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threepeas

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Advice and Help Needed!!!
The Army GME office under the direction of COL Powers has summarily refused all CSC requests from MD/DO medical students with health related graduate degrees which is in grave departure from Congressional guidelines and past precedence. The exception for this years incoming intern class is the degree of MPH which will receive credit.

The only dialogue thus far has been with his Program Manager Susan Reed who has only provided inadequate explanations for the policy change. Janna Cox who has been the liaison in past years is out with an illness. I am not here to justify who should get credit but need help in how to deal with the problem.

Who on this forum has received CSC in the past and for what degree?
Any advice on how to deal with this injustice? Newspapers, JAG, consultant to the surgeon general's, etc.

Thanks for any input.
 

73BARMYPgsp

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Advice and Help Needed!!!
The Army GME office under the direction of COL Powers has summarily refused all CSC requests from MD/DO medical students with health related graduate degrees which is in grave departure from Congressional guidelines and past precedence. The exception for this years incoming intern class is the degree of MPH which will receive credit.

The only dialogue thus far has been with his Program Manager Susan Reed who has only provided inadequate explanations for the policy change. Janna Cox who has been the liaison in past years is out with an illness. I am not here to justify who should get credit but need help in how to deal with the problem.

Who on this forum has received CSC in the past and for what degree?
Any advice on how to deal with this injustice? Newspapers, JAG, consultant to the surgeon general's, etc.

Thanks for any input.

I have a Master's degree in counseling and I am now in a Clinical Psych PhD program (with another MS) and did not get credit for the first one.
 

threepeas

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I have a Master's degree in counseling and I am now in a Clinical Psych PhD program (with another MS) and did not get credit for the first one.

This is because your PhD trumps your MS degree and is in the same exact field.

My Master's in Physician Assistant wont give me credit because my MD degree trumps it.

My degree is that i was applying with was a M.S. in Physiology.

thanks for contributing.
 

73BARMYPgsp

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This is because your PhD trumps your MS degree and is in the same exact field.

My Master's in Physician Assistant wont give me credit because my MD degree trumps it.

My degree is that i was applying with was a M.S. in Physiology.

thanks for contributing.

I did not know that. Now I know why! :)
 

elderjack21

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Does constructive credit get you promoted to the next rank?
 

DogFaceMedic

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Advice and Help Needed!!!
The Army GME office under the direction of COL Powers has summarily refused all CSC requests from MD/DO medical students with health related graduate degrees which is in grave departure from Congressional guidelines and past precedence. The exception for this years incoming intern class is the degree of MPH which will receive credit.

The only dialogue thus far has been with his Program Manager Susan Reed who has only provided inadequate explanations for the policy change. Janna Cox who has been the liaison in past years is out with an illness. I am not here to justify who should get credit but need help in how to deal with the problem.

Who on this forum has received CSC in the past and for what degree?
Any advice on how to deal with this injustice? Newspapers, JAG, consultant to the surgeon general's, etc.

Thanks for any input.

Call your congressional office and explain that it contradicts the DoD Instruction 6000.13 paragraph 6.1.2.

And add that these policy changes of denying health professionals benefits is why people avoid or leave the service and are so resentful of poor leadership.
 

threepeas

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Does constructive credit get you promoted to the next rank?

yes.

for example when you start medical school you are an O1. you are promoted to O3 at graduation because 4 years of CSC are awarded for your MD/DO, etc.

In the past medical students with health related graduate degrees were given additional time/pay grade credit. usually 2 years for MS and 4 years for PhD.

In my scenario i would of graduated O3+2 years (+$400-500/month) and made O4 2 years faster. over the course of a 20 year career this can add up to $100K-$250K depending on ones situation, and not including investment interest.

This opportunity was voluntarily created by Congress and the DOD and has been simple to take advantage of as long as your degree was on the "acceptable" list and you filled out DD-214, mailed transcripts, and sent a JPEG pic of your diploma.
 

threepeas

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Call your congressional office and explain that it contradicts the DoD Instruction 6000.13 paragraph 6.1.2.

And add that these policy changes of denying health professionals benefits is why people avoid or leave the service and are so resentful of poor leadership.

Thank you for this direction. I will take your advice and report back.
 

phudmud

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I agree with dogface medic -- our local congressional reps may need to get involved. The army's decision to grant constructive service credit only to graduate degrees that shorten time in residency is not a stipulation of US Title 10, which defines how CSC is to be granted, nor is it a stipulation of DOD instruction 6000.13, which gives more details on the award of time in grade.

As for me, I followed-up for nearly 13 months to make sure things were going smoothly for the awarding of CSC, only to find out that the army lost my paperwork the week before the credit was to be awarded -- of course I later found out that that they denied everyone credit anyway, except those with the Master's of Public Health degree, which will shorten the PM residency by a single year.

I expected to get 4 years CSC (I have a Master's in neurophysiology and a Ph.D. in neuroscience and anatomy). I'm heading to a path residency with my trajectory targeted to neuropathology. Surely these degrees are germane to my "anticipated duty", which is what the regs say are the only stipulation. The way things were explained to me, even if I were going into neurology, neurosurgery, or psychiatry, I'd still get no CSC for a PhD in neuroscience this year. Total BS in my opinion. I plan on fighting this as long as it takes.

I know of one MD PHD at Walter Reed in pathology who did his PhD in biochemistry and got 4 years of CSC -- he was promoted to 04 during residency. Any advice he has I'll post on this site.
 

phudmud

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Forgot to mention one thing. For MD/DO PHD or MD/DO + any other degree, all the regulations are very clear about one thing. If the degrees were earned simultaneously, then constructive service credit cannot be awarded. Yes, it sucks for those of you who may have done it that way -- not me thank heavens. Just thought I'd mention that.
 

IgD

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I saw a LTCOL fresh out of residency who was selected as department head over a double boarded MAJ. There was a resident in my class who had academic problems, didn't get into medical school and had to complete a master's degree first. It was funny when he received an early promotion because of his master's experience. Sounds like you guys would disagree but I think that once you graduate medical school your rank should start at zero to prevent this type of problem from happening.
 

DogFaceMedic

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I saw a LTCOL fresh out of residency who was selected as department head over a double boarded MAJ. There was a resident in my class who had academic problems, didn't get into medical school and had to complete a master's degree first. It was funny when he received an early promotion because of his master's experience. Sounds like you guys would disagree but I think that once you graduate medical school your rank should start at zero to prevent this type of problem from happening.

It sounds like bad decisions, based on a single criteria. Do avoid bad decisions, eliminating the CSC would elminate an important incentive and benefit.
 

threepeas

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I saw a LTCOL fresh out of residency who was selected as department head over a double boarded MAJ. There was a resident in my class who had academic problems, didn't get into medical school and had to complete a master's degree first. It was funny when he received an early promotion because of his master's experience. Sounds like you guys would disagree but I think that once you graduate medical school your rank should start at zero to prevent this type of problem from happening.

The folks who started this thread wouldn't disagree. If they remove CSC I wouldn't complain. But that is not the issue.

Our 2008 Intern class LOI specifically address CSC in such a way that anyone with with a health related MS or PhD would be eligible for credit. This is in addition to DOD-Congressional guidelines and past precedence.

They need to change the regs or follow them.
 
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elderjack21

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They need to change the regs or follow them.

They need to follow them if that is what they promised you. I have seen some legal cases on the web regarding stuff like this. A long time ago, HPSP time was counted for time in service (I think), then they changed the policy and started to deny those who had already signed the old contract their time in service. They got a lawyer and had a case presented...not sure what the outcome was, but that may be another route to go if there are a few of you in the same boat.

Congressmen should be able to easily file an inquiry into the problem as well. I responded to several congressional inquiries in my time in the army. Make sure you provide your congressman's (or woman's) office with a well written document that clearly states the problem and references the applicable DoD/DA policy on the issue as well as the individual COL **** who is denying your CSC. Make it as easy as possible for them to follow up on, because I promise you they won't put much effort into it if you don't give them all the facts.

What will happen is this. A staffer will review it, maybe the Congressman's Chief of Staff will approve some form of inquiry, that staffer will take what you wrote, probably paste and copy if it all possible (so offer to send it in electronic form). They will fax it to the applicable Army office and give them a deadline to respond. The Army side will try to make up some sort of excuse or justification, or they will fold and say they made a mistake and fix the problem.
 

threepeas

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Thanks for all the advice. If anyone has any experience with this matter in particular or something similar please add your input.
 

phudmud

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For the record, no one 'promised' us constructive service credit, but there is a very clear message sent to us from army GME that a master's and/or PhD degree should get you some time in grade as long as the degrees are in a health professions related field.

I'd hate to go down the road of getting a congressional person involved, but the DOD may leave me no choice considering this decision is worth 250K or more over a twenty year career.
 

IgD

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In the Navy there is a BCNR (Board of Correction for Naval Records) that can fix issues like that. You have to submit your request in writing and provide evidence that a mistake was made. The Army has an equivalent for this...
 

GeoLeoX

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I know of one MD PHD at Walter Reed in pathology who did his PhD in biochemistry and got 4 years of CSC -- he was promoted to 04 during residency. Any advice he has I'll post on this site.


Here I am. Sorry, I haven't been around for a while. I really don't have much to contribute except the following:

1. CSC only counts toward time in grade - you do not get time in service. That's confusing and perhaps I am using the wrong terminology but the bottom line is this: I graduated in 2004 and got 4 yrs CSC. That moved back my date of rank for O-3 to 2000 meaning that I was eligible for O-4 in 2006 (which I got). I DID NOT get paid as a O-3 with 4 more years than my colleagues.

2. I guess that it was easier for me back in the day. I sent Janna Cox an email and a notarized copy of my diploma, the stars aligned, and my orders to report for residency (and my subsequent ORB) had the date rolled back 4 years.

3. Things have changed. According to the brief I had yesterday in my "Transition to Practice" training it used to be up to GME to decide who got CSC and who didn't. It used to be that 90% of people who petitioned to get CSC were awarded it. Now a bunch of people have stuck their noses into the mix (i.e., HRC) and the rate of approval of CSC has dropped to more like 30%. This sucks for so many reasons - I was hoping to get CSC for the CCC required for promotion to O-5 (it used to be called Officer Advanced Course and constructive credit was doled out freely). Now I am looking at the prospect of an intensive correspondence course followed by 6 weeks in San Antonio. Guess what? That doesn't motivate me to stay in.

There is a new philosophy that the people who are in are dispensable and that the Army should woo new recruits at our expense (with a $20k signing bonus no less). I don't think that it will take much figurin' to see what that will do to retention.

One other thing - I know of someone who took time off of HPSP to get a Ph.D. Actually, he got a M.S. and wanted to continue his research, but the Army would only let him if he was able to get a degree. Which he did. The downside is because he did it while he was under contract his request for CSC was denied. However, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. He has found a sympathetic JAG attorney who is helping to get the CSC and he will likely succeed. Now here's the payback. Not only will he get the CSC but he should also get the pay he was otherwise denied as a result of not getting the CSC in a timely fashion. If you are at a post now I would recommend making an appointment with JAG to see if they can help you out.

Welcome to the quagmire.
 

GeoLeoX

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In my scenario i would of graduated O3+2 years (+$400-500/month) and made O4 2 years faster. over the course of a 20 year career this can add up to $100K-$250K depending on ones situation, and not including investment interest.

See my above post to clarify this. With CSC you DO NOT get O-3 +2 years pay when you graduate medical school. You get O-3 with 0 years. What you do get is your date of rank rolled back two years. As a result you are in zone for promotion two years earlier than your peers.
 

phudmud

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Thanks GeoLeoX. I did my PhD and Master's before getting anywhere near the army, so I hope that they will see the merits of me getting CSC.

I was unaware that we didn't get the extra pay with time in grade. I must have gotten bad info somewhere along the line. Nonetheless, getting to O4 4 years sooner is nice, and there must be a big pay increase when you make that jump.

Yes, the Office of the Surgeon General secretary Susan Reed (Janna Cox is gone) basically said that there is to be no more CSC -- what clowns! AMEDD retention is horrible, and we can't even get people to sign up for HPSP anymore. Any logical person would see that giving CSC were it is deserved would help moral and retention. Obviously common sense is a rare commodity with army brass. And yes, the 20K bonus they are now giving out will do nothing for retention.

What really pisses me off is that a friend of mine got CSC for the same PhD that I have when he joined the medical service corps to study traumatic brain injury as a basic science researcher. He joined the army as an O3. I have the same degree, and a MD and Master's degree, and I get NOTHING. Total BS in my opinion.

My cousin is an Air Force JAG and he thinks I might have some luck with a review board, but he says the fight will be long, the bureaucracy brutal, and the process demoralizing. I can hardly wait to start the process.
 

phudmud

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GeoLeoX

At least you're getting to do a fellowship in molecular path. I want neuropath, but the army isn't likely to let me do it, especially with one of the residents a Madigan starting in 2010 (maybe). What's more, since the army took 11 path residents this year, there will be as a percentage far fewer path residents selected to train in fellowship when my class graduates in 2012. Of course it also won't help me when AFIP goes into the toilet in 2011, which is where the fellowship is currently located. Damn, I haven't in started with the army and my moral is total ****.
 

GeoLeoX

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Thanks GeoLeoX. I did my PhD and Master's before getting anywhere near the army, so I hope that they will see the merits of me getting CSC.[/QUOTE}

Yeah, as I mentioned when we spoke last year so did I.

I was unaware that we didn't get the extra pay with time in grade. I must have gotten bad info somewhere along the line. Nonetheless, getting to O4 4 years sooner is nice, and there must be a big pay increase when you make that jump.

I went from an O-3 under 2 to an O-4 over two. Since it's a matter of public record I am not shy in saying that it was a difference of almost $1000/mo.

Yes, the Office of the Surgeon General secretary Susan Reed (Janna Cox is gone) basically said that there is to be no more CSC -- what clowns! AMEDD retention is horrible, and we can't even get people to sign up for HPSP anymore. Any logical person would see that giving CSC were it is deserved would help moral and retention. Obviously common sense is a rare commodity with army brass. And yes, the 20K bonus they are now giving out will do nothing for retention.

You know I'm with you there.

My cousin is an Air Force JAG and he thinks I might have some luck with a review board, but he says the fight will be long, the bureaucracy brutal, and the process demoralizing. I can hardly wait to start the process.

My aforementioned colleague graduated from residency in 2004 and is still fighting. I consider myself very lucky and I wish some of that luck on you. I don't read these fora too often so if you need anything else I am in Outlook.
 

phudmud

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GeoLeoX wrote

"My aforementioned colleague graduated from residency in 2004 and is still fighting. I consider myself very lucky and I wish some of that luck on you. I don't read these fora too often so if you need anything else I am in Outlook."


I'm no mathematician, but isn't that 4 years? That's INSANE! And yes, you're definitely lucky that things worked out for you the way they did.

By the way, did I mention that Susan Reed equated my degree with underwater basket weaving? That happened 5 minutes after she informed me that her office lost my CSC paperwork the week before Col Powers made his decision to deny everyone's application. What a piece of work.

I can only encourage people to STAY AWAY FROM HPSP and just take out the loans. Actually, when you think about it, HPSP should be changed to HPLP (Health Professions Loan Program) because the loss of future earnings as an attending are much more than the money the army pays for med school, books, and stipend. Okay, now I'm ranting and need to chill before I blow a head gasket.

What makes all of this more painful is that UPenn offered me a path residency in whatever I wanted to do, AP/CP/NP or AP/NP, which would have given me some control of my life for the next 4 to 6 years.
 
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GeoLeoX

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GeoLeoX

At least you're getting to do a fellowship in molecular path. I want neuropath, but the army isn't likely to let me do it, especially with one of the residents a Madigan starting in 2010 (maybe). What's more, since the army took 11 path residents this year, there will be as a percentage far fewer path residents selected to train in fellowship when my class graduates in 2012. Of course it also won't help me when AFIP goes into the toilet in 2011, which is where the fellowship is currently located. Damn, I haven't in started with the army and my moral is total ****.

yeah, about that... here's another kick in the pants about the military. a joint selection board meets (the same one as for residencies) and decides who gets fellowships. i have been told that a shadowy point system that no one is eager to elucidate for me is used to determine "best qualified". i apparently was not "best qualified". over 15 years of research experience, most of those in molecular pathology and related fields, a PhD with postdoctoral experience, a half dozen publications, abstracts/posters out the yin-yang, multiple reseach awards and i lost to someone with no experience who decided on a whim to apply and simply graduated a year before me. boo hoo, me. i will apply again for 2010 and if i get screwed again it's definitely "4 and the door" for me.

your madigan man - i don't know what's to become of that. it's up to the consultant and with the way retention is bombing i seriously doubt she is going to let a board-certified pathologist "hang out" at the FIP (which, by the way she wants leveled) for a year. the fellowship at AFIP is essentially dead, they did not pick up someone after Matt left last year. However, with only two neuropathologists in the Army both close to retirement your chances may not be as bad as you think.

i am not sure what you mean about the percentage of people training being different because of picking up 11 residents. i know that's a bit more than previously but the army changes their needs yearly and may train more in fellowships if they need more. the one thing that i have learned in my residency is that things are constantly changing.
 

delicatefade

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Holy cow. I'm glad I saw this thread.

Is there a way to tell on your orders if you got the CSC??? I applied for CSC during my FYGME application (for my master's degree).

There is a line on my orders that states "DOR is to be adjusted based on Const Credit of 04 YRS, 00 MOS, 00 DAYS."

Did I get the CSC or was I denied too?
 

delicatefade

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Also can someone clarify the difference between

1. Time in grade
2. Time in service

Sounds like one affects your pay and one affects your time until promotion (which then affects your pay).
 

DogFaceMedic

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Also can someone clarify the difference between

1. Time in grade
2. Time in service

Sounds like one affects your pay and one affects your time until promotion (which then affects your pay).

You get 4 yrs for med school. So, it looks like nothing for MS. You can call and ask for reason, or await re-consideration boards, or call congressional rep. If you don't ask then the default is no. I always ask.

TIG is time in the rank and is towards promotion. TIS is total time in the military and matters for years for pay.
 

GeoLeoX

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You get 4 yrs for med school. So, it looks like nothing for MS.

actually, it looks more like he got 4 years for a MS (or whatever was used to establish CSC). you get nothing for medical school.everyone out of medical school is O-3 with no years (unless you are prior service then you already would know more about this than me). this is exactly what was stated in my orders. and let's be clear - we are talking specifically about what date you have on your ORB as the date that you pinned on O-3 and we are talking about the Army. i cannot comment on anything else except from secondhand sources (and i do know a navy physician who got 5 years of CSC for a Ph.D. and another army physician who got 4 years for a Ph.D.). that is because the effect of constructive service credit as we are discussing here is rolling back your date of record. for example, i got 4 years of constructive service credit for a Ph.D. in biochemistry. i graduated from medical school in 2004. my date of record for O-3 was set as 2000 when i graduated from medical school based on 4 yrs of CSC. this means that i was eligible for O-4 in 2006 (and will be eligible for O-5 in 2012).

TIG is time in the rank and is towards promotion. TIS is total time in the military and matters for years for pay.

i couldn't have stated it more clearly. so, with 4 years of CSC you get 4 years toward TIG, but nothing for TIS. also to add with CSC you DO NOT get years toward retirement or payback or anything else except for added years you wore O-3 toward when you will be eligible for promotion.

sorry if this was excessively verbose - i'm a little tired.

hope this clarifies,

X
 

delicatefade

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I find it hard to believe that I got 4 years for a master's.

The question can be solved easily. Look at my above post and see the statement in quotes.

Do any incoming interns have a similar statement in their orders???

If so, this is just the 4 years time in grade awarded for graduating MD/DO, which makes sense because we are typically eligible for MAJ after 6 years instead of 10 for regular Army.
 

GeoLeoX

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I find it hard to believe that I got 4 years for a master's.

The question can be solved easily. Look at my above post and see the statement in quotes.

Do any incoming interns have a similar statement in their orders???

If so, this is just the 4 years time in grade awarded for graduating MD/DO, which makes sense because we are typically eligible for MAJ after 6 years instead of 10 for regular Army.

i stand corrected and apologize to the both of you for the confusion. i just reviewed my orders and they say "DOR IS TO BE ADJUSTED BASED ON CONSTRUCTIVE CREDIT OF 08-00-00"
 

phudmud

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your madigan man - i don't know what's to become of that. it's up to the consultant and with the way retention is bombing i seriously doubt she is going to let a board-certified pathologist "hang out" at the FIP (which, by the way she wants leveled) for a year. the fellowship at AFIP is essentially dead, they did not pick up someone after Matt left last year. However, with only two neuropathologists in the Army both close to retirement your chances may not be as bad as you think.

GeoLeoX -- What do you mean by "you're madigan man - I don't know what's to become of that . . ." Are you suggesting that Madigan's path program could be cut?

As far as neuropath in the Army is concerned, I hope you're right about the need with the other folks retiring. Despite that, I've heard that Dr. Cruthers is not too keen on the neuropath fellowship anyway.

That sucks about your molecular path fellowship. I thought you had it in the bag. Amazing that they selected someone over you. Like you said, I can't imagine anyone being more qualified to do it that yourself, in the army or out for that matter.

Now back to CSC. We're planning on organizing a major ruckus with the intern class. Hopefully a group effort will be more effective than one or two people complaining about this injustice.
 

DrBloodmoney

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GeoLeoX -- What do you mean by "you're madigan man - I don't know what's to become of that . . ." Are you suggesting that Madigan's path program could be cut?

As far as neuropath in the Army is concerned, I hope you're right about the need with the other folks retiring. Despite that, I've heard that Dr. Cruthers is not too keen on the neuropath fellowship anyway.

AFIP bagged all of their formerly ACGME-accredited fellowships and are not currently training any NP fellows. All path fellowships of the future (until they get a DP fellowship up at WRAMC and fellowships at whatever phoenix rises from the ashes of the AFIP) will be civilian. This is not a bad thing.
 

GeoLeoX

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GeoLeoX -- What do you mean by "you're madigan man - I don't know what's to become of that . . ." Are you suggesting that Madigan's path program could be cut?

no, i said "your man" not "you're man". sorry, it's a weird vernacular thing. i did not mean anything about the madigan program - it is strong. i meant that the individual we are discussing may not be able to do what he wants to do.

sorry to hijack the thread - good luck to all on the CSC and it wouldn't hurt to get some legal counsel when you get to your station.

G
 
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phudmud

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Col Powers has indicated by telephone today that no one (except the MPH'ers) will get CSC from him -- case closed.

His reasons remain as previously posted, although he added a new one today. Apparently he also thinks that being "in the zone" too soon will hurt chances for promotion, and therefore his action will protect us from that possibility.

He also claims that by being promoted too early we are at the same rank as our program directors, which may make us susceptible to being selected for assignments that we lack the training for. He cited on example of a fellow at 04 early because of CSC, but was not up to the tasks assigned to 04s and faltered. Sounds like a case of one bad apple ruining it for the rest of us.

He said to appeal, and that the appeals board is usually favorable to our situation.
 

delicatefade

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Thank you for doing this. Please keep us updated on the appeals process.
 

GeoLeoX

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Col Powers has indicated by telephone today that no one (except the MPH'ers) will get CSC from him -- case closed.

His reasons remain as previously posted, although he added a new one today. Apparently he also thinks that being "in the zone" too soon will hurt chances for promotion, and therefore his action will protect us from that possibility.

He also claims that by being promoted too early we are at the same rank as our program directors, which may make us susceptible to being selected for assignments that we lack the training for. He cited on example of a fellow at 04 early because of CSC, but was not up to the tasks assigned to 04s and faltered. Sounds like a case of one bad apple ruining it for the rest of us.

He said to appeal, and that the appeals board is usually favorable to our situation.

I completely agree with the appeal and I completely disagree with the rationalization for not granting CSC.

There is a reason for CSC. It's not given because you won a lottery or found a lucky talisman. CSC is given to recognize the fact that you have advanced experience germane to the job that you have been hired by the military to do. And it takes time to gather that experience. Perhaps I have not been in the military as long as someone with the same rank as me, but to essentially say that I have less experience in my field or a field related to mine is absolutely absurd and patently false.

I have no idea what is meant by "being in the zone too early can hurt your chances for promotion". Also, untrue. To be promoted to the rank of O-4 in the medical corps you need a pulse and not much more. I know what is expected of me to reach O-5 and that, too is easily achievable. By the time I am in the zone for O-5 I will have been the medical director of a portion of the department responsible for a least a half dozen employees and a sizable budget. I know that I need to go to advanced camp. It's not that hard.

I would have like to have heard the example of an O-4 not living up to "not up to the tasks assigned to 04s". This isn't the line. This is the medical corps. The "tasks assigned to an O-4" such as myself are the tasks assigned to an O-3 and an O-5 and an O-6 resident for that matter are all the same as they are all residents. The same specious reasoning could hold for a prior service infantry officer who enters medical school. When that officer finishes medical school should the prior service be erased? How does that person know more about the "tasks assigned" than a fellow recent medical school graduate who has no prior service? Another example - I am in a combined residency program with Navy officers. Most of them have been in service longer than the Army residents. Why is it not a problem for them to uniformly outrank us? Do you think that they have particularly difficult residencies and that everyone goes easier on the Army people because they lack "experience"?

And the line about residents outranking the program directors? If you are in a program with an O-4 as your residency director you should look carefully at what that program has for you. That's not to say that an O-4 can't do the job, but for the most part residency director is an O-5 or above position. It almost has to be if you need someone pulling for you against other staff and hospital administration.

This stuff boils my blood. I am glad that I was granted my CSC under more lenient guidelines because if I was in your shoes I would be livid.

Best of luck and if anyone ever needs someone to bat for the cause of CSC for advanced degrees drop me a line.
 

phudmud

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GeoLeoX, I am livid.


To those of you reading this thread, here's some advice I received from an 04 in the navy. He recommends sending an email and hard copy letter to your Congressional leadership, an action which should trigger what's called a "Congressional Inquiry". He claims that this inquiry will lead to fairly intense pressure being placed on military leadership to provide an explanation of the CSC denial reasoning and may rectify the situation according to current CSC guidelines. He recommends that the letter contain information about CSC, why you applied for credit, and how this decision has hurt moral and maybe long-term retention in the service. He says that this letter should be sent ASAP.

According to this fellow, Congressional inquiry's really jab people in the ribs, especially when there is the possibility of soldiers being screwed during war time -- just think back to the Walter Reed fiasco as an example.

I hope this helps.
 

alpha62

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Keep bugging them at DA. I made a point to keep sending emails and faxing them about every other day about the CC.

I got my CC upgraded about 3 times in the 3 last years I was in.

Try and remember the clowns that do this are pissing their pants that they'll actually one day get pulled up to go to Iraq too and the last thing they want is any light put on them to help make the call at the next office deployment levy party at Alexandra, Va.

That, and they are like any other cubicle clown, they just want their desk cleared so they can make happy hour by 5 pm.
 

73BARMYPgsp

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yes.

for example when you start medical school you are an O1. you are promoted to O3 at graduation because 4 years of CSC are awarded for your MD/DO, etc.

In the past medical students with health related graduate degrees were given additional time/pay grade credit. usually 2 years for MS and 4 years for PhD.

In my scenario i would of graduated O3+2 years (+$400-500/month) and made O4 2 years faster. over the course of a 20 year career this can add up to $100K-$250K depending on ones situation, and not including investment interest.

This opportunity was voluntarily created by Congress and the DOD and has been simple to take advantage of as long as your degree was on the "acceptable" list and you filled out DD-214, mailed transcripts, and sent a JPEG pic of your diploma.

This is the post that makes me wonder if my MA in counseling is worth trying to get credit for. It sounds like I could reach MAJ faster, if I am reading your post correctly. I have a PhD, (I will have after internship, that is) but also a prior, related masters degree (which I completed while I was enlisted). When I begin my ADSO, should I look into it?
 

DogFaceMedic

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DoD maybe another option to put pressure on this jealous old COL who thinks only MPH's are worthy of some divine grace. Although getting congressional reps involved early works very well, and I concur with above recommendation.

DoD bureaucrats get very annoyed when the services ignore the DoD Instructions, as this COL clearly is. He cannot even pretend to be obeying the intent of either DoD or Army regs. So, inform the DoD office with HPSP oversight of the problem.

Two inter-related but separate problems: 1. COL is ignoring DoD and Army policy on CSC. 2. There are poor command choices based solely on rank. Problem 1 is a problem in the COL's limbic system. Problem 2 is not a problem of HPSP, but of poor leadership selection. Leadership in the medical corps is not determined by rank, but by medical ability and experience. Unfortunately, lazy bureaucrats in uniform or slovenly civilians choose leaders based on DOR because it's easy and avoids controversy.

If interested I can spend some time and find the direct office to contact in DoD. Does anyone out there want that info?
 

DogFaceMedic

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This is the post that makes me wonder if my MA in counseling is worth trying to get credit for. It sounds like I could reach MAJ faster, if I am reading your post correctly. I have a PhD, (I will have after internship, that is) but also a prior, related masters degree (which I completed while I was enlisted). When I begin my ADSO, should I look into it?

You posted just before I did.

The answer is yes. If you do nothing the answer is default no, so you have nothing to lose. If you fail on first go around, try again with board of corrections in the future.
 

73BARMYPgsp

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Also can someone clarify the difference between

1. Time in grade
2. Time in service

Sounds like one affects your pay and one affects your time until promotion (which then affects your pay).

To clarify a little further (althoug it has sort of been answered) BOTH TIG and TIS are related to your promotion. If you look at the requirements for the next rank (whatever that happens to be) it will give values for both of them. If you get promoted when your secondary window opens up, (secondary=early, primary=on time) you got a waiver for one of them, which I believe is automatic.
 

73BARMYPgsp

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You posted just before I did.

The answer is yes. If you do nothing the answer is default no, so you have nothing to lose. If you fail on first go around, try again with board of corrections in the future.

Great! Now can you give me an idea of the who/what/where/how to start the process of getting the credit? PM if it is better.
 

threepeas

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COL Powers logic for granting MPH credit is that this year in residency does not have to be repeated/performed when in a preventive medicine residency b/c they all have to do a MPH year. there residency would be one year shorter so he is giving back the years worth of rank/time.

the problem is they gave everyone with a MPH credit regardless of their residency with the logic that someone currently receiving credit but not in preventive medicine "might" go back for a second residency and choose preventive medicine. bog-***.
 

DogFaceMedic

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COL Powers logic for granting MPH credit is that this year in residency does not have to be repeated/performed when in a preventive medicine residency b/c they all have to do a MPH year. there residency would be one year shorter so he is giving back the years worth of rank/time.

the problem is they gave everyone with a MPH credit regardless of their residency with the logic that someone currently receiving credit but not in preventive medicine "might" go back for a second residency and choose preventive medicine. bog-***.

I'm certain his theory is very eloquently defended -- albeit wrong. Nonetheless he is not SecDef. Let me guess he is a PMR guy with MPH.
 

DogFaceMedic

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Great! Now can you give me an idea of the who/what/where/how to start the process of getting the credit? PM if it is better.

Correction board or initial application? The HRC website should have info on board of corrections (sounds like a prison). The HPSP is done at the same time as commission application in late 4th yr. But, I'm not the authority and the procedures can change a bit each year, and I don't make the rules -- which is too bad in itself, I'd make us all COLs.
 

delicatefade

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First email to GME secretary 4/14
Response: *crickets*

Second email to GME secretary 4/16
Response: *crickets*

Phone call to GME secretart 4/17
Response: "The decision comes fromt the colonel and he is not here right now. Let me take your name and I'll see if the colonel will give a reason or if he will talk to you."
 

delicatefade

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Response via email: The COL says that your MS was not awarded CSC because it does not allow you to finish your training early.

Looks like this is the official line from the GME Office. This requirement is mentioned nowhere in the Army regs. As noted above, the reasoning breaks down if it is true that any incoming intern with an MPH was awarded the CSC but is not going into preventive medicine because they can't finish their training early either.
 

phudmud

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I recently discovered that the Navy granted CSC to their HPSPer's. I mentioned this fact to Susan Reed. Her responses:

"all branches should be following the same regulations"

my response:

"exactly"

What came of that exchange:

nothing.
 

delicatefade

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Response from OTSG for repeated requests for an explanation in writing as to why CSC was denied in case this is needed for the appeals process.

*crickets*

It's going to be a long road people.
 
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