Convincing an MD of what DO is all about

[cardmagi]

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Hi everyone,

My dad is an MD and me and him have both agreed on me pursuing a career in medicine. Although my GPA is great, my MCAT scores have not been up to par for medical schools here in the United States. After this dilemma, a couple of my friends have suggested doing DO. I believe my MCAT scores would suffice for going to DO school.

It does not matter to me. I am in the business of helping people regardless if MD or DO comes after my name. However, my father is urging me NOT to goto DO school. He says they are not as well respected, do not make as much money, etc.

What are some convincing arguments I could give him?

Thanks.

 

[farnsworth]

Hi everyone,

My dad is an MD and me and him have both agreed on me pursuing a career in medicine. Although my GPA is great, my MCAT scores have not been up to par for medical schools here in the United States. After this dilemma, a couple of my friends have suggested doing DO. I believe my MCAT scores would suffice for going to DO school.

It does not matter to me. I am in the business of helping people regardless if MD or DO comes after my name. However, my father is urging me NOT to goto DO school. He says they are not as well respected, do not make as much money, etc.

What are some convincing arguments I could give him?

Thanks.

Let me guess...you're Indian?

 

[cardmagi]

Let me guess...you're Indian?

Actually, arabic. But I'm guessing in this matter, it does not make a difference.

 

[farnsworth]

Actually, arabic. But I'm guessing in this matter, it does not make a difference.

It seems like it's an attitude that's concentrated a little more highly in some cultures, but certainly not absent in people from all backgrounds. I'm realizing though that I don't have much advice to offer, other than doing a search for previous threads that addressed this possible cultural bias, there's been a decent amount of discussion on it. While it's true that many (well, some) American physicians feel the MD is superior, I think it's probably even more the case in physicians who immigrated here without having practiced with colleague DO's previously. And it's hard to fault the guy for being skeptical, when you've stated it was indeed a backup for you, the implication being less desirable/ambitious/prestigious/whatever. Even the strong arguments that dispute his erroneous beliefs (that DO's don't make as much, etc.) won't fully convince him if you don't believe it yourself, nor will they likely penetrate an ingrained prejudice. But if he loves you and you do a good job of researching your options and make an informed, ambitious decision, I'm guessing you'll get the best support out of him. I'm sure you'll have some DO students come jump in with advice here as well, as I am not, and am thus talking out of my ass.

 

[ShyRem]

This has been discussed to death (certainly you're not the first with a prejudiced physician parent).

Bottom line: he's pretty steeped in his ignorance and you probably won't change that. So are you going to go to school for yourself or your father and whose opinion is worth more to you? Your own opinion or your father's (whose opinion is pretty darn uninformed)?

 

[DrMidlife]

Actually, arabic. But I'm guessing in this matter, it does not make a difference.

Well, if your parents immigrated and/or are hellbent to make sure that you get a "better" life here, that's a LOT of pressure. Dad just wants to know your future is secure.

What you want to find, and show to your dad, are DOs like Richard Jadick (cover of Newsweek, March 2006), and Brigadier General Stanley Flemming, who was in the running for surgeon general, and is now president of a new DO school in WA state. Look at hospitals your dad has heard of, and find the DOs on their staff. You'll find people like Jennifer Hagerty, who is a pediatric urologist at Chicago Childrens, or Paul Armstrong, chair of vascular surgery at the Tampa VA. Ideally, find a DO that works where your dad does and enlist his/her help.

Make sure your dad knows that as a DO, you have the choice to do an ACGME (~MD) residency or an AOA (~DO) residency. There are very, very few ACGME residencies that haven't had a DO yet; 60% of DOs go this direction. Only DOs can do AOA residencies, which means your chances of doing neurosurg or other insanely competitive specialties are actually GREATER as a DO.

Make sure your dad knows that now 20% of the students in US medical schools are DOs, and while there are regional "heavy DO" areas like Michigan, most areas are up to 5% DOs and growing.

I can't give you any data to back this up, but as far as salaries go, a rural DO pediatrician is going to make the same crappy money as a rural MD pediatrician, and a DO surgeon is going to make the same good money as an MD surgeon. I don't think your dad wants to nickel and dime you with worrying about you making $300k instead of $400k. Really, that's about business skills, not medical training.

As for respect, that's something only you (and to a lesser degree, your dad) can decide. Nobody's getting a whole bunch of respect in healthcare lately - not docs, nurses, or midlevels.

I suggest you get and read the Gevitz book about the history of DOs, which is a wee bit scholarly. And then give it to your dad, maybe with key parts highlighted.

Best of luck to you.

 

[farnsworth]

Well, if your parents immigrated and/or are hellbent to make sure that you get a "better" life here, that's a LOT of pressure. Dad just wants to know your future is secure.

What you want to find, and show to your dad, are DOs like Richard Jadick (cover of Newsweek, March 2006), and Brigadier General Stanley Flemming, who was in the running for surgeon general, and is now president of a new DO school in WA state. Look at hospitals your dad has heard of, and find the DOs on their staff. You'll find people like Jennifer Hagerty, who is a pediatric urologist at Chicago Childrens, or Paul Armstrong, chair of vascular surgery at the Tampa VA. Ideally, find a DO that works where your dad does and enlist his/her help.

Make sure your dad knows that as a DO, you have the choice to do an ACGME (~MD) residency or an AOA (~DO) residency. There are very, very few ACGME residencies that haven't had a DO yet; 60% of DOs go this direction. Only DOs can do AOA residencies, which means your chances of doing neurosurg or other insanely competitive specialties are actually GREATER as a DO.

Make sure your dad knows that now 20% of the students in US medical schools are DOs, and while there are regional "heavy DO" areas like Michigan, most areas are up to 5% DOs and growing.

I can't give you any data to back this up, but as far as salaries go, a rural DO pediatrician is going to make the same crappy money as a rural MD pediatrician, and a DO surgeon is going to make the same good money as an MD surgeon. I don't think your dad wants to nickel and dime you with worrying about you making $300k instead of $400k. Really, that's about business skills, not medical training.

As for respect, that's something only you (and to a lesser degree, your dad) can decide. Nobody's getting a whole bunch of respect in healthcare lately - not docs, nurses, or midlevels.

I suggest you get and read the Gevitz book about the history of DOs, which is a wee bit scholarly. And then give it to your dad, maybe with key parts highlighted.

Best of luck to you.

I don't think this is true (yes it's true that you have DO NSG residencies open to you while we don't, but I don't think that puts you in a better net position to get a NSG residency...or most ultra competitive residencies).

 

[cardmagi]

So are you going to go to school for yourself or your father and whose opinion is worth more to you? Your own opinion or your father's (whose opinion is pretty darn uninformed)?

Thank you for your answer, but you kind of missed the point of my question. I realize that I have to go my own route. However, i'd rather go through my own route through compromise and discussion, not outright rebellion.

I figure I should do all I can to battle the ignorance in this matter. If that is not enough, at least emotionally I will realize that I did all I could.

But I agree with you. At least in this case, not only will I have arguments to discuss with my dad, I will feel better knowing that I didnt make a mistake by choosing DO over MD.

 

[DrMidlife]

I don't think this is true (yes it's true that you have DO NSG residencies open to you while we don't, but I don't think that puts you in a better net position to get a NSG residency...or most ultra competitive residencies).

I don't know who the "we" is that you're referring to - this is a DO forum...

I'm not trying to argue that a top student who wants to do neuro should go DO to improve his/her odds. But if you're in no shape to get into an MD school, and you really really really (really) want to do neurosurg, you actually have a chance as a DO - and nobody's going to stop you from trying for an ACGME spot as well. It's very enlightening to look at how many interviews are done per neurosurg/ortho/rads/derm/uro/optho/oto residency seat, on the Freida site and on the AOA site. And the ACGME and AOA news release data tables.

 

[cardmagi]

Well, if your parents immigrated and/or are hellbent to make sure that you get a "better" life here, that's a LOT of pressure. Dad just wants to know your future is secure.

What you want to find, and show to your dad, are DOs like Richard Jadick (cover of Newsweek, March 2006), and Brigadier General Stanley Flemming, who was in the running for surgeon general, and is now president of a new DO school in WA state. Look at hospitals your dad has heard of, and find the DOs on their staff. You'll find people like Jennifer Hagerty, who is a pediatric urologist at Chicago Childrens, or Paul Armstrong, chair of vascular surgery at the Tampa VA. Ideally, find a DO that works where your dad does and enlist his/her help.

Make sure your dad knows that as a DO, you have the choice to do an ACGME (~MD) residency or an AOA (~DO) residency. There are very, very few ACGME residencies that haven't had a DO yet; 60% of DOs go this direction. Only DOs can do AOA residencies, which means your chances of doing neurosurg or other insanely competitive specialties are actually GREATER as a DO.

Make sure your dad knows that now 20% of the students in US medical schools are DOs, and while there are regional "heavy DO" areas like Michigan, most areas are up to 5% DOs and growing.

I can't give you any data to back this up, but as far as salaries go, a rural DO pediatrician is going to make the same crappy money as a rural MD pediatrician, and a DO surgeon is going to make the same good money as an MD surgeon. I don't think your dad wants to nickel and dime you with worrying about you making $300k instead of $400k. Really, that's about business skills, not medical training.

As for respect, that's something only you (and to a lesser degree, your dad) can decide. Nobody's getting a whole bunch of respect in healthcare lately - not docs, nurses, or midlevels.

I suggest you get and read the Gevitz book about the history of DOs, which is a wee bit scholarly. And then give it to your dad, maybe with key parts highlighted.

Best of luck to you.

Wow, thanks for this great response. I am definitly going to research your findings further and read up on them. Seems really intriguing.

 

[CorpuSpongiosum]

Please discuss with him the work of this gentelman:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Garner_Sutherland

And make sure to click on the further link about cranial medicine .....(sorry I had to sit up. I was laughing so hard after I typed the word medicine right next to the work cranial)

This ought to set him straight about there being any difference between us and 'them'.....

 

[farnsworth]

I don't know who the "we" is that you're referring to - this is a DO forum...

I'm not trying to argue that a top student who wants to do neuro should go DO to improve his/her odds. But if you're in no shape to get into an MD school, and you really really really (really) want to do neurosurg, you actually have a chance as a DO - and nobody's going to stop you from trying for an ACGME spot as well. It's very enlightening to look at how many interviews are done per neurosurg/ortho/rads/derm/uro/optho/oto residency seat, on the Freida site and on the AOA site. And the ACGME and AOA news release data tables.

Of course you have a chance as a DO, but you made it sound like you have a better chance to get into a competitive residency as a DO just by virtue of the fact that you also have DO residencies open to you, which MD students (like me) do not. In my assessment, this is not true. Obviously it depends on a variety of interpersonal factors blah blah blah but I think it's overextending on a claim to say it's easier to get into competitive specialties. I agree with your opinion that if you're not competitive for MD and you want the most residency options, you should go DO.

The "we" to which I refer is MD students.

 

[ShyRem]

Thank you for your answer, but you kind of missed the point of my question. I realize that I have to go my own route. However, i'd rather go through my own route through compromise and discussion, not outright rebellion.

I figure I should do all I can to battle the ignorance in this matter. If that is not enough, at least emotionally I will realize that I did all I could.

But I agree with you. At least in this case, not only will I have arguments to discuss with my dad, I will feel better knowing that I didnt make a mistake by choosing DO over MD.

Sorry. 😳 I'm more of the blunt type person. My husband is the compromiser, the manipulator, the one for discussion. I'm more of the "here it is, take it or leave it" kind of person.

But my clumsily put point is really the one at heart here. There are lots of people who post with similar problems who just don't want to face the real issue and make the decision to fight or fold.

Good luck to you. There's a lot of good information here to help you educate. Let us know how it goes.

 

[rom3o]

Why do DO's have such a negative stigma attached? I actually read in a book that DO schools were more difficult to get into than MD schools. DO schools only 1 in 5 are admitted.

 

[DrMidlife]

Why do DO's have such a negative stigma attached? I actually read in a book that DO schools were more difficult to get into than MD schools. DO schools only 1 in 5 are admitted.

Maybe a book from 1892... You can find good data on MD schools at www.aamc.org, and DO schools at www.aacom.org.

About 40% get accepted, both MD and DO. Average GPA and MCAT are lower for DO.

 

[rom3o]

Maybe a book from 1892... You can find good data on MD schools at www.aamc.org, and DO schools at www.aacom.org.

About 40% get accepted, both MD and DO. Average GPA and MCAT are lower for DO.

Nah, 2003, nice try though.

Although osteopaths are highly regarded, especially as the US focuses on primary health care needs, a DO degree may make it slightly more difficult to get a highly competitive residency. It is also more competitive to get into osteopathic schools: Fewer than one in five applicants is accepted.

Now either this was a) a typo and meant to say allopathic, or b) more competitive because there are fewer osteopathic schools than allopathic schools.

 

[DrMidlife]

Unhelpful book. Won't kill you to follow a link to a governing body's web page to look at publicly available, official data.

There are about 11,500 applicants for about 4,500 seats. Here are the last 10 years worth of data.

 

[DC DOC]

Hi everyone,

My dad is an MD and me and him have both agreed on me pursuing a career in medicine. Although my GPA is great, my MCAT scores have not been up to par for medical schools here in the United States. After this dilemma, a couple of my friends have suggested doing DO. I believe my MCAT scores would suffice for going to DO school.

It does not matter to me. I am in the business of helping people regardless if MD or DO comes after my name. However, my father is urging me NOT to goto DO school. He says they are not as well respected, do not make as much money, etc.

What are some convincing arguments I could give him?

Thanks.

I wouldn't worry about money or reputation. What I would worry about is whether or not you could bear being a D.O.. They make plenty of money and are not paid any less than a M.D., my brother in-law is now doing a Peds fellowship in Anesthesiology and will be working at a prestigious children's hospital, guaranteed at least 400K a year and he has a D.O. after his name. It doesn't matter, what matters is what you are comfortable being and your dedication. Maybe give your dad some reading material on the subject or just retake the MCAT.

 

[Scorcher31]

I think it's been summed up pretty well and as everyone said the money is the same. Just something that irks me is how money hungry everyone is. Any family combined over 100k a year to my understanding is in the top 5% income bracket. So think of how hard it is on everyone else. Yes loans suck, but we can pay them off quickly and money isn't everything. You can go on vacations anywhere you want (provided you actually get time off) and stay at 4 and 5 star hotels anywhere you want, go out to very nice restaurants and lead a pretty extravagant lifestyle with a combined income of in the 100k's. Don't forget if the price of living costs a lot more where you live you will most likely make more. What more do people want 3 houses? A small island? Focus on the one thing that gives you pleasure, video games and movies, or traveling and dining, a fancy house, etc. At least know what makes you happy in life. I just don't get it I feel like so many people I've met don't actually care about people, just about money and prestige (not referring to anyone in this post including the Topic creator.) ... Steps down off soapboax =).

 

[cardmagi]

Thanks everyone for the great answers.

What I would worry about is whether or not you could bear being a D.O.

What do you mean by this?

Thanks.

 

[WDeagle]

I was in a similar situation as you(except not arabic and osteopathic was my first choice). My father was initially a douche about it but now he really likes the DO thing. This is probably helped by the fact that the two DO's he knows are probably the most badass doctors in the city he practices in. I find it somewhat amusing when foreign trained MD's who really earned an MBBS criticize american DO's because they they dont have MD writen by their name. Also, if your MCAT is low why dont you consider retaking it?

 

[Scorcher31]

He means if it would bother you personally being a DO. I.E. it's not really what you want/ you wouldn't be happy doing it. To me it doesn’t seem like that’s a problem for you at all and some of the advice was very good. Just so you know I would avoid cranial talk and possibly OMT talk with your father. I can tell you that the majority of DO's do not practice OMT. Some of them that don't practice it still think certain aspects of it are valid though. It's one of those things where some things work pretty well, some kind of work (short lived temporary relief), and some don't really work (cranial) at least in my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own. Personally it’s worth learning though and does develop your palpatory skills hey maybe it will help you pick out a ductal breast carcinoma some day.

 

[cardmagi]

Also, if your MCAT is low why dont you consider retaking it?

I am retaking it. So far, I can't seem to get my score to what I need. I am just trying to cover my bases because application deadlines are coming up.

He means if it would bother you personally being a DO. I.E. it's not really what you want/ you wouldn't be happy doing it.

Oh, I got what he meant. I just wanted to him to expand on his statement. (you did a good job though, thanks!)

 

[azarep74]

Hi everyone,

My dad is an MD and me and him have both agreed on me pursuing a career in medicine. Although my GPA is great, my MCAT scores have not been up to par for medical schools here in the United States. After this dilemma, a couple of my friends have suggested doing DO. I believe my MCAT scores would suffice for going to DO school.

It does not matter to me. I am in the business of helping people regardless if MD or DO comes after my name. However, my father is urging me NOT to goto DO school. He says they are not as well respected, do not make as much money, etc.

What are some convincing arguments I could give him?

Thanks.

Cardmagi,

I just wanted to chime in here even if to say I know how it feels. I have borderline stats so I am watilisted at an MD school and I did get accepted at a DO school. Overall I just want be a good doctor so the DO degree is just as tenable as the MD degree, although if given a choice I prefer the MD. I started talking to my Mum, yes we are from England, about the DO degree and she has been a staunch thorn in my side ever since I mentioned it to her. What I mean to say is she told me straight that DO's are not real doctors. What ensued was a reference list provided by me to Mum on the subject of DO's and what they do, who they are, what specialties they enter and how much they earn. To no avail, Mum still says they are not real doctors. At the end of the day, I tried my best and I am happy with that. To borrow your idea, instead of a full-blown rebellion, I rebelled with a degree of respect and integrity. At the same time it has to be said that Mum frustrates me to the point of no return. Instead of politics, now we talk about inflation, crude oil, and when she's going to make scons next.

Good luck to you anyway, I know you will be a good doc!

 

[Scorcher31]

If that's not what he meant, I'm sure I'll be yelled at in the morning 😛

 

[Scorcher31]

Just to throw in that in many countries (not sure of which ones) a DO degree is not the same as it is in the USA. In many other countries a DO just practices OMT without practicing traditional, I guess you can say allopathic style medicine. Keep that in mind when your talking with family members that come from other countries. You might want to look into it and see if it is different over there as that may have skewed their opinion.

In addition, in the USA many patients do not know if their physician is an MD or a DO (no matter their specialization), and honestly could care less who they are going to if they like their doctor.

 

[majatoi]

Of course you have a chance as a DO, but you made it sound like you have a better chance to get into a competitive residency as a DO just by virtue of the fact that you also have DO residencies open to you, which MD students (like me) do not. In my assessment, this is not true. Obviously it depends on a variety of interpersonal factors blah blah blah but I think it's overextending on a claim to say it's easier to get into competitive specialties. I agree with your opinion that if you're not competitive for MD and you want the most residency options, you should go DO.

The "we" to which I refer is MD students.

Just to clarify on this point, I have done extensive research on this. While DOs can participate in the DO and MD match, you can't simultaneously. The DO matching process is before the MD matching process. Furthermore, in order to participate in both.. you have to not match your choice in the DO and then participate in the MD match. However, if you don't match in the DO programs, I doubt you will have much more luck in the MD match.

The other track is to participate only in the DO match or only in the MD match. If you participate in the DO match and you match ... then you are automatically dropped from the MD matching process and not allowed to participate in it because you have already matched.

Lastly, if you decide to participate only in the MD match, you are essentially putting all your eggs in one basket and attempting to only match in the MD programs.

They all run their risks, however, if you have your hopes set on a MD residency, I actually think its slightly harder to land your harder residency programs, but it is possible because about 76% of the DOs who participated in the MD match .. matched. As opposed to the 48% or so IMGs matching in the MD residency.

Most DOs will have to study and take both the USMLEs (MD boards) and the COMLEX (DO boards) who want to possibly try the run into a MD residency. Some MD residencies (very few) do not require the USMLEs anymore, and are willing to look at your COMLEX scores alone.

Good luck in your decision making! 🙂

 

[Scorcher31]

majatoi I agree with you to a certain extent about matching. Many people i know will try o match something harder in do residency and try to match into something easier in the allo residency. Like if someone applies to the DO surgery residencies and then MD internal medicine recedency. Obviously this isin't going to work if you have your heart set on one thing, but if you have a couple things you like its not a bad way to go.

As for the USMLE bit it still depends on what your going into, but I have been told unless you have a specific place you want to go to or trying to get into a super hard field not to worry about it. Even over the past 5 or 10 year places are taking just the COMLEX more and more. With that said I want to do pysch or internal medicine somewhere within eastern pennsylvania or southern jersey so theres a lot of places to go and I'm not too picky about where or if it is a DO or MD residency. Just rock your interview and maybe go down before your interview and get to meet people and check the place out.

 

[MJB]

It's funny how some folks we might expect to be amongst the more educated on this subject are actually the most ignorant?

I'm sorry for those of you that have to deal with this from your parents.

 

[DrWBD]

If your MCAT is what's keeping you out of an MD school, maybe the appropriate thing to do would be to study harder, retake the MCAT and get a better score.

 

[Scorcher31]

Maybe it's me, but I had no desire to retake the MCAT and I'm like that for any test. I knew I could do much better, but thought my grade was fine and diddn't really see the point. Write a good essay, get some good letters, shadow a doctor for awhile, and work on your interview skills. If you can sell yourself at an interview while still seeming like your relaxed, friendly, and without seeming cocky you'll be fine. If you really bomb it you might have to retake it, but unless your heart is in it I wouldn't bother. MCAT dosen't mean anything once your in medical school there are plenty of people that did well that really don't do that great even in the book work and vice versa. The administration knows it just be confident and be able to think on your feet if they ask you.

 

[DrWBD]

Maybe it's me, but I had no desire to retake the MCAT and I'm like that for any test. I knew I could do much better, but thought my grade was fine and diddn't really see the point.

In other words, you're a slacker who set his sights low. Who cares what _you_ thought about your score? Isn't it the school's opinion about your score that counts?

MCAT dosen't mean anything once your in medical school.

Untrue. At the very least, there is correlation between MCAT scores and board scores, which intuitively makes sense, as both are standardized tests that require long periods of study to do well on. I won't get into whether or not having good board scores makes you a good clinician, but to say that MCAT scores aren't important is specious.

 

[farnsworth]

In other words, you're a slacker who set his sights low. Who cares what _you_ thought about your score? Isn't it the school's opinion about your score that counts?

I agree with you here. A sense of self-satisfaction with your score doesn't mean jack, unfortunately. I would, however say that satisfaction with a score should = achieving a score that allows you to accomplish your goals. If his score allowed him to do that (i.e. if his goal was just to get into a medical school and he felt his score was enough for that), then you can't fault him on that. Some people are satisfied with a 25. Some people are pissed they got a 34. It's a pretty individual measure.

A word of advice though (just to premeds in general): an effective attitude widely used by successful med students is to perform well as much as you can in everything you can, at the very least "to keep your options open". I mean you may be CERTAIN that you only want to do peds, you don't care where you go, and so you just feel like you "just have to pass". Well what if you meet someone, and want to have some security about location? If there's maybe half a dozen programs in any given big city, many of them strong programs, you may look back with a bit of regret on an attitude of "eh, I just need a 200 or so" if you match in Oklahoma and wanted to be in New York. And people very often change their mind. What if you fall in love with ophtho third year? All of a sudden you no longer are able to be the doctor you'd like to be because you figured, "eh who cares" too often. That's why it's such a widely adopted personal policy to put in your best effort when there's a measure set before you - because you never know. So if you think your MCAT score is good enough, you may be right, and it may never come up again. But as tacky as it sounds, make sure you always do your best, because that's the best way to insure yourself against regrets. Can't have regrets if you did your best.

Untrue. At the very least, there is correlation between MCAT scores and board scores, which intuitively makes sense, as both are standardized tests that require long periods of study to do well on. I won't get into whether or not having good board scores makes you a good clinician, but to say that MCAT scores aren't important is specious.

Ordinarily I defend the validity of the MCAT as an entrance requirement, but I don't think the modest MCAT-Step I correlation is germaine to the issue discussed here, in which we're considering just being a doctor (MD sounds like his preference) as the primary concern. If that's the case, I don't think we would advise him that due to his relatively low MCAT score, he stands a significantly higher chance of failing the USMLE, thus his MCAT score remains a clear detriment to his goal. If his stated goal is to become a doctor, then I agree with whoever said "MCAT doesn't matter once you get in." If his goal is to get into a competitive specialty, then I'd agree with you, as objective predictors (MCAT) of his ability to achieve that goal suggest he'd be at a disadvantage. Not to mention, in the more competitive specialties, programs actually do consider undergraduate measurements (GPA, MCAT; albeit lower on the list of importance) in residency selection, for example there was a study on ortho program directors rating factors, and undergrad GPA & MCAT made the list somewhere in the middle under all the more important stuff like Step I, research, etc.

 

[Lamborghini1315]

My dad's a pharmacist and he had no idea what DO was and assumed it was homeopathy hehe Well let me tell ya i totally gave him a crash course a few years ago and now he corrects those who talk about the differences between MD's and DO's. Its part ignorance and part stigma..if your own father can't be convinced trust me the lay person will never get it. I always correct my family, friends whenever i feel like they are talking without a clue..but idk end of the day i feel like DO's are a lot more familiar now. I live in a doctor town dominated by MD's and i see no DO's here. Through my encounters i have learned that MD's are way more knowledgeable about our existence now although they still think we learn some kinda of magic in osteopathic schools hehe the best i ever heard was this one doc try to explain to me that DO's were always into "bones" and they tend to go into orthopedics..i chuckled. He was right around my grandpa's age though and i wasn't particularly mad or anything about any of my encounters because none of them made me feel like i was making a mistake but they genuinely sold their MD brand. I thought that was fair because if you go to a DO what are they gonna say? oh hey DO's suck go to an allopathic school. The decision really is in your hands...whatever your reasons are to go the DO route be 110 percent bought into the idea don't let opinions of others deter you.

 

[DC DOC]

If that's not what he meant, I'm sure I'll be yelled at in the morning 😛

Thanks Scorcher, that is exactly what I meant. It is personal whether or not someone would want to receive medical training through an institution that is not considered orthodox medicine to a majority of the public. If you are comfortable like I am, it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Oculomotor]

cardmagi,

My best friend was in the same predicament as yourself. He had a 3.2 GPA (in Psychology), Pre-requisite GPA of 3.1, and an MCAT of 27. He applied for MD schools for 2 years and did not get accepted. I advised him at that point to apply for a DO school. He looked at me with a blank stare and said--what is that? I told him it is a professional degree that trains the "other" 5-10% of the physicians in this country with the SAME medical license. The DO schools are signifigantly less competitive to gain acceptance to BUT produce equally competent physicians:


2006
Average Matriculation GPA

MD - 3.65
DO - 3.45

Average Matriculant MCAT

MD - 30
DO - 25

sources:
AACOM
http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/cib2009/2009_CIB_web.pdf
page 8

AAMC
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2007/2007mcatgpa.htm

Other Professional school program's matriculant GPA's (2007)

Dentistry (Doctor of Dental Medcine) - 3.50
http://www.ada.org/

Optometry (Doctor of Optometry) - 3.44
http://www.opted.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=1

Podiatry (Doctor of Podiatric Medicine) -3.3
http://www.aacpm.org/html/statistics/PDFs/MatrStats/Matriculant_GPA.pdf

He applied to 6 DO schools and got accepted to 4. Currently he is a 2nd year DO student doing very very well. Osteopathic Medical School falls just under Dentistry and in the same realm as Optometry in terms of competitiveness in matriculation. But just as I told him-----"you will have the same medical license as an MD, be equivalent in training to an MD, and although your credential (DO) my not carry as much panache as an (MD) "generally speaking"----you are a physician regardless===so go apply!"

 

[QofQuimica]

Hi everyone,

My dad is an MD and me and him have both agreed on me pursuing a career in medicine. Although my GPA is great, my MCAT scores have not been up to par for medical schools here in the United States. After this dilemma, a couple of my friends have suggested doing DO. I believe my MCAT scores would suffice for going to DO school.

It does not matter to me. I am in the business of helping people regardless if MD or DO comes after my name. However, my father is urging me NOT to goto DO school. He says they are not as well respected, do not make as much money, etc.

What are some convincing arguments I could give him?

Thanks.

It sounds like your dad is not very familiar with DOs; maybe you live in a state where there are not many of them practicing. I think it would really help if you could let your dad know more about DOs, and he could see for himself how little difference there really is between MDs and DOs in their scope of practice, earnings, and respect.

I'm in the opposite situation as you; my dad is a DO (now retired), and I am going to an MD school. (Though, at least he does know what an MD is!) My dad practiced as a family physician and geriatrician for 40 years. He started out in the "good ol' days" before HMOs and managed care, made house calls, did surgery, got paid with vegetables and eggs, delivered babies. There was never any restriction on his practice due to his degree whatsoever. He practiced with MDs as well as other DOs and had hospital privileges everywhere we lived (in a few different states). Some of his patients grew up and then brought their own kids to see him; he had families where he took care of everyone from the little babies to the great-grandparents. Many of his patients trusted his judgment more than that of the MD specialists; it was common for patients he referred to MD specialists to come back to him and ask if they really ought to take the medicines that Dr. Hotshot prescribed. They did not know or care what the title on his degree was; what mattered to the patients was the kind of doctor that he was.

If I were you, I would try applying for both MD and DO schools that you think you might like to attend. Go wherever you get in; if you get into more than one school, then pick the one you like best (or that is the cheapest), regardless of which degree it offers. Ten years from now when you are a practicing MD or DO physician, your dad will be bragging to all of his friends about how you are a doctor regardless of which degree you have. 😀

Best of luck to you. 🙂

 

[MaximusD]

Thanks everyone for the great answers.



What do you mean by this?

Thanks.

I'm going to get burnt at the stake here, but you should also understand that DO schools are NOT all created equal. Certain DO schools have better reputations than others and are situated in areas that position their students for better match results.

Established schools would include but are not limited to PCOM, CCOM, NYCOM, NSUCOM, Western, UNECOM, and DMU among others...

I would personally recommend a school situated in a city, as there are many close affiliated hospitals that will recognize students and residency applicants from your school and usually are training graduates of that school...

Just a consideration that hasn't been mentioned.

 

[roc]

I would say: apply to both schools NOW. Dont wait. I made the mistake of applying too late on both sides.

retake the MCAT again, probably in Sept.

After you get in somewhere, then you make the decision on where to go. I wouldnt stress yourself too much about the whole DO vs MD thing. Just worry about MCAT and getting in your apps.

There is no paygrade difference. maybe all the DOs your father know are hoarding their money instead of spending it on expensive cars and houses.

 

[roc]

I'm going to get burnt at the stake here, but you should also understand that DO schools are NOT all created equal. Certain DO schools have better reputations than others and are situated in areas that position their students for better match results.

Established schools would include but are not limited to PCOM, CCOM, NYCOM, NSUCOM, Western, UNECOM, and DMU among others...

I would personally recommend a school situated in a city, as there are many close affiliated hospitals that will recognize students and residency applicants from your school and usually are training graduates of that school...

Just a consideration that hasn't been mentioned.

you will be burnt because it is total bs. Just look at the match results from all the DO schools will prove you wrong. look at the anesthesia matches at cleveland clinic, southwestern, or hopkins. And that's just one of the examples.

 

[EastWestN2grt]

you will be burnt because it is total bs. Just look at the match results from all the DO schools will prove you wrong. look at the anesthesia matches at cleveland clinic, southwestern, or hopkins. And that's just one of the examples.

Lets see...this is the Gas & Critical Care Residents for Hopkins 2007: (Do a Google search)

Residents Joining Our Program in July 2007
Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine
University of Texas Medical School at Galveston
Rosalind Franklin University/Chicago Medical School
Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine
Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine
Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine
Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine, Midwestern University
Baylor College of Medicine
University of Illiinois College of Medicine
Vanderbilt University School of Medicine
Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine
Oklahoma State University College of Osteopathic Medicine
University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine
University of Medicine & Dentistry of New J./Johnson Med School
University of Maryland School of Medicine
Mercer University School of Medicine
Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine
University of Hawaii, John A. Burns School of Medicine
University of Rochester School of Medicine and Dentistry
Ohio State University College of Medicine

So 1/7 of the 2007 residents are DO students. Just for comparison- ~1/10 US physicians are DO, ~1/5 med students are DO. So we are holding our own even at Hopkins Gas. The issue that continues to irk me, is this general belief that the more graduates you get into Gas, Derm, Rads residencies is an indicator of how good a school is. That is absolute crap! There is a direct correlation between the competitiveness of a residency and the financial return of that sub-specialty. There is more competition because people want to get paid more, thats it. But is this better for society in general, or at the least better for U.S medicine--no! To pay 2 - 6 times more for these fields than primary care is ludicrous. This country doesn't need more gas pumping docs we need more docs working with the millions and millions uninsured and underserved. So for me, the more a school gets its graduates into primary care, and more importantly practicing in underserved communities then the better for U.S medicine, the better for society, and the better the school!

These are the docs that should be getting paid!

 

[roc]

I am sorry but I wasnt trying to denigrate one specialty over another. gas is what I know since it is my top interest after IM.

I meant to say:
it really doesnt matter what DO school you went to, you can endup where and in what your heart desires. Match results across the board from all DO programs prove that. This notion that going to DMU/PCOM/CCOM will give you the highest chance of getting a derm or rad or fp residency is bull crap.

You are looking at the match from hopkins only for 2007: many more accepted the year before that but only one this year. Not to mention, quite number of DOs endup becoming chief res in their respective allo programs. 🙂


To OP, I cant tell you how many times I have asked DO attendings/residents about their treatment compared to MDs by patients/staff. Not even one spoke in difference.

From what I noticed, once you hold the title of "dr", everyone is on the same big boat (the barely floating healthcare boat).

 

[EastWestN2grt]

I am sorry but I wasnt trying to denigrate one specialty over another. gas is what I know since it is my top interest after IM.

I meant to say:
it really doesnt matter what DO school you went to, you can endup where and in what your heart desires. Match results across the board from all DO programs prove that. This notion that going to DMU/PCOM/CCOM will give you the highest chance of getting a derm or rad or fp residency is bull crap.

You are looking at the match from hopkins only for 2007: many more accepted the year before that but only one this year. Not to mention, quite number of DOs endup becoming chief res in their respective allo programs. 🙂


To OP, I cant tell you how many times I have asked DO attendings/residents about their treatment compared to MDs by patients/staff. Not even one spoke in difference.

From what I noticed, once you hold the title of "dr", everyone is on the same big boat (the barely floating healthcare boat).

Yeah before I submitted my comments I considered looking for match rates from other years--but got to lazy...or actually not lazy realized i need to focus my attention on studying for cumulative exams coming up in a few weeks--I think my class at SOMA are the only 2011 class still in school(4 weeks and counting!!!)

My comment was a general comment to the SDN community as a whole, not aimed specifically to you. I think so many on these boards get into this mindset of judging schools based on the residency match rates. I personally would be very disappointed if less than 90% of my class are primary care matches because that is the mission of SOMA. But in the eyes of many on these boards if the school doesnt produce a high number of more competitive matches than the school is "no good" or sub-standard or something. Thats my only issue! Its really about just changing the mindset in the US medical culture. The easiest way this would happen is if the primary care fields got paid more, >200K to start, and the subspecialties get paid less not the ludicrous amounts some are getting paid now. Like for example...Derm....can someone truly justify being able to "generate $550k per year" [2001 Physician compensation report] as a dermatologist....??? its crazy.

I think its just another indicator of how much US medicine needs to be fixed.

 

[Apexx]

In addition, in the USA many patients do not know if their physician is an MD or a DO (no matter their specialization), and honestly could care less who they are going to if they like their doctor.

This has been my experience too. If they like you and you help them you could have B.S. after your name and it wouldn't matter...they will be coming back.

 

[eldoctoraz]

If there is the same percent of bad DO's as there are bad MD's, then there are actually many more bad MD's in the US...

Ever met or been a patient of a physician who is really rude and has the personality of a doorknob? Then ever ask yourself why that person actually became a doc in the first place, because it obviously wasn't because he or she cared about people?

For those DO's out there who did pretty well on USMLE Step 1, have you ever met a rude attending or allopathic student and think "I probably did better than him or her on boards!"

Just a few thoughts...

 

[SomeDoc]

Hi everyone,

My dad is an MD and me and him have both agreed on me pursuing a career in medicine. Although my GPA is great, my MCAT scores have not been up to par for medical schools here in the United States. After this dilemma, a couple of my friends have suggested doing DO. I believe my MCAT scores would suffice for going to DO school.

It does not matter to me. I am in the business of helping people regardless if MD or DO comes after my name. However, my father is urging me NOT to goto DO school. He says they are not as well respected, do not make as much money, etc.

What are some convincing arguments I could give him?

Thanks.

Grow some cojones. This topic sounds like something you'd expect to see in a high school discussion.

 

[umean2tellme]

Grow some cojones. This topic sounds like something you'd expect to see in a high school discussion.

👍 If you're old enough to apply to medical school then chances are you're old enough to make decisions without your parents approval.

 

[bkpa2med]

The only difference is OMM. There is no other difference with modern day MDs. Please don't give me that BS of treating the whole person because, like it or not, most competent doctors (MD or DO) practice that way.

 

[USArmyDoc]

Not for nothing, everyone makes the biggest deal about allo residencies requiring the USMLE. Is it an advantage to taking the test? Absolutely, but I have spoken to a lot of PD's and they told me to do good on the boards...period

With that being said, I am sure it varies.

Just to clarify on this point, I have done extensive research on this. While DOs can participate in the DO and MD match, you can't simultaneously. The DO matching process is before the MD matching process. Furthermore, in order to participate in both.. you have to not match your choice in the DO and then participate in the MD match. However, if you don't match in the DO programs, I doubt you will have much more luck in the MD match.

The other track is to participate only in the DO match or only in the MD match. If you participate in the DO match and you match ... then you are automatically dropped from the MD matching process and not allowed to participate in it because you have already matched.

Lastly, if you decide to participate only in the MD match, you are essentially putting all your eggs in one basket and attempting to only match in the MD programs.

They all run their risks, however, if you have your hopes set on a MD residency, I actually think its slightly harder to land your harder residency programs, but it is possible because about 76% of the DOs who participated in the MD match .. matched. As opposed to the 48% or so IMGs matching in the MD residency.

Most DOs will have to study and take both the USMLEs (MD boards) and the COMLEX (DO boards) who want to possibly try the run into a MD residency. Some MD residencies (very few) do not require the USMLEs anymore, and are willing to look at your COMLEX scores alone.

Good luck in your decision making! 🙂

 

[eag]

Not for nothing, everyone makes the biggest deal about allo residencies requiring the USMLE. Is it an advantage to taking the test? Absolutely, but I have spoken to a lot of PD's and they told me to do good on the boards...period

With that being said, I am sure it varies.

It depends on how competitive the program is. I know the more competitive programs in peds have basically said they want to see at least the Step 1. Some have gone even farther and pretty much said they want the Step 2 also. So, the best way to find out for sure is to speak directly to PD and get a direct answer for each specific program.