To be honest, of the 13 schools that I applied to, Temple was my 6th pick, so I am NOT hating on Temple, I just want the public to know the truth in order to make an informed decision.
Crime Rate SKY HIGH at TEMPLE DENTAL
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To be honest, of the 13 schools that I applied to, Temple was my 6th pick, so I am NOT hating on Temple, I just want the public to know the truth in order to make an informed decision.
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And of course, you, Lord AskJeeves, are the holder of said truth?
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I'll let the numbers speak for themselves. Temple's acceptance rate to OMFS was 100% this year. As far as Penn and Columbia, neither of those schools have specialization rates over 90%. Maybe >90% go into residencies, but that's a completely different story.
Glad to know you're willing to wax on and on about a process you admittedly don't know much about.
What do I know though compared to a pre-dent, right?
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Indeed, a large percentage of those "specialties" are actually GPR's.
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Dentaldawg and Armorshell just nailed my point.
of the Temple grads that had APPLIED for residency (whether it be GPR AEGD OMFS Endo Pedo Ortho etc) over 90% got in. Specialization does NOT equal Residency.
It is a fact though that this year Temple had a 100% placement into OMFS residencies of those who applied. Just as Armorshell said...
What it boils down to is this:
Temple is an excellent program. If you want to do General Dentistry, it will prepare you better than most others. You'll come out more prepared to go into private practice. If you want to specialize, come to Temple, work hard, get good grades, do well on your boards, and you will be at ZERO disadvantage over someone graduating from another school.
Many PreDents claim that attending schools such as Columbia, Harvard, and UPenn will drastically improve their chances of specializing. However, they fail to realize that this stigma is a big part of why those schools have such specialty rates. It's the students, not the schools. Students go to those schools with aspirations to specialize.
Most students that attend Temple want to be great General Dentists, and Temple provides them that opportunity. There are still many that attend Temple with aspirations of going on into specialty programs and they are more than capable of doing so. They have to do the SAME thing as their counterparts at other schools: Rank high in class, Do Well on boards, Externships, Letters of Rec, etc,etc,etc
Dental school is what you make of it. Work hard and Learn your stuff. Do it for yourself, do it for your patients.
of the Temple grads that had APPLIED for residency (whether it be GPR AEGD OMFS Endo Pedo Ortho etc) over 90% got in. Specialization does NOT equal Residency.
It is a fact though that this year Temple had a 100% placement into OMFS residencies of those who applied. Just as Armorshell said...
What it boils down to is this:
Temple is an excellent program. If you want to do General Dentistry, it will prepare you better than most others. You'll come out more prepared to go into private practice. If you want to specialize, come to Temple, work hard, get good grades, do well on your boards, and you will be at ZERO disadvantage over someone graduating from another school.
Many PreDents claim that attending schools such as Columbia, Harvard, and UPenn will drastically improve their chances of specializing. However, they fail to realize that this stigma is a big part of why those schools have such specialty rates. It's the students, not the schools. Students go to those schools with aspirations to specialize.
Most students that attend Temple want to be great General Dentists, and Temple provides them that opportunity. There are still many that attend Temple with aspirations of going on into specialty programs and they are more than capable of doing so. They have to do the SAME thing as their counterparts at other schools: Rank high in class, Do Well on boards, Externships, Letters of Rec, etc,etc,etc
Dental school is what you make of it. Work hard and Learn your stuff. Do it for yourself, do it for your patients.
If what you are suggesting is true, why is it that Temple intentionally selects such deadbeat students?
Why does a school's location and the percentage of students that choose to specialize decide whether or not a school is second tier to you? Isn't it the quality of the education that matters? And how can you be the judge of that if you've never been?
So are you calling your 10 friends deadbeats?
So are you calling your 10 friends deadbeats?
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You talk about dental school like a 12 year old girl on a 3-way conference call and hopefully you gain a little humility and perspective when you experience it for yourself... I hope you specialize like crazy.
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What? You can't be serious.
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You'd have to define deadbeat for me to answer that. Is your definition of a deadbeat "Student who doesn't specialize?" Or is it "Student who doesn't specialize in Ortho/OMFS?"
You also realize the majority of the dental school application process is self-selection (school choice) by students, right?
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This is similar to those arguments that 17 year olds get in about which undergrad to attend. Is it "easier" to go to med/law/grad school if you attend a top tier school as oppose to your local state college? Having attended an ivy league school for my undergrad and finishing up with this dental process, my answer would be no. Is it true that there are more students entering grad school from top tier schools? Certainly. Does that mean its easier for them to be accepted? Certainly not. Bottom line is that if you want to specialize (or get into grad school for all those 17 year olds who are having the same argument), then you have to work hard, regardless of where you attend. Graduating from an almighty ivy as the OP seems believe, does not guarantee a spot with your name on it nor will it justify mediocre grades. If you want that competitve spot then you have to present competitive grades and background (much like applying to dental school, imagine that).
Wow, very childish jeeves. Some people who actually know about the process show you how utterly misguided you are (including drawing improper conclusions from what data you do have), and you resort to name calling. Grow up, and stop trying to convince yourself that you are made in the shade for a specialty because of what school you will be attending. It will still take lots and lots of hard work no matter where you go.
A pass is a 4.0 in the first tier schools like Harvard, Columbia and UCSF that rely on the pass/fail grading system
I was just paraphrasing what Armorshell said originally. Don't kill the messenger . . .
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Yep. Pomona is sketchy. Even while I was at my interview at Louisville the emergency intercom came on announcing that a student had been assaulted and to take precautions etc. while everyone was waiting for their second interview. Some of the faculty were embarrassed but we all understood that things like that just happen. And this is coming from a guy from a city who hasn't had a murder in 30 years.
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This is true. I guess we all better choose a different profession. Because if there's one thing that's going to convince us to not attend dental school after thousands of hours of studying, volunteering, shadowing, participating in various activities, writing personal statements, paying thousands of dollars to apply, interviewing and waiting impatiently until December first, or later... it's a single newspaper article about a crime that happened near campus.
"Around" is relative. For UCLA, Tufts, BU, NYU, Harvard, Loma Linda, UCSF, etc. "around" is several miles away from campus. For Temple, "around" is one block in the wrong direction. I do not know any Temple Dental students who live within walking distance of the Dental School. All of the students either live in center city or in the suburbs. Even at Columbia in Washington Heights, nearly all first year students live in dorms or off campus housing that's on the Medical campus, and within walking distance to the dental school. Is Temple the only dental school without on-campus dorms?
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Well, you would want to make sure that you live through dental school so that your hard work pays off.
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Yeah, it'd be nice to live through dental school... but imagine how nice it would be to not have to repay all those loans!
you might not have to repay your loans, but your co-borrower (parents) are still on the hook . . .
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I didn't know we needed co-signers... they never said anything about it when I filled out my financial aid.
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Read the fine print
I did read the fine print. The loans I am getting are federal loans, not from private lenders, and don't require a cosigner. In filling out my loan applications, it never asked for a cosigner of any sort.
Just wait until you borrow in excess of the federal guidelines . . .
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It's my understanding that the school you attend creates a yearly "cost of attendance" break down and you are able to apply for aid up to that amount with no cosigner. That includes subsidized and unsubsidized stafford loans as well as grad plus loans. If you need to borrow in excess of that, then you would need to got the provate route, which would require a cosigner. However, if I ever have to borrow more than the $92,000 allowed annually by my school, I think I'll have a heart attack and die. Then we won't have to pay it back, because I won't have borrowed it.
Is that the annual federal limit? That seems awfully high . . . I think you are mixing federal and private loans . . .
http://www.salliemae.com/get_student_loan/apply_student_loan/cosigning_loan/
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This is an application for a private student loan. The federal loans are stafford and grad plus. I originally filled out my MPN's through SallieMae (before Obamacare passed and I had to redo everything). And while yes, that is awfully high, it's sadly the cost of one year of dental school where I'll be going. It includes tuition, fees, health insurance, housing, groceries, etc. Total cost of attendance :$368,000.
I'm not sure if you can borrow 92K in federal loans annually. . . Are you sure you aren't taking out any private loans in that mix?
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Positive. There is an annual limit on the Stafford loans, something like $32,000 and $8500 (totals just over $40,000). But on the grad plus loan, the school tells the government the average cost of attendance, and you can be approved for up to that amount, minus what you receive from Stafford loans and scholarships.
Looks like you are correct, but you do need a co-signor if your credit is bad or if you are declined (for whatever reason) . . .
http://www.gradloans.com/graduate-plus-loan/
Maybe going to Temple isn't a bad idea after all?
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True cost of attendance is calculated by your school but financial aide can always increase that amount if you need extra money for "housing." I've seen people at my school get approved to borrow 10-15k more primary because they have a family and need extra money to support
Do they end up taking out half a million dollars?
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Someone's never heard of Graduate Plus loans...
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Not what I said at all, I never called anyone a deadbeat, and anyone can plainly see that the average Columbia/Harvard/Penn student is more academically (Meaning GPA/DAT) qualified than the average Temple (or UoP) student. Luckily, averages don't have much to do with ones individual success in dental school.
I remember these same sad arguments when I was applying to dental school, and how I was repeatedly told UoP was a poor school for specializing, over say, a school like Columbia (Which I turned down to attend Pacific). Now I (and my classmate) are headed to one of the most competitive and well-regarded OMFS programs in the country.
I also happen to know the schools that students that interviewed this year (at the program I matriculated to) attended which (for funs sake) I will rack up a few of for you:
Harvard: 0
Columbia: 0
UCSF: 1
Penn: 1
Temple: 1
UCLA: 0
UoP: 3
By this analysis, of a single year of admissions at a single top-tier oral surgery program, I think I can safely wildly conjecture (most statistically significant form of reasioning on SDN) that UoP is the greatest school for specializing ever. 2nd tier schools include UCSF, Penn and Temple. Last place, you get the idea.
If you disagree that this striking analysis is valid, then you must reexamine your own understanding of how this works.
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^ Good post.
Please stop making such unfounded claims and misinforming others. Let us take another example. I believe everyone will agree that the Orthodontics residency program at Harvard is one of the most prestigious and most competitive specialty programs to get into. If you think someone from Penn/Columbia will automatically have a better chance of getting into Harvard Ortho than someone from Temple/NYU, then you are mistaken. Let's see how many people actually got into Harvard Ortho this year from selected dental schools:
Harvard: 2
NYU: 1
Penn: 0
Columbia: 0
UCLA: 0
FYI, one of the current Ortho residents at Harvard is also from NYUCD (anyone at HSDM can verify this). Based upon the given data, would you still advise someone who aspires to get into Harvard Ortho against attending NYUCD and say "Forget it if you want to get into ortho" because "a friend who went to NYU" said "it's nearly impossible to get into Ortho from NYU"? FYI, 10 students got straight into Pedo from NYUCD Class of 2009. Based upon this data, would you still advise those who want to specialize in pedo against attending NYUCD because NYUCD is not one of the "first tier" schools by your definition?
You are free to believe what you want to believe, but please stop making uninformed claims that Temple and NYU aren't good schools for those who want to specialize.
Please stop making such unfounded claims and misinforming others. Let us take another example. I believe everyone will agree that the Orthodontics residency program at Harvard is one of the most prestigious and most competitive specialty programs to get into. If you think someone from Penn/Columbia will automatically have a better chance of getting into Harvard Ortho than someone from Temple/NYU, then you are mistaken. Let's see how many people actually got into Harvard Ortho this year from selected dental schools:
Harvard: 2
NYU: 1
Penn: 0
Columbia: 0
UCLA: 0
FYI, one of the current Ortho residents at Harvard is also from NYUCD (anyone at HSDM can verify this). Based upon the given data, would you still advise someone who aspires to get into Harvard Ortho against attending NYUCD and say "Forget it if you want to get into ortho" because "a friend who went to NYU" said "it's nearly impossible to get into Ortho from NYU"? FYI, 10 students got straight into Pedo from NYUCD Class of 2009. Based upon this data, would you still advise those who want to specialize in pedo against attending NYUCD because NYUCD is not one of the "first tier" schools by your definition?
You are free to believe what you want to believe, but please stop making uninformed claims that Temple and NYU aren't good schools for those who want to specialize.
1) Anyone can make up numbers to prove a point, but without published, verifiable data, it's difficult to assess the accuracy of your figures;
2) assuming your data is correct, the pattern clearly indicates that the program is not very competitive;
3) I agree that UoP is a stellar dental school
4) Here is real data (courtesy of UCONN): http://orthodontics.uchc.edu/residents/index.html as you can see (class of 2011):
Upenn: 2
Harvard: 1
UCSF: 1
UoP: 1
Do you see a pattern?
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Kindly refer to post #83 to avoid further redundancies
Do you have a link to this data that the public can view to confirm that you are not pulling these numbers out of your buxom bosom? Also, 1 out of 400 NYUCD students is hardly impressive.
I personally have all the names of the 10 people who got into Pedo from the Class of 2009, but unfortunately I cannot disclose the names on an internet forum to respect the privacy of these individuals. If you want to verify the information, you could try asking someone at NYUCD's Student Affairs, or contact one of the current pedo residents from NYUCD Class of 2009 and ask how many of their classmates got straight into pedo. As for the profile of the Ortho residents at HSDM, you could ask someone at HSDM to verify the above figures once the residency program starts in July.
I totally understand that you want to verify that the information I provided is coming from a reliable source. What I can tell you is that I have no reason to lie, and you could verify the information using the sources I suggestive above. I just wanted to share the information that I thought would be helpful.
I totally understand that you want to verify that the information I provided is coming from a reliable source. What I can tell you is that I have no reason to lie, and you could verify the information using the sources I suggestive above. I just wanted to share the information that I thought would be helpful.
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1. There is absolutely NO post-graduate residency in the country that will publish figures on the students it INVITES TO INTERVIEW. Also, have you ever heard the phrases "selection bias" or "confirmation bias?" Plucking out a random factoid that proves your point means absolutely nothing in considering the big picture. This was the entire point of my post, which everyone seems to have missed.
2. Ever heard the phrase "begging the question?" Here's an example:
3. UConn ortho must not be a very good program if that's the case, since by my analysis above those are mostly tier 2 and 3 dental programs. .
I hate "bias quoters" on internet forums, but your argument is just a pile of confirmation bias and begging the question. Your tenets are held so tightly close that literally nothing could change your mind.
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Why does anyone care about the students at are INVITED to interview? What really counts is who is eventually ACCEPTED. I don't see how my observations are biased as I make no OPINIONS since my OBSERVATIONS are based on actual data. This just proves how your logic is so twisted . . .
I don't know how we got off topic as my original post to this thread added to the topic that Temple is in an especially (if not the most) dangerous neighborhood when compared to other schools, which, in addition to the lower caliber of its students and its relatively lower specialization rates when compared to the Ivies, decreases the quality of the dental school.
I don't know anything about the quality of the Ortho program at UCONN, I just presented it because it was readily accessible online and it supports the onbious fact that competitive residencies have a preference for students from top tier schools, i.e., UCSF, Harvard, etc.
When you use the word "hate," I am reminded of those who angrily contested the civil rights movement in this country in the 60s, those who undermind democracy worldwide, those who restrained scientific thought before the age of the Renaissance, etc. . . I think it would be much more constructive if you thought with your head and not your emotions . . .
BTW, Steve Wynn's decision to pull out of the Foxwoods casino project in Philadelphia illustrates just how undesirable a city Philadelphia is . . .
That's all I'm saying . . .
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I will believe whatever data is presented to me and so far no one has presented any real, objective data to me. I feel like I am the only one presenting real data whereas those that are Pro-Temple are bitter and making up data to artificially spruce up the quality of the school. I feel like I am arguing about how stem cell research can benefit medical research against religious conservatives who rely on personal faith rather than actual science. . .
But I totally understand how you feel. I remember trying to convince all of my friends that the Atari Jaguar was the greatest gaming machine ever made because I was the only one stupid enough to buy it and I wanted others to buy it and share in my misery. Obviously, misery loves company . . .
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