Contacting progs before interview offer?

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Perhaps you knew what you were going into as an M-1, I and most of my colleagues, did not. .

I just want to back up to this concept of advisors.

Your advisor for residency apps should not be some random "advisor" assigned for you as an M1.

It should be a faculty member in your chosen field that you have developed a mentoring relationship with.

If you have failed to develop such a relationship, it is not your school's fault. It is yours. You get plenty of chances as an M3 and M4 to work with attendings, and if you want to go into that field you should absolutely be reaching out to these people.

My M1 "advisor" was a pediatric cardiologist. Nice guy that I liked a lot...but he was not going to be a helpful advisor when it came to applying for a general surgery residency. Just like a general surgery attending would not be helpful to students applying for pediatrics.

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what about sending emails if you're going to be in the area? for example, if i'm going to new york twice already...is there a nice way of informing programs you'll be around and would really like to avoid 3 cross country trips if you can help it?
 
what about sending emails if you're going to be in the area? for example, if i'm going to new york twice already...is there a nice way of informing programs you'll be around and would really like to avoid 3 cross country trips if you can help it?

Dear Dr. ProgramDirector,

I'm only mildly interested in your program and was wondering if you could extend me an interview invitation for when I'll be in town interviewing with programs I actually want to go to. Otherwise, I can't be bothered to make another trip out to New York to your low-tier program. Don't miss out on meeting the awesome me!

Sincerely,

doopdidoop

P.S. Your program is my #1 pick. No kidding.
 
Foodle, aren't you applying this season too? What's with the hostility toward everyone? I admit, some questions are a little out there, but we're all going through the same thing here. Some posters obviously need more guidance. No need to make them feel bad.
 
Dear Dr. ProgramDirector,

I'm only mildly interested in your program and was wondering if you could extend me an interview invitation for when I'll be in town interviewing with programs I actually want to go to. Otherwise, I can't be bothered to make another trip out to New York to your low-tier program. Don't miss out on meeting the awesome me!

Sincerely,

doopdidoop

P.S. Your program is my #1 pick. No kidding.

yeah seriously dude. nowhere in my post was i implying anything you wrote in yours. some of us have limited funds and would like to save where possible.

does anyone have an actual response to my question?
 
Perhaps you knew what you were going into as an M-1, I and most of my colleagues, did not.

I'm a bit late responding to this, but whatever.

Sorry, we clearly have very different systems at my school. We have a dean who serves as our adviser during the first three years (and part of fourth year) for general medical things, and then we have to choose a *residency* adviser during fourth year, in our specialty of choice (usually), who helps us pick programs and generally gives us advice about the residency application process. We end up having many informal advisers as well, but one formal one who signs off on our electives during fourth year.

So when I talk about my adviser, I mean someone that I chose during fourth year, not someone assigned to me during first year. I still don't think it makes any sense to have an adviser outside of your specialty as a fourth year, because there are huge differences in applying to, say, orthopedics vs psychiatry.
 
Winged Scapula: Is it a bad idea to contact the advanced programs in the places where I got interviews for prelim or TY? I will fly to another city for a prelim interview very soon and I am just wondering if I should contact that advanced program to show my interest. Absolutely I am ready to move there if I could match there.

Many thanks.

Again, if you have already applied to "Advanced Program X" and are going to be in the area for "Prelim/TY Program Y" its perfectly acceptable to contact X, tell them about Y and see if they have any interview dates/slots available while you are there.

Contacting Advanced Program X just to "show interest" without having applied there is a bit odd.
 
I think it's reasonable to go ahead and send programs you're really interested in an email. Avoids an awkward conversation via calling. I was able to receive interview after sending an email-though not sure if this merely timing or if the email helped. Suppose it can't hurt if you don't come off extremely desperate and creepy.;)
 
I think it's reasonable to go ahead and send programs you're really interested in an email. Avoids an awkward conversation via calling. I was able to receive interview after sending an email-though not sure if this merely timing or if the email helped. Suppose it can't hurt if you don't come off extremely desperate and creepy.;)

What did you put as the 'Subject' of the email and when did you send it out? Recently?
 
I think it's reasonable to go ahead and send programs you're really interested in an email. Avoids an awkward conversation via calling. I was able to receive interview after sending an email-though not sure if this merely timing or if the email helped. Suppose it can't hurt if you don't come off extremely desperate and creepy.;)

Also, what exactly do you put in said email? Do you actually ask them to review your application, or just basically say a "I am really interested in this program and would love to go here" type of thing?
 
Definitely don't need to stress over it. Just state your interest and hope they will keep your app in continued consideration (don't say they are number one b/c that is very insincere this early w/o meeting the). That would be enough.
 
Also, what exactly do you put in said email? Do you actually ask them to review your application, or just basically say a "I am really interested in this program and would love to go here" type of thing?

To make it sincere and compelling, you have to be specific. Briefly explain to them why you are specifically interested in that program and location.
 
I sent e-mails out today, and I will keep you guys posted. I sent them to programs I have interacted with in some capacity in the past and my home program. They weren't "general" or "i am interested in your program" emails. I tried to be as personable as possible. Hopefully it works!
 
I sent 5 emails yesterday. Got 2 interviews and one response back. I would say from my experience (n=1), go for it!
 
If you could share a little bit that would be great. Congrats on the success!

So I mentioned that I was really interested in the program and mentioned something specific about it. Like if they have a global health program (which I'm interested in), I mentioned it by name. If it was near family, or other ties, I mentioned that. If I was going to be in the area later in the season, I also mentioned that but didn't list which other program I'll be at. Then I just asked if they were still issuing interview invitations and hoped they they would keep my application in continued consideration. Hope that helps. PM me if you have more specific questions. Good luck!
 
What did you put as the 'subject'? and published where? ERAS or the program website?

Subject: [name of program] interested applicant. Program website. Don't overthink this guys...obsessing over details like what the subject should be isn't a good use of your energy/time.
 
I've done it too, both times I've been in the Match. The yield has been, collectively, nearly 100%. I think that as long as you sound sincere and are very specific about why you're attracted to the program enough to contact the PD, it can't possibly hurt. At the minimum they review your app and give you a yes/no a bit earlier (if you need to know by a certain time).

What to do: be *succinct*, be specific, detail the reasons why you're very interested in their program, and run through the highlights on your CV. If you are under some kind of important time constraint, mention it.

What not to do: be long-winded, look like you've copied & pasted the same email to 30 people, mention any other program at all in any capacity, email the PC instead of the PD. The PC cannot make decisions nor review applicants nor be impressed with your credentials/reasons; s/he will simply write a boilerplate response.
 
I contacted multiple PCs this week (my adviser, who is also a former PD, told us NOT to contact PDs). Varied the e-mails to each program a little and basically told them I was interested and wanted to find out the status of my application. I've ended up with 1 interview, 2 rejections and a bunch of responses like "your application is on hold, which is not as bad as a rejection, and the PD is still considering you."

So I would say it's worth it. In the grand scheme of things, each interview counts and I'm thankful for the one I got so far after contacting places. Also got 2 rejections, but I prefer that to silence sometimes.
 
I contacted multiple PCs this week (my adviser, who is also a former PD, told us NOT to contact PDs). Varied the e-mails to each program a little and basically told them I was interested and wanted to find out the status of my application. I've ended up with 1 interview, 2 rejections and a bunch of responses like "your application is on hold, which is not as bad as a rejection, and the PD is still considering you."

So I would say it's worth it. In the grand scheme of things, each interview counts and I'm thankful for the one I got so far after contacting places. Also got 2 rejections, but I prefer that to silence sometimes.

Why did your advisor tell you not to contact PDs? I am getting varied responses on whether to email the PD or PC. Can someone make an argument for one over the other?
 
I'm not sure, but I did not ask him why. I assume it's because the PDs probably have a lot more things to do than sift through a bunch of e-mails from applicants who want invites. Just seems like more of a PC thing to me.
For the most part, I think the PCs are probably good about letting the PDs know if an applicant contacted the program to say they were interested, especially if it is someone they were strongly considering anyway (one PC told me that the program director LIKES to know about people who have expressed interest). But then again, that does just take us right to where we started and the PD ends up in some way having to deal with people who called/e-mailed to say they are interested in the program. IDK, this whole thing is very confusing.
 
Why did your advisor tell you not to contact PDs? I am getting varied responses on whether to email the PD or PC. Can someone make an argument for one over the other?

The argument for and against PD is that the PD makes the decisions. I think it really is program specific and comes down to the personality of the PD and his/her relationship with the PC.

From the outside, you really don't know if the PD is the type who gets annoyed by the overeager students (I'm sure they get more than one of these messages) or seeing them as a useful screening tool. Assuming the PC is a nice person, s/he will know what type of person the PD is and can "protect" the applicant by only forwarding the message for the latter type of PD while making sure this never reaches the former type of PD. Hence PC is the safer route.

I think at the end of the day this is a crapshoot and unlikely to make much of a difference. The one thing my advisors told me to do was ask my home PD/an attending to call someone in the other program. The logic is that there's no way your home PD will call unless you're seriously interested, thus weeding out the neurotic types who send out an email to interest to half the programs on their list.
 
Hmmm...still find this all very confusing. Did email the PD today. Now wondering if it was too forward. I figured at this point since I haven't heard anyways, not much to lose. Hope it won't be taken negatively!
 
I sent 5 emails yesterday. Got 2 interviews and one response back. I would say from my experience (n=1), go for it!

Thanks doopdidoop! Took your success as inspiration and also emailed a PC earlier this week of a program I was interested in but had not heard from yet. Got an in invite today! For others reading, I would say go for it! :D
 
The argument for and against PD is that the PD makes the decisions. I think it really is program specific and comes down to the personality of the PD and his/her relationship with the PC.

Also consider that at some places the PC actually makes most of the decisions on who to interview based on a given set of criteria, and the "on hold/maybes" make their way on to the PD for the final decision.
 
Also consider that at some places the PC actually makes most of the decisions on who to interview based on a given set of criteria, and the "on hold/maybes" make their way on to the PD for the final decision.

Some of these criteria are stupid, like AOA vs. not AOA or does dean's letter say "outstanding" or "excellent." And in the midst of that more important things (like grades were good enough for AOA, or the applicant has an outstanding EC) get lost.

That's why I think it's always worth emailing because getting a second look from the PD can make a big difference.
 
I sent an email to the PC of one of my top programs a couple of weeks ago. I never received any response back from the program, so I emailed the PD today. I figured at this point, it could not hurt me anymore as I have not received any word from the program, but I hopefully something good comes from this email today.
 
What not to do: be long-winded, look like you've copied & pasted the same email to 30 people, mention any other program at all in any capacity, email the PC instead of the PD. The PC cannot make decisions nor review applicants nor be impressed with your credentials/reasons; s/he will simply write a boilerplate response.

My n=1, but I e-mailed the PC requesting that a letter be forwarded to the intern selection committee. I got a favorable response out of it.

The argument for and against PD is that the PD makes the decisions. I think it really is program specific and comes down to the personality of the PD and his/her relationship with the PC.

Maybe. I mean, I'm sure the PD is involved in all the decisions, but if a program receives over a thousand applications, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that the PD reads every single one of them. More likely, there's a committee of people reviewing them, and people make suggestions to the PD as they go. And in some cases, the chair of the intern selection committee isn't the PD, so the PD(s) may be even less involved in those cases, and focused more on the current residents.
 
Some of these criteria are stupid, like AOA vs. not AOA or does dean's letter say "outstanding" or "excellent." And in the midst of that more important things (like grades were good enough for AOA, or the applicant has an outstanding EC) get lost.

It's the criteria that are stupid, not the people (e.g. program coordinators) interpreting them.

It's not PC's faults that Dean's letters include a magical secret code to help us decipher what degree of a wonderful special flower a med student is.

If the dean's letters just said "this is an average graduate" or "this is one of our top 10 students this year", then the criteria would be more plain.

But we live in a world where students' egos are too fragile for that.

So instead there is a meaningful distinction between the words "excellent" and "outstanding". The PC is often the person with the best grasp of the code, as he/she reads so many apps year to year.
 
It's the criteria that are stupid, not the people (e.g. program coordinators) interpreting them.

It's not PC's faults that Dean's letters include a magical secret code to help us decipher what degree of a wonderful special flower a med student is.

If the dean's letters just said "this is an average graduate" or "this is one of our top 10 students this year", then the criteria would be more plain.

But we live in a world where students' egos are too fragile for that.

So instead there is a meaningful distinction between the words "excellent" and "outstanding". The PC is often the person with the best grasp of the code, as he/she reads so many apps year to year.

Yeah, but aren't those "magical codes" the result of class rank / GPA anyway? From what I've been told, dean's letters use those words depending on where you were in your class rank. So if someone was in the top 5%, it would say "excellent" and if they were in the bottom 5%, it would say "satisfactory." So really, what is the point? The programs already have your grades on the transcript and for some (most?) they have class rank already too. And even if they didn't, the dean's letter would tell them your class rank. So what's the point of needing a secret code?
 
I also wonder how often deans/letter writers actually adhere to this code... how hilarious would it be if someone had access to this data and realized PDs were screening people by a code only 30% of letter writers actually use? Given how different basic, openingly talked about the shared, medical terminology differs between institutions, who would be surprised by this finding?
 
Yeah, but aren't those "magical codes" the result of class rank / GPA anyway? From what I've been told, dean's letters use those words depending on where you were in your class rank. So if someone was in the top 5%, it would say "excellent" and if they were in the bottom 5%, it would say "satisfactory." So really, what is the point? The programs already have your grades on the transcript and for some (most?) they have class rank already too. And even if they didn't, the dean's letter would tell them your class rank. So what's the point of needing a secret code?

Don't forget that not all medical schools have class ranking, so it may be a way for programs to decipher between students at schools with class rank and those without.
 
It's the criteria that are stupid, not the people (e.g. program coordinators) interpreting them.

It's not PC's faults that Dean's letters include a magical secret code to help us decipher what degree of a wonderful special flower a med student is.

If the dean's letters just said "this is an average graduate" or "this is one of our top 10 students this year", then the criteria would be more plain.

But we live in a world where students' egos are too fragile for that.

So instead there is a meaningful distinction between the words "excellent" and "outstanding". The PC is often the person with the best grasp of the code, as he/she reads so many apps year to year.

Yeah, but aren't those "magical codes" the result of class rank / GPA anyway? From what I've been told, dean's letters use those words depending on where you were in your class rank. So if someone was in the top 5%, it would say "excellent" and if they were in the bottom 5%, it would say "satisfactory." So really, what is the point? The programs already have your grades on the transcript and for some (most?) they have class rank already too. And even if they didn't, the dean's letter would tell them your class rank. So what's the point of needing a secret code?

There is a lot of redundancy built into the process, and the people overviewing these applications, rather than independently coding the pieces of information to a non-degenerate set of credentials (preclinical grades, clinical grades, board scores, research, funding/publications, medical school reputation, humanitarian ECs, hobbies), are using them summatively.

AOA (is supposed to [but often does not]) reflect purely the transcript. Therefore, if someone has an "AOA-worthy" transcript but no AOA, they should be treated just the same as AOA. AOA in and of itself is just signaling, nothing more than that. It should make it easier for them to scan the transcript, but not be used as an added credential when it is nothing of the sort.

If anything, I've observed at my school how AOA is a political POS and how people get in because they were on student government or because their spouse/fiance(e)/boyfriend/girlfriend was on junior AOA. And I've also seen how perfectly qualified students who came off of LOA (e.g. year off for research, graduate school, etc.) are discarded like radioactive waste even if their transcript is eminently "AOA-worthy."

Likewise, if you get a reward for your humanitarian work, it should just be used to help the reviewer see that you were involved in humanitarian work and then they can evaluate for themselves the value of it. Adding the reward to the EC itself is basically double-counting.

And as for the secret code, please don't get me started. That depends on the competence of the dean writing the letter. I've seen some idiotic letters and they're mostly because the dean has not carefully reviewed the CV and transcript and is instead using AOA and other signaling mechanisms to benchmark the "outstanding" applicants rather than conducting an ab initio analysis.
 
Don't forget that not all medical schools have class ranking, so it may be a way for programs to decipher between students at schools with class rank and those without.

The Dean's Letter includes a histogram of how you did in graded classes. At least ours did. So they can get a general idea of how you did compared to the rest of your classmates by looking at the histogram.
 
Yeah, but aren't those "magical codes" the result of class rank / GPA anyway? From what I've been told, dean's letters use those words depending on where you were in your class rank. So if someone was in the top 5%, it would say "excellent" and if they were in the bottom 5%, it would say "satisfactory." So really, what is the point? The programs already have your grades on the transcript and for some (most?) they have class rank already too. And even if they didn't, the dean's letter would tell them your class rank. So what's the point of needing a secret code?

The code isn't "secret". At the end of the MSPE, there's a clear description of what the code means. I do agree that the wording is somewhat ridiculous, as it tries to make everyone sound amazing. One school uses "Most Outstanding", "Outstanding", "Outstanding to Most Excellent", "Most Excellent", "Excellent", etc.

Many schools weight the clinical years more than the basic science years, so it's not just a simple GPA calculation. Plus, they will use professionalism scores, research success, etc. Most schools also include histograms / graphs of each course / clerkship performance, so we can see for ourselves how you did.

AOA is a more complicated issue. I'm going to assume that AOA means your performance was better than non-AOA. I have no idea how AOA is chosen (and I expect it's different at each school) but I'm going to trust that schools choose appropriately.
 
The code isn't "secret". At the end of the MSPE, there's a clear description of what the code means. I do agree that the wording is somewhat ridiculous, as it tries to make everyone sound amazing. One school uses "Most Outstanding", "Outstanding", "Outstanding to Most Excellent", "Most Excellent", "Excellent", etc.

Many schools weight the clinical years more than the basic science years, so it's not just a simple GPA calculation. Plus, they will use professionalism scores, research success, etc. Most schools also include histograms / graphs of each course / clerkship performance, so we can see for ourselves how you did.

AOA is a more complicated issue. I'm going to assume that AOA means your performance was better than non-AOA. I have no idea how AOA is chosen (and I expect it's different at each school) but I'm going to trust that schools choose appropriately.

The question is, does the dean's letter use things like AOA status in coding you or do they just use the performance per transcript? I know for a fact that at my school they ask for the top 25% of the students, but then select <16% from that pool, largely on a political basis (e.g. several couples in which one partner was junior AOA and voted in the other to senior AOA), so you could theoretically have a large number of outstanding students who got passed for AOA. I have seen how this rubbed off in dean's letter. The end result was that some outstanding (transcript-wise) students got coded as "excellent" because they didn't get AOA. That isn't right.
 
The question is, does the dean's letter use things like AOA status in coding you or do they just use the performance per transcript? I know for a fact that at my school they ask for the top 25% of the students, but then select <16% from that pool, largely on a political basis (e.g. several couples in which one partner was junior AOA and voted in the other to senior AOA), so you could theoretically have a large number of outstanding students who got passed for AOA. I have seen how this rubbed off in dean's letter. The end result was that some outstanding (transcript-wise) students got coded as "excellent" because they didn't get AOA. That isn't right.

My school does this too. Top 25 percentile, then it's literally a bunch of students (and a few faculty who really only works with people in student government) in a room doing anonymous voting and the end result is large a testament of who hung out with who during the year and you can predict who won't get it because they're going for the same competitive fields as the junior AOA people. Some years (but not others - I won't speculate on the motivations for this) they'll even choose not to consider STEP1 scores in the equation when selecting senior AOA applicants.

I'm sure there are plenty of places that have better means for choosing members and some of the people who get it are truly the creme of the crop in my class, but the process is so non-transparent and tainted that the only thing "AOA" from my home institution tells me is you know who to socialize with.
 
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I'm really surprised to hear that program coordinators play a vital role in the resident selection process at some places. I mean, usually the PD has a committee composed of other faculty (or in larger programs, associate PDs) who play that role. The PC at my former program was an incredibly busy and competent person who not only coordinated the residency applications (in the sense of scheduling interviews, arranging actual day-of itineraries for applicants, keeping track of documentation) but of course running the lives of all of us already in the program. However she was not an MD, not a surgeon, and as such didn't really seem well-placed to determine who might make a good resident for the program.

@Jumpman no: they can look you up by name/school just fine (unless you have a really, really common name)
 
I'm really surprised to hear that program coordinators play a vital role in the resident selection process at some places. I mean, usually the PD has a committee composed of other faculty (or in larger programs, associate PDs) who play that role. The PC at my former program was an incredibly busy and competent person who not only coordinated the residency applications (in the sense of scheduling interviews, arranging actual day-of itineraries for applicants, keeping track of documentation) but of course running the lives of all of us already in the program. However she was not an MD, not a surgeon, and as such didn't really seem well-placed to determine who might make a good resident for the program.

@Jumpman no: they can look you up by name/school just fine (unless you have a really, really common name)
The good ones don't really have a say in who gets ranked, but they do often do the first pass screen of applications and (using criteria outlined by the PD) will send the first round of apps to the PC for review.
 
The good ones don't really have a say in who gets ranked, but they do often do the first pass screen of applications and (using criteria outlined by the PD) will send the first round of apps to the PC for review.
The good ones absolutely do get a say in whom is ranked!
 
The good ones don't really have a say in who gets ranked, but they do often do the first pass screen of applications and (using criteria outlined by the PD) will send the first round of apps to the PC for review.

Agree that they definitely have a say in who/how gets ranked. Also at a lot of places they don't just send the first round of apps to the PD for review...they just send the first round of invites!
 
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