Countdown to AOA Match

[Neopolymath]

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I applied at 9 programs within a 90 minute radius of my home. I interviewed at and ranked 3. I would have loved to have interviewed at more, but I was severely limited by my program with regard to how many days I could have to go on interviews. I spent a total of 70 hours driving during the month of November, going to 2 conferences, 2 board exams, 3 interviews, and returning to Erie between each adventure for my regularly scheduled clinical days.

One of my programs put only 2 of their spots into AOA, with the other several reserved for ACGME. Another put 3 of 6 spots into AOA. The final one was all AOA, no ACGME. So, it turns out that I wasn't competing for one of 18 seats, but 1 of 7 total across the 3 programs.

One of the programs that did not offer me an interview reached out today. They didn't fill any of their seats in the Match. I'd already signed, but no regrets. I'm delighted with where I landed.

This is premature, but this is one of my biggest worries about school. Because DO schools seem to historically have students go on less interviews for the AOA match, I fear they won't understand the need to go on more as the merger happens and students in general have to go on more interviews as things get more cramped (md and do). It's probably irrational, but I don't want to be unable to go on 10-15+ interviews because some old clerkship dean went on 3 in 1975 and matched fine.

 

[Promethean]

No offense @Promethean because you had your reasons, but this is kind of a crucial detail to the story. Someone with your story and stats and a rank list of ten places would be shocking; with a rank list of two places, it's more just unfortunate bad luck. Not that I don't feel for you, and I'm really glad you scrambled successfully, but I don't want to strike fear into the hearts of 2019ers and make them think you suddenly need an 800 COMLEX and a 20-place rank list to match AOA FM or something.

You aren't wrong to want to clarify this.

I ranked 3, not 2. Those were the 3 where I got interviews, out of 9 that I applied to. I freely admit that a rank list of 3 does not leave a lot of room for error. A rank list of 10 would have been unobtainable for me in my particular circumstances, so those 3 were strategically chosen. There was one that was a slight reach, but where I had strong ties to folks at the program and two others that were considerably less competitive.

Also to add to this... is it possible that either of the programs ranked Promethean lower as a result of the very high board score? One of those rare instances where the programs might figure he/she wouldn't rank their program highly anyways b/c they were over-qualified compared to their typical applicants? Just a thought.

At the one program, they did very much think that. They were like, "But why are you really applying here?" "What surgical specialty were you actually aiming for and what red flag knocked you onto our doorstep?" When they read the entirety of my application, what kinds of volunteering I've done, how I've positioned myself throughout my nursing career... then they were like, Oh... you really actually are all about FM, then, aren't you?

I think that is a reason that I didn't get too many interview invitations. I think that a lot of people read it as someone shotgunning them as safety programs and didn't appreciate that I wasn't applying anywhere I didn't want to go. The bias that the best students aren't gunning for FM is a self-reinforcing prophecy.

 

[QueenJames]

It's just some people using AOA match as a gamble plan. eg:I can apply for IM in ACGME, then ophtho/derm in AOA. If I match ophtho/derm, great! But chances are I'm not so I'm OK with IM on the ACGME side too.

DAMN! as a 2020 student... that would have been super litty lol

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I applied at 9 programs within a 90 minute radius of my home. I interviewed at and ranked 3. I would have loved to have interviewed at more, but I was severely limited by my program with regard to how many days I could have to go on interviews. I spent a total of 70 hours driving during the month of November, going to 2 conferences, 2 board exams, 3 interviews, and returning to Erie between each adventure for my regularly scheduled clinical days.

One of my programs put only 2 of their spots into AOA, with the other several reserved for ACGME. Another put 3 of 6 spots into AOA. The final one was all AOA, no ACGME. So, it turns out that I wasn't competing for one of 18 seats, but 1 of 7 total across the 3 programs.

One of the programs that did not offer me an interview reached out today. They didn't fill any of their seats in the Match. I'd already signed, but no regrets. I'm delighted with where I landed.

Thank you for the clarification.

All this is behind you now. Also, no one is shaming you for what you did. Obviously, things were out of your control. Like @ortnakas, I wanted to point out for us participating in the NRMP match and for future applicants that going unmatched is highly unlikely for someone with a solid application and realistic expectations like yourself. It's the short rank list combined with significant decrease in the positions at the ranked programs led to this event.

 

[ortnakas]

@Promethean thanks for clarifying. Want to reiterate what @Ibn Alnafis MD said— I don’t think you did anything wrong. Your circumstances are pretty specific to you— you were a strong applicant with awful luck. I just wanted to prevent panic from anyone doing NRMP next month or matching next year.

 

[samac]

Sorry, meant to specify the unfilled positions. Point is for those who haven't matched, there's a plethora of spots to plug into. But when the single match comes in, those spots will go straight to IMG's/FMG's. and the struggle for scrambling will be much more real.

Why do you think unfilled positions would go to IMGs over DOs? I think we’ll see a decrease in IMGs getting spots, not DOs

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

Why do you think unfilled positions would go to IMGs over DOs? I think we’ll see a decrease in IMGs getting spots, not DOs

I could be wrong but I interpreted this as the spots that went unfilled won't be available to scramble into because IMGs will be entering the match for them, so whatever positions DOs don't get will go to IMGs in the match as opposed to scramble like now.

 

[MADD!!!]

Sorry for the delay, but yea that ^. IMG's will apply to DO residencies now.... and yea the programs will rank DO's higher a majority of the time. But right now if you don't match, these spots are vacant. When the merger happens, they'll be instantly filled by IMG's who were lower on the list and the number of scrambling positions will be dramatically decreased (basically left to those programs who just didn't rank IMG's or many ppl at all).

Exhibit A: Opportunities - AOA-Approved Internships and Residencies

"This is a dually accredited program (AOA and ACGME). Any positions not filled with osteopathic residents are filled with allopathic residents."

So basically this program is going through the AOA match first and is dually accredited. As of now they have 1 spot left over post AOA match. If this was post-merger, the spot would already be filled by an IMG. But right now, if a DO student is scrambling the position is still open UNTIL the NRMP match.

 

[QueenJames]

LOLZ

IMGs aren't getting jack.

I have buddies in the Caribbean that were told to delay their graduation and their STEP 2 by a year.

A WHOLE YEAR.

My GF's brother is graduating in a couple months and he still hasn't taken his STEP 2.

Let that sink in.

I'll be damned if any IMG gets a spot over us US students.

GTFOH.

IF anything... they'll get leftovers.

As they should.

 

[MADD!!!]

LOLZ

IMGs aren't getting jack.

I have buddies in the Caribbean that were told to delay their graduation and their STEP 2 by a year.

A WHOLE YEAR.

My GF's brother is graduating in a couple months and he still hasn't taken his STEP 2.

Let that sink in.

I'll be damned if any IMG gets a spot over us US students.

GTFOH.

IF anything... they'll get leftovers.

As they should.

LOL I'm talking ABOUT THE LEFTOVER POSITIONS.

 

[deleted610572]

LOL I'm talking ABOUT THE LEFTOVER POSITIONS.

I know you are tripping because you are 2020. The DOs that will suffer will be the bottom of the barrel applicants in the future. Right at 2020 there are still enough spots to cover MD/DO plus some. True IMGs will be able to scramble into formerly AOA positions but the merger will change the way people apply to residencies so you still won't see DOs not matching to AOA programs.... At least in the close future.

Right now, DOs can put all their eggs in the competitive specialty AOA match. If they fail to match then they do what they are actually competitive for in ACGME. If they still fail to match then they scramble/soap. Getting rid of the match will make DOs actually apply to their competitive range. So, if DOs apply competitively then they shouldn't worry too much about not matching. Id be more concerned about the average to below average applicants to be pushed to PC specialties than DOs not being able to practice at all.

 

[kabooya]

All else equal, is there a reason why a residency program would prefer an FMG over a DO? I ask because there's one IM program I'm thinking of in a desirable city, great fellowship match, good reputation, etc that is mostly FMGs. I'd imagine that there are plenty of American MD/DO students who would have ranked them highly, but the program is still mostly FMGs.

 

[deleted610572]

All else equal, is there a reason why a residency program would prefer an FMG over a DO? I ask because there's one IM program I'm thinking of in a desirable city, great fellowship match, good reputation, etc that is mostly FMGs. I'd imagine that there are plenty of American MD/DO students who would have ranked them highly, but the program is still mostly FMGs.

There are hospitals that are IMG indentured servitude. They can do whatever they want to their residents and the FMGs won't report them because this is their one ticket to America.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

But right now if you don't match, these spots are vacant. When the merger happens, they'll be instantly filled by IMG's

Eh, I’m not sure that is true. If it were then there wouldn’t be the plethora of FM/community IM spots that are leftover after the NRMP match. Those programs could have easily filled with IMGs but didn’t.

 

[kenjixshadow]

LOL I'm talking ABOUT THE LEFTOVER POSITIONS.

My school has students rotating through this FM residency program near by. It was historically filled with IMGs for years because the location is very undesirable, ghetto, and violent. However, there are more DOs being filled within the last 2 class due to rapid DO schools expansion. The PD gave us a lecture and I quoted, "We would love to have you guys there." Sure, the IMGs will fill the open spots in near future, but they will eventually get phrase out by us or by MD graduates. Stop tripping.

 

[QueenJames]

I know you are tripping because you are 2020. The DOs that will suffer will be the bottom of the barrel applicants in the future. Right at 2020 there are still enough spots to cover MD/DO plus some. True IMGs will be able to scramble into formerly AOA positions but the merger will change the way people apply to residencies so you still won't see DOs not matching to AOA programs.... At least in the close future.

Right now, DOs can put all their eggs in the competitive specialty AOA match. If they fail to match then they do what they are actually competitive for in ACGME. If they still fail to match then they scramble/soap. Getting rid of the match will make DOs actually apply to their competitive range. So, if DOs apply competitively then they shouldn't worry too much about not matching. Id be more concerned about the average to below average applicants to be pushed to PC specialties than DOs not being able to practice at all.

Facts.

If you are a bottom of the barrel DO... barely passing classes and barely get past boards and are gunning for ortho and surgery... you need a reality check and need to come to terms that all you MAY end up with is FM, IM, Peds, or Psych in nonacademic and community programs with no name (which is super great if you're not into the name thing) IF you apply well and IF you do enough auditions on top of that.

Totally agree with what you said about DOs applying to their competitive edge range.

Until then...

back to this FIRST AID THO.

YA FEEL MEEEE

 

[W19]

All else equal, is there a reason why a residency program would prefer an FMG over a DO? I ask because there's one IM program I'm thinking of in a desirable city, great fellowship match, good reputation, etc that is mostly FMGs. I'd imagine that there are plenty of American MD/DO students who would have ranked them highly, but the program is still mostly FMGs.

You are probably referring to Henry Ford in Detroit... I would not call Detroit a desirable city if you are referring to that program.

 

[Rekt]

I applied at 9 programs within a 90 minute radius of my home. I interviewed at and ranked 3. I would have loved to have interviewed at more, but I was severely limited by my program with regard to how many days I could have to go on interviews. I spent a total of 70 hours driving during the month of November, going to 2 conferences, 2 board exams, 3 interviews, and returning to Erie between each adventure for my regularly scheduled clinical days.

One of my programs put only 2 of their spots into AOA, with the other several reserved for ACGME. Another put 3 of 6 spots into AOA. The final one was all AOA, no ACGME. So, it turns out that I wasn't competing for one of 18 seats, but 1 of 7 total across the 3 programs.

One of the programs that did not offer me an interview reached out today. They didn't fill any of their seats in the Match. I'd already signed, but no regrets. I'm delighted with where I landed.

This is premature, but this is one of my biggest worries about school. Because DO schools seem to historically have students go on less interviews for the AOA match, I fear they won't understand the need to go on more as the merger happens and students in general have to go on more interviews as things get more cramped (md and do). It's probably irrational, but I don't want to be unable to go on 10-15+ interviews because some old clerkship dean went on 3 in 1975 and matched fine.

Why are you guys even telling your school in the first place? That's a terrible idea.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

At this rate of expansion, a two-tier match system needs to be created. One for US grads and one for nonUS grads. US grads should be given the priority to secure residency spots before allowing others to participate. Otherwise, in a handful of years the number of DO + MD grads will surpass the number of available spots leading to a financial crisis.

 

[W19]

At this rate of expansion, a two-tier match system needs to be created. One for US grads and one for nonUS grads. US grads should be given the priority to secure residency spots before allowing others to participate. Otherwise, in a handful of years the number of DO + MD grads will surpass the number of available spots leading to a financial crisis.

No other industrialized country has such an easy way for FMG to physician...

 

[Neopolymath]

Why are you guys even telling your school in the first place? That's a terrible idea.

I certainly wouldn't tell them on purpose when the time came. I would keep it between the attending and I, but things do come out apparently. You hear about it every single year.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

No other industrialized country has such an easy way for FMG to physician...

In the past, the US relied heavily on FMGs to fill the spots. In fact up until twenty or something years ago, the total number of MD grads was close to 10k and that of DOs was much less. FMGs, as well as IMGs particularly from the Caribbean and Mexico, filled the gap. Now that the national production of physicians has caught up, the need for FMGs is only minimal.

Now, allow me to say that there should always be a way to allow top of the crop FMGs to have a fair shot at practicing and contributing to the enrichment of healthcare. However, such applicants are only a tiny portion of the overall pool.

 

[raiderette]

The first step in reducing USIMG would be to stop granting US financial aid to Caribbean schools. Fewer of our citizens would go, and we could still have top FMGs benefiting our . medical system.

 

[Promethean]

Why are you guys even telling your school in the first place? That's a terrible idea.

It really wasn't optional for me. Not the life I'm living here.

There are some trade offs. This is one. I'm in a situation where not following policy to the letter is more likely to come back to bite me than not.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Why are you guys even telling your school in the first place? That's a terrible idea.

This is exactly what former grads have told us to do as well. My school has a '2 interviews a rotation limit,' but there is zero chance I will let that stop me from interviewing. I will find friends and arrange rotations during Nov, Dec, and maybe Jan that are chill. If a residency calls me, I will go as long as physically possible.

Its amazing how DO schools have so many policies that basically shaft their own students. If you want your students to match and your school, by extension, to look good, you need to let them interview anywhere and everywhere they can.

 

[MADD!!!]

Eh, I’m not sure that is true. If it were then there wouldn’t be the plethora of FM/community IM spots that are leftover after the NRMP match. Those programs could have easily filled with IMGs but didn’t.

FM had 67 open slots and IM had 38 unfilled spots post-match for last year. Compare that to the number of open slots in AOA alone, which has MUCH less applicants.

All else equal, is there a reason why a residency program would prefer an FMG over a DO? I ask because there's one IM program I'm thinking of in a desirable city, great fellowship match, good reputation, etc that is mostly FMGs. I'd imagine that there are plenty of American MD/DO students who would have ranked them highly, but the program is still mostly FMGs.

If the PD of that program is a FMG, they try to pull this off sometimes to get others like them in. There's a program in PA that says 100% IMG's. Their board scores are through the roof and it says you need like a 231 or 235+ just to apply. Why would any USMD or DO apply to a low-tier community program that needs that high of a board score?

These programs are scarce and don't pose much of an issue, but if they do I can see ACGME putting a foot in to regulate it. As it stands, for IM you've got like 7,500 slots for roughly 3,400 USMD's.

 

[QueenJames]

The first step in reducing USIMG would be to stop granting US financial aid to Caribbean schools. Fewer of our citizens would go, and we could still have top FMGs benefiting our . medical system.

It still won't stop all the rich kids with doctors for mommies and daddies that can pay the whole tab from the get go.

I'd say about the 700-800 kids that end up at those places, 200-300 are paying out of pocket. EASILY.

 

[SailorHg]

The AOA match is dying.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

Let it die. Kill it if you have to.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

FM had 67 open slots and IM had 38 unfilled spots post-match for last year. Compare that to the number of open slots in AOA alone, which has MUCH less applicants.

And that proves my point.... I don’t think you understand, in the NRMP match there are THOUSANDS more applicants than there are residency spots, yet there continue to be open spots post match in the uncompetitive fields. These programs could easily fill with random IMGs but they don’t. The AOA has so many open spots simply because there are more spots than applicants. I’m sure some of those spots in the AOA match will be filled by IMGs yet a lot of programs simply won’t take them, same as the many ACGME programs that don’t.. it’s not like all of a sudden there won’t be any spots available post match.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

It still won't stop all the rich kids with doctors for mommies and daddies that can pay the whole tab from the get go.

I'd say about the 700-800 kids that end up at those places, 200-300 are paying out of pocket. EASILY.

Yep Caribbean schools are for people with more dollars than sense.

 

[MADD!!!]

And that proves my point.... I don’t think you understand, in the NRMP match there are THOUSANDS more applicants than there are residency spots, yet there continue to be open spots post match in the uncompetitive fields. These programs could easily fill with random IMGs but they don’t. The AOA has so many open spots simply because there are more spots than applicants. I’m sure some of those spots in the AOA match will be filled by IMGs yet a lot of programs simply won’t take them, same as the many ACGME programs that don’t.. it’s not like all of a sudden there won’t be any spots available post match.

Well 1) Most do fill with IMG's (roughly 3,000/7,500 filled IM slots & roughly 1,000/3,300 FM) 2) Those who don't fill could be due to various reasons, not just intentionally leaving them empty b/c they don't want IMG's. 3) You are saying there are still open slots, but when you compare that to the # of unmatched DO students, there's SIGNIFICANTLY less spots available (It says that 879 students did not match this year in the AOA match.... and this is just including the figures for those who participated and not those who are waiting out until ACGME match). Now whether you want to argue why they didn't match, you could see all of the above.

Point is, this is 879 students who still need to match POST AOA match who did not match in the AOA (which should still be much easier to match into than ACGME match). If this situation plays out post-merger, where are all of these students going to scramble to? You really think all of these former AOA programs are just going to rank DO's only and let 600+ open spots to be remaining post match? I doubt it. I think they'll rank the DO's first, then rank the IMG's at the bottom, and let their spots fill. Going to be interesting how things play out....

Also from what I remember from previous match years, the DO match rate was always in the low to mid 80's, with the PLACEMENT rate being roughly 99%. Due mostly thanks to the TRI's and the excess open residency slots.

 

[Neopolymath]

Well 1) Most do fill with IMG's (roughly 3,000/7,500 filled IM slots & roughly 1,000/3,300 FM) 2) Those who don't fill could be due to various reasons, not just intentionally leaving them empty b/c they don't want IMG's. 3) You are saying there are still open slots, but when you compare that to the # of unmatched DO students, there's SIGNIFICANTLY less spots available (It says that 879 students did not match this year in the AOA match.... and this is just including the figures for those who participated and not those who are waiting out until ACGME match). Now whether you want to argue why they didn't match, you could see all of the above.

Point is, this is 879 students who still need to match POST AOA match who did not match in the AOA (which should still be much easier to match into than ACGME match). If this situation plays out post-merger, where are all of these students going to scramble to? You really think all of these former AOA programs are just going to rank DO's only and let 600+ open spots to be remaining post match? I doubt it. I think they'll rank the DO's first, then rank the IMG's at the bottom, and let their spots fill. Going to be interesting how things play out....

Also from what I remember from previous match years, the DO match rate was always in the low to mid 80's, with the PLACEMENT rate being roughly 99%. Due mostly thanks to the TRI's and the excess open residency slots.

I would wager that a lot of students in the 879 figure only applied to a few select programs in the AOA match and are also participating in the NRMP process as well. If I was applying today, I would certainly entertain applying to a couple really competitive programs in the AOA match and then a backup specialty in the later match or something like that. Several people I know are saying that it has been a common trend this year to apply to 3/4 programs in the AOA and then another 10 in the MD match.

 

[MADD!!!]

I would wager that a lot of students in the 879 figure only applied to a few select programs in the AOA match and are also participating in the NRMP process as well. If I was applying today, I would certainly entertain applying to a couple really competitive programs in the AOA match and then a backup specialty in the later match or something like that. Several people I know are saying that it has been a common trend this year to apply to 3/4 programs in the AOA and then another 10 in the MD match.

I hope that's the case... I just really don't know.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

and this is just including the figures for those who participated and not those who are waiting out until ACGME match

No you’re misreading the numbers. Many of these applicants applied through both matches and will still be participating in the NRMP match.

I think you’re overblowing this completely. There will still be spots for those who don’t match to scramble into. We don’t need a plethora of open spots sitting around simply for those who don’t match. The MDs have no such cushion, why should we?

 

[Cath Up]

There are hospitals that are IMG indentured servitude. They can do whatever they want to their residents and the FMGs won't report them because this is their one ticket to America.

That is so messed up.

 

[hallowmann]

Well 1) Most do fill with IMG's (roughly 3,000/7,500 filled IM slots & roughly 1,000/3,300 FM) 2) Those who don't fill could be due to various reasons, not just intentionally leaving them empty b/c they don't want IMG's. 3) You are saying there are still open slots, but when you compare that to the # of unmatched DO students, there's SIGNIFICANTLY less spots available (It says that 879 students did not match this year in the AOA match.... and this is just including the figures for those who participated and not those who are waiting out until ACGME match). Now whether you want to argue why they didn't match, you could see all of the above.

Point is, this is 879 students who still need to match POST AOA match who did not match in the AOA (which should still be much easier to match into than ACGME match). If this situation plays out post-merger, where are all of these students going to scramble to? You really think all of these former AOA programs are just going to rank DO's only and let 600+ open spots to be remaining post match? I doubt it. I think they'll rank the DO's first, then rank the IMG's at the bottom, and let their spots fill. Going to be interesting how things play out....

Also from what I remember from previous match years, the DO match rate was always in the low to mid 80's, with the PLACEMENT rate being roughly 99%. Due mostly thanks to the TRI's and the excess open residency slots.

A few things:

1) You just proved that "most" don't fill with IMGs, only some do, and that some is less than half. Of course places take IMGs, they will also take DOs. We're not suddenly going to have nowhere for DOs to go.

2) Yes there are a variety of reasons programs don't fill, but the fact that some don't at all is a point that what you're worried about isn't as clear of a concern.

3) You're not reading the numbers right. Many (I would wager even as much as half) of those that do not match in the AOA match are also applying ACGME and will go through the NRMP match (although some that are worried about their chances in the NRMP match, if they have few programs to rank for example, may end up scrambling AOA).

Trust me, the AOA spots left open are disproportionately more similar to those that are left open after the NRMP match (undesirable for a variety of reasons), so I would expect them to have disproportionately more spots left over after the merger as well. Plenty of DOs will find spots in the SOAP.

I will also say that you're assuming the way people apply will not be affected by the match, but it absolutely will be. Many people risk ranking few places or not applying broadly AOA, because of the well known fact that there are many unfilled programs. People won't (nor should) apply in the same manner when its only the NRMP match. That will undoubtedly increase the amount of DOs that match.

Also, with regards to the DO match rate, its actually 87-90%, and placement is 99%. So yes, I believe its ~10% that scramble AOA and a few percent that SOAP. I suspect the number that scramble will shrink, but its hard to say how much of a difference it'll make. I'm sure with a better app strategy the match percentage would be much better, but that's probably true even on the MD side.

 

[justclouds9000]

I know you are tripping because you are 2020. The DOs that will suffer will be the bottom of the barrel applicants in the future. Right at 2020 there are still enough spots to cover MD/DO plus some. True IMGs will be able to scramble into formerly AOA positions but the merger will change the way people apply to residencies so you still won't see DOs not matching to AOA programs.... At least in the close future.

Right now, DOs can put all their eggs in the competitive specialty AOA match. If they fail to match then they do what they are actually competitive for in ACGME. If they still fail to match then they scramble/soap. Getting rid of the match will make DOs actually apply to their competitive range. So, if DOs apply competitively then they shouldn't worry too much about not matching. Id be more concerned about the average to below average applicants to be pushed to PC specialties than DOs not being able to practice at all.

What would you consider a PC specialty? Would psych be one>

 

[deleted610572]

What would you consider a PC specialty? Would psych be one>

I was referring to FM and community IM. OB is also pc but it’s still semi competitive. I was referring to extremely weak applicants going into literally whatever they could find. Which the majority of unmatched spots are FM or community IM.

If this is going to happen, which I’m not sold it will, will be in the next 10-15 years and if schools keep proliferating. No one on the forum should have to deal with it.

 

[UTsksk]

What would you consider a PC specialty? Would psych be one>

Primary care specialties: FM, IM, peds, psych, obgyn. I got grilled by a doc because I didn't know there were 5 of them.

 

[MADD!!!]

Primary care specialties: FM, IM, peds, psych, obgyn. I got grilled by a doc because I didn't know there were 5 of them.

How is Psych a primary care field? You're specializing in mental health only.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Primary care specialties: FM, IM, peds, psych, obgyn. I got grilled by a doc because I didn't know there were 5 of them.

Lots of different defininitions of primary care. For instance, if you are a school using the claim that you produce primary care physicians to get funding then : OBGYN, Psych, Family, IM, Peds, ER, OMM, and Intern/transitional years all count as primary care. If you are really strict, you only count IM, FM, and Peds (cause OB are specialist since they see only one patient population in women). Or you can make up like the doc who grilled you did. Funny thing is my friend who is a FM doc went to their conference last year, and they were saying to not call yourself a 'primary care provider' but rather a family medicine specialist.

Primary care is a buzzword like mindlessness. Lots of people calling different things the same thing, while philosophizing there is a pattern in between. Actually now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense that DO's are involved with primary care more. If we can detect the subtlety of an SBS, surely we can define the pseudoscientific term of 'primary' medicine. Or at the very least, bill/make money off it claiming we have special knowledge.

 

[W19]

Primary care provider is a term NP use to blur the line between them and physicians...

 

[DNC127]

so can the class of 2020 apply to 5 year AOA residencies (ENT, ortho, surg ect) that are not initially accredited, and still be good since they can graduate residencies in 2020? Thats the vibe I got earlier in the thread. Just want to clarify because its been hard to get a strait answer (likely because its hard to tell if those programs will even try to take residents for one last year)

 

[deleted610572]

Primary care provider is a term NP use to blur the line between them and physicians...

Bingo. Physicians don’t nor shouldn’t call themselves a provider

 

[Neopolymath]

Lots of different defininitions of primary care. For instance, if you are a school using the claim that you produce primary care physicians to get funding then : OBGYN, Psych, Family, IM, Peds, ER, OMM, and Intern/transitional years all count as primary care. If you are really strict, you only count IM, FM, and Peds (cause OB are specialist since they see only one patient population in women). Or you can make up like the doc who grilled you did. Funny thing is my friend who is a FM doc went to their conference last year, and they were saying to not call yourself a 'primary care provider' but rather a family medicine specialist.

Primary care is a buzzword like mindlessness. Lots of people calling different things the same thing, while philosophizing there is a pattern in between. Actually now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense that DO's are involved with primary care more. If we can detect the subtlety of an SBS, surely we can define the pseudoscientific term of 'primary' medicine. Or at the very least, bill/make money off it claiming we have special knowledge.

Some major primary care scholarships even consider general surgery primary care lol.

 

[Neopolymath]

so can the class of 2020 apply to 5 year AOA residencies (ENT, ortho, surg ect) that are not initially accredited, and still be good since they can graduate residencies in 2020? Thats the vibe I got earlier in the thread. Just want to clarify because its been hard to get a strait answer (likely because its hard to tell if those programs will even try to take residents for one last year)

From what I understand, if you go to an AOA program that eventually doesn't gain accreditation there is still that "no resident left behind" type agreement that prevents you from being homeless. I don't know the mechanism, but supposedly you will get to finish your training somewhere.

 

[sab3156]

so can the class of 2020 apply to 5 year AOA residencies (ENT, ortho, surg ect) that are not initially accredited, and still be good since they can graduate residencies in 2020? Thats the vibe I got earlier in the thread. Just want to clarify because its been hard to get a strait answer (likely because its hard to tell if those programs will even try to take residents for one last year)

Yeah I doubt they would be willing to continue training residents at that point... Seems like they will probably just close up shop. It's probably best to ask individual programs what their plans are for what their timeline is for shutting down for good.

 

[justclouds9000]

It still won't stop all the rich kids with doctors for mommies and daddies that can pay the whole tab from the get go.

I'd say about the 700-800 kids that end up at those places, 200-300 are paying out of pocket. EASILY.

Nothing like some good old class warfare on SDN. Not sure it's relevant where their money comes from. It's too bad more people don't have 0 zero debt. Maybe college should be free or heavily subsidized like in other countries. But I don't see why it's their fault their parents were successful and able to gift them the tuition.

Bingo. Physicians don’t nor shouldn’t call themselves a provider

Yeah physicians' **** dont stink. Until the residency cap gets blown up and you're thrown to market forces like the rest of the professions.

 

[justclouds9000]

Ya, cause that is what it's about. You are quite the astute fellow. I can tell med school will go well for you. Or, you know, it's about identifying you and your job. Until then, try not to envy jim jones too much.

No idea what you're talking about , bub. why don't you Pm me your name and clinic / medical facility so I can avoid going there.

 

[QueenJames]

Nothing like some good old class warfare on SDN. Not sure it's relevant where their money comes from. It's too bad more people don't have 0 zero debt. Maybe college should be free or heavily subsidized like in other countries. But I don't see why it's their fault their parents were successful and able to gift them the tuition.


Yeah physicians' **** dont stink. Until the residency cap gets blown up and you're thrown to market forces like the rest of the professions.

Becuase it's those same kids that are going into medicine only for $$$ and STATUS because mommy and daddy ingrained it into their skulls that if little Taj or Jasmine or whomever doesn't become a doctor like their cousin Harpreet... they will be a failure.

So...

After mommy and daddy dropped $150K for their child to go to a prestigious university (that they worked hard for in high school to get into I'm sure.. no knock there), their angel was out partying and drinking and left their campus with a 2.9 and a BS Bio degree they couldn't do much with.

So what's next?

Well... mommy and daddy got the $ and they end up at Caribbean because they can go get that MD yo!

At this point, I really don't care. I will continue to crap on the Caribbean schools every chance I get because they take so many people's money and leave them with barely anything.

Not EVERYBODY wants to do psych, FM, or some transitional year.

I say give it 5-10 more years and those good ol' DO schools will saturate the market and screw over the IMGs and HOPEFULLY allow us to keep more US students in the areas.

All I hope is that the super smart FMGs from other countries that contribute to research and advancements are allowed in but idk if our Hot Cheetoh president will allow that.

Time will tell.

End of my rant.