Current healthcare professional, have applied numerous times and been denied.

[Mastodon12589]

My situation is a bit complicated, so before I go on you have no idea how much I appreciate you taking the time to read over my post and offer advice. Thank you.

I was on a PT track in undergrad, but didn't focus that much on my grades, so when it came time to graduate and transition into the DPT program I was denied because my GPA was not high enough, and I had a C- in Physics 1. I then applied to the Master's program for Athletic Training at my college because it seemed like a good idea at the time. The Masters program shared numerous courses with the DPT students, which kept motivating me throughout the program to want to go back to physical therapy school. I finished out grad school with a 3.8 GPA, and after grad school, I served as the inaugural Head Athletic Trainer at a HS in my city for a year before taking off for personal reasons.

I thought maybe having an extreme turnaround with my GPA in a graduate program that shared numerous courses with the DPT students, and being an already licensed healthcare professional would have given me a good chance of getting accepted, and hopefully making up for the C- in Physics 1. I have interned at 3 ortho outpatient clinic's, and a neuro outpatient clinic, totaling over 350 hours. I took the GRE twice while in grad school, getting a 303 combined as the highest.

I have applied over the course of two PTCAS cycles and been denied from:
University Illinois-Chicago x2
Northwestern x2
NYU x2
UMDNJ
Touro
Pacific University
Thomas Jefferson University
George Washington University
Governors State
Midwestern University

My questions are:
1) Should I just re-take physics 1? And if so, should it be at a 4 year institution or a community college?
2) Are there schools that would overlook the undergrad grades for the grad school degree and current healthcare experience?
3) Should I do an in-patient observation?

I again thank you for taking the time to read my post and offer advice.

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[ktachiba]

What is your cumulative GPA and pre-req GPA?

 

[starrsgirl]

I was in the same boat a few years ago. I had a 4.0 masters in kinesiology. It is never enough to overcome poor pre req GPA. Yes, you absolutely have to retake physics AND any other pre reqs you go a C (or even B-) and less in. For a lot of schools you will be automatically rejected for a C- in a pre req class no matter how much other stuff you have on there. Please share your pGPA and cGPA for more advice.

 

[okramango]

Most, if not all, PT programs will not accept a grade lower than a C for any prereq course, so that C- in physics is the likely reason you were rejected from all of them. You can retake it at a community college. Depending on what your prereq GPA is, you might want to retake other prereq courses too. You also might consider applying to programs that look only at your last 60 units GPA rather than full cumulative GPA. Lots of students who did poorly in undergrad are able to turn around and go to PT school, but you need to meet the school's basic requirements, and it sounds like you didn't because of your physics grade.

 

[starrsgirl]

**If others are reading this post, this is a great example of the masters dilemma. Many students believe that doing a masters will help make them more competitive for DPT school. I believe it doesn't help at all UNLESS you are already a competitive applicant (then it helps you stand out among other applicants). If you get a masters because you are interested in the field.....great (that's what I did too). But don't get a masters only to apply to PT school.

A quick google review verifies that many of the schools on your list required a minimum of a C in every pre req course (University of Chicago, Northwestern......). So you won't get any consideration from those schools until you meet their minimums. Check all of your other classes and double check every single admissions criteria for each of your schools before you apply again.

That said, you will likely be a good PT. The athletic trainers in my program are very prepared for school. You also have patient experience which is huge. Spend this summer and fall retaking any pre reqs you need to take. Get a few more observation hours to show you are current. I would wait as long as possible until your retake grades are factored in before applying this cycle (if you apply before you retake Physics and/or other courses you will get rejected again). You were likely rejected before anyone even read your application.

 

[dakswim]

Like others have said, you might be a great candidate once they sit down and give your application a hard look but it has probably never gotten that far specifically because they likely toss it out the second they glance at the grades and spot a 'C' in a pre-req. They have so many people applying it's just pragmatic on their end to narrow down the pool that way and spend time getting to become more familiar with those that have read through the pre-requisite requirements for incoming applicants.

In-patient observation would be very good as from what I've gathered most schools will appreciate variety of experience over raw hours. I'd recommend going the CC route for both the cost and the fact that most PT schools really don't seem to care, though it's always a good idea to research the schools you want to go to in depth in case there's one or two that do factor that into things. Best of luck to you!

 

[DjT3kN]

Complete some hours in an inpatient setting. This is important for your application... in my opinion.
Second, yes retake your physics as everyone has already stated above me. If you have any other C's in any science courses, especially prereqs, I'd suggest to retake those as well.

 

[DesertPT]

If you never retook that C- in physics, you could re-apply a hundred times and never get accepted. You are not an eligible candidate for admission at the vast, vast majority of schools. I don't mean to sound harsh, but how is it that you have done a master's program but not read the admissions requirements on schools' websites?

I just did a quick Google search of all 10 schools that you applied to and every single one except NYU and Governor's had a very obvious line that said a grade of "C" or higher is required in all pre-reqs. Several explicitly state that a grade of "C-" is not acceptable. I would be pretty surprised if NYU and Governor's accept C-'s, but I suppose it's possible.

Were you offered any interviews? Unfortunately your application was probably auto-trashed at most schools simply due to an eligibility issue.

If you retake that physics class (community college is totally fine btw) and any other pre-reqs you got C's or B-'s in (bring that pGPA up a bit as starrsgirl has discussed) I am confident you will get in next cycle, if you still plan to apply again. Being an ATC and having a strong grad school GPA makes you a good candidate.

A bit of inpatient experience would help a lot too, as schools like to see that you haven't only experienced one half of the PT world. In fact, having both inpatient and outpatient observation hours is an explicit requirement at a number of schools. And these need to be with a PT, hours with an ATC don't count. I haven't looked to be sure, but this could potentially be another area where you missed eligibility requirements at a few schools.

So let me emphasize one more time: STOP WASTING YOUR MONEY AND YEARS OF YOUR LIFE APPLYING IF YOU DON'T MEET THE MINIMUM ENTRANCE REQUIREMENTS. IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW AWESOME YOU ARE IF YOUR APPLICATION DOESN'T EVEN GET LOOKED AT. This applies not only to the C- in physics, but also if your cGPA or pGPA or diversity of observation hours is below the minimum required. I doubt your cGPA is below a 3.0 now with your masters, but to be honest (and again I am not trying to be rude here), PT schools' attitudes are that you really don't deserve to be admitted if you can't follow instructions.

Best of luck. Sorry to lay a little tough love on you, you do sound like a good student with a lot of potential. Let us know what other questions you have.

 

[DesertPT]

You also might consider applying to programs that look only at your last 60 units GPA rather than full cumulative GPA.

Bingo.

Lots of students who did poorly in undergrad are able to turn around and go to PT school, but you need to meet the school's basic requirements, and it sounds like you didn't because of your physics grade.

Double bingo.

 

[Mastodon12589]

No hard feelings on the tough love, it is kind of what I need at this point. I'm really appreciative of everyone's reply's. I wish I knew about this forum before I even went on to get my masters.

I applied for the '12-'13 cycle and '13-'14 cycle, and decided to not apply this current cycle. Looking at my PTCAS transcripts, I would probably have to retake not only Physics 1, but Physics 2 (C), General Chemistry 1 (C), General Biology (B-) and Intro to Psychology (C). My undergrad anatomy and physiology grades were both C+'s, but in grad school I earned an A- in Functional Human Anatomy and a B in Human Physiology (which were just two of the many courses taken with the DPT students.)

 

[ptlover]

Retake those classes. Don't give schools any option but to accept you. Don't let them put a red flag on your application for not meeting the minimums. The money and time you put in to that app isn't worth it if you don't put your best foot forward. I've learned that if you dont improve the weaknesses on your application its like there is a sign on your head saying " Deny me. Let other students get in before me". But if you take this year to get your ducks in a row you'll be so competitive! I wish you the best! I applied 3 times before I was accepted. Part of it was that I had weaknesses on my application.

 

[ktachiba]

I dont believe you need to retake General Bio since you got a B- in it...usually schools will allow you to have 1 or maybe 2 C's as long as the rest of your pre-req GPA is above a 3.0 (more like a 3.3 to be competitive). The only classes where you probably can't get a C in is anatomy and physiology, as these are the most important pre-req classes for PT school.

 

[SwampPT]

Well damn I really wanted to post a good answer, but y'all beat me to the punch. I guess I'll take my ball and bat and go home now

 

[brooklynyc]

Definitely don't try to skirt the basic requirements of grade minimums and clinical experience. As far as I know there is nothing to indicate that an admissions committee would overlook not meeting prerequisites. The name itself prerequisite means "required beforehand". That should tell ya something!

Whoops I wrote most of the above before reading your second post. Don't worry man. If you did well in your master's program you will destroy those prereqs. I started my prereqs completely new at 28. I am 31 now and starting my program in June. If this is what you want to do, just bang out those prereqs and get the boat moving. You crushed it with a 3.8 in grad school so I'm sure retaking some prereqs shouldn't be a problem.

Again, the one thing you need to is make sure you at the LEAST meet all their basic minimum requirements. If they ask for 100 hours of clinical observation, make sure you have the 100 hours.

I had a terrible undergrad GPA (2.6?) and despite rocking my postbacc classes I still did not manage to get my overall gpa above a 3. I did relatively well on the GRE, with 157 Q 167 V. Maybe you can improve there as well. It would not hurt to retake the GRE.

You can definitely do it!

 

[ktachiba]

Definitely don't try to skirt the basic requirements of grade minimums and clinical experience. As far as I know there is nothing to indicate that an admissions committee would overlook not meeting prerequisites. The name itself prerequisite means "required beforehand". That should tell ya something!

Whoops I wrote most of the above before reading your second post. Don't worry man. If you did well in your master's program you will destroy those prereqs. I started my prereqs completely new at 28. I am 31 now and starting my program in June. If this is what you want to do, just bang out those prereqs and get the boat moving. You crushed it with a 3.8 in grad school so I'm sure retaking some prereqs shouldn't be a problem.

Again, the one thing you need to is make sure you at the LEAST meet all their basic minimum requirements. If they ask for 100 hours of clinical observation, make sure you have the 100 hours.

I had a terrible undergrad GPA (2.6?) and despite rocking my postbacc classes I still did not manage to get my overall gpa above a 3. I did relatively well on the GRE, with 157 Q 167 V. Maybe you can improve there as well. It would not hurt to retake the GRE.

You can definitely do it!

Those are amazing GRE scores in my opinion lol

 

[HughLee]

No hard feelings on the tough love, it is kind of what I need at this point. I'm really appreciative of everyone's reply's. I wish I knew about this forum before I even went on to get my masters.

I applied for the '12-'13 cycle and '13-'14 cycle, and decided to not apply this current cycle. Looking at my PTCAS transcripts, I would probably have to retake not only Physics 1, but Physics 2 (C), General Chemistry 1 (C), General Biology (B-) and Intro to Psychology (C). My undergrad anatomy and physiology grades were both C+'s, but in grad school I earned an A- in Functional Human Anatomy and a B in Human Physiology (which were just two of the many courses taken with the DPT students.)

I would suggest contacting your potential schools and verifying their retake policy, and also whether they would accept your grades in Functional Human Anatomy and Human Physiology from grad school.

 

[DesertPT]

wrong quote, @ptlover

 

[DesertPT]

The only classes where you probably can't get a C in is anatomy and physiology, as these are the most important pre-req classes for PT school.

Totally depends on the school. Some weight some pre-reqs more heavily than others, most weight them all equally.

A C in physics weighs your GPA down just as much as a C in A&P. All the foundational sciences are important and relevant to PT school.

 

[DesertPT]

I would suggest contacting your potential schools and verifying their retake policy, and also whether they would accept your grades in Functional Human Anatomy and Human Physiology from grad school.

+1. Researching what schools you apply to carefully will help you a lot. Applying to only schools with relatively generous grade replacement policies and/or schools that look at the last 60 hours to determine your pre-req GPA will improve your chances substantially.

One solid semester of going back to school to retake most (if not all) of those bad pre-reqs and to get some inpatient observation should do the trick for you. Hopefully.

 

[ptlover]

@DesertPT Haha I never even quoted that nor do I even know where that is from . That is so weird. Thanks for telling me! I got rid of it! I was on my phone lol so who knows how it happened.

 

[starrsgirl]

I would retake everything you got a C in (at a minimum). For me, in a very similar situation, that made all the difference from getting denied everywhere to getting accepted everywhere. You should be able to pack those classes in over this summer and the upcoming semesters and be good to go. I even kept working while I did it and took classes on nights/weekends....so possibly save some $$ too. You seem like a decent applicant, you def have a shot....just suck it up and jump through the sometimes ridiculous feeling hoops.

 

[starrsgirl]

P.S. I took Functional Anatomy as part of a masters program in Kinesiology. It did NOT count towards fulfilling the admission pre req of anatomy. Call the schools on that one....otherwise, just plan to retake the sequence. I retook everything at a community college, the courses were pretty easy but for me (and you) it was more about showing you can get good grades and improving your admission statistics.

 

[ktachiba]

Totally depends on the school. Some weight some pre-reqs more heavily than others, most weight them all equally.

A C in physics weighs your GPA down just as much as a C in A&P. All the foundational sciences are important and relevant to PT school.

yeah thats true, all the pre-reqs are important...but for the most part, anatomy and physiology seem like 2 classes that you can't get C's in. I've seen people get C's in other pre-reqs and gain admissions, but never heard of a student getting a C in anatomy and physiolgy and getting accepted.

 

[HughLee]

The following is true for my school. Your mileage may vary at other schools.

1. If you have a C- in one of our prerequisite courses and have no evidence that you are retaking the course, you are missing one of our prerequisites. Your application will probably not progress much farther than that.

2. We count all prerequisites the same when determining your prerequisite GPA. Four credit courses will have more of an effect compared to three credit classes, but that is just due to the number of credits.

3. We would likely NOT allow a Functional Anatomy course to substitute for an Anatomy prerequisite. My school wants a broad background in anatomy and physiology where you will learn about all of the systems of the body, not just the musculoskeletal.

4. Check your potential school's retake policy. We accept two retakes, one per class. And we use the higher grade. Other schools seem to have vastly different policies.

5. We do not care if your prerequisite courses are from a 4-year University or a community college.

6. Research your potential schools. Find our what is unique or special about the schools. Check minimum requirements. In our school, and I think this applies to many PT schools, about 1/3rd of applicants do not meet the minimum requirements.
6a. PT School requirements and programs vary among schools. Select the schools where you meet their requirements and they meet your requirements.

7. If you have any questions, or if something is not clear, or if you just want to find out what your chances are: call or e-mail the school.

Good luck Mastodon, and all others.

 

[DesertPT]

The following is true for my school. Your mileage may vary at other schools.

1. If you have a C- in one of our prerequisite courses and have no evidence that you are retaking the course, you are missing one of our prerequisites. Your application will probably not progress much farther than that.

2. We count all prerequisites the same when determining your prerequisite GPA. Four credit courses will have more of an effect compared to three credit classes, but that is just due to the number of credits.

3. We would likely NOT allow a Functional Anatomy course to substitute for an Anatomy prerequisite. My school wants a broad background in anatomy and physiology where you will learn about all of the systems of the body, not just the musculoskeletal.

4. Check your potential school's retake policy. We accept two retakes, one per class. And we use the higher grade. Other schools seem to have vastly different policies.

5. We do not care if your prerequisite courses are from a 4-year University or a community college.

6. Research your potential schools. Find our what is unique or special about the schools. Check minimum requirements. In our school, and I think this applies to many PT schools, about 1/3rd of applicants do not meet the minimum requirements.
6a. PT School requirements and programs vary among schools. Select the schools where you meet their requirements and they meet your requirements.

7. If you have any questions, or if something is not clear, or if you just want to find out what your chances are: call or e-mail the school.

Good luck Mastodon, and all others.

I think most of this is true at a lot of schools. There is a lot of variability obviously but from all the schools I've looked at these seem to be fairly.commonly true principles. But don't neglect to reaearch your schools!

 

[SwampPT]

The following is true for my school. Your mileage may vary at other schools.

1. If you have a C- in one of our prerequisite courses and have no evidence that you are retaking the course, you are missing one of our prerequisites. Your application will probably not progress much farther than that.

2. We count all prerequisites the same when determining your prerequisite GPA. Four credit courses will have more of an effect compared to three credit classes, but that is just due to the number of credits.

3. We would likely NOT allow a Functional Anatomy course to substitute for an Anatomy prerequisite. My school wants a broad background in anatomy and physiology where you will learn about all of the systems of the body, not just the musculoskeletal.

4. Check your potential school's retake policy. We accept two retakes, one per class. And we use the higher grade. Other schools seem to have vastly different policies.

5. We do not care if your prerequisite courses are from a 4-year University or a community college.

6. Research your potential schools. Find our what is unique or special about the schools. Check minimum requirements. In our school, and I think this applies to many PT schools, about 1/3rd of applicants do not meet the minimum requirements.
6a. PT School requirements and programs vary among schools. Select the schools where you meet their requirements and they meet your requirements.

7. If you have any questions, or if something is not clear, or if you just want to find out what your chances are: call or e-mail the school.

Good luck Mastodon, and all others.

AMEN I've been preaching about researching schools so much I'm tired of reading my own posts! Is your school doing any research as to what indicates success in PT school. So far I've noticed that PT schools vary widely in how they weigh each category. I have yet to see solid research on what truly determines success in PT school. I'm waiting for someone to take the torch and provide a concrete answer.

 

[HughLee]

AMEN I've been preaching about researching schools so much I'm tired of reading my own posts! Is your school doing any research as to what indicates success in PT school. So far I've noticed that PT schools vary widely in how they weigh each category. I have yet to see solid research on what truly determines success in PT school. I'm waiting for someone to take the torch and provide a concrete answer.

About 10 years ago one of our faculty members researched this using students in our program. The best predictor for passing the NPTE was PT school GPA. And the best predictor of PT school GPA was prerequisite GPA. We did not use the GRE in our program then, so it was not evaluated.

 

[jesspt]

AMEN I've been preaching about researching schools so much I'm tired of reading my own posts! Is your school doing any research as to what indicates success in PT school. So far I've noticed that PT schools vary widely in how they weigh each category. I have yet to see solid research on what truly determines success in PT school. I'm waiting for someone to take the torch and provide a concrete answer.

It's not sucess in PT school, but they did look at the ability of admission criteria to predict NPTE success:

http://ptjournal.apta.org/content/87/9/1181.short

 

[Mastodon12589]

Thank you all for all of your responses.

Out of curiosity, would Physics 1 from this program (BYU's Independent Study online http://is.byu.edu/site/courses/description.cfm?title=PHSCS-105-M001) count on an application, or can it only be taken from a 4 year or community college?

 

[Rgvmed]

4.0 prereq, 3.2 overall 320 GRE. BINGO!!!!! Crush the GRE and your Prereqs and you get into PT school. It's not rocket science folks.

 

[starrsgirl]

Thank you all for all of your responses.

Out of curiosity, would Physics 1 from this program (BYU's Independent Study online http://is.byu.edu/site/courses/description.cfm?title=PHSCS-105-M001) count on an application, or can it only be taken from a 4 year or community college?

It depends completely on the individual school. Call them directly. Have a link ready to send with the course info. I WAS able to do a physics retake on an online format. I had already taken the class and lab in person and passed (but a low pass). Even though my school did not allow online labs, in this case I was still able to retake physics online since technically I was applying with an in-person class still on my record. I sent the info to the school and kept the email record of the exchange I had with the school in case there were any problems. I encourage non traditionals to ask about this type of thing. Sometimes there are different options for retakes (especially if you passed the course the first time). Also, some schools were able to waiver me out of certain requirements too which helped me prioritize retakes. (For example, I needed speech for one school but had extensive public speaking experience....so instead of messing with an online course, they marked it down as waived.) Although sounds like you need the grade in this case.

 

[Mastodon12589]

The following is true for my school. Your mileage may vary at other schools.

1. If you have a C- in one of our prerequisite courses and have no evidence that you are retaking the course, you are missing one of our prerequisites. Your application will probably not progress much farther than that.

2. We count all prerequisites the same when determining your prerequisite GPA. Four credit courses will have more of an effect compared to three credit classes, but that is just due to the number of credits.

3. We would likely NOT allow a Functional Anatomy course to substitute for an Anatomy prerequisite. My school wants a broad background in anatomy and physiology where you will learn about all of the systems of the body, not just the musculoskeletal.

4. Check your potential school's retake policy. We accept two retakes, one per class. And we use the higher grade. Other schools seem to have vastly different policies.

5. We do not care if your prerequisite courses are from a 4-year University or a community college.

6. Research your potential schools. Find our what is unique or special about the schools. Check minimum requirements. In our school, and I think this applies to many PT schools, about 1/3rd of applicants do not meet the minimum requirements.
6a. PT School requirements and programs vary among schools. Select the schools where you meet their requirements and they meet your requirements.

7. If you have any questions, or if something is not clear, or if you just want to find out what your chances are: call or e-mail the school.

Good luck Mastodon, and all others.

As I stated before, I know I would have to re-take physics, but I have a question, Hughlee, why would your school not accept the Anatomy and Phys courses I took at the graduate level? I took the Functional Human Anatomy course with DPT students and PA students, and the Human Physiology I took with the DPT students. I also was the TA for the Functional Human Anatomy lab as a second year student. Since you stated your school wouldn't accept those courses, is this going to be the case for me when re-applying (even with physics re-taken) to any other school? Would I have to retake anatomy and physiology at the undergrad level (since they were both C+'s)?

 

[starrsgirl]

As I posted above, my Functional Anatomy course I took as a graduate student also did NOT count at any DPT school I applied to. They reverted back to my undergrad anatomy courses for the pre req grades (I also had Cs in undergrad....so even though I had an A in Functional Anatomy, yes, I had to retake the undergrad course). Possibly yours would count at the DPT program where you took the courses, but don't bank on it. Often, the program's accreditation is based on the pre reqs as stated and the schools may not have the flexibility to waive some of them. Functional Anatomy is not the same as Anatomy through a biology department anyway. I noticed a lot of differences in it....my Functional was only bones/muscles and a few nerves. We didn't cover any internal structures/organs or any cranium stuff.

In your case, you need to contact each and every school directly and provide the course number and description. I also recommend getting it in writing if any school OKs the course for you.

One more thing that may be an issue to you....at every school, you need to check how old the pre req courses can be. It sounds like you could be past the five year mark on some of our original undergrad pre reqs. (Every school is different but I highly recommend looking that up as that's another automatic disqualifier)

 

[HughLee]

I would see a Functional Anatomy class as more of a combination of musculoskeletal anatomy and kinesiology, rather than as a course that would cover all of the anatomical systems of the body (including integumentary, renal, digestive, neural, etc.). If DPT students are taking your functional anatomy course, it is probably more of a specific anatomy course rather than a general anatomy course. We are making the assumption that you have a good understanding of all of the anatomy and physiology from your undergraduate prerequisite courses. Then we will teach you the more specific anatomy and physiology.

As starrsgirl suggested, contact the schools you are interested in and see if they would accept the course. Some might. If you want to try to use the Functional Anatomy class as a prerequisite, talk to someone at the school first, and get approval first. Then when your application is submitted to the school follow up with an email that they are accepting the substitution. My guess is that if you do it cold without getting approval or giving notice, they may not automatically make the substitution. PTCAS arranges classes by broad subject matter. Anatomy and Physiology would be in that category. A functional anatomy course would probably be in movement science, so the Functional Anatomy course may not be noticed or picked up.

All I can specifically talk about with certainty is my school. At my school, I would argue against accepting the course.

If you have any other questions, you can also contact me directly.

 

[HughLee]

It's not sucess in PT school, but they did look at the ability of admission criteria to predict NPTE success:

http://ptjournal.apta.org/content/87/9/1181.short

This is an interesting article. I would also recommend reading the commentary and author's response.