Contacting prospective PIs

[EmotRegulation]

Hi everyone, just thought I'd put out a little Public Service Announcement for those of you applying this year. I know it's common practice for prospective clinical students to email their prospective PI but I thought I'd provide some guidance on this practice.

1. Check the program website and the particular PI website (if they have one) to see if your PI is taking a student for next year. If they have said clearly either way with updated information (i.e., with the year posted clearly), DO NOT EMAIL THEM TO ASK. Seriously. Don't do it. Because as a faculty member, these emails are super duper annoying. I took the time to update my website and put the info clearly on my site, so if you email me to ask me a question that I've already answered, I do *not* think highly of you. In fact, I feel extremely irritated to the point that I come over to this forum to post about why this practice is seriously annoying.
2. If it's not clear if your particular PI is taking a student (like if is not clear if the information posted is up to date or if nothing is out there at all), then feel free to email to ask. Use their professional name (i.e., Send the email to "Dr. EmotRegulation," don't just say "Dear Professor," because some students literally send the same email to every faculty member in the program and trust me--we know when you do this.), indicate your interest in their work in a way that demonstrates you've been to the website and have a sense of what they study, or you've read a paper they wrote, and ask a brief question that can be answered quickly. You don't need to send your CV--that's just something else for the PI to open and look at.
3. Lets say you want to get your name on the PI's radar, but they say they are taking a student already, so you can't ask them that per #1. What should you do? The best solution here is to send a brief email introducing yourself to the PI, stating that you are interested in their work (here again--make it clear you've done your homework) and that you see on their website that they plan to take a student. Then tell them you are intending to apply. That's it! Hit send. Do not expect a response from this kind of email. This is, in my opinion, the BEST kind of email because it shows interest (we love it when people have actually read our stuff!) and requires nothing from us in response. I take to these kind of emails very kindly.
4. Lets say you want to get your name on the PI's radar, but you can't handle the thought of sending an email and getting no response. What should you do? Find a question to ask that is not answered on the program or PI website (like a question about a paper). This question should be easy to answer in a few sentences or less. A question like "what kind of research projects do you anticipate doing in the next five years?" is not an easy question. Something like, "You said in the discussion of your ZYX paper that a next step might be ZYA. I would be interested in doing that kind of project for a masters thesis, is anyone from your lab doing that study yet?" would be reasonable because it's a short response. Basically any kind of question that is not answered elsewhere online and that doesn't take much time to respond to is a good question.

In any of these emails, it is not necessary to send a CV (though I will sometimes open them just to see). And definitely do NOT ask to set up a time to talk on the phone--that conveys a lack of knowledge about clinical faculty time commitments and availability.

Hope this is helpful for current applicants! And for the record, I don't meant to sound snarky in any of this--my intention is to help applicants engage in practices that will be beneficial to them while applying AND benefit the mentors to whom they would like to spend 4+ years working with.

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[ExploringOptions]

I appreciate this post a lot. Thank you! In the process of contacting PIs. I am not going the clinical route, but I assume it’s similar for other PIs too. I make notes of what I sent and when just to make sure I don’t contact someone twice by accident and annoy them. It’s tricky because you want to get your name out there, but you don’t want to be seen as a pest. I try to make my emails very short and sweet. So far they’ve been well received, And I’ve gotten nice responses and some have asked me to send along a CV. Thanks again for this post!

 

[beantownpsych]

1. Check the program website and the particular PI website (if they have one) to see if your PI is taking a student for next year. If they have said clearly either way with updated information (i.e., with the year posted clearly), DO NOT EMAIL THEM TO ASK. Seriously. Don't do it. Because as a faculty member, these emails are super duper annoying. I took the time to update my website and put the info clearly on my site, so if you email me to ask me a question that I've already answered, I do *not* think highly of you. In fact, I feel extremely irritated to the point that I come over to this forum to post about why this practice is seriously annoying.

Seconded

 

[beantownpsych]

And please whatever you do don't...
1. call me to discuss your application
2. interrupt while I'm dining with colleagues at a conference (pick your time wisely... at a symposium, poster session, recruitment event etc I'm happy to meet you. Better yet, if you have a research mentor have them introduce you)
3. email my admin when I don't respond to #1

 

[EmotRegulation]

And please whatever you do don't...
1. call me to discuss your application
2. interrupt while I'm dining with colleagues at a conference (pick your time wisely... at a symposium, poster session, recruitment event etc I'm happy to meet you. Better yet, if you have a research mentor have them introduce you)
3. email my admin when I don't respond to #1

Oh geez yes. All of this too. For the record, I *do* understand how stressful the application process is, and how it often feels like shooting daggers in the dark....I had very little guidance when I applied because I was switching fields into Psychology, and I didn't have mentors to guide me. That's hard. And I get that you want feedback.....but asking for extra/special favors (which includes interrupting someone at dinner) is not the way to endear yourself.

 

[MCParent]

I agree with almost everything, but I have to say I don’t like being asked questions. I know some of the grad school books suggest doing it, but I don’t like it. The questions never sound sincere to me and seem to always just be a way to try to get another bit of an in, but I wouldn’t conceive of a pre-app email ever boosting my opinion of someone or even making me remember them at app time (except maybe badly if it was something mentioned above).

 

[cbtdoc]

4. Lets say you want to get your name on the PI's radar, but you can't handle the thought of sending an email and getting no response. What should you do? Find a question to ask that is not answered on the program or PI website (like a question about a paper). This question should be easy to answer in a few sentences or less. A question like "what kind of research projects do you anticipate doing in the next five years?" is not an easy question. Something like, "You said in the discussion of your ZYX paper that a next step might be ZYA. I would be interested in doing that kind of project for a masters thesis, is anyone from your lab doing that study yet?" would be reasonable because it's a short response. Basically any kind of question that is not answered elsewhere online and that doesn't take much time to respond to is a good question.

I'm not a big fan of questions like what kinds of research projects I anticipate over the next five years. I can see the second question being okay, since it shows some reasonable thought and effort on the student's part, and is easy to answer with a single sentence or even just a yes/no. But the first one requires more work on the professor's part to answer than it did on the student's part to ask. And more importantly, at this point we don't even know if this student is going to apply, is going to be at all competitive, anything like that. If the answer to this question will determine whether someone is going to apply, then great, it makes sense to ask it, and to say something while asking about why that is, what you're looking for and how this will help you know whether to apply. But otherwise, all you're doing is asking someone to spend time answering a question for the sake of getting an email response, and that's annoying and time-consuming. I'd much rather wait until someone has applied and has made the cut for further consideration and has either heard my presentation during a visit or can ask for detailed information otherwise at that point in the process.

 

[EmotRegulation]

I'm not a big fan of questions like what kinds of research projects I anticipate over the next five years. I can see the second question being okay, since it shows some reasonable thought and effort on the student's part, and is easy to answer with a single sentence or even just a yes/no. But the first one requires more work on the professor's part to answer than it did on the student's part to ask. And more importantly, at this point we don't even know if this student is going to apply, is going to be at all competitive, anything like that. If the answer to this question will determine whether someone is going to apply, then great, it makes sense to ask it, and to say something while asking about why that is, what you're looking for and how this will help you know whether to apply. But otherwise, all you're doing is asking someone to spend time answering a question for the sake of getting an email response, and that's annoying and time-consuming. I'd much rather wait until someone has applied and has made the cut for further consideration and has either heard my presentation during a visit or can ask for detailed information otherwise at that point in the process.

Yes that was basically my point....don't ask big questions with long answers!! I won't answer those type of questions and I resent being asked them.

 

[ExploringOptions]

Is this mainly clinical? I’m asking because a friend of mine is applying to quant programs and has been emailing with quite a few PIs. Some have asked to Skype or talk to him on the phone. But I am wondering if it’s because they have a harder time attracting people or something. He’s a good student and all but he’s not some amazing wonder kid. No posts or pubs and he’s getting a lot of love.
If anyone on here isn’t clinical, say social or cognitive, how do you feel about these emails? Any tips?

 

[Ollie123]

Can't speak to their specific circumstance obviously, but I have some friends/colleagues in quant. Individual faculty members in the clinical program would get as many applications as the entire quant program combined. The burden to respond is thus quite a bit less. That said - its still quite competitive since a PhD in quantitative psychology isn't really something you pursue on a whim (and sadly...clinical often is).

 

[psych.meout]

Can't speak to their specific circumstance obviously, but I have some friends/colleagues in quant. Individual faculty members in the clinical program would get as many applications as the entire quant program combined. The burden to respond is thus quite a bit less. That said - its still quite competitive since a PhD in quantitative psychology isn't really something you pursue on a whim (and sadly...clinical often is).

The self-selection part is very important. When it comes to clinical, there are many people who don't know what a doctorate really involves, what it takes to be competitive and get admitted, or even if they really want or need a doctorate. Or, they just don't have the aptitude and might never be competitive or perform well as a psychologist. These people pad the numbers for clinical program applications (and probably med school apps, as well), while I would assume that applicants for other grad programs are much more aware of these things and other people often self-select out, so you're getting much more serious and competitive applicants.

 

[ExploringOptions]

The self-selection part is very important. When it comes to clinical, there are many people who don't know what a doctorate really involves, what it takes to be competitive and get admitted, or even if they really want or need a doctorate. Or, they just don't have the aptitude and might never be competitive or perform well as a psychologist. These people pad the numbers for clinical program applications (and probably med school apps, as well), while I would assume that applicants for other grad programs are much more aware of these things and other people often self-select out, so you're getting much more serious and competitive applicants.

Thanks for your opinion, but I’d like to keep this on topic, not an exploration of why people pursue various programs and what their deficiencies may be.
Just wondering if there is a difference of opinion correlated with specific program types.

 

[WisNeuro]

The posts were on topic. There is generally a smaller applicant pool. I have friends who are profs in the I/O and Social/Personality fields and they (on average) get far fewer applicants than clinical. These programs also tend to be much more research heavy, so PIs want to vet their applicants much more heavily, usually personally, as they will be spending more hands on time with this person developing their research interests and pipeline.

 

[jdawg2017]

I'd also add to this thread that contacting a PI's students to ask "will your PI take students?" or "tell me about your PI" is also annoying, and if you don't strike the balance well word can get back to the PI before they even look at your application. First impressions are everything in life.

A different route which could be appropriate (at least for students) would be networking with us at a conference you attend (I have always found it okay when people come up to me and talk to me about my work and then ask about our lab), or shooting us a *genuine* email to ask about a paper we wrote and then having more of a dialogue from there. Maybe it's more of a flattery thing, but at least in my case (and maybe other trainees can chime in) I always feel grimy when people are trying to use me as a back channel to my PI. It's a big red flag.

 

[msgeorgeeliot]

The posts were on topic. There is generally a smaller applicant pool. I have friends who are profs in the I/O and Social/Personality fields and they (on average) get far fewer applicants than clinical. These programs also tend to be much more research heavy, so PIs want to vet their applicants much more heavily, usually personally, as they will be spending more hands on time with this person developing their research interests and pipeline.

Maybe there’s a distinction to be made between a post being on topic vs being helpful to an individual with a question. Helpfulness is, of course, a totally subjective thing, and people have different interests within a given subject matter that they are within their rights to explore as well.

@ExploringOptions, I just wanted to say here that I admire your confidence in offering feedback about what type of response would be more helpful to you. I thought that @Action.Potential did this effectively in the other thread as well. I think this is a healthy way to communicate to get one’s needs met. Happy Thursday to all.

Edit: whoops, wrong @Action_Potential. Happy Thursday to all action potentials everywhere, regardless of solipsistic flair 🤔

My goal in posting was more to open discussion to what circumstances led to this psychologist persisting despite considerable harm to themselves, their loved ones and potentially to the detriment of those they serve. I agree that shame, and backlash, contribute to the problem. Of course people with personal perspectives on mental health are drawn to the field, but ethically I am alarmed by a trainee providing years of treatment (and receiving clinical supervision) while deeply depressed and dissociating without addressing this need. (And at a psychoanalytic institute of study?!)

Perhaps I am in the minority in the belief that gatekeeping, remediation in ways other than academic, and supervisor intervention are not negative/detrimental events when trainees are unable to (due to impairment or ignorance) be reflective of the impact of their own welfare on patients and the institution within which they practice. This trainee sounded like they desperately needed intervention, and that their degree cost them everything of value (despite the spiritual awakening). It grieves me.

Is it time to bring up the controversial “therapy requirement” of some programs?

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[WisNeuro]

There are probably many distinctions to be made. We could easily slip into solipsism if we wish.

 

[EmotRegulation]

Just to reiterate my point, I don't mind getting an email!!! As someone said above, an email asking me a question about one of my papers tells me someone actually READ my paper, which is all kinds of exciting, and I'll respond to those, especially if the question is targeted. I don't mind email introductions. The problem here is emails which ask questions that (a) are already answered, or (b) which are incredibly time consuming to answer. I've asked several of my non-clinical colleagues and they don't seem to have different feelings than I do. Now if the PI *WANTS to set up Skype calls or email extensively, great--but let the faculty member take the lead on that one.

Also as to jdawg2017's excellent point--trying to backdoor via grad students doesn't work. Unless the grad students don't have a good relationship with the PI, they're going to talk to the PI about applicants. I've interviewed students who I liked but I nixed because they were snooty to my grad students or tried to criticize other applicants....if my grad students don't like an applicant, that applicant likely won't get an offer.