COVID Pandemic Exposes the Ugly Secrets Hidden in America’s Healthcare System

[deleted480308]

Some of the interest on the loans is subsidised by the government while we are still in school or training.

Again, your issue with government run services seems to end right where you don’t need their services (or can afford going private).

If you are truly against subsidised anything, then your world view is to have a private police force, private firefighters, private libraries, private food banks and farms going out of business, and as we have seen many times in the past (and even more so currently) private whatever does not care about anything but the bottom line and will actively harm people to get a bigger profit.

I don't want the govt subsidizing loans at all, I don't want them anywhere near student loans

"Again, your issue with government run services seems to end right where you don’t need their services (or can afford going private)."....sir/ma'am, you really seem to not understand me at all

police is an actual legitimate function of govt, I am fine with private fire dept, private libraries, food banks should be private and farms should have to stand on their own like any business. And yeah, I expect companies to be greedy, and because they want money/customers they will compete for that business which traditionally has resulted in better service/products being developed. Unlike the govt, these private companies don't get to use men with guns to make me do what they want

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[FutureInternist]

I don't want the govt subsidizing loans at all, I don't want them anywhere near student loans

"Again, your issue with government run services seems to end right where you don’t need their services (or can afford going private)."....sir/ma'am, you really seem to not understand me at all

police is an actual legitimate function of govt, I am fine with private fire dept, private libraries, food banks should be private and farms should have to stand on their own like any business. And yeah, I expect companies to be greedy, and because they want money/customers they will compete for that business which traditionally has resulted in better service/products being developed. Unlike the govt, these private companies don't get to use men with guns to make me do what they want

There is no society that can survive with that limited amount of government.

I am unclear why you think helping people get food, safety, not burn, etc are not functions of government since they help make a better class of citizens, that will in turn be more productive.

Private companies may not kill you with guns (although labour leaders in Colombia may beg to differ), but they do kill with harmful chemicals, pollution, unsafe products etc...which would be way worse were it not for the government setting standards.

Companies have, and will continue to, collude with each other to price fix, make equally ****ty products, etc while also consolidating into an ever smaller number of actual companies (have you seen how many Coca Cola owns), and this will allow even further exploitation of the consumer and we will have continued limited choice in going anywhere else.

Government, while a monopoly for sure, at least has a chance of being changed and having some will of the people pressure on it to do good.

If the local Walmart and Kroger both agree to jack up prices and they are the only game in town, people dont really have an option to stop eating, do they?

So yes, if companies are maintaining a healthy competition, then it will lead to better outcomes for consumers but that is not what is happening.

I cannot fathom of someone thinking that firefighters should be private, because just like the gov’s men with guns, they can make you pay whatever while your family is burning inside... thats just mind boggling to me.

Your idea of limited government is waaaayyyyyyyy too limited for me to understand, meantime continue enjoying the safety standards in cars like seat belts, crash resistant bumpers, in planes like them not colliding into each other thanks to FAA, having relatively safe drinking water ‘cos the government limits how much pollution companies can put out, or having a doctor who actually knows what they’re doing, ‘cos they demonstrated some basic level of competence vs just anyone calling themselves a doctor.

I’m a dude

 

[Lawpy]

There is no society that can survive with that limited amount of government.

I am unclear why you think helping people get food, safety, not burn, etc are not functions of government since they help make a better class of citizens, that will in turn be more productive.

Private companies may not kill you with guns (although labour leaders in Colombia may beg to differ), but they do kill with harmful chemicals, pollution, unsafe products etc...which would be way worse were it not for the government setting standards.

Companies have, and will continue to, collude with each other to price fix, make equally ****ty products, etc while also consolidating into an ever smaller number of actual companies (have you seen how many Coca Cola owns), and this will allow even further exploitation of the consumer and we will have continued limited choice in going anywhere else.

Government, while a monopoly for sure, at least has a chance of being changed and having some will of the people pressure on it to do good.

If the local Walmart and Kroger both agree to jack up prices and they are the only game in town, people dont really have an option to stop eating, do they?

So yes, if companies are maintaining a healthy competition, then it will lead to better outcomes for consumers but that is not what is happening.

I cannot fathom of someone thinking that firefighters should be private, because just like the gov’s men with guns, they can make you pay whatever while your family is burning inside... thats just mind boggling to me.

Your idea of limited government is waaaayyyyyyyy too limited for me to understand, meantime continue enjoying the safety standards in cars like seat belts, crash resistant bumpers, in planes like them not colliding into each other thanks to FAA, having relatively safe drinking water ‘cos the government limits how much pollution companies can put out, or having a doctor who actually knows what they’re doing, ‘cos they demonstrated some basic level of competence vs just anyone calling themselves a doctor.

I’m a dude

Imo @sb247 libertarian stance solves a lot of problems with the bloated government and bureaucratic disaster that neoliberals have caused. I don't think this approach would work now in a pandemic because people across countries want governments to be as much authoritarian and expansive as possible.

But for sure once the pandemic resolves, a hard libertarian stance is an effective and necessary approach to make the government a lot smaller, more efficient and more deregulated. And also solve a lot of massive government contributed problems like massive debt and powerful monopolies.

 

[deleted480308]

There is no society that can survive with that limited amount of government.

I am unclear why you think helping people get food, safety, not burn, etc are not functions of government since they help make a better class of citizens, that will in turn be more productive.

Private companies may not kill you with guns (although labour leaders in Colombia may beg to differ), but they do kill with harmful chemicals, pollution, unsafe products etc...which would be way worse were it not for the government setting standards.

Companies have, and will continue to, collude with each other to price fix, make equally ****ty products, etc while also consolidating into an ever smaller number of actual companies (have you seen how many Coca Cola owns), and this will allow even further exploitation of the consumer and we will have continued limited choice in going anywhere else.

Government, while a monopoly for sure, at least has a chance of being changed and having some will of the people pressure on it to do good.

If the local Walmart and Kroger both agree to jack up prices and they are the only game in town, people dont really have an option to stop eating, do they?

So yes, if companies are maintaining a healthy competition, then it will lead to better outcomes for consumers but that is not what is happening.

I cannot fathom of someone thinking that firefighters should be private, because just like the gov’s men with guns, they can make you pay whatever while your family is burning inside... thats just mind boggling to me.

Your idea of limited government is waaaayyyyyyyy too limited for me to understand, meantime continue enjoying the safety standards in cars like seat belts, crash resistant bumpers, in planes like them not colliding into each other thanks to FAA, having relatively safe drinking water ‘cos the government limits how much pollution companies can put out, or having a doctor who actually knows what they’re doing, ‘cos they demonstrated some basic level of competence vs just anyone calling themselves a doctor.

I’m a dude

Using fire as an example, in your model the govt will always send someone to put your house fire out but they will literally send men with guns to ACTUALLY take your hourse from you if you don’t pay the bill.

private model: you didn’t want to pay so we don’t provide that service to you
public model: you didn’t want to pay so it doesn’t matter to you if we put out a housefure next, you don’t own the house anymore

 

[FutureInternist]

Using fire as an example, in your model the govt will always send someone to put your house fire out but they will literally send men with guns to ACTUALLY take your hourse from you if you don’t pay the bill.

private model: you didn’t want to pay so we don’t provide that service to you
public model: you didn’t want to pay so it doesn’t matter to you if we put out a housefure next, you don’t own the house anymore

My bill for the fire services will be lower and hence manageable since it is paid for by taxes.

You completely skipped over the issues with private companies and how they collude, exploit, injure and kill, or how you enjoy the safety provided by the same government who’s role you are wanting to reduce.

Like I said, your version of such a severely limited government is not sustainable since the companies we depend on will just go even more bonkers in pursuit of their bottom line leaving more dead in their wake.

 

[deleted480308]

My bill for the fire services will be lower and hence manageable since it is paid for by taxes.

You completely skipped over the issues with private companies and how they collude, exploit, injure and kill, or how you enjoy the safety provided by the same government who’s role you are wanting to reduce.

Like I said, your version of such a severely limited government is not sustainable since the companies we depend on will just go even more bonkers in pursuit of their bottom line leaving more dead in their wake.

I’m going to disagree with the snuck premise that govt is always cheaper, I don’t actually think that’s true

i’m also disagreeing with the notion that govt is the only reason my plumber and auto mechanic don’t try to kill me

 

[FutureInternist]

I’m going to disagree with the snuck premise that govt is always cheaper, I don’t actually think that’s true

i’m also disagreeing with the notion that govt is the only reason my plumber and auto mechanic don’t try to kill me

Then you need to review more information about how companies continue to exploit, pollute, cut corners, etc.

Like lack of children at work - Gov did that.
Like 40 hour work weeks and a 2 day weekend - Gov did that.
Like not having dangerous chemicals at work stored next to the fridge in the breakroom - Gov did that.
Like driving pretty much anywhere in US without paying tolls - Gov did that.
Like cars accidents having a much much lower fatality rate than 30 years ago - Gov did that.

For all of these, the companies hooted and hollered that the economy would collapse and they would go bankrupt, and while some of them surely did, the overall affect of less people dying or sick or a net positive.

Just as ONE example, GM circa 2004 knew about ignition switches in their cars and yet they didn’t tell anyone since it would affect their stock prices.
I wasnt till someone was killed and a lawyer subpoenaed the documents years later that everyone found out about it.
A company decided that your life was not worth the drop in stock prices.

The lone plumber, electrician etc aren’t actively trying to kill you but they have less of an incentive of doing a good job if there are no or minimal repercussions.
If the foundation of your house crumbles in 5 years because the plumber messed up, and they have long moved on to another state (for ex), what recourse will you have.
At least with the gov standards, there is some minimal expectation of competence and more of a recourse if things go awry.

 

[deleted480308]

Then you need to review more information about how companies continue to exploit, pollute, cut corners, etc.

Like lack of children at work - Gov did that.
Like 40 hour work weeks and a 2 day weekend - Gov did that.
Like not having dangerous chemicals at work stored next to the fridge in the breakroom - Gov did that.
Like driving pretty much anywhere in US without paying tolls - Gov did that.
Like cars accidents having a much much lower fatality rate than 30 years ago - Gov did that.

For all of these, the companies hooted and hollered that the economy would collapse and they would go bankrupt, and while some of them surely did, the overall affect of less people dying or sick or a net positive.

Just as ONE example, GM circa 2004 knew about ignition switches in their cars and yet they didn’t tell anyone since it would affect their stock prices.
I wasnt till someone was killed and a lawyer subpoenaed the documents years later that everyone found out about it.
A company decided that your life was not worth the drop in stock prices.

The lone plumber, electrician etc aren’t actively trying to kill you but they have less of an incentive of doing a good job if there are no or minimal repercussions.
If the foundation of your house crumbles in 5 years because the plumber messed up, and they have long moved on to another state (for ex), what recourse will you have.
At least with the gov standards, there is some minimal expectation of competence and more of a recourse if things go awry.

you are conflating a ton of things here, I'm not asking for no govt. We don't need a massive govt for child labor laws.

We don't need a 40hr work week or a 2 day weekend. I think govt messed up there, If your labor is only worth $10/hr to me, now I can't let you work more hours than 40 because your costs rise to $15 and your labor isn't worth 15. So if you want more money, now you can't just ask for an extra shift..

We don't need a massive govt for "don't put bleach in an orange juice container near the fridge" and a lot of work safety stuff has gotten out of hand (I worked in construction prior)

govt doesn't charge tolls for roads but they aren't at all free. In most jurisdictions anyone building has to pay impact fees meant to offset road coasts and gas sold has a surcharge added to it to act as a user fee for driving. You are still paying "tolls" you just don't see a toll booth so you think it's free. It's not

Punishing a company that knowningly lies about safety issues of their product is an appropriate role of govt, I have no problems with that. It's a strawman that you are building to claim I don't want any govt

 

[FutureInternist]

you are conflating a ton of things here, I'm not asking for no govt. We don't need a massive govt for child labor laws.

We don't need a 40hr work week or a 2 day weekend. I think govt messed up there, If your labor is only worth $10/hr to me, now I can't let you work more hours than 40 because your costs rise to $15 and your labor isn't worth 15. So if you want more money, now you can't just ask for an extra shift..

We don't need a massive govt for "don't put bleach in an orange juice container near the fridge" and a lot of work safety stuff has gotten out of hand (I worked in construction prior)

govt doesn't charge tolls for roads but they aren't at all free. In most jurisdictions anyone building has to pay impact fees meant to offset road coasts and gas sold has a surcharge added to it to act as a user fee for driving. You are still paying "tolls" you just don't see a toll booth so you think it's free. It's not

Punishing a company that knowningly lies about safety issues of their product is an appropriate role of govt, I have no problems with that. It's a strawman that you are building to claim I don't want any govt

I am thoroughly confused on your list of things that you feel government is OK (or useful for) and which you don’t.

If police is OK, why not firefighters... they both protect?
If punishing companies who knowingly hurt people, then why not have them meet certain standards in the first place?
If having OSHA is OK, then why not EPA etc since that is the same function, just on a much larger (and more important) scale?

40 hour work week and overtime pay, I disagree with you on that since if workers need protections in place (like the restaurant who said no to workers wearing masks eventhough Texas is still under the distancing guidelines)

I guess I see the above as the bare minimum of what a gov’s role is and my bare minimum is your too big.

 

[deleted480308]

I am thoroughly confused on your list of things that you feel government is OK (or useful for) and which you don’t.

If police is OK, why not firefighters... they both protect?
If punishing companies who knowingly hurt people, then why not have them meet certain standards in the first place?
If having OSHA is OK, then why not EPA etc since that is the same function, just on a much larger (and more important) scale?

40 hour work week and overtime pay, I disagree with you on that since if workers need protections in place (like the restaurant who said no to workers wearing masks eventhough Texas is still under the distancing guidelines)

I guess I see the above as the bare minimum of what a gov’s role is and my bare minimum is your too big.

difference between firefighters and police is that the purpose of police is to be the physical enforcement of rights. You have a right to not be stabbed or robbed. You don't actually have a natural right to your house not burning accidentally, fire is just a service like any other.

There is mission creep with meeting "certain standards", I'm not a fan of OSHA or the EPA (again, mission creep)

 

[FutureInternist]

difference between firefighters and police is that the purpose of police is to be the physical enforcement of rights. You have a right to not be stabbed or robbed. You don't actually have a natural right to your house not burning accidentally, fire is just a service like any other.

There is mission creep with meeting "certain standards", I'm not a fan of OSHA or the EPA (again, mission creep)

So not being stabbed is a right, but not being poisoned is not?

 

[deleted480308]

So not being stabbed is a right, but not being poisoned is not?

it seems you haven’t actually dealt much with the epa as a professional

 

[deleted927028]

So not being stabbed is a right, but not being poisoned is not?

You forgot to mention one more important thing. Not having house burned accidentally is also not a right.

 

[FutureInternist]

it seems you haven’t actually dealt much with the epa as a professional

I have not.
Doesn’t mean I still don’t believe that not being poisoned by private companies against whom my only recourse (due to their enormous resources) is the government.

If they suck, take steps to improve them.

Guess we should get rid of DMV as well and let anyone drive whatever vehicle they want, without actually showing that they can do so safely.

 

[deleted480308]

I have not.
Doesn’t mean I still don’t believe that not being poisoned by private companies against whom my only recourse (due to their enormous resources) is the government.

If they suck, take steps to improve them.

Guess we should get rid of DMV as well and let anyone drive whatever vehicle they want, without actually showing that they can do so safely.

It can be illegal to dump poison without having the EPA

If you consider what the dmv does as effective screening for driving skills, you have way too much faith in govt

 

[FutureInternist]

I have not.
Doesn’t mean I still don’t believe that not being poisoned by private companies against whom my only recourse (due to their enormous resources) is the government.

If they suck, take steps to improve them.

It can be illegal to dump poison without having the EPA

If you consider what the dmv does as effective screening for driving skills, you have way too much faith in govt

Ofcourse its illegal...... the point is that someone is needed to enforce that.

Again, it being effective is a separate convo, step 1 is if you even think it is needed.
Are you really OK with me taking an 18 wheeler out on the same roads as your family, having not demonstrated any competency in doing so?
How about someone calling themselves a doctor and “treating” pts?
Rules are going to get broken, thats human nature, and hence rule enforcers are needed.

 

[deleted480308]

Ofcourse its illegal...... the point is that someone is needed to enforce that.

Again, it being effective is a separate convo, step 1 is if you even think it is needed.
Are you really OK with me taking an 18 wheeler out on the same roads as your family, having not demonstrated any competency in doing so?
How about someone calling themselves a doctor and “treating” pts?
Rules are going to get broken, thats human nature, and hence rule enforcers are needed.

I'm fine with a "buyer beware" model of professional licensing.

 

[TwistedTea]

I have not.
Doesn’t mean I still don’t believe that not being poisoned by private companies against whom my only recourse (due to their enormous resources) is the government.

If they suck, take steps to improve them.

Guess we should get rid of DMV as well and let anyone drive whatever vehicle they want, without actually showing that they can do so safely.

Dang that’s probably the worst example I’ve seen. They basically let anyone drive a car and just collect fees

 

[FutureInternist]

I'm fine with a "buyer beware" model of professional licensing.

Sorry... that’s just idiotic.
There is no way that someone can research each professional they come into contact with.
Having graduated from a school and done residency, at least affords some minimal level of competence.

If you really are OK with random folks driving 18 wheelers on the same roads as you, then you value your life a whole lot less than most.

 

[FutureInternist]

Dang that’s probably the worst example I’ve seen. They basically let anyone drive a car and just collect fees

As mentioned before, the fact that they may do a piss poor job ( which depends on the state cos my exam Texas was a breeze), does not mean that the function they are providing (or trying to) is useless.

 

[FutureInternist]

If this giant rant is about public healthcare just no. I don’t think many citizens of the US deserve free healthcare and I don’t want to pay the taxes to support nor be forced as a physician to care for everyone for lower wages. If this makes me a bad person then so be it. I’ll go do something else for more $$$. Slippery slope of entitlement.

Yet you are OK with your taxes going to give huge breaks to corporations, churches etc?
The money is going to get spent... just spend it where it is needed rather than a millionaire’s 2nd yatch.

 

[deleted480308]

Sorry... that’s just idiotic.
There is no way that someone can research each professional they come into contact with.
Having graduated from a school and done residency, at least affords some minimal level of competence.

If you really are OK with random folks driving 18 wheelers on the same roads as you, then you value your life a whole lot less than most.

I value freedom more than most

 

[deleted480308]

Yet you are OK with your taxes going to give huge breaks to corporations, churches etc?
The money is going to get spent... just spend it where it is needed rather than a millionaire’s 2nd yatch.

False choice premise, an additional option is to stop taking so much of our money

 

[FutureInternist]

I value freedom more than most

Well like mentioned multiple times before, feel free to not call firefighters, EMTs, go to a public library, park, etc etc etc etc... and since you (hopefully) know how impossible your version of the world is, it is easy to advocate for it, while still reaping all the rewards.

From the moment you wake up, to when you go to sleep, you are protected (definitely not perfectly) by the standards that the government has forced upon companies.

Looking at what companies try to get away with despite the law, and then saying that w/o the regulations, things would be better, is beyond delusional.

Be happy that your contractor for your house, your car manufacturer, your drug manufacturer, your electrician, your plumber, your restaurant owner etc etc etc, all had to meet minimum standards and as a result you are less likely to be injured or die as a result.

At this point, its like arguing with a 3 year old who wants to eat 15 donuts... they just can’t seem to understand why its bad.

 

[FutureInternist]

socialists - government wastes our money bailing out rich people
Also socialists- we should tax people more and give government more money

Not people... but companies Yes
And distribute properly.

 

[deleted480308]

Well like mentioned multiple times before, feel free to not call firefighters, EMTs, go to a public library, park, etc etc etc etc... and since you (hopefully) know how impossible your version of the world is, it is easy to advocate for it, while still reaping all the rewards.

From the moment you wake up, to when you go to sleep, you are protected (definitely not perfectly) by the standards that the government has forced upon companies.

Looking at what companies try to get away with despite the law, and then saying that w/o the regulations, things would be better, is beyond delusional.

Be happy that your contractor for your house, your car manufacturer, your drug manufacturer, your electrician, your plumber, your restaurant owner etc etc etc, all had to meet minimum standards and as a result you are less likely to be injured or die as a result.

At this point, its like arguing with a 3 year old who wants to eat 15 donuts... they just can’t seem to understand why its bad.

I’d love to give up the use of those if I could give up the bill.

as for construction as an example of great govt it falls flat, I was a contractor. It wasn’t govt that made my subs do a good job. It was wanting to get paid and wanting a shot at future work

don’t try and tell me how many donuts to eat

 

[Mad Jack]

It's funny, everyone always talks about libertarianism as if it is something that any successful nation has ever been built on rather than the fever dream of dead white men

 

[deleted480308]

It's funny, everyone always talks about libertarianism as if it is something that any successful nation has ever been built on rather than the fever dream of dead white men

It worked pretty good for us for quite a long time

 

[Mad Jack]

It worked pretty good for us for quite a long time

Yeah except it didn't. The perceived libertarian days of America were built on wealth brought by slavery and cotton, without that America would have been a squalid hole in the wall.

 

[deleted480308]

Yeah except it didn't. The perceived libertarian days of America were built on wealth brought by slavery and cotton, without that America would have been a squalid hole in the wall.

I don’t buy that assessment, a huge tract if untapped resources largely geographically isolated from european conflict mixed with a hefty dose of capitalism did well

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I don’t buy that assessment, a huge tract if untapped resources largely geographically isolated from european conflict mixed with a hefty dose of capitalism did well

Plus the more productive part of the country was slave-free by 1800 or so

 

[FutureInternist]

Capitalism has fixed more problems than any other system out there. Not even disputable. Cronyism is bad but making the US socialist isn’t going to fix anything

As mentioned before there are MANY parts of the USA that are “socialist”.

Police, firefighters, public libraries, roads, schools etc etc etc.

Folks seem fine using those since there are usually no good alternatives, yet when they get to something where they have a “choice” (like healthcare), then all of a sudden, cries of evil socialism ring out.

 

[deleted480308]

As mentioned before there are MANY parts of the USA that are “socialist”.

Police, firefighters, public libraries, roads, schools etc etc etc.

Folks seem fine using those since there are usually no good alternatives, yet when they get to something where they have a “choice” (like healthcare), then all of a sudden, cries of evil socialism ring out.

you keep saying "folks are fine with those" when I've told you clearly a lot of those can go away altogether and explained how the others not financed via socialism or are literally the bare bones function of govt that you refuse to acknowledge are very different circumstances.

And yes, socialism is evil

 

[FutureInternist]

I’d love to give up the use of those if I could give up the bill.

as for construction as an example of great govt it falls flat, I was a contractor. It wasn’t govt that made my subs do a good job. It was wanting to get paid and wanting a shot at future work

don’t try and tell me how many donuts to eat

You have the upper hand on construction... I will give you that, but I like how you conveniently didn’t address any of the other daily things that can injure of kill you but don’t thanks to the government making the companies adhere to a certain standard.

And while its easy to say that you are happy to give up police etc, I guarantee if your life is ever in danger, you will not hesitate to call... and guess what, I will be happy that MY tax money saved YOUR life... cos thats what you do in a community/society.

Junior can have all the donuts he wants, while the adults who understand why its bad will continue to help educate and hopefully eradicate such childish thinking.

 

[deleted480308]

You have the upper hand on construction... I will give you that, but I like how you conveniently didn’t address any of the other daily things that can injure of kill you but don’t thanks to the government making the companies adhere to a certain standard.

And while its easy to say that you are happy to give up police etc, I guarantee if your life is ever in danger, you will not hesitate to call... and guess what, I will be happy that MY tax money saved YOUR life... cos thats what you do in a community/society.

Junior can have all the donuts he wants, while the adults who understand why its bad will continue to help educate and hopefully eradicate such childish thinking.

You are all over the place with the strawmen.

I reject the snuck premise that companies couldn't be held to safety standards by their customers without massive govt bureaucracies

I also already explained above that police are the most justified use of govt funds as protection of rights is the entire premise of our govt. I'm fine with police. And if I need them and call and they show up, no it won't be your taxes that sent them because I'm old and productive enough to have already paid for them myself.

Again, I'll buy the donut if I want the donut

 

[FutureInternist]

You are all over the place with the strawmen.

I reject the snuck premise that companies couldn't be held to safety standards by their customers without massive govt bureaucracies

I also already explained above that police are the most justified use of govt funds as protection of rights is the entire premise of our govt. I'm fine with police. And if I need them and call and they show up, no it won't be your taxes that sent them because I'm old and productive enough to have already paid for them myself.

Again, I'll buy the donut if I want the donut

It was not a “snuck premise”but rather a statement of fact.

You need to read up on all the ways companies have, and continue to, cut corners, pollute, endanger workers, endanger consumers etc etc.

It cannot be any clearer, yet if you refuse to be convinced, then I cannot present anything more... although I do know now how it feels to debate an anti-vaxxer (same clarity in the ridiculousness of their position, yet continuing to tout their misguided ideas)

Till the next time someone says lives are worth more than companies, and you disagree

 

[deleted480308]

Well then you need to read up on all the ways companies have, and continue to, cut corners, pollute, endanger workers, endanger consumers etc etc.

It cannot be any clearer, yet if you refuse to be convinced, then I cannot present anything more... although I do know now how it feels to debate an anti-vaxxer (same clarity in the ridiculousness of their position, yet continuing to tout their misguided ideas)

Till the next time someone says lives are worth more than companies, and you disagree

Again with the strawmen, vaccines work just fine

 

[FutureInternist]

Again with the strawmen, vaccines work just fine

FYI.. I slightly edited my comment after you commented.. didn’t change the thrust of it.

Glad you agree that vaccines work fine (didnt think that you didnt), but just as you are (hopefully) frustrated with antivax efforts in the world, such is my frustration with people who say that capitalism without any regard for human life, and everyone should “pay their own way”.

My main reason for posting on these is not to convince a lost cause like you, but to try to educate those who wander in and see only one side of the argument, since that may be enough to lead them down the dark path. (Ala Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro)

 

[deleted480308]

FYI.. I slightly edited my comment after you commented.. didn’t change the thrust of it.

Glad you agree that vaccines work fine (didnt think that you didnt), but just as you are (hopefully) frustrated with antivax efforts in the world, such is my frustration with people who say that capitalism without any regard for human life, and everyone should “pay their own way”.

My main reason for posting on these is not to convince a lost cause like you, but to try to educate those who wander in and see only one side of the argument, since that may be enough to lead them down the dark path. (Ala Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro)

I'm definitely saying everyone should pay their own way (or request voluntary charity). I'm fine with having that discussion for others to watch

 

[FutureInternist]

To those promoting a socialist healthcare system do you think that people unable to pay (excluding children) should get as good of healthcare as those who can? Or should it be generic only, midlevel ran, separate hospitals, very limited services. I excluded children to make it a consenting adult only discussion.

I personally do not feel those unable to pay should receive as broad of services as those able, again, the virtue signalers will say I’m a terrible person while pulling money out of other people’s pockets to fund their publicly stated moral obligations

We already have limits placed on what we can do, by insurance companies, so there are people who are getting different treatment for same issues.

I am more of a proponent for better PCP and basic level medicine that hopefully lowers number of people who let their DM get out of control cos they have to decide b/w food and meds.

I see it as an investment. Sure it helps people live longer, and better lives, but also less people on disability, less staying home and hence more economic growth.

 

[TwistedTea]

Is it really that common choosing between food and meds? I hear it all the time, I’m sure it exists but it seems to pan out more to the effect of non compliance and choosing between cigs and meds than food and meds. At least for the run of the mill stuff like HTN dm etc most of the meds are not expensive. But where do we draw the line between personal responsibilities and govt handouts? Funding generic only midlevel mostly basic care? Maybe..... But subsidizing obesity, lack of willpower, non compliance, and healthcare abuse due to patients not having skin the game? That will never have my vote.

the former I may say yes to not because I feel bad for ole Betty not being able to afford her 4 dollar meds, but to save the govt money and allow us to not pay more taxes when Betty gets admitted for high blood sugar cuz her pack of smokes was > her meds.

 

[readmypostsMD]

Is it really that common choosing between food and meds? I hear it all the time, I’m sure it exists but it seems to pan out more to the effect of non compliance and choosing between cigs and meds than food and meds. At least for the run of the mill stuff like HTN dm etc most of the meds are not expensive. But where do we draw the line between personal responsibilities and govt handouts? Funding generic only midlevel mostly basic care? Maybe..... But subsidizing obesity, lack of willpower, non compliance, and healthcare abuse due to patients not having skin the game? That will never have my vote.

the former I may say yes to not because I feel bad for ole Betty not being able to afford her 4 dollar meds, but to save the govt money and allow us to not pay more taxes when Betty gets admitted for high blood sugar cuz her pack of smokes was > her meds.

hit the nail on the head there... This type of **** basically forced me to become republican

 

[VincentAdultman]

Public libraries? Essentially just havens for crack ****** to have internet access and the occasional child to read a 30 year old book.

Sht your library sucks.

 

[Mad Jack]

Capitalism has fixed more problems than any other system out there. Not even disputable. Cronyism is bad but making the US socialist isn’t going to fix anything

You should really read about the East India Company to learn about what true unchecked capitalism does. They killed or caused the deaths of tens of millions of people for profit and functionally enslaved millions. Capitalism is far from some inherent good, it has become such through careful regulation to stop the likes of the East India Company and the Robber Barons of old

 

[Mad Jack]

To those promoting a socialist healthcare system do you think that people unable to pay (excluding children) should get as good of healthcare as those who can? Or should it be generic only, midlevel ran, separate hospitals, very limited services. I excluded children to make it a consenting adult only discussion.

I personally do not feel those unable to pay should receive as broad of services as those able, again, the virtue signalers will say I’m a terrible person while pulling money out of other people’s pockets to fund their publicly stated moral obligations

Go ask anyone from a country with nationalized healthcare if they would prefer it privatized. Universally they will say nah

 

[TwistedTea]

You should really read about the East India Company to learn about what true unchecked capitalism does. They killed or caused the deaths of tens of millions of people for profit and functionally enslaved millions. Capitalism is far from some inherent good, it has become such through careful regulation to stop the likes of the East India Company and the Robber Barons of old

Anyone who has read five minutes of any history knows the EIC was backed by British imperialism. You left that important part out. It was a private extension of government power. Not pure unregulated capitalism. I think most would agree you cannot let capitalism run free but the far left is too close to socialism for my moderate likings.

If one reads up on robber barrons many of them did as much if not more good than harm, even if they were acting in their own best interests. I know sociology classes tend to leave this out.

 

[TwistedTea]

Go ask anyone from a country with nationalized healthcare if they would prefer it privatized. Universally they will say nah

Must be why people with money from other countries come here for healthcare.

 

[deleted927028]

Must be why people with money from other countries come here for healthcare.

More Americans go abroad for treatment too.

 

[deleted480308]

Go ask anyone from a country with nationalized healthcare if they would prefer it privatized. Universally they will say nah

Except they don’t universally say that

 

[deleted927028]

Isn’t that the point of government to fund things people don’t want to spend money on. Many of the above stated are done as a very poor job. Public libraries? Essentially just havens for crack ****** to have internet access and the occasional child to read a 30 year old book. Out of date

“Poor job” exist with private entities too. But you turn blind eye to them because it suits your philosophy. If something is poor, fix it. If your house gets dirty, will you clean it or move to a different house?