Could I get into a European school

[Poisson]

Hello, my GPA is about 3.2-3.3 undergrad, 4.0 in grad level from the US. I am wondering if there are any schools in Europe, like London or Ireland that I may be able to be admitted to? My goal is to practice in the US, and currently think US DO may be more in my wheel house. Is an entrance examination required to European schools as a US applicant? What are your opinions on the prestige of these institutions and also potential ability to practice in the US and obtain a US residency? In my honest opinion, I feel many of these European schools are of the highest mark in excellence, and lots have affiliation with the highest US schools, as almost partner schools. With this in mind, it would only seem reasonable that these European schools would be better options than the caribbean. What does not make sense to me though, is how many folks say that oh, if you don't want to go to the caribbean, apply to Ireland, it is expensive, but you will get in. To me when I checked out that school, Ireland, as in Surgeons, seems like an institution of a lot of prestige, and I am assuming would have the technology and hospitals on this level. I don't feel like they would let anybody in there that could pay the bill. But lets just say this were true, and that it is not hard to get into, I feel like this school and some others in Europe that I have been given the impression are not too hard to get into for US applicants, is that the level of training is amazing there, and would be worth it.

What do you all think? Work on my MCAT really hard to get into a US school, whether that be DO or MD? What if I don't get in US school, would Europe be a better option? Are there some schools I may be a candidate at that are good schools? Is this better than the caribbean? Are some of the advertised US clinicals tough to get when in a European school? I checked out Jagiellonian University for instance, and it had some incredible US clinical rotations in California. I also want to know what is the difficulty of a European school by attrition? Do they dismiss big numbers from some of these schools? Which ones? In the US, attrition at DO and MD is very low, as it is a combination in my opinion of helping people to do well, PBL lectures, and screening of applicants. With the investment for medical education, really anywhere, it would not be a good thing to matriculate, and be in a school where 20% or more get the boot. Are there some big differences for examination style in London or Europe that really completely a 180 from the US? Is it more practical education? Is it more essay exam? Is it more multiple choice?

Thank you for your time.

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[Lbgem]

That is a really long post holy cow.

Okay. First off, if your goal is to practice in the US, then go DO. No question about that one. IMG, no matter what the school is, comes with its own baggage. You'll need to take the MCAT anyways, even if you're shooting for offshore, as UCD GEP requires it (unless you did the HPAT, but since you're not Irish, that's unlikely). DO has its own match + you can enter the allopathic. Much better chance statistically. And DO schools are great. Stats are low for allopathic US but if you are a state resident of one of the states that have lower stats then do well on the MCAT and you have a decent shot in (i.e. if you are not from Cali you aren't screwed). I am also assuming that cGPA you posted is similar to your science GPA.

Okay, now if you still really really want to go to an international school, Jagellonian university is one option. Quite a few North Americans go there, as well as the Irish schools. It's one of the best, if not the best university in Poland. Though I believe their classes aren't intermingled with the Polish, i.e. the English medicine program isn't open to the Polish. Keep in mind you won't be able to practice there unless you get fluent in Polish.

Ireland is another option. Reputation wise it's up there. I think RCSI better preps you to come back to the US than UCD. It's also tougher to get into. They're more lenient on stats than US schools, and yes, the international tuition basically helps your app. We pay A LOT more than the Irish. I wouldn't say just anyone can get it, but there's a lower bar here than the states or canada. I would also say harder to get into than a Caribbean school. At UCD we arrange away rotations on our own, so there's not really that 'connection' of being set up like the Caribbean schools. I can't comment on Jagellonian university on this one. But there is a 'connection' to US hospitals in the sense that some places favor Irish grads more than others. Is it an automatic in? No. But some of them have experience Irish grads and have favorable impressions.

The attrition rate is low here. We were told people only leave for personal reasons, not really academic ones.

So my advice to you, given what you want, MD > DO (unless you like the DO philosophy, at which point I'd reverse my order, but I didn't get this impression from your book) >>> Europe >> Caribbean.

 

[JohnSnow]

Irish schools are harder to get into than most DO schools. This is because you're competing with Canadians who have really good GPAs & MCATs but there just aren't seats for them in Canadian med schools.

You shouldn't plan on getting into Ireland without at least a 30 on your MCAT, some people will slide in with 28s or 29s but it's not common.

Of course Ireland has undergraduate entry 5 & 6 year programs but I don't know how good of a candidate you would be without a higher undergraduate GPA.

You can get into DO schools with a 24-27 MCAT. And as LBgem said you won't be labelled an IMG which limits options after graduation.

Poland isn't a bad option either. Their admissions numbers are more on par with DO schools. Of course you'll have to spend time learning medical Polish which will take away from your USMLE prep, but going to DO school you'll have to spend time learning OMM which takes away from USMLE prep. I believe roughly 25% of the students who start the program at Jagiellonian leave before graduation. Jag is really cheap, tuition is €12,000 per year (which is roughly $15,000 US). Their graduates do well matching in the US but don't expect anything more than a family medicine residency (although most IMGs will end up getting that anyway).

Difficulty of admissions:
US MD > Ireland > US DO = Poland = "big 4" Caribbean > non-big 4 Carib

Ireland is definitely harder to get into than the Caribbean.

 

[Poisson]

Lbgem

That is good to here about low attrition, and I guess I will need the MCAT exam no matter what (couldn't find this on the RCSI site for instance). Is entering medical school only for the fall semester like it is in the US? Are there some schools that accept with no interview? I saw on some profiles of applicants some good schools where they listed acceptance, but no interview (in Ireland I think), and others where they had acceptance and interview listed. Another student I saw on here had about a 3.3 in their first year of college in Cali then was accepted to RCSI with no MCAT, I'm guessing to the right after high school entry program? You guys both I think have the idea that RCSI or Ireland schools are tougher to get into than US DO, well with that in mind, does US DO have better residency opportunity in US? From what I gather, US DO can apply to osteo and allo residencies, and has about an 89% (some guy has some complicated sheet on here for residency match he calculated) or so chance between these two systems, where the reported is usually about 70%, and I'm not sure if that is just in the ACGME ones or not, to keep them at even comparison with the MD numbers. I personally think DO is also good because you can do an ACGME fellowship even after AOA residency, and there does not seem to be any resistance. Basically IMG he calculated as about 50% plus (sure you are getting lot of schools all over the map in the IMG calc, but the FMG one, for off shore was maybe 55%, also non-big 4 included). So, a guy on here I remember I think was from Johns Hopkins, he was mentioning that RCSI and schools like this are on a whole nother plane for residency match in US, and its basically like a sister school to other top US schools. Most grads would be happy as a GP / Family Practice doc from the caribbean, any numbers or guesses out there for prospects for Irish grads in US? Seeing the impressiveness of these schools, it would be hard to believe that Americans at Irish schools would have a tough time matching. Does the drinking stereotype of UK / Ireland apply to med students haha? I can't see there being much time for drinking in the curriculum. Saw one MBBS grad on here bragging about his drinking and studies balancing.

Thanks for the help!

 

[JohnSnow]

Lbgem

That is good to here about low attrition, and I guess I will need the MCAT exam no matter what (couldn't find this on the RCSI site for instance). Is entering medical school only for the fall semester like it is in the US? Are there some schools that accept with no interview? I saw on some profiles of applicants some good schools where they listed acceptance, but no interview (in Ireland I think), and others where they had acceptance and interview listed. Another student I saw on here had about a 3.3 in their first year of college in Cali then was accepted to RCSI with no MCAT, I'm guessing to the right after high school entry program? You guys both I think have the idea that RCSI or Ireland schools are tougher to get into than US DO, well with that in mind, does US DO have better residency opportunity in US? From what I gather, US DO can apply to osteo and allo residencies, and has about an 89% (some guy has some complicated sheet on here for residency match he calculated) or so chance between these two systems, where the reported is usually about 70%, and I'm not sure if that is just in the ACGME ones or not, to keep them at even comparison with the MD numbers. I personally think DO is also good because you can do an ACGME fellowship even after AOA residency, and there does not seem to be any resistance. Basically IMG he calculated as about 50% plus (sure you are getting lot of schools all over the map in the IMG calc, but the FMG one, for off shore was maybe 55%, also non-big 4 included). So, a guy on here I remember I think was from Johns Hopkins, he was mentioning that RCSI and schools like this are on a whole nother plane for residency match in US, and its basically like a sister school to other top US schools. Most grads would be happy as a GP / Family Practice doc from the caribbean, any numbers or guesses out there for prospects for Irish grads in US? Seeing the impressiveness of these schools, it would be hard to believe that Americans at Irish schools would have a tough time matching. Does the drinking stereotype of UK / Ireland apply to med students haha? I can't see there being much time for drinking in the curriculum. Saw one MBBS grad on here bragging about his drinking and studies balancing.

Thanks for the help!

Fish, you've got to start using paragraphs!

4 of the Irish schools offer 4-year graduate entry programs, RCSI, UCD, UCC, & UL. They all require either the MCAT or GAMSAT for admission. Only RCSI & UL conduct interviews.

It is possible to get into an Irish school, undergraduate entry, either a 5 or 6 year program without an MCAT. However, I just don't think you're a very good candidate with your undergraduate GPA. I don't mean to discourage you from applying, but I am just being realistic. The undergraduate entry programs tend to favor applicants with high GPAs (I would say a 3.5 GPA is a minimum and strongly favor students 3.7+).

The only Irish schools that conduct interviews are RCSI & UL. UL is only graduate entry. RCSI has both graduate entry, and undergraduate entry medicine and interviews for both. None of the other schools hold interviews.

Check out the Atlantic Bridge Program's website for more information on the Irish schools.

DO has far better residency options in the US for the sole purpose that you aren't classified as an IMG. 70% of DOs, that apply, match into MD residency programs. The rest match into DO residency programs. Going to DO school, passing your boards, and graduating you've got an excellent chance at getting a US residency (either MD or DO), probably a greater than 99% chance. You will also have more options when it comes to picking a specialty.

50% of IMGs, that apply, match into US residencies. That's what you would be classed as coming from Ireland, the Caribbean, etc. And most of them end up in primary care, since that is where the real need is in America. Primary care means Family Medicine, Internal Medicine, & Pediatrics. As an IMG you have an extremely poor chance of getting a highly competitive US residency so forget about radiology and dermatology. Every year a few people will fall through the cracks and get a moderately competitive residency (e.g. General Surgery) but that is the exception, not the rule.

If you look where Irish grads have reported matching it's mostly FM, IM, Peds, & Psych. IMG is IMG. Coming from Ireland you will be looked upon more favorably than someone from the Caribbean but you're still an IMG and that means you get picked after ALL US MD & US DO grads have been picked over.

Pecking order for residencies is:

US MD > US DO > IMG > FMG (non-US citizen IMG)

The problem with the DO degree is that it isn't as well-recognized globally as the MD or the Irish degree. But that isn't an issue if your goal is only to work in the US or UK (it's recognized in both places). DOs aren't recognized in Ireland & Australia & parts of Canada (although it is recognized in most provinces).

 

[Poisson]

Is London much better for medical school than Ireland? From what I read about somebody is that he apparently had pretty good stats, and did study abroad in London a lot, and kept getting rejected. Does London offer better residency placement for those folks that live in the UK over Ireland?

 

[JohnSnow]

Is London much better for medical school than Ireland? From what I read about somebody is that he apparently had pretty good stats, and did study abroad in London a lot, and kept getting rejected. Does London offer better residency placement for those folks that live in the UK over Ireland?

It doesn't matter if you go to the UK or Ireland you're still an IMG and are therefore ranked after all US MD & DO graduates when it comes to securing a residency. I would guess the UK & Ireland are viewed equally in the eyes of residency programs. If you went to Cambridge or Oxford you might do a little better just because those are two of the best schools in the world. But you're still an IMG, and don't get looked at until all US graduates have been looked at first.

Ireland is probably better just because you will have about 20 North Americans in your year and you will all be studying for the USMLE. So you will be able to have people to bounce questions off. In the UK most of their students are British and you will be hard pressed to find somebody else in your school preparing for the USMLE, let alone your year.

The UK medical schools are difficult for North Americans to get into because they care mostly about A-level performance in high school (which N Americans dont have AP or IB is viewed as equivalent most places), and not undergraduate GPA. Admissions officers don't really know how to interpret North American qualifications which is another obstacle to overcome. Ireland actively recruits N. Americans so they understand GPA, MCAT, extracurricular activities, etc. UK schools care about A-levels.

 

[Lbgem]

My undergrad gpa was 3.1, so having 3.2-3.3 I think is fine for Ireland. My science was 2.5 just fyi. I agree with most of JohnSnow's points (especially the using paragraphs one). Though I'm not sure I'd agree with Ireland being harder than DO, maybe equal.

Also, see the UCD matching rates thread if you want to see what specialties Ireland grads end up in.

Also, since you've done an undergrad degree, I'm assuming in a science or at least have had science courses, you won't want to do the 6 year program. I'm not sure what scares everyone about the MCAT, but study for that test for a couple of months to avoid doing 2 extra years - seems like a good deal to me.

JohnSnow gave you a great couple of posts, so I won't repeat what he said since I agree except for the points noted above.

 

[Poisson]

I sense that you 2 might have a pretty good sense of humor. Well I think for now this answers all my questions, probably more will come up in the future. When I take the MCAT, then I will go from there. My admissions consultant says if my MCAT is high, anything is possible, and this is the same words I got from an admissions board member I met with at my current university for the MD program.

Well I saw you mentioned a 3.1 GPA with a 2.5 science, I don't remember where you are from, if you mentioned that, but if you are from Canada I would assume that's a totally different ballgame. Canada from what I have seen, seems to take academics a bit more serious, or more like the better schools in the US.

Paragraphs is a really good thing to use haha, and I'm sure some experience in the UK may bring my literacy skills up a touch. It seems to me when I surf the different websites from Europe, I see little bits of old literature all over the place. Yeah we don't do this in the US, and also rarely use the word "write." Exams in the US are pretty much all multiple choice for science, with little writing in courses, and graded for content and minimally on composition.

 

[Poisson]

My undergrad gpa was 3.1, so having 3.2-3.3 I
Also, since you've done an undergrad degree, I'm assuming in a science or at least have had science courses, you won't want to do the 6 year program.

Yes I have completed a Bachelor of Science and Master of Science.

 

[Poisson]

That is a really long post holy cow.

Okay. First off, if your goal is to practice in the US, then go DO. No question about that one. IMG, no matter what the school is, comes with its own baggage. You'll need to take the MCAT anyways, even if you're shooting for offshore, as UCD GEP requires it (unless you did the HPAT, but since you're not Irish, that's unlikely). DO has its own match + you can enter the allopathic. Much better chance statistically. And DO schools are great. Stats are low for allopathic US but if you are a state resident of one of the states that have lower stats then do well on the MCAT and you have a decent shot in (i.e. if you are not from Cali you aren't screwed). I am also assuming that cGPA you posted is similar to your science GPA.

Okay, now if you still really really want to go to an international school, Jagellonian university is one option. Quite a few North Americans go there, as well as the Irish schools. It's one of the best, if not the best university in Poland. Though I believe their classes aren't intermingled with the Polish, i.e. the English medicine program isn't open to the Polish. Keep in mind you won't be able to practice there unless you get fluent in Polish.

Ireland is another option. Reputation wise it's up there. I think RCSI better preps you to come back to the US than UCD. It's also tougher to get into. They're more lenient on stats than US schools, and yes, the international tuition basically helps your app. We pay A LOT more than the Irish. I wouldn't say just anyone can get it, but there's a lower bar here than the states or canada. I would also say harder to get into than a Caribbean school. At UCD we arrange away rotations on our own, so there's not really that 'connection' of being set up like the Caribbean schools. I can't comment on Jagellonian university on this one. But there is a 'connection' to US hospitals in the sense that some places favor Irish grads more than others. Is it an automatic in? No. But some of them have experience Irish grads and have favorable impressions.

The attrition rate is low here. We were told people only leave for personal reasons, not really academic ones.

So my advice to you, given what you want, MD > DO (unless you like the DO philosophy, at which point I'd reverse my order, but I didn't get this impression from your book) >>> Europe >> Caribbean.

You were making a comment above about attrition rate being low, would you please comment on what you think the rankings of attrition are at Irish med schools? Like for instance Limerick I saw someone mentioned has a close to Canadian feel for education, which I would think may have low attrition. To me it seems from a getting in and finishing the degree standpoint, the Irish schools are a much safer bet than the caribbean. I say this as lets take Ross University in the caribbean, I have heard stories of stellar undergrad GPAs in biological sciences getting the boot at Ross to meet their quota of 50% failure. This model may creep into other schools down their gradually as new management takes over.

 

[Poisson]

My undergrad gpa was 3.1, so having 3.2-3.3 I think is fine for Ireland. My science was 2.5 just fyi. I agree with most of JohnSnow's points (especially the using paragraphs one). Though I'm not sure I'd agree with Ireland being harder than DO, maybe equal.

Also, see the UCD matching rates thread if you want to see what specialties Ireland grads end up in.

Also, since you've done an undergrad degree, I'm assuming in a science or at least have had science courses, you won't want to do the 6 year program. I'm not sure what scares everyone about the MCAT, but study for that test for a couple of months to avoid doing 2 extra years - seems like a good deal to me.

JohnSnow gave you a great couple of posts, so I won't repeat what he said since I agree except for the points noted above.

One thing I want to know is, are there any negatives to entering the 5 year program? Like, must a certain grade be obtained to continue on? I almost don't wanna wait an extra year, as my mcat would probably be too late for 2013 entry. The mcat does sound like the smart move though, avoids that extra year, opens opportunity for us apps, etc. I really feel like jumping right into med school, years are adding on haha. Would there be any hurt in applying just to see? Thanks.

 

[dr135]

One thing I want to know is, are there any negatives to entering the 5 year program? Like, must a certain grade be obtained to continue on? I almost don't wanna wait an extra year, as my mcat would probably be too late for 2013 entry. The mcat does sound like the smart move though, avoids that extra year, opens opportunity for us apps, etc. I really feel like jumping right into med school, years are adding on haha. Would there be any hurt in applying just to see? Thanks.

I got accepted into Rcsis 5 year program this year. To be eligible to accept my offer I had to maintain an 80% average, 3.7 at my school. However, I know of applicants from other schools who had to maintain an 85%.
Given that these were conditions placed upon those selected I would say they are not looking at anyone under these grades.
This is only for RCSI however, I'm not sure if it's the same for other schools.

 

[bidiboom]

I changed my mind and deleted the content of my post. Sorry for the inconvenience.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=913189