Consulting

[Lawpy]

What is it with medical students and consulting? Everyone I know couldn't wait to leave firms like McKinsey, BCG, Bain after a few years including my own brother. They work you insanely hard, the travel schedule can be brutal, and lots of advising and not much doing.

I honestly have no clue. I'd rather work 100 hours/week in a malignant clinical site than do consulting

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[rustymuffin]

Incoming M0 at a top TX school with a vague interest in healthcare consulting here, recently I've been feeling major FOMO watching all of my friends in tech/business/consulting land six figure packages right out of undergrad. Overall I'm glad I chose medicine but I can't help but feel a little bitter knowing that at 30, these people will have stable careers and nearly a million in the bank while my net worth will be in the negative hundreds of thousands and I'll be working like a dog for the privilege. I wish I took a gap year or two to try consulting after graduation, but I had tunnel vision for applying to med school and by the time I had all of those obligations wrapped up my professional resume wasn't competitive for those roles anymore.

Going forward, I want to try for a surgical subspecialty and based on my school's match history and my own academic record, I'm pretty confident I can land something if I try. I also did some research and I found out that MBB have decent recruitment opportunities at places like UTSW and the TMC (Baylor) and I'm wondering if I should try to get into one of their gap year programs later to get a taste for healthcare consulting/make connections/get some money in the bank. Is there actually a benefit to those programs and would doing one significantly hurt my residency application? I've heard that doing that instead of a research year might signal to PD's that you're not serious about medicine, especially in the more competitive fields. Right now I'm 99% sure that I want to do a residency and practice clinical medicine before exploring other opportunities, but I would like to see if I'm missing out on any unique and lucrative MD-exclusive career paths through consulting.

 

[efle]

Incoming M0 at a top TX school with a vague interest in healthcare consulting here, recently I've been feeling major FOMO watching all of my friends in tech/business/consulting land six figure packages right out of undergrad. Overall I'm glad I chose medicine but I can't help but feel a little bitter knowing that at 30, these people will have stable careers and nearly a million in the bank while my net worth will be in the negative hundreds of thousands and I'll be working like a dog for the privilege. I wish I took a gap year or two to try consulting after graduation, but I had tunnel vision for applying to med school and by the time I had all of those obligations wrapped up my professional resume wasn't competitive for those roles anymore.

Going forward, I want to try for a surgical subspecialty and based on my school's match history and my own academic record, I'm pretty confident I can land something if I try. I also did some research and I found out that MBB have decent recruitment opportunities at places like UTSW and the TMC (Baylor) and I'm wondering if I should try to get into one of their gap year programs later to get a taste for healthcare consulting/make connections/get some money in the bank. Is there actually a benefit to those programs and would doing one significantly hurt my residency application? I've heard that doing that instead of a research year might signal to PD's that you're not serious about medicine, especially in the more competitive fields. Right now I'm 99% sure that I want to do a residency and practice clinical medicine before exploring other opportunities, but I would like to see if I'm missing out on any unique and lucrative MD-exclusive career paths through consulting.

Do the residency first and then decide between attending practice versus exiting into the healthcare consulting ratrace. 99% of the time you'll prefer the attending gig.

 

[rustymuffin]

Do the residency first and then decide between attending practice versus exiting into the healthcare consulting ratrace. 99% of the time you'll prefer the attending gig.

Makes sense, I have zero doubt that a career in clinical medicine will pay off in the long run, especially in a surgical subspecialty. I think it's just seeing my friends making so much money in other fields has me looking for ways to make a quick buck before the attending paycheck hits in my mid 30s. Can't say I wasn't warned - everyone from my family to friends already in medical school told me that it SUCKS to go through your twenties without disposable income and that's starting to feel real for me now.

 

[efle]

Makes sense, I have zero doubt that a career in clinical medicine will pay off in the long run, especially in a surgical subspecialty. I think it's just seeing my friends making so much money in other fields has me looking for ways to make a quick buck before the attending paycheck hits in my mid 30s. Can't say I wasn't warned - everyone from my family to friends already in medical school told me that it SUCKS to go through your twenties without disposable income and that's starting to feel real for me now.

Yeah you have to think of it as an investment. The numbers people throw around on here for other fields are also ridiculous. Everyone thinks if theyd done computer science or consulting theyd be making 500k with good lifestyle in their 30s. That's way more common in medicine

 

[Redpancreas]

yea, don't believe it until its in writing. ive learned that the hard way

same

 

[Redpancreas]

Makes sense, I have zero doubt that a career in clinical medicine will pay off in the long run, especially in a surgical subspecialty. I think it's just seeing my friends making so much money in other fields has me looking for ways to make a quick buck before the attending paycheck hits in my mid 30s. Can't say I wasn't warned - everyone from my family to friends already in medical school told me that it SUCKS to go through your twenties without disposable income and that's starting to feel real for me now.

Moonlighting and getting lucky (keyword) trading commodities can do it. And yes, we were all warned. Many fields like IM subspecialties, Radiology/Anesthesia, etc. offer very competitive salaries and aren't "second tier" to surgical subspecialties speaking strictly income-wise. You should do a surgical subspecialty if you can tolerate it long term and think that's the area you can think you can do the most good in which I presume you have already decided you can.

 

[Iamnew2]

Yeah you have to think of it as an investment. The numbers people throw around on here for other fields are also ridiculous. Everyone thinks if theyd done computer science or consulting theyd be making 500k with good lifestyle in their 30s. That's way more common in medicine

I agree. While I know that everyone throws out these massive packages the reality is that very few people in consulting are having "millions in the bank" and while the potential 6 fig package is nice initially it stagnates quickly. I give the example of my former husband becasue it applies - he has a phd/mba and a base in the 160's plus bonus. while that's nice that base doesn't go up much except for a yearly raise. I made nothing or next to nothing during residency - as an attending, I am in the 500-600k in my current gig with a reasonable schedule. Most people in consulting are in the mid 100-200 range. Sure for those that hit it big some people will make millions, etc Some people will also be Brad Pitt or Mark Zuckerberg and make millions - but it's not the majority.

 

[Iamnew2]

Makes sense, I have zero doubt that a career in clinical medicine will pay off in the long run, especially in a surgical subspecialty. I think it's just seeing my friends making so much money in other fields has me looking for ways to make a quick buck before the attending paycheck hits in my mid 30s. Can't say I wasn't warned - everyone from my family to friends already in medical school told me that it SUCKS to go through your twenties without disposable income and that's starting to feel real for me now.

I do think that you over estimate what your friends in other fields are making. While I agree it blows hard that a large portion of our 20's is spent broke and tired/studying the vast majority of doctors win out long term - attendingship (I know that's not a word!) truly does make life so much better. And in general - you get to be the boss to a large extent. I don't discourage people from trying other things out - I certainly did. But there are few fields out there that can truly match the income potential and stability of medicine. The problem is that we see our colleagues/friends/family members get out of undergrad (and it is a gross over estimation that all tech/business people make 6 figs from undergard - my family/former husband/soon to be husband are all in tech/business, with good degrees and reasonable experience and not a single one of them came out of undergrad with a 6 figure deal - that is not the typical thing) and I know a lot of people who did undergrad --> MBA at good solid places, and most of them did not get a 6 fig deal out of that training. There are outliers of course and you will hear about those because those are the ones that flash their salaries and success - but for everyone one of those, there are 100 who make far far less.

I do think though that undergrad should be done away for doctors - that is a massive waste of time. Ugh.

 

[Wordead]

What is it with medical students and consulting? Everyone I know couldn't wait to leave firms like McKinsey, BCG, Bain after a few years including my own brother. They work you insanely hard, the travel schedule can be brutal, and lots of advising and not much doing.

Because people in medicine grossly overestimate themselves. Thats why M1s all think they can do a surgical subspecialty, doctors all think they are financially literate.

I did 2 years in consulting though not at one of the big firms - and frankly most people in medicine don't have the soft skills to succeed in consulting. Myself included. It's not an easy field to succeed in.

 

[rustymuffin]

Thanks for sharing your experiences, I feel a little better hearing that it all works out in the end. Like I said I'm overall secure in my decision to go to med school because working with patients is what I see myself doing 10, 20 years from now and it might be premature to say but I don't think I'd find that gratification in any other career.

I do want to point out that tech and finance can be absolutely bonkers from a purely financial standpoint. One of my closest friends is starting at Google as a software developer and he's been pretty open about his numbers. Base salary is close to 150K, signing bonus was a quarter of that, a potential performance based bonus also in the tens of thousands, and over 200K in stock distributed over 4 years. Straight out of undergrad and those numbers are only going to increase every year. He absolutely will have a million in the bank by 30 if not earlier, and I imagine that's similar at all of the FAANG-tier companies. I also have friends doing quantitative finance and algo-trading in places like Chicago and New York (Citadel, Optiver, etc). I won't even go into those numbers but feel free to look those starting comp packages up if you want to feel sad Absolutely correct that these are top percentile jobs in high cost of living areas with crazy work hours and performance expectations, but they do exist and aren't as uncommon as you would expect.

 

[Iamnew2]

Thanks for sharing your experiences, I feel a little better hearing that it all works out in the end. Like I said I'm overall secure in my decision to go to med school because working with patients is what I see myself doing 10, 20 years from now and it might be premature to say but I don't think I'd find that gratification in any other career.

I do want to point out that tech and finance can be absolutely bonkers from a purely financial standpoint. One of my closest friends is starting at Google as a software developer and he's been pretty open about his numbers. Base salary is close to 150K, signing bonus was a quarter of that, a potential performance based bonus also in the tens of thousands, and over 200K in stock distributed over 4 years. Straight out of undergrad and those numbers are only going to increase every year. He absolutely will have a million in the bank by 30 if not earlier, and I imagine that's similar at all of the FAANG-tier companies. I also have friends doing quantitative finance and algo-trading in places like Chicago and New York (Citadel, Optiver, etc). I won't even go into those numbers but feel free to look those starting comp packages up if you want to feel sad Absolutely correct that these are top percentile jobs in high cost of living areas with crazy work hours and performance expectations, but they do exist and aren't as uncommon as you would expect.

So FAANG - very challenging to get into. The average engineer does not get into Google right off the bat or undergrad. Out of all the thousands of engineers in the country maybe 10% work at Google. Also CA has one of the highest cost of living in the country - that $150k doesn't go too far. Being in the Chicagoland area myself, and being connected to some of the MBA/tech programs in the area, I can tell you that while SOME people do fare well, most don't make the type of extravagant salaries that you think they do, nor do they last that long. But grass always does seem greener. Getting into Google, Facebook, etc is like getting into Harvard for med school. Very few people make it into those places. Why wouldn't everyone just go to get an undergrad in some field and then go to one of these companies and make bank? Not that easy.

 

[efle]

intellectually stimulating position within the biotech realm with a decent lifestyle.

What makes you think working at a VC will be more stimulating than work as an attending radiologist, ophthalmologist, etc?

 

[Iamnew2]

What makes you think working at a VC will be more stimulating than work as an attending radiologist, ophthalmologist, etc?

It likely won’t but will make you more money and less risk for sure

 

[Iamnew2]

It's all personal opinion and relative, right? I do VC work on the side and find it extremely intellectually stimulating. Some VCs I've talked to think it's the most intellectually stimulating job on the planet. Others find ophthalmology super intellectually stimulating. To each their own. Not sure why that's hard to understand. When you're like me and have never liked biology and anatomy, but have always like econ, statistics, projections, and tech, you could see why you'd gravitate towards one side over the other.

When you say VC you do mean venture capitalism right?

 

[meddev]

When you say VC you do mean venture capitalism right?

Yes but specifically in healthcare / life-sci.

 

[efle]

It's all personal opinion and relative, right? I do VC work on the side and find it extremely intellectually stimulating. Some VCs I've talked to think it's the most intellectually stimulating job on the planet. Others find ophthalmology super intellectually stimulating. To each their own. Not sure why that's hard to understand. When you're like me and have never liked biology and anatomy, but have always like econ, statistics, projections, and tech, you could see why you'd gravitate towards one side over the other.

You should try talking to some attendings in fields like rads or surgeries. The preclinical ratrace of memorizing and regurgitating first aid isnt what a career practicing a specialty is like. I cant help but feel like you're comparing the most boring part of medical education to mid career jobs in the alternatives because that's all you've experienced so far.

 

[slowthai]

Because people in medicine grossly overestimate themselves. Thats why M1s all think they can do a surgical subspecialty, doctors all think they are financially literate.

I did 2 years in consulting though not at one of the big firms - and frankly most people in medicine don't have the soft skills to succeed in consulting. Myself included. It's not an easy field to succeed in.

Agree with this, especially the first sentence. Post something like this in /r/medicalschool and you'll be downvoted to hell

 

[Lawpy]

It's all personal opinion and relative, right? I do VC work on the side and find it extremely intellectually stimulating. Some VCs I've talked to think it's the most intellectually stimulating job on the planet. Others find ophthalmology super intellectually stimulating. To each their own. Not sure why that's hard to understand. When you're like me and have never liked biology and anatomy, but have always like econ, statistics, projections, and tech, you could see why you'd gravitate towards one side over the other.

I like econ, tech and stats too especially over biology and consulting still makes me want to suffer the agony of malignant clinical sites instead

 

[Lawpy]

Because people in medicine grossly overestimate themselves. Thats why M1s all think they can do a surgical subspecialty, doctors all think they are financially literate.

I did 2 years in consulting though not at one of the big firms - and frankly most people in medicine don't have the soft skills to succeed in consulting. Myself included. It's not an easy field to succeed in.

Yeah def agree with doctors thinking they're financially literate when they really aren't. It's why i ignore financial advice on sdn

 

[nimbus]

What is it with medical students and consulting? Everyone I know couldn't wait to leave firms like McKinsey, BCG, Bain after a few years including my own brother. They work you insanely hard, the travel schedule can be brutal, and lots of advising and not much doing.

And my personal experience with so called “consultants” in the healthcare arena is that they often lack experience and expertise, and they charge a lot of money to give bad advice. They use a lot of jargon but don’t know anything about the realities of taking care of patients or managing a healthcare workforce.

 

[nimbus]

Because people in medicine grossly overestimate themselves. Thats why M1s all think they can do a surgical subspecialty, doctors all think they are financially literate.

I did 2 years in consulting though not at one of the big firms - and frankly most people in medicine don't have the soft skills to succeed in consulting. Myself included. It's not an easy field to succeed in.

The same could be said of consultants. They grossly overestimate their own expertise. While they are often super polished and have excellent presentation skills, it’s mostly a sales pitch for their own services. Think about it. Why are young kids giving advice to experienced managers with decades of experience in their field? And despite their case study turnarounds, their advice just as often leads to accelerated destruction of some decently functioning organizations. The dirty little secret is that consulting is mostly sales.

I have a college buddy who went to work at McKinsey after medical school and 1 year of surgery internship. He left after becoming Associate Partner and he calls his years there dingus school.

 

[meddev]

The same could be said of consultants. They grossly overestimate their own expertise. While they are often super polished and have excellent presentation skills, it’s mostly a sales pitch for their own services. Think about it. Why are young kids giving advice to experienced managers with decades of experience in their field? And despite their case study turnarounds, their advice just as often leads to acceleration destruction of some decently functioning organizations. The dirty little secret is that consulting is mostly sales.

I have a college buddy who went to work at McKinsey after medical school and 1 year of surgery internship. He left after becoming Associate Partner and he calls his years there dingus school.

What does he do now? And correct, I view consulting as just more education, not an actual long-term career.

 

[Iamnew2]

What does he do now? And correct, I view consulting as just more education, not an actual long-term career.

I say go for it. Try it out and see. You never know. Life takes you in unpredicatable directions at times.

 

[Wordead]

The same could be said of consultants. They grossly overestimate their own expertise. While they are often super polished and have excellent presentation skills, it’s mostly a sales pitch for their own services. Think about it. Why are young kids giving advice to experienced managers with decades of experience in their field? And despite their case study turnarounds, their advice just as often leads to acceleration destruction of some decently functioning organizations. The dirty little secret is that consulting is mostly sales.

I have a college buddy who went to work at McKinsey after medical school and 1 year of surgery internship. He left after becoming Associate Partner and he calls his years there dingus school.

No disagreement here. A lot of firms with fresh grads with zero value added. However good consulting is worthwhile - the experienced manager with decades of experience often does need a fresh pair of eyes to find solutions.

 

[Iamnew2]

No disagreement here. A lot of firms with fresh grads with zero value added. However good consulting is worthwhile - the experienced manager with decades of experience often does need a fresh pair of eyes to find solutions.

A large number of consultants are useless. its particulalry frustrating as someone said that these people come in have no idea and give "solutions." ugh

 

[nimbus]

What does he do now? And correct, I view consulting as just more education, not an actual long-term career.

He’s a business professor and has a small PE firm specializing in Southeast Asia.

 

[emiko]

Guys, the 165k + bonus starting salary is real at top 3 firms with MD hire. Can confirmed because I went through this route and got paid that much. MD is extremely useful for top firms because there’s a lot of projects in healthcare and pharma.

 

[emiko]

Also adding here that if you get a job at top 3 firms, you will get paid about 200K total starting, with about 10-30% raise per year if you stay. Staying in consulting is lucrative, and making partners (takes about 6-7 years) will lead to 7 figure comps. However this is not an easy career path with long hours and competition with many intelligent individuals. Do not leave medicine to go work for a non top consulting firm that only pay you 100k. Not worth it.

People who wants 40h work week go into industry and take a slower yearly compensation increase, but still higher than consulting pay if they leave at around 2 year mark (meaning something like high 200 to 300). If you have the people skill, you can go pretty high in industry and get paid well. Or you can be comfortable and just work 9-5 to keep your ~300k

People who want to make more money than consulting go into PE or VC

 

[nimbus]

McKinsey Never Told the FDA It Was Working for Opioid Makers While Also Working for the Agency

The consulting giant was helping Purdue Pharma and Johnson & Johnson fend off FDA regulations even as it helped shape FDA drug policy.

www.propublica.org

McKinsey Rejected Its Leader; Now, Will It Really Change?

Two weeks before Kevin Sneader's bid for continued leadership was rejected, he said that he wanted to make McKinsey more transparent and structured. With Sneader no longer at the helm, it remains to be seen whether McKinsey’s new leadership will embrace these objectives.

www.forbes.com

 

[efle]

Also adding here that if you get a job at top 3 firms, you will get paid about 200K total starting, with about 10-30% raise per year if you stay. Staying in consulting is lucrative, and making partners (takes about 6-7 years) will lead to 7 figure comps. However this is not an easy career path with long hours and competition with many intelligent individuals. Do not leave medicine to go work for a non top consulting firm that only pay you 100k. Not worth it.

People who wants 40h work week go into industry and take a slower yearly compensation increase, but still higher than consulting pay if they leave at around 2 year mark (meaning something like high 200 to 300). If you have the people skill, you can go pretty high in industry and get paid well. Or you can be comfortable and just work 9-5 to keep your ~300k

People who want to make more money than consulting go into PE or VC

For lurking grass-is-greener folks, important caveat is that 90% of entering consultants at the big firms will NOT reach partner (usually leave after a couple years for something decent but not nearly 7 figure elsewhere). Its the exact inverse of lucrative medical fields where 90% entering training WILL be boarded and practicing what they entered for. Even at places like FAANG it's very hard to rival private practice ROAD/surgical subspecialty paychecks in your early 30s.