All Branch Topic (ABT) Corpsman Education

[Perrotfish]

So, I learned something moderately insane today. I had always been kind of amazed that none of our corpsmen seemed to be enrolled in college classes, but I always figured that it was just the natural tendency of relatively well paid 18 year olds not to look too far down the road. . However today I learned that our corpsman, who work a flat 40 hours in the hospital a week (plus 5-10 of training/PT), apparently have their shifts arranged to make absolutely sure that they don't have the opportunities to use that relatively light schedule to knock out college credits at any kind of a real school. Variously:

1) They're not allowed to take any college courses for the first 6 months they're in the command.

2) Their shift system is: 3 on, 3 off, then 2 on, 2 off, then repeat, so they don't have the same days off each week and can't sign up for classes.

3) They need uncertain LPO approval for taking college classes.

The result is that we have a hospital full of 18-20 year olds who mostly consider themselves to be premed/prenursing/PreEMT, who are working a relatively stable, normal 40 hours a week schedule, who have tons of time to study AT work (I would estimate at least half of the 40 hours they work) and none of them have taken an introductory level biology/anatomy/physiology class. A lot of them have knocked a few humanities credits in online universities, but the sciences are basically not happening.

My questions:

1) I get dozens of emails a day about quality improvement committees, innovations committies, and intradepartmental committees but nothing about the corpsmen. Is this an ancillary duty that a junior officer could get involved in? At the very least I feel like Corpsmen should have immediate and automatic approval for taking classes relevant to their career. If the LPO wants them to wait to take 17th century French lit that's fine, but Biology classes should be barrier free from the day they arrive at the command. Is there anything I could do to help facilitate that change?

2) Do all military corpsman in hospitals work this kind of insane shift system? Does anyone out there work a MWF vs TRSa shift system that would actually allow corpsmen to sign up for classes on college campuses? Does anyone have experience with this?

3) Can the military ever actually force someone to take college classes? When I try to teach the corpsmen something about the pathology they're seeing, I've definitely realized that I would get a LOT farther if they had taken the 8 credits of premedical/orenursing biology. Why isn't slogging through college biology just part of their first year in the medical corps?

4) What officer is responsible for the corpsmen? The nurses supervise them but I learned they don't evaluate them. I'm certain that I'm not in charge. Who exactly is in command? Enlisted personnel are supposed to have a chain of command that runs through senior enlisted to an officer. Is there really no officer in charge below the level of the department head?

Thoughts?

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[pgg]

This seems to be pretty command dependent. Lots of our Corpsmen are taking classes at the local community college. One of mine is enrolled in 4 right now. Our enlisted manage their own scheduling.

Who's responsible for them? In practical terms, the enlisted chain of command. For career enlisted, I think it's become a near necessity for those with Chief ambitions to get a degree done. They should have a career development board every 6 months, which is (should be) a fairly open discussion with their LPO and Chief. One topic that ought to be discussed is progress on a degree, work/study balance, and tuition assistance. The record of this CDB should be made available to their officer dept head or director for SA. I suppose in large departments the first officer in the chain would be a div O.

I'm not sure what's up with that 6-months-on-station requirement. I don't think we have that here. I guess I ought to find out.

The military can't force anyone to take college classes during off-duty time. Also, for officers, there's a 2-year service obligation that accompanies the acceptance of TA.


I tell my pre-med hopefuls that they need to get out of the military, go to school full time, and get a real degree to have a realistic shot at medical school. (Or win a rare spot in one of the .mil programs to send them off to school sponsored full time.) There's benefit to knocking out some GE requirements and lower division courses on TA while on active duty, and transferring into a 4y university later, but I think they're done a disservice when they're told that a cobbled-together patchwork of part-time CC classes is going to somehow congeal into a bachelor's degree that will get them into a US medical school. They need to hear that from us, because the LPOs and Chiefs behind the table at the career development boards aren't likely to have a solid grasp of what it takes to get into medical school.

 

[corpsman33]

So, I learned something moderately insane today. I had always been kind of amazed that none of our corpsmen seemed to be enrolled in college classes, but I always figured that it was just the natural tendency of relatively well paid 18 year olds not to look too far down the road. . However today I learned that our corpsman, who work a flat 40 hours in the hospital a week (plus 5-10 of training/PT), apparently have their shifts arranged to make absolutely sure that they don't have the opportunities to use that relatively light schedule to knock out college credits at any kind of a real school. Variously:

1) They're not allowed to take any college courses for the first 6 months they're in the command.

2) Their shift system is: 3 on, 3 off, then 2 on, 2 off, then repeat, so they don't have the same days off each week and can't sign up for classes.

3) They need uncertain LPO approval for taking college classes.

The result is that we have a hospital full of 18-20 year olds who mostly consider themselves to be premed/prenursing/PreEMT, who are working a relatively stable, normal 40 hours a week schedule, who have tons of time to study AT work (I would estimate at least half of the 40 hours they work) and none of them have taken an introductory level biology/anatomy/physiology class. A lot of them have knocked a few humanities credits in online universities, but the sciences are basically not happening.

My questions:

1) I get dozens of emails a day about quality improvement committees, innovations committies, and intradepartmental committees but nothing about the corpsmen. Is this an ancillary duty that a junior officer could get involved in? At the very least I feel like Corpsmen should have immediate and automatic approval for taking classes relevant to their career. If the LPO wants them to wait to take 17th century French lit that's fine, but Biology classes should be barrier free from the day they arrive at the command. Is there anything I could do to help facilitate that change?

2) Do all military corpsman in hospitals work this kind of insane shift system? Does anyone out there work a MWF vs TRSa shift system that would actually allow corpsmen to sign up for classes on college campuses? Does anyone have experience with this?

3) Can the military ever actually force someone to take college classes? When I try to teach the corpsmen something about the pathology they're seeing, I've definitely realized that I would get a LOT farther if they had taken the 8 credits of premedical/orenursing biology. Why isn't slogging through college biology just part of their first year in the medical corps?

4) What officer is responsible for the corpsmen? The nurses supervise them but I learned they don't evaluate them. I'm certain that I'm not in charge. Who exactly is in command? Enlisted personnel are supposed to have a chain of command that runs through senior enlisted to an officer. Is there really no officer in charge below the level of the department head?

Thoughts?

This is an issue I can speak with some authority on. pgg is absolutely correct regarding the Career Development Boards (CDBs) which are strictly adhered to every 6 months. The problem is that some LPOs and Chiefs either don't care or don't know the proper course of action to take to get into advanced education (i.e. medical school, or something other than becoming a nurse or HCA). Other LPOs do a great job, but you can lead a horse to water........

Regarding taking classes, some commands have a policy where they will not authorize TA for the first 6 months and other commands are more lax in this regard and will allow Corpsman to begin classes immediately (the rank of the member may also influence the decision i.e. an E1 checking onboard may have to wait whereas an E5 probably could begin classes immediately). Also, my prior command would not authorize classes unless you had passed the most recent enlisted advancement exam with at least a score of 50 (it is out of 80 max and 50 is about the 50 percentile to give you an idea). The reasoning they always told me was if you weren't able to get at least a score of 50 on your enlisted exam (which test knowledge of your current rate/specialty) then you should focus on learning your current job better before the Navy allows you to take additional classes. Sailors could or course, apply for FAFSA and take these classes on their own without the permission or TA from the Navy (much like they could if they were moonlighting without permission) although it is technically against the rules.

Regarding question number 2: Corpsman shifts differ considerably between commands and even between departments within the same hospital. However, I always found ways to take classes. On weeks I received unfavorable shifts for school I would trade with other Corpsman or I would even pay them to switch shifts with me so that I could attend school (whatever it takes). That being said online school is a very viable option that can work around any shift. I understand that it is ALWAYS preferable to do labs in the classroom, but nearly every DO school will accept online lab work (I think over 90% of them do) and about 20% of MD schools will also accept online lab work (just check the online MSAR for school requirements). In fact most of the University of California schools (such as UC San Diego) require zero lab work and as such would accept an online degree as long as the GPA was great and the MCAT was in the mid 30 range. If I had to choose between finishing my 5 year contract as a Corpsman with no degree or finishing it with an online degree I would certainly choose the later. There are some fairly decent online schools nowadays and there is a paradigm shift occurring in the thought that all education MUST occur in a "brick and mortar" setting. If there was ever a reason to take classes online, being unavailable to take classes in person due to service to one's country is that reason. Here is a decent med school post back program where you can take most of the pre-requisites online: http://www.une.edu/com/online/postbac/
I understand you will never get into Harvard with an approach like this, but if I had to choose between remaining a corpsman or taking online classes and becoming an osteopathic physician then I would choose the later as well (and for the record I took all my classes for my B.S. in a brick and mortar setting with the exception of 2 classes), and like I said many MD schools also will accept online classes.

3. The military never forces college on anybody.

4. The Corpsman chain of command technically goes up from ALPO to LPO to LCPO to SEL to Command Master Chief. The officer most directly in charge of the Corpsman is the division officer, who typically relays information to the Chief or LPO to accomplish what he/she needs. After the division officer it is the Department Head.

 

[corpsman33]

I tell my pre-med hopefuls that they need to get out of the military, go to school full time, and get a real degree to have a realistic shot at medical school. (Or win a rare spot in one of the .mil programs to send them off to school sponsored full time.) There's benefit to knocking out some GE requirements and lower division courses on TA while on active duty, and transferring into a 4y university later, but I think they're done a disservice when they're told that a cobbled-together patchwork of part-time CC classes is going to somehow congeal into a bachelor's degree that will get them into a US medical school. They need to hear that from us, because the LPOs and Chiefs behind the table at the career development boards aren't likely to have a solid grasp of what it takes to get into medical school.

I agree its better to get out and go to school unhindered, but if you have 5 years remaining on your contract (which is the standard initial Corpsman contract) its probably better to start college while active duty.

I always tried to hit up my Sailors hard when they first got to my command (shore command) and had 2-3 years there especially if they already had some college previously completed. With 2-3 years at a command a motivated Sailor can accomplish a lot if they attend school full time and hit the ground running. Once their PRD is approaching it is more of a lost cause though (with the exception of getting a few pre-reqs out of the way).

 

[HaYn04]

Hey guys! I'm a new member to this forum and a current med student with over 14 years of Navy Hospital Corpsman experience. I worked a couple of years in a Hospital and the rest of the time green side. I think pgg and corpsman33 hit upon some good valid points. I just wanted to add on a few more points. Fortunately, I was lucky enough to stay enlisted while I finished up my Bachelors and prerequisite classes. Coming from my own experience, the importance of the basic sciences aren't stressed enough only to the point of what's taught in the HM Manual, especially for the younger Corpsmen. Of course, the basic sciences become much more important when one transitions to becoming an IDC or for those that are hard chargers. When you look at the LPOs and CPOs that run the career development boards, they will most likely be far removed from patient care and more into a managerial role. Their focus is mainly that of filling bodies where it is needed and treating college education as an after thought. I agree as previously mentioned that many them in charge of these Corpsmen would not have the slightest clue as to how to mentor some of those that are seeking a professional career to no fault of their own and there are some that flat out don't care.

During my time in the hospital, I would gravitate around the physicians that enjoyed mentoring Corpsman, which was a rarity to find. However, thinking back to question 1 from perrotfish, why not establish some kind of educational committee focused on getting enlisted personnel into pre-professional programs- sort of a Pre-professional Health Interest Group. This can include those that are seeking to become a physician, nurse, PA, or any other health professional because you will probably get greater support from the command if you cast a wide net. It's very important to include as much of the chain of command as possible in order to get anything going at a functional capacity or at the very least the Command Career Counselor and Education Center. This can be something that can serve as an avenue for the enlisted (not only Corpsmen) to receive mentorship directly from professionals, a place to air out concerns, and maybe have a few lunch lectures. I'm sure there will be enough interest out there. Those that seek out this opportunity will be those that are hard chargers and will be appreciative for your efforts. There are lots of programs out there for pre-professionals within the military (such as STA-21, USUHS, EMDP2, MECP) and this interest group could help navigate them through to hopefully become competitive. Those that are separating can also be mentored but I think there is a select group of people that want to remain in the military service that would greatly benefit from this such as those with families. I was lucky enough to associate with those that have had the same goals and I have had many physicians that mentored me along the way which made a difference when I applied to medical school. Perrotfish, I applaud your efforts towards educating the Corpsmen.

 

[d2305]

I took night classes when I was enlisted. With the internet, it's much easier to get a degree. One can watch free lecture from UC Berkeley and MIT. You don't get credit, but you can use CLEP too.