COVID vaccine general thread

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Pausing the vaccine rollout due to an occurrence that is literally less than one in 1 million is mind boggling to me. Forgive me for indulging in a little bit of whataboutism but that is a rate lower than smoking or oral contraceptives. It is clearly an intense overreaction by almost any standard. What are the relative risks here? How many additional people are at risk for catching COVID and dying because of a literal less than 1 in a million chance of blood clotting? How certain are we that it was the vaccine that caused the clotting anyway?

I somewhat agree about it feeding into the anti-vaccine narrative but I come at it from the opposite perspective. I think this action gives them some illegitimate legitimacy.
It’s simple
CDC/FDA don’t get criticized for people dying from COVID
But they will if people die from side effects from the vaccine
They are just covering their asses (which I don’t blame them for doing)

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Pausing the vaccine rollout due to an occurrence that is literally less than one in 1 million is mind boggling to me. Forgive me for indulging in a little bit of whataboutism but that is a rate lower than smoking or oral contraceptives. It is clearly an intense overreaction by almost any standard. What are the relative risks here? How many additional people are at risk for catching COVID and dying because of a literal less than 1 in a million chance of blood clotting? How certain are we that it was the vaccine that caused the clotting anyway?

I somewhat agree about it feeding into the anti-vaccine narrative but I come at it from the opposite perspective. I think this action gives them some illegitimate legitimacy.

Who knows if the risk is confined to a sub population or not. If it is... the risk to that population could be much greater than 1:1000000 especially when adding the possibility of any unreported events.

my understanding is that this is a pause. Indeed pause. Collect some data have a discussion (believe the first is tomorrow) and decide how to proceed going forward. Maybe they make an adjustment in labeling - make it a dudes only vaccine or something who knows.

As we all said during the approval process.. let the FDA be the FDA and have confidence and project confidence to the public on the actions and decisions of the FDA.

Conveying public messaging that the FDA is making a mistake here just builds on underlying lack of public trust in the institution. Spin the positive - 2 other vaccines with wayyyy more shots given that have not generated this safety signal which is based on 6 cases in 7 million vaccines.
 
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Spin the positive
What a sheep! Learn to think for yourself! Groupthink!

No I am kidding. While I don’t agree with that philosophy, I do agree that not actively undermining public health efforts is good. ;)
 
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What a sheep! Learn to think for yourself! Groupthink!

No I am kidding. While I don’t agree with that philosophy, I do agree that not actively undermining public health efforts is good. ;)

As usual - you do say it the best. I suppose I just get frustrated that we can’t see and talk about what is really taking place. Instead we have to submit to the groupthink regardless of how subjective it is.

I certainly do not want to undermine public health measures - like I said before I vaccinated my family and will vaccinate my kids when the time comes. I just don’t like the blinders of the fact that this is all uncharted territory. Why I can’t say that without the anti vax card being pulled is shocking. It bugs me even more when people compare the mRNA vaccine to the yearly flushot. They are comparing apples and oranges
 
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Overheard today from a man, early 50s: "That vaccine is unnecessarily increasing my risk of a stroke. The government should be ashamed of their actions!"

Me: can't help but notice the pack of Salem's poking out of the top of his shirt pocket.
 
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Overheard today from a man, early 50s: "That vaccine is unnecessarily increasing my risk of a stroke. The government should be ashamed of their actions!"

Me: can't help but notice the pack of Salem's poking out of the top of his shirt pocket.

If they were Winstons I would have respect
 
What a sheep! Learn to think for yourself! Groupthink!

No I am kidding. While I don’t agree with that philosophy, I do agree that not actively undermining public health efforts is good. ;)

my perspective is... look the fda/cdc took this position and made this announcement. We can’t get them to go back in time to undo the decision, it’s been made.

We can go on public media channels and Twitter and whatever and criticize the FDA but really what will that achieve? It won’t undo the past. A decision was made and we must make the best of that.

If we want to be productive going forward let’s have a discussion on general process, safety signal thresholds and what should or shouldn’t happen on future events to make things even better not attack and critique to further erode trust in an institution people are already skeptical of
 
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Pausing the vaccine rollout due to an occurrence that is literally less than one in 1 million is mind boggling to me. Forgive me for indulging in a little bit of whataboutism but that is a rate lower than smoking or oral contraceptives. It is clearly an intense overreaction by almost any standard. What are the relative risks here? How many additional people are at risk for catching COVID and dying because of a literal less than 1 in a million chance of blood clotting? How certain are we that it was the vaccine that caused the clotting anyway?

I somewhat agree about it feeding into the anti-vaccine narrative but I come at it from the opposite perspective. I think this action gives them some illegitimate legitimacy.
Any quick maths on how many more people will die from not receiving this vaccine and passing away from complications of covid compared to a 1 in a million chance of blood clotting?
 
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Overheard today from a man, early 50s: "That vaccine is unnecessarily increasing my risk of a stroke. The government should be ashamed of their actions!"

Me: can't help but notice the pack of Salem's poking out of the top of his shirt pocket.
I've found this graphic to be helpful:

173702705_5445055675564397_7992880294436322283_n.png
 
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I've found this graphic to be helpful:

View attachment 334905

I find it a little misleading. The population that has received the J&J vaccine is not the same as those who get/can get pregnant or those who take OC’s. There may be a more at risk population within that 7 million that represents a much smaller risk population size who is just starting to get vaccine because they aren’t older or whatever.

It also presents ranges on the per 100,000 and not reported incidence and total population for the things like pregnancy and OCs
 
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I've found this graphic to be helpful:

View attachment 334905

This graphic is terribly misleading. Once again something like this plays to the short sighted nature of humans and the power of groupthink/popular opinion. With a graphic like this we are acting like everything has been entirely tabulated and it’s all said and done. It’s not.... We have a long way to go, both in the short and the long, before we could make a clear graphic which would honestly convey the true adverse effect profile associated with this new drug.
 
I find it a little misleading. The population that has received the J&J vaccine is not the same as those who get/can get pregnant or those who take OC’s. There may be a more at risk population within that 7 million that represents a much smaller risk population size who is just starting to get vaccine because they aren’t older or whatever.

It also presents ranges on the per 100,000 and not reported incidence and total population for the things like pregnancy and OCs
Its not misleading at all. If you're a man, pregnancy and OCPs don't apply to you.

You know what does though? The general population risk of a sinus thrombosis.

And sure, I'd be willing to bet that there is some type of risk factor here that makes this more likely than 1 in a million. That's what this pause is about: trying to figure stuff like that out.
 
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This graphic is terribly misleading. Once again something like this plays to the short sighted nature of humans and the power of groupthink/popular opinion. With a graphic like this we are acting like everything has been entirely tabulated and it’s all said and done. It’s not.... We have a long way to go, both in the short and the long, before we could make a clear graphic which would honestly convey the true adverse effect profile associated with this new drug.
Not really. This vaccine seems to be associated with a literal 1 in a million chance of this condition based on what we know right now.

It then shows what the rate of that exact same condition is in other circumstances.

I fail to see how that's misleading.
 
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Not really. This vaccine seems to be associated with a literal 1 in a million chance of this condition based on what we know right now.

It then shows what the rate of that exact same condition is in other circumstances.

I fail to see how that's misleading.

You said it yourself - what we know right now.

This graphic is a snide attempt to show that we are willing to accept a certain level of risk for other drugs and say - why the heck are we not willing to accept this risk... It’s just immature and we should be above this in emotional intelligence.
 
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It’s misleading to try to put risk into prospective? I am going to go ahead and disagree. I also do not see how it’s “immature”.

Every honest graph will only show “what we know right now” so that not much of a criticism either.
 
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It’s misleading to try to put risk into prospective? I am going to go ahead and disagree. I also do not see how it’s “immature”.

Every honest graph will only show “what we know right now” so that not much of a criticism either.

This whole situation has a long way to grow before we can do a look back and say - “this is the big picture”. It is immature in the respect that we have a long way to go before the big picture matures.

Also - I’m not trying to criticize. I’m trying to reveal the truth that we simply do not know what we are getting ourselves into and pretending that we do won’t change anything. And please don’t assume that I think the outcomes are going to be terribly bad, and also don’t assume that I think the outcomes are going to be wonderful - you could assume that I acknowledge that I do t freaking know what the o it comes are going to be once we inoculate an entire population with a new drug.

There is only one thing I know - whenever we tap a biological process for an intended clinical effect, we get two things, most of time time we get the clinical effect and we also get unintended effects. The unintended effects are short and long term effects. Many of these we just don’t know. But guess what - we are going to find out what these effects are wether we like it or not.

For me - I’m vaccinated (I probably got it before most here as my second dose was complete in January) and I’m vaccinating my kids because I want to go to Disney world . I suppose I would not want to survive a post apocalyptic world anyway.
 
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Something else - to put this into perspective: if we wanted to put a statin in the nations drinking water because we think that would be a great idea, I believe that we could reasonably assume many of the short and long term side effects that we can expect. Statins have gone through the regular FDA new drug process, they have been published/peer reviewed for many decades, and the data is extremely strong.

We can’t do this here with the covid vaccine - there was 1 (albeit well designed) clinical study, for each of the “brands”. However we are missing so much of what we, as pharmacists, have used to make evidence based recommendations since, as far as I can remember, when I became a pharmacist. In fact, strangely enough, this seems to have changed about 5 months ago as far as I can see.
 
You said it yourself - what we know right now.

This graphic is a snide attempt to show that we are willing to accept a certain level of risk for other drugs and say - why the heck are we not willing to accept this risk... It’s just immature and we should be above this in emotional intelligence.
In pretty much every other possible scenario I would 100% agree with you (minus maybe the snark). I'm a family doctor and we're generally a fairly conservative bunch when it comes to new treatments.

But, this is a (hopefully) once in a century pandemic that has killed a shocking number of people, lead to lengthy hospital stays in many more, and drastically altered our way of life.

Combining that with vaccines that appear to be quite safe. As of end of day yesterday this country has given just shy of 124 million doses. We've given enough that we're seeing the literal one in a million side effects.

Are long term side effects a potential problem? Absolutely. At best we have a small cohort that got vaccines around this time last year so right at the one year mark. But, historically speaking, long term problems from vaccination are pretty rare. We also have pretty good evidence for long term problems from getting COVID in the first place.
 
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In pretty much every other possible scenario I would 100% agree with you (minus maybe the snark). I'm a family doctor and we're generally a fairly conservative bunch when it comes to new treatments.

But, this is a (hopefully) once in a century pandemic that has killed a shocking number of people, lead to lengthy hospital stays in many more, and drastically altered our way of life.

Combining that with vaccines that appear to be quite safe. As of end of day yesterday this country has given just shy of 124 million doses. We've given enough that we're seeing the literal one in a million side effects.

Are long term side effects a potential problem? Absolutely. At best we have a small cohort that got vaccines around this time last year so right at the one year mark. But, historically speaking, long term problems from vaccination are pretty rare. We also have pretty good evidence for long term problems from getting COVID in the first place.

This I can get behind - so many that I interact with these days seem to think think if you get the flu shot you can expect the same exact outcomes. I just clearly see this as being completely disconnected from the reality of the situation.

I agree though - we better do something or it could get much worse. I do honestly think that this is our best bet, but we have a long way to go before we say that we are completely out of the woods in respect to both the vaccine and the virus.
 
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I may have an opportunity to work at a FEMA clinic; I signed up through the APhA and got an e-mail from them this morning.

It would be a 1-week period of service, with them paying for mileage/airfare, lodging, and a per diem.

This could be an interesting experience!
 
At this time with eligibility restrictions being removed in a lot of places, what places are that desperate to get needles in arms?

The south? Ukraine?
 
As usual - you do say it the best. I suppose I just get frustrated that we can’t see and talk about what is really taking place. Instead we have to submit to the groupthink regardless of how subjective it is.

I certainly do not want to undermine public health measures - like I said before I vaccinated my family and will vaccinate my kids when the time comes. I just don’t like the blinders of the fact that this is all uncharted territory. Why I can’t say that without the anti vax card being pulled is shocking. It bugs me even more when people compare the mRNA vaccine to the yearly flushot. They are comparing apples and oranges
Your implication this is uncharted territory is nonsense. Utter & complete nonsense. This mRNA technology is 20 years old. The vaccines are exceedingly safe. This shows the system works. Since the original studies only tested 40,000 people this went unpracticed. It was however picked up by the safety mechanisms we have built into the system.

The pause was for 2 reasons:
1) To dig deeper into the data to see if there are any confounding factors, to see if there are more cases and to compare with A-z the other adenovirus vectored vaccine.
2) To get the word out to Er docs and hospitalists to be aware they cannot use the standard treatment of Heparin or Enoxaparin for VITT Nobody immediately looks for thrombocytopenia when presented with venous thrombosis.

I assume the J&J will be back with either a warning or with age and gender restriction.

I repeat this is not a cause for alarm. It is a sign the system works as it should.
 
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Your implication this is uncharted territory is nonsense. Utter & complete nonsense. This mRNA technology is 20 years old. The vaccines are exceedingly safe. This shows the system works. Since the original studies only tested 40,000 people this went unpracticed. It was however picked up by the safety mechanisms we have built into the system.

The pause was for 2 reasons:
1) To dig deeper into the data to see if there are any confounding factors, to see if there are more cases and to compare with A-z the other adenovirus vectored vaccine.
2) To get the word out to Er docs and hospitalists to be aware they cannot use the standard treatment of Heparin or Enoxaparin for VITT Nobody immediately looks for thrombocytopenia when presented with venous thrombosis.

I assume the J&J will be back with either a warning or with age and gender restriction.

I repeat this is not a cause for alarm. It is a sign the system works as it should.

Okay - thanks for sharing your opinion.

And your right, the investigational new drug has been used on livestock for some time (especially on horses for West Nile virus).

It has also been studied in certain animals (mostly rats) to study the immune effect of corona viruses. The outcomes were mixed.
 
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These clinics are in Tennessee, but the message I got today indicated that they wouldn't tell me where it was until I committed to a date. I don't consider that enough information to safely proceed.
 
Okay - thanks for sharing your opinion.

And your right, the investigational new drug has been used on livestock for some time (especially on horses for West Nile virus).

It has also been studied in certain animals (mostly rats) to study the immune effect of corona viruses. The outcomes were mixed.
So no, this is not opinion, it is fact:

History of mRMA vaccines have been in development for over 20 years. mRNA vaccines have been developed for flu, Zika, rabies, and cytomegalovirus. They were not brought to market due to effectiveness not side effects. The technology is not new.

The CDC said:
CDC will convene a meeting of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) on Wednesday to further review these cases and assess their potential significance. FDA will review that analysis as it also investigates these cases. Until that process is complete, we are recommending a pause in the use of this vaccine out of an abundance of caution. This is important, in part, to ensure that the health care provider community is aware of the potential for these adverse events and can plan for proper recognition and management due to the unique treatment required with this type of blood clot.
Joint CDC and FDA Statement on Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 Vaccine

Everything I said was factual.
 
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Pausing the vaccine rollout due to an occurrence that is literally less than one in 1 million is mind boggling to me. Forgive me for indulging in a little bit of whataboutism but that is a rate lower than smoking or oral contraceptives. It is clearly an intense overreaction by almost any standard. What are the relative risks here? How many additional people are at risk for catching COVID and dying because of a literal less than 1 in a million chance of blood clotting? How certain are we that it was the vaccine that caused the clotting anyway?

I somewhat agree about it feeding into the anti-vaccine narrative but I come at it from the opposite perspective. I think this action gives them some illegitimate legitimacy.
I'm pretty sure that a lot of the hoo-haw came from the fact that the blood clots affected women. Had this been observed, and not addressed, radical feminists would be screaming "You did this to women!" from the rooftops.
 
I may have an opportunity to work at a FEMA clinic; I signed up through the APhA and got an e-mail from them this morning.

It would be a 1-week period of service, with them paying for mileage/airfare, lodging, and a per diem.

This could be an interesting experience!
After finding out that I would not be told where I would be going until after I signed up for a time slot, I have decided not to pursue this.
 
Looks like demand in the U.S. might start to taper off soon (until new and improved variants or COVID 21)

So what's gonna happen to the publically perceived "2nd tier" vaccines like AZN's?


A series of scares in the early 2000s, including the 2001 anthrax attacks on members of Congress and the press and the 2004 worldwide outbreak of H5N1 “bird flu,” prompted Congress to pass the Public Readiness and Emergency Preparedness (PREP) Act. The 2005 law gives manufacturers of vaccines and therapeutics developed in response to public health emergencies sweeping protection from liability, and makes the U.S. government a guarantor of that protection.

The law provides an “almost Star Trek–level ‘shields up,’” said Nicholas Pace, a senior social scientist at the RAND Corporation. But “the moment that vial walks across the border, PREP has no effect. The cross-border liability problem is a huge one.”


According to a briefing document prepared during the Trump administration for the National Security Council, a portion of which was obtained by Vanity Fair: “This type of liability protection is unique in the world; most other countries provide no protection at all and only in some cases provide some level of legal protection.”

In the wake of such woebegone public health campaigns as the U.S. government’s 1976 mass vaccination against swine flu, which led to numerous cases of paralysis from Guillain-Barré syndrome, liability exposure has become the “third rail for these companies,” a senior Biden official acknowledged. “They are not going to do business unless they’re protected.” Paul Mango, a Trump administration Operation Warp Speed official, put it another way: “If I am a vaccine manufacturing CEO, I did not sign up to do this so that I would be liable to Ethiopia.”

Operation Warp Speed seemed to bend over backward to avoid that possibility, agreeing to a sweeping restriction that prevents the United States from sharing its bounty and thereby reaping any diplomatic rewards.

Experts say the Trump administration—which, after all, was in the position of doling out billions of dollars in development funds—was not required by any law to roll over for the vaccine makers. Sam Halabi, a scholar at the O’Neill Institute for National and Global Health Law at Georgetown University, who is currently advising several international organizations involved in the global vaccination effort, said the U.S. had been in “a very good position to call the manufacturers’ bluff: ‘if you want the billions in procurement dollars then we want the flexibility to send’” doses overseas. But U.S. negotiators likely “didn’t have any interest in sharing outside of U.S. territory.”

By contrast, during the H1N1 flu outbreak in 2009, a U.S. donation campaign was planned early and geographic restrictions were not imposed, said a former Obama administration official who had helped plan H1N1 vaccine donations. Given that history, “I am really surprised the U.S. would agree to constrain its options,” said the official, after being read the contract language by Vanity Fair.

Doubt this was well thought out with the whole "virus not respecting borders that remain porous anyway" thing
 
More food for the unintended immunogenicity thought

 


In case you were wondering what the Greek letter mappings look like
 
With the new booster shot for the immunocompromised on its way, I figured I’ll bump this thread

anybody know how they are defining “immunocompromised”? Unless they make this clear, I’m afraid everybody and their mother is going to be coming in to try to get a booster
 
Already having people trying to come in for boosters at my store, though no one has claimed to be immunocompromised yet
 
If they admit to having mRNA x2 or JNJ x1 (and came to your store to get shot) obviously you can screen them out.

Is anyone actually going to spend any time policing this (checking IIS or central search)? A smart person would just go to another chain, another state (if traveling a lot), fake identity and/or claim not having insurance (this would work better for people w/o SSN)
 
With the new booster shot for the immunocompromised on its way, I figured I’ll bump this thread

anybody know how they are defining “immunocompromised”? Unless they make this clear, I’m afraid everybody and their mother is going to be coming in to try to get a booster
This is what I read:
CDC's definition includes people undergoing treatment for solid tumors or blood cancers; organ transplant patients, including those who have gotten a stem cell transplant within the last two years; people with advanced or untreated HIV; people being treated with high-doses steroids and those taking other immunosuppressive drugs; and those with chronic medical conditions that are associated with weakened immune response, such as chronic kidney disease.

Still pretty vague. I booked myself an appointment for Wednesday. Going to call on Monday to make sure they’ll give me a shot. It’s not technically a “booster” but a third dose in the series for those who don’t get full immunity from 2 doses.
 
FDA approved both Pfizer and Moderna second boosters for anybody 50+, 4 months after their first booster.

CDC, however, is only offering a permissive recommendation, meaning they will not officially recommend it

It will be interesting to see how the general public will react to this
 
It will be interesting to see how the general public will react to this
1/3 will run out and get the booster
1/3 will complain it is all about 5g, qanon mind control and beg you to watch some redacted youtube video
1/3 will sit down and make a conscious decision after taking to their healthcare provider and weighng the risks vs benefits.
 
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1/3 will run out and get the booster
1/3 will complain it is all about 5g, qanon mind control and beg you to watch some redacted youtube video
1/3 will sit down and make a conscious decision after taking to their healthcare provider and weighng the risks vs benefits.

I completely agree. I got boostered in November, after having got original vaccine in January. I will get the 4th shot at some point, but am not making it a high priority. Early talk with my co-workers is the same, none of us feel any need to get the booster exactly 4 months after the last booster, but all of us will likely get it by next fall.
 
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1/3 will run out and get the booster
1/3 will complain it is all about 5g, qanon mind control and beg you to watch some redacted youtube video
1/3 will sit down and make a conscious decision after taking to their healthcare provider and weighng the risks vs benefits.
and how many people will get it because their city or employer mandates it through coercion through public policy outside of whatever your doctor says?
 
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and how many people will get it because their city or employer mandates it through coercion through public policy outside of whatever your doctor says?

That would be part of the 1/3 making a conscious decision. Just as people who don't want to give up smoking, chose not to work for healthcare systems that prohibit employee use of tobacco. Or people who choose not to get any of the other vaccines required by healthcare systems. Every job has requirements, and those requirements are not "coercion." People are absolutely free to seek employment elsewhere, or be self-employed if they so chose.

Edited to add....literally every place requiring vaccines offers a health exemption, so if someone's doctor actually says they shouldn't get the vaccine, then they will be exempt from the requirement. Of course, the actual medical reasons someone shouldn't get the vaccine are almost non-existent.
 
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1/3 will run out and get the booster
1/3 will complain it is all about 5g, qanon mind control and beg you to watch some redacted youtube video
1/3 will sit down and make a conscious decision after taking to their healthcare provider and weighng the risks vs benefits.
everything in nature is more of a bell-curve, or gaussian distribution. More like 25%, 50%, 25% or even 10, 80, 10, but the 2 extreme ends are always the most vocal and outspoken. Know your molecular biology. Know how to talk confidently, looking them in the eyes, about the DNA-RNA-Protein triangle of biology. Know the difference about mRNA, and reassure them it is impossible to turn back into DNA and actually permanently integrate into their cells (if they even ask or care). Most won't care. Most just want to know the side effects, and that this is safe and effective just like all other medications.
Reassure.
Reassure.
Reassure. Yes, the next 24 - 48 hours after the second shot, sometimes the booster, suck, with being tired, headaches, 99-deg fever, but then it's gone, just like most other vaccines, especially the annual flu shot. It's worth it.

The only conspiracy that exists is the financial one, to continually suckle at the government teet to pay for vaccines every 5-6 months for everyone. Free money. What big corporation wouldn't?
 
The only conspiracy that exists is the financial one, to continually suckle at the government teet to pay for vaccines every 5-6 months for everyone. Free money. What big corporation wouldn't?

Sure....but there are many more corporations making money off of hospitalized COVID patients-the hospital, radiology, IV fluids, expensive biologicals, all the companies that make breathing treatments.....and Fed government is picking up a big portion of those costs. And people who survive and are discharged, many of them are on breathing treatments and/or oxygen, and a ton of other supplementary treatments (secondary antibiotics, probiotics, steroids, antidepressants for their PTSD from being on a vent, LMWH, blood pressure drugs, and on and on) Only 3 companies are making money off of the vaccines, there are lots more companies making money off the treatments for COVID.

So if you want to argue that 3 companies are promoting vaccines solely to make money, then you would also have to argue for the dozens of other companies fighting against vaccines because they are making money off of people getting sick with COVID. My guess would be companies are making far more money off of treating COVID patients, then they are off of the vaccines (but that might just be my perspective from seeing COVID patients, I don't know the hard numbers, but I do know there is *ALOT* of money being made off of COVID patients.) So if you are against giving corporations free money, get vaccinated, far cheaper in the long run.
 
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Sure....but there are many more corporations making money off of hospitalized COVID patients-the hospital, radiology, IV fluids, expensive biologicals, all the companies that make breathing treatments.....and Fed government is picking up a big portion of those costs. And people who survive and are discharged, many of them are on breathing treatments and/or oxygen, and a ton of other supplementary treatments (secondary antibiotics, probiotics, steroids, antidepressants for their PTSD from being on a vent, LMWH, blood pressure drugs, and on and on) Only 3 companies are making money off of the vaccines, there are lots more companies making money off the treatments for COVID.

So if you want to argue that 3 companies are promoting vaccines solely to make money, then you would also have to argue for the dozens of other companies fighting against vaccines because they are making money off of people getting sick with COVID. My guess would be companies are making far more money off of treating COVID patients, then they are off of the vaccines (but that might just be my perspective from seeing COVID patients, I don't know the hard numbers, but I do know there is *ALOT* of money being made off of COVID patients.) So if you are against giving corporations free money, get vaccinated, far cheaper in the long run.
thanks for your guess.
 
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