Cookie Cutter ADCOMs

[choppo23]

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Unfortunately, I've applied 2 years in a row without success and have realized that Med School ADCOMs are inept, and consistently admit the same type of student year in and year out. They seem to want young, inexperienced, kids who just study and memorize stuff to pass exams, and care very little about training innovative physicians.

Allow me to explain. I have a PhD in Molecular Biology, have authored several manuscripts in high-impact journals, hold international patents in biotechnology, and while a graduate student tutored MD and MD/PhD students in biology classes. I attend genetic and cancer research meetings and regularly interact with attending MD's and MD/PhDs where I am treated as their equal, as a research leader in the pharmaceutical world. I have a decent undergrad/stellar grad record and an above average MCAT.

I also made it a point to mention my current research and plans after I am a physician. Whole genome sequencing has become more and more affordable and the physician of the future will utilize these technologies to predict response to therapeutics, as well as adverse effects.

I applied to 10 schools (8 MD and 2 DO), and for whatever reason, I have received a grand total of ZERO interviews. One explanation is that I am not a good candidate, but I don't think that is feasible. Another is that I was judged with a computer system that does not reflect my non-metric, but extremely critical merits. Let's keep in mind, I am not speaking about acceptance, but just an interview.

However, what I think the case is that I am considered too old. Apparently, all of these 22 year old students from random schools (some of which may be exceedingly simple to have a really high GPA) are better candidates than me. Sorry, that's simply impossible, or is it that the medical community is afraid of somebody like me. Are there senior members of the ADCOMs, that want to preserve the good ole boys club, and only admit the young, pre-Med from birth crew that simply can memorize vs. understand and innovate? I'm not saying some of these young cats won't do that, in fact, some will undoubtedly will be more innovative than me in the long run. But as a group, I feel I may be part of the discriminated against.

Sorry to rant, but I was wondering if there are other non-trads with great experiences and credentials not getting a look. To me it seems narrow, unfair, and simply stupid for us not to get a fair look. I'm applying one more year, and if rejected will continue on my current career (which I'm also happy with and already established). But, I'll guarantee those ADCOMs (and Deans) will receive very pointed and blunt criticism from me, perhaps with lawsuits.

 

[QofQuimica]

I realize you're posting out of frustration, and it's hard to give you answers when you've provided us only a fraction of the picture. It would be highly relevant to know, for example, what your GPA/MCAT are, what state you're from, and a general range of how old you are. BUT, speaking as both a PhD-to-MD and as someone who spent four years on an adcom, you're wrong about adcoms, and you're wrong about why you didn't get accepted. Yes, there is a problem of some kind here, but the problem is *not* that adcoms are discriminating against you. The problem is on your end.

I will tell you that, without a doubt, there is something about your app that is turning people off. It might be a perception of arrogance/entitlement (which, if your essays come off like your "rant" did, is entirely possible). It might be that you aren't giving a clear explanation for "why med school?" (After reading your post, I still have no idea why you can't accomplish your career goals as a PhD, and I get no sense of your desire to work with people rather than in a lab.) It might be that you've applied to the wrong schools (and 10 is probably too few for most people; I applied to twice as many as you did, and that was seven years ago). It might be that your letters aren't quite as stellar as you think they are; it didn't happen often, but we'd get the occasional applicant with a LOR that made us go, "uh, no." I could go on, but you get the idea.

If you want to be successful in this process, then you need to take an honest look at what *you* are doing wrong in terms of presenting yourself as a viable candidate for medical school, and you need to check your ego at the door and fix whatever the perceived deficiencies in your app are. I suggest that you start by calling some of the schools that rejected you, and ask them for advice about how to strengthen your app. Whenever you get the same feedback from multiple schools, take it to heart, and do something to fix the problem. You won't be successful the third time around applying either if you keep using the same failed app strategies.

Finally, hang in there. The PhD-to-MD path is well-blazed, and it *is* possible for PhDs to be successful in the admissions process. Feel free to use this forum as a source of info and support, and best of luck to you.

 

[MT Headed]

We really need to know your undergrad GPA and undergrad science GPA.

'Decent undergrad gpa' is meaningless to us.
'Stellar grad GPA' is meaningless to the adcoms.
'Above average MCAT' is meaningless. I think the average MCAT score is 26. You could have an above average MCAT score and not be competitive for MD or DO schools.

 

[choppo23]

Wow! After re-reading my post late last night, I'm sure glad I didn't fill out my application drunk! Sorry to come across so poorly...it was fueled by frustration and alcohol.

I didn't mean to say that the 22 year old crew were simply memorizers and not thinkers, as that is simply not true. What I meant to say was that I felt ADCOM's may overvalue a 22 year old with great GPA and MCAT (of whom I would guess would comprise the majority of the application pool) and not place enough emphasis on accomplishments post-graduation. There are other statements I'd like to clarify, but I simply don't have the time right now...

My undergraduate GPA was a 3.0 (from a top 15 liberal arts school) and a 3.6 in graduate school. I was a varsity starting NCAA athlete. I took my MCATs after 10 years of taking the pre-reqs, and relearned just from a Kaplan book and got a 27O. I know the MCATs are not stellar, but many of the schools I applied to have average scores in the 27-30 range. I am 32 years old. Shadowed an MD and a DO. I'm really hoping I don't have a bad letter of recommendation. Although I don't suspect it, I can see my former mentor being bitter as he ran out of funding after I defended my thesis, at the same time I left for my next position. There is no way I could justify staying, unpaid, to put my own career on hold and in jeopardy, but I was probably his last hope.

I don't think it's feasible with my work and family schedule to find the time to study again, and re-take the MCATs. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[LUCPM]

Since you haven't given up yet, I would definitely apply more broadly next cycle. Like the above poster mentioned, talk to schools that rejected you and learn if you can improve your application. Having attended several DO interviews this cycle, I feel that DO schools are more receptive to older applicants but they were all curious about my motivation. For me, the only way to prove my motivation was to have somewhat meaningful clinical experience (worked as a CNA) and address this accordingly in my PS. You definitely have a lot to bring to the table but bringing a lawsuit is not going to help you. Best of luck to you.

 

[DrMidlife]

I found it effective, as a 40+ year old 3.0/31 candidate, to mold myself to the admissions standards of the existing medical education system, and to do what I need to do to get accepted on terms set by medical schools. It makes no difference whatsoever whether I approve of those terms or not.

I did not try to get medical schools to accept my impressive and influential previous career in lieu of presenting assets comparable to those of a 22 year old. I exerted myself to acquire the assets that a medical school can use to fairly and effectively compare me to a 22 year old.

To be a successful US MD applicant, I needed to do more undergrad and an SMP. I needed to do menial work as a hospital volunteer. I needed to apply multiple times. I could have chosen to be righteously indignant at the need to do these things. Instead, I'm going to med school.

Best of luck to you.

 

[MT Headed]

So you are applying to medical school with a 3.0 undergrad GPA and a 27 MCAT. That's why you are not getting interviews. For whatever reason, medical schools don't pay much attention to graduate school experience. I don't know why; I don't make the rules; it is what it is.

You need a better MCAT and undergraduate GPA repair and/or an SMP to show the adcoms that you can survive the medical school academic experience, because frankly that is what they are worried about. Not the fact that you can remember the Bush/Dukakis election. Hell I voted for Dukakis in that election and I got an acceptance this season.

Since it is becoming more clear what the problem is, and it's a problem many have had before you, there are probably better sources of advice than this thread. Study the underdog threads here and in the pre-allo / pre-osteo forums. Study the reapplicant forum. Study the postbacc/SMP forum. Most importantly make a post in the What-Are-My-Chances forum, because some real experts like Cat will ask you pointed questions, tear you a new one, and tell you exactly what you need to do to improve your application.

If you really can't stomach taking some undergrad classes again (I took physics & organic chemistry when I was 41) and you really want to become a doctor, then I think you'll need to improve that MCAT and do an SMP. When you're in that SMP, perform as if your future career depended on it. Because it will.


(also, like Q said, (1) what state are you from, and (2) what schools did you apply to?)

 

[thlaxer]

Wow! After re-reading my post late last night, I'm sure glad I didn't fill out my application drunk! Sorry to come across so poorly...it was fueled by frustration and alcohol.

I didn't mean to say that the 22 year old crew were simply memorizers and not thinkers, as that is simply not true. What I meant to say was that I felt ADCOM's may overvalue a 22 year old with great GPA and MCAT (of whom I would guess would comprise the majority of the application pool) and not place enough emphasis on accomplishments post-graduation. There are other statements I'd like to clarify, but I simply don't have the time right now...

My undergraduate GPA was a 3.0 (from a top 15 liberal arts school) and a 3.6 in graduate school. I was a varsity starting NCAA athlete. I took my MCATs after 10 years of taking the pre-reqs, and relearned just from a Kaplan book and got a 27O. I know the MCATs are not stellar, but many of the schools I applied to have average scores in the 27-30 range. I am 32 years old. Shadowed an MD and a DO. I'm really hoping I don't have a bad letter of recommendation. Although I don't suspect it, I can see my former mentor being bitter as he ran out of funding after I defended my thesis, at the same time I left for my next position. There is no way I could justify staying, unpaid, to put my own career on hold and in jeopardy, but I was probably his last hope.

I don't think it's feasible with my work and family schedule to find the time to study again, and re-take the MCATs. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The 3.0/27O are two of your bigger problems imo. Not many 22 year olds are getting interviews with those scores either. Lack of volunteering, bad LORs, a hint of arrogance in your essays may have also been factors.. Also, your school list may have also worked against you as well (only 2 DO schools?). I doubt applying a third time would have a different outcome unless you can significantly improve your application. Imo, this means finding time to study for and retake the MCAT and doing additional coursework (upper division/SMP) to show you can handle it.

 

[choppo23]

Great, thanks for the advice everybody. I guess my logical thinking said the graduate record is more indicative of my abilities than my undergraduate, but as many have pointed out, the ADCOMs for whatever reason, don't see it that way. I did have one Admissions officer tell me that they would use my graduate GPA in lieu of my undergrad, and so I based everything off of that.

I'm married with 2 young children, and so the only way economically I thought this would work would be to live near our families (free daycare). Thus, I applied to all of the NJ and Philly MD and DO schools. Yes, I even wasted my money on U Penn.

I'm sure this region is a highly desirable location to go to med school so competition is probably stiff.

I also didn't get my apps in until October this cycle, as I took an Organic Chem class to make up for a not so great performance in undergrad (D+), and wanted to have the new grade (A-) before applying. As far as MCAT, I was told at Cooper Med School of Rowan (brand new school) that they consider 27 and above MCATs to be on the same level, as there is very little difference in med school performance between students accepted within this range.

I guess they all have different criteria. Does anybody know if there is a computerized weed-out based on numbers alone that precludes a human, holistic review of the application?

 

[dbizzy]

Great, thanks for the advice everybody. I guess my logical thinking said the graduate record is more indicative of my abilities than my undergraduate, but as many have pointed out, the ADCOMs for whatever reason, don't see it that way. I did have one Admissions officer tell me that they would use my graduate GPA in lieu of my undergrad, and so I based everything off of that.

I'm married with 2 young children, and so the only way economically I thought this would work would be to live near our families (free daycare). Thus, I applied to all of the NJ and Philly MD and DO schools. Yes, I even wasted my money on U Penn.

I'm sure this region is a highly desirable location to go to med school so competition is probably stiff.

I also didn't get my apps in until October this cycle, as I took an Organic Chem class to make up for a not so great performance in undergrad (D+), and wanted to have the new grade (A-) before applying. As far as MCAT, I was told at Cooper Med School of Rowan (brand new school) that they consider 27 and above MCATs to be on the same level, as there is very little difference in med school performance between students accepted within this range.

I guess they all have different criteria. Does anybody know if there is a computerized weed-out based on numbers alone that precludes a human, holistic review of the application?

Your stats have surpassed any computerized auto-screen minimum requirements. Also, the auto-screen process generally applies pre-secondary, meaning if you've received supplemental apps from these schools, you've probably made it past any non-human safeguards the schools may have.

Which again, leads us back to possible deficiencies in your application, the most obvious ones being the low ugrad GPA, the MCAT that is sub par for almost all US-MD schools/just average for DO schools, etc.

Do not apply a third time without making some headway in your application. As a reapplicant, adcoms want to see marked improvements from the previous year. Take a holistic look at your app and see if anything at all is missing. Ask your LOR writers if what you think they are writing is what they really think of you. Pull out all the stops. If you don't choose to retake your MCAT, you'd better apply to a healthy amount of DO schools, or carrib if you're absolutely set on MD, because your numbers just aren't there right now. Anything is possible though.

 

[TriagePreMed]

If you do enough retakes, you will get into a DO school, easily. You need to work on your numbers instead of thinking reputation alone will get you in.

 

[notbobtrustme]

27 is borderline for MD and average for DO at most schools.

Honestly, as a science PhD, you shouldn't be scoring anything less than a 34.

 

[choppo23]

27 is borderline for MD and average for DO at most schools.

Honestly, as a science PhD, you shouldn't be scoring anything less than a 34.

It may seem like it would be easy to get a high score with a science background, and if it were just a Mol Bio/Genetics Exam, I'd have a terrific score I'm sure. However, it's been ~15 years since I've taken Physics/General Chem etc. My job takes up about 65 hours a week. I took vacation time to study, but didn't have time for an MCAT course. I tried to relearn everything from a Kaplan book. I wish I had the time to devote to take a course, and study like crazy, but I simply don't.

I guess my thoughts are if the 27 is average for a DO, and some people get in with those scores to both MD and DO, why not the guy with the PhD who studies the genetic basis of disease?

I guess my problem is I'm banking on a long shot...

 

[notbobtrustme]

It may seem like it would be easy to get a high score with a science background, and if it were just a Mol Bio/Genetics Exam, I'd have a terrific score I'm sure. However, it's been ~15 years since I've taken Physics/General Chem etc. My job takes up about 65 hours a week. I took vacation time to study, but didn't have time for an MCAT course. I tried to relearn everything from a Kaplan book. I wish I had the time to devote to take a course, and study like crazy, but I simply don't.

I guess my thoughts are if the 27 is average for a DO, and some people get in with those scores to both MD and DO, why not the guy with the PhD who studies the genetic basis of disease?

I guess my problem is I'm banking on a long shot...

I was in the same position as you. When I was studying for the MCAT, I used to get home from work around 7pm, eat dinner and then study until 3am for 2 months. I hadn't taken the pre-req courses for 7 years (graduated in 2004). However, adcoms don't care about all that. You need to get that score that puts a validator on the rest of your application.

You also have to realize that adcoms are going through thousands of apps per cycle. If there is any doubts in their minds, they will have no problem shelving your application. It's just the nature of the game.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Also, for better or worse, adcoms do want to see you crossing the Ts and dotting the Is with respect to volunteering, clinical experience, shadowing.

My committment to this medical school application process is pretty hardcore. I work ~50 hours a week, tutor kids 4 days a week in the evenings after work and volunteer Saturday/Sundays at a local clinic and the ER. IMO, that's a holistic application considering my decent uGPA, extensive research experience, strong MCAT and all around ECs. And I'm still prepping for Pharm school just in case this year doesn't pan out.

 

[235009]

1. A 27 MCAT from a candidate with a PhD in a hard science and who tutored biology is certainly the biggest red flag in your application and, despite your accomplishments, puts your intellectual abilities in question. Getting a PhD and doing research requires a different skillset than getting an MD and the MCAT is one way to tease out whether you possess these skills.
2. your undergrad GPA is below the 10th percentile for most/all MD schools you applied to and your grad GPA is underwhelming. it is widely accepted that it is quite easy to get good grades in grad school as the grading criteria is typically more subjective and far less stringent than undergrad. Having a grad GPA < 3.8 again calls into question your ability to perform academically.
3. no mention of shadowing, volunteering, clinical experience. adcoms are prob asking "does this guy actually want to be a doctor"?
4. as others have mentioned you really need to check your ego at the door ...not only in the application but for the next 4-7 years if you end up getting accepted.

you sound happy with your current career and unwilling to make any sacrifices to become a physician from the start. in addition you've given adcoms several reasons to question your ability to excel in an academic setting and there is no indication that you have the skills necessary to be successful in med school. Given your family obligations that are keeping you from applying broadly enough and your inability/unwillingness to make any sacrifices i'd suggest you reconsider med school and focus on bolstering your current career.

 

[thlaxer]

I guess my thoughts are if the 27 is average for a DO, and some people get in with those scores to both MD and DO, why not the guy with the PhD who studies the genetic basis of disease?

In addition to what skinMD said, DO schools also look at both GPA and MCAT. Your MCAT may be average for DO schools, but your GPA certainly isn't.

 

[JacobMcCandles]

Sorry, that's simply impossible, or is it that the medical community is afraid of somebody like me.

Maybe they read your personal statement and realize what an entitled prima donna you sound like.

But, I'll guarantee those ADCOMs (and Deans) will receive very pointed and blunt criticism from me, perhaps with lawsuits.

Yes, that's the spirit. Sue your way into medical school. Is the basis of your lawsuit going to be what an absolute travesty it is that someone of your caliber isn't allowed an automatic acceptance into medical school? The fact that you went 0/10 on interviews tell me something is wrong. Your undergrad GPA is ridiculously low and your MCAT doesn't correlate with your education. I'm guessing there's probably a red flag in a LOR or your personal statement as well.

 

[startoverat40]

just reading Kaplan review books isn't going to be enough. you should sign up for their actual course, and get access to all the Qbank, sectional, and full length tests. And also the AAMC full length tests. you should do all of the kaplan + AAMC full length tests, over 1000 practice questions for each section, and 10 to 20 practice essays.

i did 3000+ practice questions and got a 37. even with that score, a 3.3 undergrad GPA, two MS degrees, good ECs and very good LOR, I only got into my state MD school. So you should definately apply to at least 5 DO schools and 20 MD schools.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Unless you raise your MCAT, I would apply to 20 DO schools and at least 5 MD schools. After 2 cycles, you clearly need to change what you are doing.

 

[TriagePreMed]

I guess my thoughts are if the 27 is average for a DO, and some people get in with those scores to both MD and DO, why not the guy with the PhD who studies the genetic basis of disease?

Because maybe your undergrad GPA is also a 3.0? I have this feeling that your sense of entitlement for having a Ph.D was probably noticeable. The oldest student accepted to Osteopathic last year was 68, so don't start thinking it's all age.

 

[QofQuimica]

Wow! After re-reading my post late last night, I'm sure glad I didn't fill out my application drunk! Sorry to come across so poorly...it was fueled by frustration and alcohol.

Understood. And the fact that you've responded to the "tough love" you're receiving here in a rational way now that you're sober is the main reason why we're continuing to give you advice.

I didn't mean to say that the 22 year old crew were simply memorizers and not thinkers, as that is simply not true. What I meant to say was that I felt ADCOM's may overvalue a 22 year old with great GPA and MCAT (of whom I would guess would comprise the majority of the application pool) and not place enough emphasis on accomplishments post-graduation. There are other statements I'd like to clarify, but I simply don't have the time right now...

Well, but, the thing is, a lot of nontrads are also applying with a great GPA, a great MCAT, or both. And the nontrads you're seeing here who are getting in with lower GPAs are people who have great post bac GPAs. There is no free pass into med school when it comes to stats; everyone is expected to achieve a certain level of academic accomplishment.

My undergraduate GPA was a 3.0 (from a top 15 liberal arts school) and a 3.6 in graduate school. I was a varsity starting NCAA athlete. I took my MCATs after 10 years of taking the pre-reqs, and relearned just from a Kaplan book and got a 27O. I know the MCATs are not stellar, but many of the schools I applied to have average scores in the 27-30 range. I am 32 years old. Shadowed an MD and a DO. I'm really hoping I don't have a bad letter of recommendation. Although I don't suspect it, I can see my former mentor being bitter as he ran out of funding after I defended my thesis, at the same time I left for my next position. There is no way I could justify staying, unpaid, to put my own career on hold and in jeopardy, but I was probably his last hope.

I don't think it's feasible with my work and family schedule to find the time to study again, and re-take the MCATs. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

There are multiple objective problems with your app. I don't really have much to add to the input that others have given about the MCAT score, except to say that not doing well due to being out of school so long is a rationalization, not a reason. As far as the GPA goes, again, I have nothing to add to what others have already said. Concerning age, if you were 20 years older, your age might be an issue, but at 32, that's not the problem. In addition to the problems that have already been pointed out, you definitely applied too late; selected too few schools; and targeted a poor mix of schools, none of which worked in your favor as a candidate with subpar stats.

The question of whether there are any subjective app issues is tougher to ferret out, but it can be done. When you call some schools that rejected you, you should ask indirectly about your essays and LORs. I would frame the question along the lines of, "Would you recommend that I get some new LORs/write a new PS?" And again, when you call, you want to ask about the rejection in a way that shows you're looking to improve, not trying to make them defend their decision not to interview you. So say something along the lines of, "I was very disappointed to not receive an interview at your school. Would you please give me some advice on how I could strengthen my app to be a more competitive applicant?"

*****

You wanted to know what I thought about making the change to clinical medicine. The transition is harder than you can possibly imagine right now, but it's also more amazing, in an almost spiritual sense sometimes. I've written before about the difficulty of starting over, of going from being one of the adults to being a freshman again. Now that I have some residency time under my belt, I would add the caveat that the skills that make one successful as a scientist are not the skills that make one successful as a medical student, nor as a physician. I wasn't nearly as successful of a researcher as you appear to be, but I was a very successful teacher, and those skills have been far more transferable to what I did as a medical student and am now doing as a resident than my research skills have been.

Medical training has also been full of surprises. I like seeing patients much more than I expected, which helps to make the aspects of medicine that I dislike a lot more bearable. As a third year medical student, I was astonished to discover just how unscientific much of medical practice is, and this has not changed now that I'm a resident. It was also a bit of an eye-opener to realize how much I had to step up my game when I made the transition from med school to my high-power residency. As hard as med school seemed sometimes when I was going through it, as an intern, I can easily wax nostalgic about those "carefree" med school days. And I sometimes do.

If you want to know more about my app process, and to read my comprehensive advice for nontrad applicants, you can find that here. I wrote that post during my first semester of medical school, a full year before I became an adcom. But as I re-read that post now, I still agree with the Q of 2006 about what made me a successful applicant, and what it takes in general to be a successful applicant.

Hope this helps, and best of luck. 🙂

 

[DocGodfather]

I think your biggest mistake was applying to only ten schools. As a second year applicant, wouldn't you want to increase your chances at getting an interview by applying to more schools? Another thing is your MCAT and trying to get into allopathic schools. With a Ph.D., adcoms might be expecting a higher score. You also applied really really late.

1. Retake the MCAT
2. Retake some soience courses you received a C in
3. Recent EC's like volunteering?
4. Apply to at least 30 schools on June 1st.

I think it's also fair to say that no one is entitled to anything, and that you really have to earn things, especially medical school interviews. I'm an older premed as well, but you can't take anything away from the students that are handling business straight out of high school.

 

[choppo23]

Thanks to all of you for the constructive criticism. I'm going to let this all sink in and then develop an action plan moving forward.

With regard to the sense of entitlement, I know I came across arrogant and elitist in my original (drunk) post, and it will be hard to convince you of this, but I don't feel entitled that I should gain some sort of automatic admission.

I assumed I had average numbers MCAT wise/GPA-wise (if including my graduate GPA). However, my reasoning was that the PhD and my subsequent accomplishments in such a closely related field, would push me over the edge to gaining a few interviews this cycle. I have shadowed both a DO and an MD and have worked in community outreach programs back in undergrad.

I think the biggest piece of advice will come from calling these schools and asking for more constructive criticism on what I can do to improve, as they know the whole package I presented much better.

Again, many thanks.

 

[dbizzy]

Best of luck to you.

 

[ChemMed]

OP listen to Q she gives out some of the best advice regarding the PhD to physician route. I can tell you it is not easy. It is often frustrating because you have to ignore and often shut off a decades worth of previous training. The different skill set that a PhD has compared to a physician is of equal value but not the same. The adcoms screen for the people they believe will do well in the curriculum and make good physicians. I am sure that you are very capable of doing this, but your application must reflect that. Your PhD is nothing more then a nice EC here. This can be a bit rough to understand at first. You are going from a position that is considered their equal to one where you are on the bottom of the career ladder. Having an ego doesn't work well with medical school in general and I say this because even though I thought mine was minimal I have been greatly humbled by the process so far and will continue to be so. I would not take back the decision I made because even though I am tired and feel worn out I am happy. I will say that if you are happy with the career path you are on be careful about choosing this route. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor.

 

[LingoLaine]

Unfortunately your combination of undergrad GPA and MCAT score are simply not competitive. Unless you are willing and able to improve them both significantly, you will continue to see similar results.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Thanks to all of you for the constructive criticism. I'm going to let this all sink in and then develop an action plan moving forward.

With regard to the sense of entitlement, I know I came across arrogant and elitist in my original (drunk) post, and it will be hard to convince you of this, but I don't feel entitled that I should gain some sort of automatic admission.

I assumed I had average numbers MCAT wise/GPA-wise (if including my graduate GPA). However, my reasoning was that the PhD and my subsequent accomplishments in such a closely related field, would push me over the edge to gaining a few interviews this cycle. I have shadowed both a DO and an MD and have worked in community outreach programs back in undergrad.

I think the biggest piece of advice will come from calling these schools and asking for more constructive criticism on what I can do to improve, as they know the whole package I presented much better.

Again, many thanks.

I think you have a good heart and are going about this very well. I can definitely understand being drunk and pissed off. It makes one feel that one's accomplishments are not being valued.

I think you can definitely become a strong candidate for next cycle if you volunteer and do some post-bacc work. Retaking the MCAT is essential if you wish to attend an allopathic program. Being a non-trad too, I understand what it's like to have so many challenges to overcome, but we have no choice but to do it.

I would strongly recommend you take the TPR online prep course (I'm taking it. I'm in no way business affiliated to them in case you're wondering). The course has its positives and negatives, but what really is key is that the classes are recorded and you can view them at your convenience if you can't make that live session.

Best of luck.

 

[notbobtrustme]

i did 3000+ practice questions and got a 37. even with that score, a 3.3 undergrad GPA, two MS degrees, good ECs and very good LOR, I only got into my state MD school. So you should definately apply to at least 5 DO schools and 20 MD schools.

yikes, that's scary since I'm almost in that exact same position. 🙁 Did you apply late-ish?

 

[DrMidlife]

On the question of "why doesn't my impressive academic career carry more weight with med schools", I suggest Melvin Konner is a partial answer.

Konner was a field anthropologist and then went to med school, after which he wrote the book Becoming a Doctor in '88. The book is one long whine about how inefficient and impractical and silly med ed is, how much med ed could learn from studying the Bushmen in Africa, and how unintelligent doctors are.

From the perspective of medical educators, Konnor is a dick. (I think so too. I don't recommend the book except as anthro coverage of med school.)

I suggest that a good attitude with MD admissions, and with sanity during school and residency, is an understanding that hoop jumping is a key skill. Nobody cares what you think about the size, quality or frequency of the required hoops in med ed until you've been in academic medicine, publishing med ed research, for a decade or two. Accept the hoops, and jump like a border collie, and you'll have a much better time.

Best of luck to you.

 

[ghostman]

I just read the entire thread. It seems you had the incorrect impression of what makes a candidate competitive. Others have touched on what went wrong with your application cycle, but I think it's worth reiterating:

1. Below average MCATs for MD and average for DO. >Study properly until you hit above 30 (preferably above 32) before you take the MCATs again.
2. Low undergrad GPA. >Not much you can do except to retake the science classes you've done poorly in. You mentioned you took your science classes 10 years ago. Some schools require that pre-reqs be taken within a certain number of years for it to count. Make sure your pre-reqs count!
3. Possibly top-heavy/limited set of schools. >You only applied to 10 MD and 2 DO schools with those grades. Apply broadly, if possible.
4. Questionable LOR quality. >If your reference can't guarantee a stellar LOR, then you're risking it. Make sure you are certain the LORs are spotless.
5. Very late application. >Give yourself the best chances by applying once the cycle opens. It sounds like you applied at the last possible point.
6. Volunteer experience back in undergrad only. >If volunteering was 10 years ago, it doesn't count. If anything, it shows you had no commitment to the community at all.
7. Existing research career. >Yes, this can help because it shows your experience in the sciences. But it can hurt if you don't properly express why you want to change careers now. Are you trying to escape research? You must show your commitment to medicine and the role research plays within it.
8. Potentially poor personal statement. >Based soley on your rant. Lose any sense of entitlement.

Rather than lawyering up about your application (you will certainly lose), you should swallow that bitter pill and understand that you screwed up this application cycle. I think you have the potential to get into med school, but you have several items to work on before the next cycle.

 

[Ebola4Breakfast]

I’m a little late to the party I guess, but I was a similar applicant this interview season. I applied very broadly with a PhD in the biomedical sciences, a low MCAT, and a GPA that was only average. I did well, but it was not a slam dunk in the slightest. Most importantly, I did well because I heeded the advice of others in applying early, broadly, and to a good mix of schools.

I completed 20 primary applications (15 MD; 5 DO) and ended up with 5 acceptances (2 MD, 3 DO). It’s rough, dude. It cost a LOT of cash… but did not want to have to apply a second year. What everyone is saying is true. Your PhD doesn’t count a lot in the grand scheme of things...especially if you don’t sell it well (ex. explain why a PhD isn't sufficient or why you're not just collecting degrees). It’ll give you some cool things to talk about during interviews. It’ll give you maturity and great life experiences. But it won’t magically open doors that weren’t already cracked open to begin with. It most definitely doesn't compensate for multiple deficiencies. Stay humble, raise your MCAT and GPA, and you’ll be fine.

I kept a really detailed MDApps profile this year, including the stuff that went right and wrong for me. PM me if you want the link. I'd love to help someone from making the same mistakes as I did.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Just curious Ebola, what was your uGPA and MCAT?

 

[Ebola4Breakfast]

Just curious Ebola, what was your uGPA and MCAT?

PMed

 

[pre med 2014]

'Above average MCAT' is meaningless. I think the average MCAT score is 26.

This can't be right. I haven't started MCAT yet but this seems to good for an average if 30 is the golden number.

 

[MT Headed]

This can't be right. I haven't started MCAT yet but this seems to good for an average if 30 is the golden number.

The mean MCAT score is 24.9
The median MCAT score is 25

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/85332/data/combined08.pdf

 

[DrMidlife]

The mean MCAT score is 24.9
The median MCAT score is 25

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/85332/data/combined08.pdf

That link is from 2008 and shows all test administrations worldwide (n=80,000+). So it includes the fascinating, mysterious people who get a 4J. Newer versions of that chart are here: https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/mcat/admissionsadvisors/mcat_stats/

For people who get into a US MD school, average is 31+. I would argue that's the statistic that matters when talking about averages. A table showing MCAT scores for students who matriculate (meaning: got MD acceptances): https://www.aamc.org/download/161690/data/table17.pdf

AAMC data motherlode is here: https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/

DO matriculant average is 26+. Looks like AACOM is starting to be more transparent: http://www.aacom.org/data/applicantsmatriculants/Pages/default.aspx

Best of luck to you.