COVID vaccine general thread

[Sine Cura]

"Sure, so the people who get COVID despite vaccination are obviously going to be infectious. But the 95% who never get it probably won't be."

"Because more infectious variants won't exist"

these are both absurd statements and I don't believe either one

There are too many dip****s and too much restriction "fatigue" (really now what "fatigue" when people have been eating indoors in restaurants for months in Califormia and going wtf they want) to prevent new variants emerging or current notable variants spreading.

However the goal of reducing the burden on our health care non system is still in reach

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[johnpharm01]

Sure, so the people who get COVID despite vaccination are obviously going to be infectious. But the 95% who never get it probably won't be.

Are you saying that many people, large numbers won't contract COVID 19?

I think it's going to be endemic worldwide most people will contract COVID 19. Right now the mortality rate is around 1.5 %. That can change. The choice not to get vaccinated may haunt some folks.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Are you saying that many people, large numbers won't contract COVID 19?

I think it's going to be endemic worldwide most people will contract COVID 19. Right now the mortality rate is around 1.5 %. That can change. The choice not to get vaccinated may haunt some folks.

Yes, the vaccinated ones.

I think you're exactly right in that this is going to end up endemic and like most endemic respiratory viruses once enough people have it it won't lead to severe infections. This time, unlike most endemic respiratory viruses in history, we have a vaccine ready before everyone contracted it naturally. Once pretty much everyone has either had the vaccine or had the virus, this thing will likely just become another coronavirus that circulates but doesn't kill 1% of people who get it.

 

[RxPreceptor]

The American medical establishment is on the other side.

On a more positive note, J&J released their data today. We will have a third vaccine. Before everyone goes mad about the lower efficacy numbers please review this:

Been contemplating J&J for a while...yes, despite the lower reported efficacy and different technology (not mRNA), J&J does offer several advantages over pfizer and Moderna mainly in convenience (1 dose) and being more readily accessible on a commercial level (standard 2-8oC/fridge storage). At the end of the day, something is better than nothing (something I find myself saying a lot, especially those influenza years where efficacy is lower than the standard historical average)

 

[Old Timer]

I dunno, do people understand what frequentist statistics means? Interval estimates? Prob not

Can't wait for the South African variant to spread like wildfire

The S/A variant will not spread like wild fire because unlike the UK variant it is not more transmissible

 

[Old Timer]

Been contemplating J&J for a while...yes, despite the lower reported efficacy and different technology (not mRNA), J&J does offer several advantages over pfizer and Moderna mainly in convenience (1 dose) and being more readily accessible on a commercial level (standard 2-8oC/fridge storage). At the end of the day, something is better than nothing (something I find myself saying a lot, especially those influenza years where efficacy is lower than the standard historical average)

They need to reserve the J&J for:

• Home visits
• Rural Areas
• Third world where the storage won't be an issue.

Wait for the data on J&J for 2 shots.....

 

[Sine Cura]

I guess 501Y.V2 being the dominant strain in South Africa months after first detection means it's not more transmissible

 

[Chrish]

The more I read about J & J vaccine, the more pumped I get. It's not as as effective as P & M at preventing moderate/ severe symptoms but it essentially protects you near 100% from hospitalizations and death. It's just one dose and very easy to store in regular refrigerator.

What more can we ask for?

 

[Old Timer]

I guess 501Y.V2 being the dominant strain in South Africa months after first detection means it's not more transmissible

No but the B.117 variant has picked up the mutation from the S/A variant making more transmissible and more lethal/

 

[Sine Cura]

Pedantry's great

 

[Old Timer]

The more I read about J & J vaccine, the more pumped I get. It's not as as effective as P & M at preventing moderate/ severe symptoms but it essentially protects you near 100% from hospitalizations and death. It's just one dose and very easy to store in regular refrigerator.

What more can we ask for?

You can ask to see the data. Once the data is relaeased and reviewed by independent experts. I have been burned too many times during this pandemic. I no longer trust data by press release.

 

[Sine Cura]

SARS-CoV-2 Variants

www.who.int

On 18 December, national authorities in South Africa announced the detection of a new variant of SARS-CoV-2 that is rapidly spreading in three provinces of South Africa. South Africa has named this variant 501Y.V2, because of a N501Y mutation. While SARS-CoV-2 VOC 202012/01 from the UK also has the N501Y mutation, phylogenetic analysis has shown that 501Y.V2 from South Africa are different virus variants. [em mine] In the week beginning 16 November, routine sequencing by South African health authorities found that this new SARS-CoV-2 variant has largely replaced other SARS-CoV-2 viruses circulating in the Eastern Cape, Western Cape, and KwaZulu-Natal provinces. While genomic data highlighted that the 501.V2 variant rapidly displaced other lineages circulating in South Africa, and preliminary studies suggest the variant is associated with a higher viral load, which may suggest potential for increased transmissibility, this, as well as other factors that influence transmissibility, are subject of further investigation. Moreover, at this stage, there is no clear evidence of the new variant being associated with more severe disease or worse outcomes. Further investigations are needed to understand the impact on transmission, clinical severity of infection, laboratory diagnostics, therapeutics, vaccines, or public health preventive measures. As of 30 December, the 501Y.V2 variant from South Africa has been reported from four other countries to date.

 

[Old Timer]

Fir those of you who want to geek out on each and every variant and where it is I recommend:

CoVariants
and
Nextstrain

and Follow @firefox66 on twitter. Dr. Emma Hodcroft is a 34 y/o wonder woman in molecular biology.

 

[Sine Cura]

Rural community in shock after Georgia health officials raid clinic vaccinating teachers

Their plans to vaccinate Elbert County have been "laid to waste," a doctor from the raided medical center says.

www.nbcnews.com

Officials withholding vaccines from San Jose hospital that gave doses to teachers at wealthy school district

Santa Clara County health officials are withholding COVID-19 vaccines from a hospital after it offered the vaccine to about 65 teachers and staffers from a wealthy school district in Silicon Valley…

ktla.com

Slightly different responses to improper distribution.

Declaring expansion to >= 65 was a mistake without additional EUAs. For example, California alone has about 6 million people >= 65 and the Bloomberg tracker states California has administered ~170,000 shots per day to date, with a total of ~4.4m total doses administered so far, with 64% of supply used.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Rural community in shock after Georgia health officials raid clinic vaccinating teachers

Their plans to vaccinate Elbert County have been "laid to waste," a doctor from the raided medical center says.

www.nbcnews.com

This is ridiculous. So instead of issuing a warning, they just shut down the entire clinic for 6 months? Out of order or not, how is vaccinating teachers a bad thing? They should of just issued them a warning. Hasn't the CDC recommended both essential workers and people 65 & above as the next phase?

 

[Sine Cura]

It sounds like they just redistributed the vaccine to other providers in the county.

Surprise, surprise, the deranged are going ape**** that they can't get a vaccine because they are out of the current rollout phase: Hordes of “Vaccine Chasers” Are Overwhelming the Clinics I Run

 

[Old Timer]

 

[Sine Cura]

Just a reminder that vaccine non-acceptance is not just an American thing:

Germany has more than 1 million Covid-19 vaccines unused in storage

"We are working quite hard on this and trying to convince people to accept the vaccine and really to rebuild the trust in the vaccine," one official said.

www.nbcnews.com

Merkel said she wouldn't get the AZN shot because it wasn't approved for 65+

Japan will prob have similar issues.

Have fun with Karens arguing about what shot they're getting esp with the fluffed up mRNA efficacy # that are not comparable to the other platforms

At Walmart you the pharmacist are supposed to take the hit and allow a shot to proceed by using your "professional judgment" if proper documentation not provided by the customer. In reality do you want to waste vaccine or scrape up even more "waste avoidance" shots at the end of the day?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Just a reminder that vaccine non-acceptance is not just an American thing:

Germany has more than 1 million Covid-19 vaccines unused in storage

"We are working quite hard on this and trying to convince people to accept the vaccine and really to rebuild the trust in the vaccine," one official said.

www.nbcnews.com

Merkel said she wouldn't get the AZN shot because it wasn't approved for 65+

Japan will prob have similar issues.

Have fun with Karens arguing about what shot they're getting esp with the fluffed up mRNA efficacy # that are not comparable to the other platforms

At Walmart you the pharmacist are supposed to take the hit and allow a shot to proceed by using your "professional judgment" if proper documentation not provided by the customer. In reality do you want to waste vaccine or scrape up even more "waste avoidance" shots at the end of the day?

Want to expand on that a bit?

 

[iamapharmacist]

Well based in the current narrative by the white house and the media, nothing is going to change even with vaccines? So is there a point to getting the vaccine then?

 

[owlegrad]

Well based in the current narrative by the white house and the media, nothing is going to change even with vaccines? So is there a point to getting the vaccine then?

Saving lives?

 

[Old Timer]

Well based in the current narrative by the white house and the media, nothing is going to change even with vaccines? So is there a point to getting the vaccine then?

Not right now. Not when there are 70L cases per day. It doesn't mean forever. To quote Churchill:

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."

 

[Sine Cura]

Want to expand on that a bit?

Screening out potential symptomatic cases in the treatment arm. Differential usage of antipyretics between treatment arms. Emergence of the South African variant (ENSEMBLE trial included 15% South African participants whereas the Moderna COVE trial was U.S. only and started earlier and ended earlier)

20 more confirmed cases in the Moderna phase III treatment arm drops the RR point estimate to 83%

 

[Momus]

Back to normal in 6 months guaranteed. The chain of transmission has been broken with vaccines and with people who already got covid.

 

[Old Timer]

Back to normal in 6 months guaranteed. The chain of transmission has been broken with vaccines and with people who already got covid.

View attachment 331390

Maybe, maybe not. This is too soon for vaccines and it could be we are just coming down from the post Thanksgiving/Christmas/New Years extravaganza. Time will tell. We are still getting 70K cases per day nationally. That is way higher than last April's numbers.

 

[Momus]

Maybe, maybe not. This is too soon for vaccines and it could be we are just coming down from the post Thanksgiving/Christmas/New Years extravaganza. Time will tell. We are still getting 70K cases per day nationally. That is way higher than last April's numbers.


View attachment 331396View attachment 331396

Not to worry about that. 70k declining daily cases vs. 2M vaccination/day. It will be over soon. Hope traffic will not be back to normal :-/

 

[Sine Cura]

"Seasonality" + norms not traveling like they were for the holidays are more likely factors in the downturn. That means cases will spike next fall/winter

MFers forgot about variants? they will continue to circulate among the pool of people with suboptimal or nonexistent previous exposure

 

[M0df]

I mentioned it before but much of the staff at LTC facilities declined to get vaccinated. There were some sites with good participation but not that many. We will see drop off in vaccination numbers soon with vaccines sitting unused. Right now there is first wave in demand in retail clinics and obviously since it is 2 doses, they will come back.

Edit. Some places were rewarding their employees with gift cards. It seemed to have some benefit. So these things are free already but I bet we'll have to start paying people to get their shots.

 

[Old Timer]

I mentioned it before but much of the staff at LTC facilities declined to get vaccinated. There were some sites with good participation but not that many. We will see drop off in vaccination numbers soon with vaccines sitting unused. Right now there is first wave in demand in retail clinics and obviously since it is 2 doses, they will come back.

Edit. Some places were rewarding their employees with gift cards. It seemed to have some benefit. So these things are free already but I bet we'll have to start paying people to get their shots.

Nope. as soon as they approve the vaccine, not an EUA, employers will mandate it. End of problem.....

 

[owlegrad]

FDA warns against using anti-parasitic drug for Covid-19 after reports of hospitalizations — CNN

The US Food and Drug Administration on Friday said that people should not use ivermectin to attempt to treat or prevent Covid-19. The drug is typically used to treat parasites, such as lice and rabies.

apple.news

SURPRISE! Ivermectin isn't a cure for COVID. Imagine that. What's next? Tacrolimus? Truvada?

 

[Sine Cura]

Think they will ever study the "opposite" scenario?

Effect of previous SARS-CoV-2 infection on humoral and T-cell responses to single-dose BNT162b2 vaccine

So much angst about EqUiTy and dose completion could be saved if you just do one prime and let it rip afterwards

Again the rationale behind single dose JNJ is the persistence of "substantial" NAb after 1 dose (perhaps this has to do with Ad26 specifically)

 

[Sine Cura]

FDA warns against using anti-parasitic drug for Covid-19 after reports of hospitalizations — CNN

The US Food and Drug Administration on Friday said that people should not use ivermectin to attempt to treat or prevent Covid-19. The drug is typically used to treat parasites, such as lice and rabies.

apple.news

SURPRISE! Ivermectin isn't a cure for COVID. Imagine that. What's next? Tacrolimus? Truvada?

Theoretical MOA and in vitro activity doesn't translate clinically (see the Merck viral vector vaccine candidates). Hmm wonder why

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Theoretical MOA and in vitro activity doesn't translate clinically (see the Merck viral vector vaccine candidates). Hmm wonder why

 

[Sine Cura]

WhY gEt 70 WhEn YoU cAn GeT 95

J&J Covid vaccine distribution in poor, Black communities raises race questions

The allocation of J&J's shot to inner cities and rural areas, as some officials suggest, could bring allegations of discrimination based on race and class.

www.cnbc.com

It's easier to get a vaccine than a PS5 @ MSRP these days

NGL JNJ is better for me because don't have to give a **** about follow-up doses and 5 nominal doses per vial is better than 10 (Moderna)

 

[Sine Cura]

Wonder how these vaccine "passport" systems will validate vaccine status since you can just make up your vaccine status if self-reporting (it's also easy to forge the CDC COVID-19 card)

How likely is it that you’ll need a ‘vaccine passport’ to travel outside the U.S.?

Airlines and others in the travel industry are throwing their support behind so-called vaccine passports to boost pandemic-depressed travel, and authorities...

www.dallasnews.com

 

[BidingMyTime]

Wonder how these vaccine "passport" systems will validate vaccine status since you can just make up your vaccine status if self-reporting (it's also easy to forge the CDC COVID-19 card)

How likely is it that you’ll need a ‘vaccine passport’ to travel outside the U.S.?

Airlines and others in the travel industry are throwing their support behind so-called vaccine passports to boost pandemic-depressed travel, and authorities...

www.dallasnews.com

Well, at some point I would think you would have to have hard proof of immunization, just as many countries require for people traveling abroad. No country just takes a self-report on malaria or yellow fever vaccination.

 

[Sine Cura]

Returning to the U.S. at this time from overseas still requires a negative test regardless of vaccine status.

I doubt most other nations will just accept people's random documents. Again the CDC vaccine card is easily forged.

 

[Sine Cura]

One dose of Pfizer or Moderna vaccines was 80% effective in preventing Covid in CDC study of health workers

A single dose of Pfizer or Moderna's Covid-19 vaccines was 80% effective in preventing infections, according to a new CDC study.

www.cnbc.com

Let it rip

 

[Old Timer]

One dose of Pfizer or Moderna vaccines was 80% effective in preventing Covid in CDC study of health workers

A single dose of Pfizer or Moderna's Covid-19 vaccines was 80% effective in preventing infections, according to a new CDC study.

www.cnbc.com

Let it rip

Did you read the article. Two is better than one, period.

 

[Sine Cura]

This is a signal that the mRNA vaccines have effectiveness at reducing asymptomatic transmission

Why wouldn't anyone get two unless they're lazy or had an anaphylactic-type reaction or thrombotic event etc

 

[Pronounce Doxazosin]

J&J shot suspended in the US due to reported cases of blood clots
Since it’s only 6 cases, it’ll be curious to see what happens from here on out

 

[Sine Cura]

Thrombocytopenia has occurred post-vaccination with the mRNA vaccines and the AZN vaccine, too.

Discussion on proposed MOA in the NEJM paper on AZN and "vaccine-incuded immune thrombotic thrombocytopenia": https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2104840

Whether these antibodies are autoantibodies against PF4 induced by the strong inflammatory stimulus of vaccination or antibodies induced by the vaccine that cross-react with PF4 and platelets requires further study.

It is well known that adenovirus binds to platelets22 and causes platelet activation.22,23 Furthermore, the amount of adenovirus in a 500-microliter vaccine injection administered 1 or 2 weeks earlier would seem unlikely to contribute to subsequent platelet activation observed in these patients. However, interactions between the vaccine and platelets or between the vaccine and PF4 could play a role in pathogenesis. One possible trigger of these PF4-reactive antibodies could be free DNA in the vaccine. We have previously shown that DNA and RNA form multimolecular complexes with PF4, which bind antibodies from patients with heparin-induced thrombocytopenia and also induce antibodies against PF4–heparin in a murine model.24 Unfortunately, other Covid-19 vaccines were not available to us for testing.

Auto-antibodies against PF4 could occur with any vaccine so could be 'intrinsic' to the use of spike protein (AZN uses the wild type conformation)

Free DNA or RNA => mRNA vaccines or the adenoviral vector vaccines (or live attenuated or inactivated [split virion or whole virion])

 

[JustFillIt]

So - I’m just curious... Are we supposed to jump on the popular opinion bandwagon and say that the authorities that are halting the J&J vaccine are “anti-vaxers” and vehemently assert that not a thing was rushed and anyone that paused, even for a second, to recognize the fact that we are inoculating an entire world population with an investigational new drug is an uneducated lunatic worthy of being pressed under the heel of social oppression?

Just trying to get my finger on the pulse of popular opinion as this has become the new science authority which we are all obliged to get behind.

 

[Sine Cura]

Actually this is an indication that post-"marketing" surveillance is taken seriously in some parts of the world.

You could do pre-market studies for years and not come up with this event. 6 out of 6.8 million.

Being that there are alternatives already existing and at least one more OWS candidate to come this will def suppress demand for JNJ in the short term

 

[wamcp]

So - I’m just curious... Are we supposed to jump on the popular opinion bandwagon and say that the authorities that are halting the J&J vaccine are “anti-vaxers” and vehemently assert that not a thing was rushed and anyone that paused, even for a second, to recognize the fact that we are inoculating an entire world population with an investigational new drug is an uneducated lunatic worthy of being pressed under the heel of social oppression?

Just trying to get my finger on the pulse of popular opinion as this has become the new science authority which we are all obliged to get behind.

My personal opinion has always been: vaccinate the elderly and high risk ONLY with emergency use authorization vaccines. Pushing for EVERYONE to be vaccinated without full FDA approval of vaccine is dangerous to public health- dangerous in the sense that if headline adverse events like these thrombotic and thrombocytopenic issues occur, especially requiring a pause in vaccine delivery, you will create new generations of mass antivaxxers and significantly destroy public trust in “the science”

 

[Sine Cura]

Hitting only a targeted population misses the point for a "need" for a wide-spread "public health" immunization program

This program is destined to fail anyway from a herd protection POV and limiting variant emergence and spread POV.

 

[owlegrad]

Pausing the vaccine rollout due to an occurrence that is literally less than one in 1 million is mind boggling to me. Forgive me for indulging in a little bit of whataboutism but that is a rate lower than smoking or oral contraceptives. It is clearly an intense overreaction by almost any standard. What are the relative risks here? How many additional people are at risk for catching COVID and dying because of a literal less than 1 in a million chance of blood clotting? How certain are we that it was the vaccine that caused the clotting anyway?

I somewhat agree about it feeding into the anti-vaccine narrative but I come at it from the opposite perspective. I think this action gives them some illegitimate legitimacy.

 

[JustFillIt]

Pausing the vaccine rollout due to an occurrence that is literally less than one in 1 million is mind boggling to me. Forgive me for indulging in a little bit of whataboutism but that is a rate lower than smoking or oral contraceptives. It is clearly an intense overreaction by almost any standard. What are the relative risks here? How many additional people are at risk for catching COVID and dying because of a literal less than 1 in a million chance of blood clotting? How certain are we that it was the vaccine that caused the clotting anyway?

I somewhat agree about it feeding into the anti-vaccine narrative but I come at it from the opposite perspective. I think this action gives them some illegitimate legitimacy.

I just find this cult of popular opinion and culture of shaming with buzz words like “anti-vaxer” to be grossly disgusting. The age of critical thinking is gone and is being overshadowed by crowd sourcing overwhelming opinion.

with that said I got my 1st dose in December and second in January. Wife got 1st yesterday. Do I have some objective concerns about using an investigational new drug like this? Yes - I do. But I do not pretend to know if these concerns would be good or bad.

 

[owlegrad]

The age of critical thinking is gone.

I unironically completely agree with you. The fact that flat earth society exists makes me question basically every preconceived notion I have about people’s ability to think and reason.

 

[JustFillIt]

I unironically completely agree with you. The fact that flat earth society exists makes me question basically every preconceived notion I have about people’s ability to think and reason.

Wait a second.... Your telling me the earth is not flat?