Criminal record and matching

[sdbuilt]

Hey guys!

So I am a non traditional student who is doing a second bachelors degree. Should end up with a 3.0 cumulative and a 3.6 science GPA when done and should get a good MCAT score since the science is not too difficult to me. (I failed a couple history courses that I overslept the midterm for in my first degree which is why my cumulative is low.)

I am concerned about matching to a residency since I have 1) a dui 2) a petty theft and 3) a possession of a prescription drug without a prescription. These are all going to be almost 15 years old by the time I apply for residency, and they are all currently expunged. Yes I am going to be honest about them from the get go even when applying to medical school. Yes, I have learned from my mistakes and have been sober for 4 years.

I am not likely going to get into a US med school with my current stats but I should get into one of the big 4 Caribbean. I wouldn't consider anything other than the big 4. My concern is about matching from Ross or wherever with the criminal background. I understand Ross has a 90 percent match rate, but that might change with the crunch in 2016. If it goes lower, then it gets more competitive and the criminal record might play a bigger role in the competition.

What would you do in my position? Would you perhaps do a SMP so you have a shot at getting into a US school where matching is high percentage, and therefore I have a better chance of matching with my criminal record?

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[Blively]

"...and they are all currently expunged."

I don't think you need to mention these since they are already expunged. However, a resident or a recent residency applicant will be able to explain what the wording is on the application.

 

[QofQuimica]

This discussion is pointless without an MCAT score. But even with those GPAs, you have no business applying to the Caribbean before having given getting into US schools (MD and DO) an honest effort first. With or without a criminal record, getting a residency slot as a Caribbean grad is a very uphill battle and should certainly not be your first resort. Ross does *not* have a 90% match rate, because that doesn't take into account all of the students who drop or flunk out without ever making it to the point of being able to apply for residency. The Caribbean schools, including the big four, engage in significant legerdemain to make their numbers look better, when in fact their attrition, graduation, and match rates are significantly worse than those of any American MD or DO school.

Concerning your criminal record, the real issue is less one of whether you can match to a residency, and more one of whether you can get licensed to practice in your state. I suggest that you contact your state medical board, explain the details of your record, and ask whether this will affect your ability to be licensed. If you can't ever be licensed, you might as well know that now before you go taking out six figure loans and spending a decade of your life training for a job you can never have.

 

[sdbuilt]

Hey Q thanks for the reply. I am definitely thinking about this stuff a little early, as I won't take the MCAT until a year and a half from now, but I am just trying to plan ahead and choose courses wisely if I have to have a backup career in mind. But yeah, I didn't take attrition into account of match rate, just the people who finish school end up having a 90 percent match rate from Ross. I spoke with the rep from Ross today, and he said they do have a 25 percent attrition rate, and bottom line, they couldn't lie about the match rate for students who finish even if they don't include those who fail/drop out. I guess I just don't think I will be one of those 25 percent of students that drop or fail out. That does make me wonder about US schools that post 98 percent match rates etc. I doubt they include attrition rate either in their calculation? But yeah their attrition rate is much lower for sure.

As far as licensing goes, there is nothing that straight up disqualifies me from obtaining a license, as far as my research goes. I will definitely take your suggestion though and give them a call. So overall though you think US is the way to go? Would you take a SMP if you were in my shoes and didn't get in after applying the first time? I really don't like the idea of an extra year in school...

 

[xffan624]

Hey Q thanks for the reply. I am definitely thinking about this stuff a little early, as I won't take the MCAT until a year and a half from now, but I am just trying to plan ahead and choose courses wisely if I have to have a backup career in mind. But yeah, I didn't take attrition into account of match rate, just the people who finish school end up having a 90 percent match rate from Ross. I spoke with the rep from Ross today, and he said they do have a 25 percent attrition rate, and bottom line, they couldn't lie about the match rate for students who finish even if they don't include those who fail/drop out. I guess I just don't think I will be one of those 25 percent of students that drop or fail out. That does make me wonder about US schools that post 98 percent match rates etc. I doubt they include attrition rate either in their calculation? But yeah their attrition rate is much lower for sure.

As far as licensing goes, there is nothing that straight up disqualifies me from obtaining a license, as far as my research goes. I will definitely take your suggestion though and give them a call. So overall though you think US is the way to go? Would you take a SMP if you were in my shoes and didn't get in after applying the first time? I really don't like the idea of an extra year in school...

The prescription drug conviction doesn't have any impact on DEA licensing?

Let's see an extra year of school and chance to get into a US medical school over having a 35% chance of either not matching or failing out and thus destroying any chance of ever getting into medical school? And that 35% chance is the best case scenario given to you by the school's rep (no conflict of interest there). That 90% rate also likely includes the prelim spots that are mostly dead-end jobs and does not reflect the future crunch which you will likely to be experiencing when you're ready to graduate (assuming you get there).

 

[Blively]

I have a couple of friends who graduated from Ross U last year. One is an Anesthesiology resident at Boston U Med Center and the other is doing family medicine residency at Baylor. At the end of the day it all depends on your board scores. Keep in mind that many US med graduates don't match either.

 

[neurodoc]

I agree with others that the major issue will be whether or not you will have a problem getting licensed by the State Medical Board. Any felony conviction can present a problem for you. Were these felony or misdemeanor convictions? Getting them "expunged" is a good thing. I'd advise that you talk to a lawyer about whether or not you need to reveal your "expunged" record to med schools or residency programs (or even to the medical boards when you apply for licensure).

Just because a criminal record has been "expunged" or "sealed" doesn't mean that it no longer "exists." The fact is that such criminal records do continue to exist in law enforcement databases, and they are retrievable to law enforcement agencies.

It sounds like these were not felony offenses and since they occurred 15 years ago and were "expunged" they shouldn't be a real problem. I suspect that you don't have to reveal them to med schools or residency programs. As regards the state medical boards or the DEA, I'd suggest letting them know about these "expunged" records, if for no other reason that they are likely to have access to your "expunged" records and failure to disclose this information could lead to problems.

 

[gyngyn]

Attrition from US medical schools is remarkably low. https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf

 

[sdbuilt]

So I know for sure that I have to reveal my record to the state licensing. And if that is the case, then I have to reveal it to the residency program as well since they will be looking at my license. And if that is the case I should reveal them to my school since I don't want any discrepancy between my school app and my residency app. So bottom line a conviction being expunged means nothing other than the fact that it has been a while since your conviction and you haven't been in trouble since. Especially since a lot of schools and residency programs ask if you have ANY convictions, expunged or not, that they should be aware of. I'd be **** ed if I said no and their was a discrepancy later down the line. But yes they are all misdemeanors, and even the prescription one does not blacklist me from ever obtaining a license.

So I may tend to agree with you, xfann, that 1) there is a crunch coming 2) a US school with an extra year is better than a 35 percent chance of never getting a residency. I guess the question is how much a SMP would increase my odds of getting into a US medical school. Would it increase it 2 percent? 40 percent? These are things to take into consideration when I just say screw it a SMP isn't going to help me get into a US med school, I will just take my chances in the Carib that I won't fail/drop and that my 15 year old record won't keep me from being one of the 90 percent who match into ANYTHING. I am not going for surgery here... Just a family practice somewhere.. So how much does a SMP really help you get into a US med school??

 

[whatbout2morrow]

Even if the state boards are to tell you that it will not impact your licensing, no one will be able to tell you for sure what your chances will be at matching being a Carib grad with a criminal history in a residency crunch.

You might want to ask your rep about how many people actually finish within four years as well. If you end up being at Ross for close to 5 years, you might as well have done the SMP + US medical school.

Also, compare the finances involved in attending a Carib school vs SMP+attending a school in the US.

 

[xffan624]

So I know for sure that I have to reveal my record to the state licensing. And if that is the case, then I have to reveal it to the residency program as well since they will be looking at my license. And if that is the case I should reveal them to my school since I don't want any discrepancy between my school app and my residency app. So bottom line a conviction being expunged means nothing other than the fact that it has been a while since your conviction and you haven't been in trouble since. Especially since a lot of schools and residency programs ask if you have ANY convictions, expunged or not, that they should be aware of. I'd be **** ed if I said no and their was a discrepancy later down the line. But yes they are all misdemeanors, and even the prescription one does not blacklist me from ever obtaining a license.

So I may tend to agree with you, xfann, that 1) there is a crunch coming 2) a US school with an extra year is better than a 35 percent chance of never getting a residency. I guess the question is how much a SMP would increase my odds of getting into a US medical school. Would it increase it 2 percent? 40 percent? These are things to take into consideration when I just say screw it a SMP isn't going to help me get into a US med school, I will just take my chances in the Carib that I won't fail/drop and that my 15 year old record won't keep me from being one of the 90 percent who match into ANYTHING. I am not going for surgery here... Just a family practice somewhere.. So how much does a SMP really help you get into a US med school??

Depends on the SMP. Some have linkages with a medical school if you meet certain standards for the program, some only guarantee an interview and some only provide application support. All will give you a better chance to get into medical school if you excel at them. Regardless you should at least take a shot at an application cycle in the states and include applying to DO schools before you jump to the Caribbean.

 

[sdbuilt]

Thanks guys. Good advice. Guess when it comes to apply I will apply to everything: US MD, US DO, SMP, and Caribbean, with Carib being last resort for the reasons whatbout described. Appreciate you all taking the time to comment.

 

[sdbuilt]

Sorry I just thought of another question though... Is it a negative to be a re-applicant if I don't get into US MD or US DO, and then apply later after having completed a SMP? Would it possibly be better to only apply to US MD/DO after I complete the SMP, so I am not a re-applicant?

 

[kraskadva]

Sorry I just thought of another question though... Is it a negative to be a re-applicant if I don't get into US MD or US DO, and then apply later after having completed a SMP? Would it possibly be better to only apply to US MD/DO after I complete the SMP, so I am not a re-applicant?

Yes and Yes.

Applying before you're fully prepared (or analogously taking the MCAT before you're fully prepared) shows poor judgement and decision making.
You don't want to add a half-@ssed app on top of your prior history of poor judgement and decision making. It would be a nail in the coffin.
You want to show good judgement and good decisions, and only apply once.

 

[whatbout2morrow]

Even if you were to score very high on the MCAT, I think the 3.0 cgpa will significantly hinder you in the case of most US MD or DO schools. If you were to retake the courses that you failed before you apply (ie make use of grade replacement offered by AACOMAS), perhaps you would get some love from DO schools. The application process is expensive and to an extent draining, my advice is to do it once and do it right.

 

[ridethecliche]

I wonder if the OP could use grade replacement for those history courses.

 

[QofQuimica]

So overall though you think US is the way to go?

Absolutely. Especially since you haven't even tried to get into an American school.

Would you take a SMP if you were in my shoes and didn't get in after applying the first time? I really don't like the idea of an extra year in school...

It would depend on why you didn't get in. Like I said, this discussion is pointless without an MCAT score. If you have a 30+ to go along with your 3.0/3.6, that's very different than if you have something below a 24 (which is generally the minimum that our state schools here in FL will accept). Your ECs (shadowing, volunteering, etc.) will also be important. Hopefully you have already started getting significant clinical experience; if not, you should start ASAP.