cutting through the bs...

[stupibname]

So I was musing and I began to wonder... with the ridiculous competition to get into medical school and the presence of so many great scientific minds in schools such as MIT, Berkley etc... why is it that medical school averages are around 30MCAT and 3.5 GPA? I mean surely there are enough people in the US smart enough to score a 35+ and have a 3.8+ to completely fill US medical schools... but obviously these people are not going to meidcal school... so the question is... where do these people go after undergrad?... my guess is they go into research and become professors... so its obviously not the great scientific minds persay that go to medical school... so is it the humanitarians who go the medical school?... one would guess not becuase it seems they typically flock to areas such as social work, facilitaing individuals with disabilities, and working for nonprofit orgnaizations etc... So the question is.... who actually goes to medical school?
I have come to realize that it is not the great scientfic minds nor the selfless humanitarians but instead those individuals who desire the glamor of being a "humanitarian" and a "scientific mind" without having to suffer the "horror" of being a low paid/prestige lacking social worker or researcher...

I realize that some of you might consider this post to be inflamatory; however, I just wish to recieve some logical/lucid/constructive thought on this matter...

I am sure some of you might post comments along this vein...

"Your a troll"

"How dare you acuse me of not being a humanitarian.. you don't know me"

and of course
"You don't deserve to be a doctor"

While these type of responses are quite humorous... they are not what I am going for so try to keep those to a minimum... thanks...

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[Rendar5]

so basically u'r saying that ur a glam-seeker?

 

[Pontifex Maximus]

I'm sure people have their own individual reasons, as I'm sure some purely do medicine for humanitarian reasons and some for purely academic. For me, I like medicine because it blends a bunch of my interests into one, and I get to flex my science muscle a bit and get a little humanitarian satisfaction out of it. Research alone is uninteresting to me, as it basically locks you down into being a professor. Social work is uninteresting alone because it doesn't really test my mind. I don't think anyone has said doctors were the smartest people on the planet nor the most humanitarian.

I don't think you are trolling, but I also don't know what you're getting at. Are you saying that this is how you feel or just how you think everyone else feels?

 

[-Goose-]

have you looked at the averages for the MCAT tester? how about the med school applicant? More people are rejected every year from med school than are accepted...

you talking condescendingly about people with 'measly' 30s on their MCAT and 3.5 GPAs... you need to venture outside SDN for a reality check.

So I was musing and I began to wonder... with the ridiculous competition to get into medical school and the presence of so many great scientific minds in schools such as MIT, Berkley etc... why is it that medical school averages are around 30MCAT and 3.5 GPA? I mean surely there are enough people in the US smart enough to score a 35+ and have a 3.8+ to completely fill US medical schools... but obviously these people are not going to meidcal school... so the question is... where do these people go after undergrad?... my guess is they go into research and become professors... so its obviously not the great scientific minds persay that go to medical school... so is it the humanitarians who go the medical school?... one would guess not becuase it seems they typically flock to areas such as social work, facilitaing individuals with disabilities, and working for nonprofit orgnaizations etc... So the question is.... who actually goes to medical school?
I have come to realize that it is not the great scientfic minds nor the selfless humanitarians but instead those individuals who desire the glamor of being a "humanitarian" and a "scientific mind" without having to suffer the "horror" of being a low paid/prestige lacking social worker or researcher...

I realize that some of you might consider this post to be inflamatory; however, I just wish to recieve some logical/lucid/constructive thought on this matter...

I am sure some of you might post comments along this vein...

"Your a troll"

"How dare you acuse me of not being a humanitarian.. you don't know me"

and of course
"You don't deserve to be a doctor"

While these type of responses are quite humorous... they are not what I am going for so try to keep those to a minimum... thanks...

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I think the point is that the OP is assuming that there is some sort of a brain drain effect, that somehow all of the best and brightest should be driven to become doctors- as though it is somehow the alpha and the omega of intellectual pursuits. As you touched upon Cozmosis, anyone who approaches medicine for a sole purpose alone- be it humanitarian, research, intellectual challenge or financial gain- is likely to be disappointed.

Either that or he is underhandedly trying to insulting us......

 

[thegymbum]

I've noticed that a lot of the top med schools have higher stats than that for their matriculates.. I believe wash u has an average close to 3.8 gpa, and 34 mcat.. Harvard and John Hopkins are closer to 3.7 gpa and 33 mcat, for a few examples. As for "people who do even better than that" but don't go to med school.. there are plenty of other professions requiring the same extent of intelligence.. phd's in various fields, law, etc.. I think that whatever career option one choses to persue is based more on their interest than "how much of a humanitarian they are". I'm bored with politics, so I chose medicine; politicians choose politics over medicine because it's what interests them. Who knows. Then again, I'm probably not even coming close to answering the question you asked

 

[Rendar5]

He is right about the intellectual capacity necessary for medicine, though. You don't have to be brilliant or a genius to get through it. The material is really not at that high a level of intellect. A lot of my college classes were a lot harder than anything I've been doing for the past couple years. Don't know how much people are aware of this fact. med school's volume volume volume.

 

[JustR]

He is right about the intellectual capacity necessary for medicine, though. You don't have to be brilliant or a genius to get through it. The material is really not at that high a level of intellect. A lot of my college classes were a lot harder than anything I've been doing for the past couple years. Don't know how much people are aware of this fact. med school's volume volume volume.

I don't think it would put too much pressure though.

 

[DrBowtie]

Everyone cant get a 30+ since it is scaled so only a certain percent get that score.

 

[{:(]

You're forgetting that not every person who has had 4.0 and a 40S on the MCAT was accepted at every medical school they applied to. People with great scores get rejected all the time and people with below average scores get in. A scientist does not need the ability to comfort people and a social worker does not need the ability to understand advance scientific ideas. I do it because I want to help people and never stop learning. However I do admit to there being a little encouragement to do this because of the honors I will receive, but that honor is insignificant to my other reasons; its a side effect.

 

[veenut]

pinky, your post doesn't make any sense.

no one ever said that medicine is the ONLY pinnacle of intellectual achievement, but it is one of many...one can be a legal, financial, political genius,etc.

secondly, you say that great scientific minds go into research, and that great humanitarians go into social work. notice how there's not much overlap between these two fields? well, medicine definitely offers aspects of both the scientific pursuit of knowledge and humanitarian work.

so maybe those who go into medicine are looking for a career that affords them the opportunity to do both.

 

[veenut]

Everyone cant get a 30+ since it is scaled so only a certain percent get that score.

haha this is a good point.

 

[stupibname]

thanks everyone.. beautiful replies... looks like I was misguided... and things are not as they seem... have a nice day

 

[Law2Doc]

So I was musing and I began to wonder... with the ridiculous competition to get into medical school and the presence of so many great scientific minds in schools such as MIT, Berkley etc... why is it that medical school averages are around 30MCAT and 3.5 GPA? I mean surely there are enough people in the US smart enough to score a 35+ and have a 3.8+ to completely fill US medical schools... but obviously these people are not going to meidcal school... so the question is... where do these people go after undergrad?... my guess is they go into research and become professors... so its obviously not the great scientific minds persay that go to medical school... so is it the humanitarians who go the medical school?... one would guess not becuase it seems they typically flock to areas such as social work, facilitaing individuals with disabilities, and working for nonprofit orgnaizations etc... So the question is.... who actually goes to medical school?
I have come to realize that it is not the great scientfic minds nor the selfless humanitarians but instead those individuals who desire the glamor of being a "humanitarian" and a "scientific mind" without having to suffer the "horror" of being a low paid/prestige lacking social worker or researcher...

I realize that some of you might consider this post to be inflamatory; however, I just wish to recieve some logical/lucid/constructive thought on this matter...

I am sure some of you might post comments along this vein...

"Your a troll"

"How dare you acuse me of not being a humanitarian.. you don't know me"

and of course
"You don't deserve to be a doctor"

While these type of responses are quite humorous... they are not what I am going for so try to keep those to a minimum... thanks...

The problem with your post is that it assumes too few career options -- i.e. either medicine or science or social work. It also assumes either that the smartest people out there are scientists, or that all people suited for medicine would otherwise be scientists or humanitarians, and again, this is too narrow a view, and likely wrong. In fact an awful lot of smart people don't go into scientific fields. There are extremely bright people in all careers, scientific, academic and not. There might be at least as many "geniuses" who become musicians, artists, writers, actors, journalists, philosphers, historians, mathematicians, businessmen, financiers, bankers, lawyers, etc. -- the list is truly endless. Might there be as many people in these careers who did well and college and would score well on the MCAT? Probably. Is medicine for everyone? Absolutely not.
The second problem with your post is that you are assuming that med schools would want to fill their ranks with people with 4.0/40+. While all schools have some semblance of a cut-off and each year the numerical stats at most places move a bit higher, schools do not simply take the highest numerical stat candidates they can get. You will find (if you go to med school), that there are at least as many people in each school with more average (3.5/30) stats (but more interesting pasts and ECs) than those purely with superior numbers. The reason is that med schools have found that more rounded and diverse classes tend to result in better doctors than a class filled purely with good test takers. For the same reason you will see lots of non-scientists in med school, a growing number of "nontraditional" candidates, and a rising average age of matriculants nationally.
I think if you want to be a "humanitarian" with a "scientific mind", and are concerned with "glamor" and salary, you are really taking a superficial look at medicine. Most of us have reasons for pursuing this field which did not require limiting our career decisions to a mere three choices (i.e. science, medicine or social work) based on these four relatively silly parameters. Statements like this sound like you are going into medicine without having explored the multitude of career choices out there, and perhaps could use an hour with a guidance counselor. Good luck.

 

[odrade1]

Strictly speaking, there are not all that many students who graduate from college each year (~33% of people who start college in the US ever graduate see link below). Also, there really aren't all that many smart people around, if you want to define smart in the way that you did. I had a 2170 GRE and a (pathetic) 33 MCAT. That makes me smart most places, but I dont' fit your definition. I remember my SAT & PSAT scores placing me in the 99 1/2 percentile. So I stand by my claim that there really aren't that many people who fit your definition of what smart is, if 1 to less than one percent of people fit the definition.
Many disciplines in this country attract people as smart as you seem to be talking about. Medicine has some bright people, but plenty of smart people go into research or into the private business world. Of those college students planning on graduating, only 66433 took the MCAT last year. Many of these were people who retook the MCAT, so really there were fewer than 66433 unique individuals who tested in 2005.
Only 5.6 % of testers in 2005 received a combined score of 35 or higher.
That makes 3720 people who fit your criterion of being both smart and willing to consider medicine as a career. As you may know, there are around 16,600 matriculants each year. So, plenty of the people who *are* as smart as you are talking about *do* go into medicine. Also, many people who are *not* as smart also go into medicine. I personally know several idiots who made it into medicine.
I agree with you that your average doctor is not as uniquely brilliant as he/she thinks he/she is. But that is true of tycoons and research professors as well. (How many of your research/university professors were you smarter than, in terms of general intelligence? Probably quite a few).
One thing that separates skilled physicians from many researchers is that their social skills & communication skills are often better, and they have diverse talents that make them suitable for a career in medicine.
Being merely smart is not enough to get you into most medical programs.

The truth is that people choose medicine for many reasons. I chose it because I have to do some kind of career that:
a) involves sig. amounts of face-to-face interactions with others.
b) is intellectually demanding
c) demands continuous learning
d) has direct relevance to people's lives (I started off in analytic philosophy, which has almost no relevance except w.r.t. intellectual pleasure).
e) makes me at least 50K a year.
f) allows me to work in a city of my choosing

Some of these are intellectual requirements; others are humanitarian or social; some are purely selfish/pragmatic. Few decisions in my life are based off of only one consideration. Most are multifactorial.

How about the people with great scientific minds who value their time spent with others more than time spent with microscopes? I will be willing to say that there are *many* great scientific thinkers in medicine and academic medicine, and that there are *many* great humanitarians as well. And please remember that there are more ways to minister to the needs of others than the ways you mentioned (i.e., social work). People NEED intelligent, compassionate doctors, and can receive both physical and emotional comfort from their physician. It is unfair to denegrate the humanitarian good that most doctors are able to do, when they are doing their job to the best of their ability.

Why are you interested in medicine? To avoid an unglamorous job like social work or an intellectually rigorous one like research?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/051700-01.htm
The MCAT data I mentioned came from the MCAT website. Look at score reports for 2005 examinees.

 

[tacrum43]

I am sure some of you might post comments along this vein...

"Your a troll"

I would never say that.

You're a troll.

Seriously though, medicine offers a unique combination of factors. People with high numbers aren't always qualified in other ways, so that's why they don't get in. Plus, just because you have a 3.5 and not a 4.0 doesn't mean that you're not as smart or don't know the material as well. Maybe you're just not that great at taking tests, or your undergrad is less free with the A's than other schools. I think that keeping a high standard in many areas is better than just taking someone on academics, because after medical school, it is no longer about that (at least for clinicians). Still, it's not like what we think matters as far as admissions. Jump through the hoop.

 

[Bernito]

You're a troll.

Funny how often people make this mistake... (Your, You're)

Another thing to keep in mind is there is no consensus way to measure intelligence. But the MCAT is not one of the methods being considered. The MCAT is an indication of how a student will do in medical school, and an imperfect indication at that. I wonder what Mozart would have got on the MCAT?

 

[QofQuimica]

I wonder what Mozart would have got on the MCAT?

Contextually at least, he would not have done very well; he died in 1791. Wohler didn't synthesize the first organic compound until the 1820s, Mendel didn't do his pea experiments until the mid 1800s, the germ theory of disease didn't come along until the late 1800s, and modern physics was mostly discovered in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. He'd have been ok with Newtonian physics, though; Newton died in 1727. He might even have had trouble with the VR and WS sections, b/c English was not his first language.

All joking aside, I agree with you that a person's MCAT score is not a predictor of intelligence, unless what you mean by "intelligence" is "good at taking the MCAT." A good work ethic would serve an aspiring doctor far better than being extremely intelligent.

 

[Pretty POHA]

Wow! Almost all of these posts were well thought out and passionate responses! It's apparent that those of you that did respond are very intelligent-- and I'm glad to know that people with this intelligence and care are going to be doctors someday. Gives me faith that there will be some great doctors out there in the future!

 

[ExtraAverage]

A good work ethic would serve an aspiring doctor far better than being extremely intelligent.

Finally, there it is.

Thank you and goodnite.

 

[AWhitehair]

"why is it that medical school averages are around 30MCAT and 3.5 GPA? I mean surely there are enough people in the US smart enough to score a 35+ and have a 3.8+ to completely fill US medical schools... but obviously these people are not going to meidcal school... so the question is... where do these people go after undergrad?... my guess is they go into research and become professors... so its obviously not the great scientific minds persay that go to medical school... so is it the humanitarians who go the medical school?..."


This alone does not make a good physician. Just like being brilliant doesn't necessarily make a good professor. It is a multiple array of qualities that give a person enough "potential" to be exceptional at these careers. The potential is what medical schools see... diamonds in the rough.

 

[plrae12]

stupibname, I'm a registered nurse and work in critical care units with many fresh-from-med school residents. They may have the greatest academic statistics but many of them are the dumbest doctors i have ever seen. I don't mean to offend, but medicine is not a glamorous job where you're supposed to play god. You really have to be in it because you want it, not because you want to walk around in a white coat and look like you are better than everyone else.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

before this thread devolves into a "the right and wrong reasons to go to med school" war, or arguing about the 'glamor' and arrogance that some doctors put on, I would argue that medicine **is** in fact the 'pinnacle of achievement,' the 'alpha and omega of intellectual pursuits' or whatever you want to call it --- just LOOK at what everyone on SDN is freakin living.

Insane competition. Tell me, what other fields require you to take an 8-hour exam just to get into a school for it? EIGHT HOURS people. and i'm not even beginning to talk about the exams and things you need to be able to continue school, graduate, and get your license to start working in the field. What other fields require such an extensive resume to get into (good gpa, mcat, clinical experience, volunteer experience, LORs, etc)?

When I become a doctor I'm going to be darn proud of what I am, and proud of what I did to become that (maybe i'm in it for the challenge). It's ok to take pride in what you do. F yeah, i'm in it for the glamor. Glamor that comes in the satisfaction of surviving the life of a med student, which has gotta be hellish, and as a resident, worse?, and as a physician who might work long or strange hours, and it comes in the satisfaction of helping people --- you don't belong in medicine if you're not humanitarian in some way.

 

[Hoberto]

He is right about the intellectual capacity necessary for medicine, though. You don't have to be brilliant or a genius to get through it. The material is really not at that high a level of intellect. A lot of my college classes were a lot harder than anything I've been doing for the past couple years. Don't know how much people are aware of this fact. med school's volume volume volume.

I think this is very true. For many of the truly stratospherically intelligent people medical school and medicine would not be nearly intellectually stimulating enough to pursue as a career.

There is also some mentality that medicine is only for those who come from a wealthy background or have connection or ideally, both. People who believe this may never look into medicine at all.

Many people measure intelligence by IQ. Of course, this is only one measure, but it leads me to some anecdotal evidence. If you start attending Mensa functions you will find that people from nearly all walks of life have high IQs, in the top 1% of the population (and choose to join Mensa). I have met people who were housewives/husbands, dance instructors, civil engineers, waitresses, nurses, doctors, lawyers, construction workers, secretaries (lots of them for some reason), artists, primary/secondary teachers, college educators, researchers (all levels- GED-PhD) , professional students, carpet washers, EMTs, writers, fast food workers, human resource workers and more.

It is rather naive to assume that all smart people want to be doctors. Smart people want the same things as 'not' smart people. These things probably include financial and career stability, happiness and health in some order.

 

[odrade1]

hoberto's signature: "Med school and grad school are hard, like swimming a mile. For med school you are in a lighted, heated lap pool with people walking alongside you telling you how far you've gone. When you are done everyone applauds and throws lots of money at you. But in grad school you start out on a deserted island on a foggy night, you can't see land in any direction. You have to swim around until you find land, for however long it takes and when you get there, it is just another deserted island.Hah! "

You are soooo right. This is actually one of the (many) reasons I left grad school to go into medicine.

 

[Shredder]

So I was musing and I began to wonder... with the ridiculous competition to get into medical school and the presence of so many great scientific minds in schools such as MIT, Berkley etc... why is it that medical school averages are around 30MCAT and 3.5 GPA? I mean surely there are enough people in the US smart enough to score a 35+ and have a 3.8+ to completely fill US medical schools... but obviously these people are not going to meidcal school... so the question is... where do these people go after undergrad?... my guess is they go into research and become professors... so its obviously not the great scientific minds persay that go to medical school... so is it the humanitarians who go the medical school?... one would guess not becuase it seems they typically flock to areas such as social work, facilitaing individuals with disabilities, and working for nonprofit orgnaizations etc... So the question is.... who actually goes to medical school?

legitimate thread. it takes a certain type of person to like med and go into it. you cant really generalize and say the best ppl go into X field. i know smart ppl who just dont feel like theyre cut out for med.

as for where other smart ppl go after undergrad--business, grad school, law school

 

[CTSballer11]

legitimate thread. it takes a certain type of person to like med and go into it. you cant really generalize and say the best ppl go into X field. i know smart ppl who just dont feel like theyre cut out for med.

as for where other smart ppl go after undergrad--business, grad school, law school

This is such a good point that most premeds do not realize. The majority of premeds need to get over themselves and realize that there are many smart people out there who can and would make it into medical school over them if they decided to go that route. Med school is a long road and is not for everybody. Believe it or not unless you are a doc in a top academic institution your job will basically be the same day in and day out. The diagnoses you make and the procedures you perform do not vary much. If you are looking for intellectual stimulation, this may not be your field.

 

[Gavanshir]

So I was musing and I began to wonder... with the ridiculous competition to get into medical school and the presence of so many great scientific minds in schools such as MIT, Berkley etc... why is it that medical school averages are around 30MCAT and 3.5 GPA? I mean surely there are enough people in the US smart enough to score a 35+ and have a 3.8+ to completely fill US medical schools... but obviously these people are not going to meidcal school... so the question is... where do these people go after undergrad?... my guess is they go into research and become professors... so its obviously not the great scientific minds persay that go to medical school... so is it the humanitarians who go the medical school?... one would guess not becuase it seems they typically flock to areas such as social work, facilitaing individuals with disabilities, and working for nonprofit orgnaizations etc... So the question is.... who actually goes to medical school?
I have come to realize that it is not the great scientfic minds nor the selfless humanitarians but instead those individuals who desire the glamor of being a "humanitarian" and a "scientific mind" without having to suffer the "horror" of being a low paid/prestige lacking social worker or researcher...

I realize that some of you might consider this post to be inflamatory; however, I just wish to recieve some logical/lucid/constructive thought on this matter...

I am sure some of you might post comments along this vein...

"Your a troll"

"How dare you acuse me of not being a humanitarian.. you don't know me"

and of course
"You don't deserve to be a doctor"

While these type of responses are quite humorous... they are not what I am going for so try to keep those to a minimum... thanks...

I havn't read any other replies but I agree with this. Same thought's been going through my head too. I think medical school does a great job of limiting a lot of very very bright students' potentials. Some medschool applicants are extremly bright and have the potential of achieving great things in life but medschool+residency+etc. simply drains their energy and puts them in the box thats the American healthcare system.

I think the real bright bright students are starting to realize this and are staying away from medschool to go for other growing fields like biotech where they'll actually be using their brains for innovation and scientific progress and getting a decent salary too.

 

[Scrub MD]

Perhaps the "smarter" kids with the 38 and 4.0 are not the type of kids the medical schools want. Us lower scoring people contribute 40+ hours a week to extracurriculars involving interactons with people and not a book or computer screen. Many with lower grades/MCAT spend time in sports/student clubs/just dealing with people.

Read the comments by Lizzy and REL (adcom members) about the interviewee who said nothing to any other students the whole day. The kid has a 35 MCAT and 3.9 GPA but stared at the clock for a few minutes, stepped forward and stroke the brick wall. This is why the higher scored kids are not getting admitted and go into research and technology(READ NO PATIENT INTERACTION).

*Disclaimer* I know some of you have high scores and still can hold a sentence with us common people. These opinions are based on my own observations about the pre-meds around me. FLAME AWAY!!! Or not?!?!

 

[Gavanshir]

Perhaps the "smarter" kids with the 38 and 4.0 are not the type of kids the medical schools want. Us lower scoring people contribute 40+ hours a week to extracurriculars involving interactons with people and not a book or computer screen. Many with lower grades/MCAT spend time in sports/student clubs/just dealing with people.

Read the comments by Lizzy and REL (adcom members) about the interviewee who said nothing to any other students the whole day. The kid has a 35 MCAT and 3.9 GPA but stared at the clock for a few minutes, stepped forward and stroke the brick wall. This is why the higher scored kids are not getting admitted and go into research and technology(READ NO PATIENT INTERACTION).

*Disclaimer* I know some of you have high scores and still can hold a sentence with us common people. These opinions are based on my own observations about the pre-meds around me. FLAME AWAY!!! Or not?!?!

You dingus!

 

[Scrub MD]

You dingus!

Thanks. You made my day.

 

[AWhitehair]

If you are looking for intellectual stimulation, this may not be your field.

I don't agree with your statement. In medicine there will always be something new to learn, be it a new disease, a new cure or a new procedure. I don't know about you, but I find that intellectually stimulating.

 

[CTSballer11]

I don't agree with your statement. In medicine there will always be something new to learn, be it a new disease, a new cure or a new procedure. I don't know about you, but I find that intellectually stimulating.

That is a good point but i have a classic example. My uncle is a CT surgeon. His week is filled with CABG after CABG, an occasional valve repair, and you can throw in a few lung cases a week. Sure there are new procedures but when you are working in a community hospital you usually deal with the "bread and butter". As you can see your job does not change much. You usually see the same cases over and over. Sure everyonce in a while something strange might come around, but these cases are usually reffered to academic institutions.

 

[oompa loompa]

intellectual stimulation at work is like so last year. I think you'll find very few jobs, including research/engineering/whatever are actually stimulating on a daily basis. Most of it is just repetitive work--i.e. you repeat your experients and tweak the experimental setup...until they work. Then you analyze the data and repeat the same experiment like a dozen times before moving on. Does that really sound exciting?

 

[oompa loompa]

I don't agree with your statement. In medicine there will always be something new to learn, be it a new disease, a new cure or a new procedure. I don't know about you, but I find that intellectually stimulating.

Well then, I guess you must find LIFE pretty intellectually stimulating, since you pretty much do learn something new every day, right?

That's a good attitude to have though
Unfortunately, when you enter medicine, your *life* as you know it will suddenly diminish and be consumed with the repetitive tasks of being a doctor...whoops, so much for learning new things!

 

[AWhitehair]

Well then, I guess you must find LIFE pretty intellectually stimulating, since you pretty much do learn something new every day, right?

That's a good attitude to have though
Unfortunately, when you enter medicine, your *life* as you know it will suddenly diminish and be consumed with the repetitive tasks of being a doctor...whoops, so much for learning new things!

Hmmm... I don't think I would want this sort of outlook on a career I am pursuing. You really might want to rethink things. I guess you would think this way though if you never ventured "outside the box". That is when things get intellecually stimulating.

 

[tacrum43]

Thanks. You made my day.

Your avatar is pretty hilarious. That's one ambitious dog.

 

[45408]

I mean surely there are enough people in the US smart enough to score a 35+ and have a 3.8+ to completely fill US medical schools... but obviously these people are not going to meidcal school... so the question is... where do these people go after undergrad?

Well, as has been pointed out, we are nowhere near 16,000 3.8/35 applicants, which is what it would take to fill med schools. You have to remember - there are lots and lots of smart people out there - and most of them would rather avoid blood/guts/prostates/secretions/pungent odors if at all possible. I'm not so sure that we're actually the smart ones. anyways, lots of smart people go to grad school, business school, law school, or something less visible. It's more than just brains that gets you places - you need ambition too. I know smart people who don't want to put in the time it would take to get through med school - they have other goals that are more important to them.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

There are a number of reasons why the MD degree is desirable. It's an incredibly versatile degree. As an MD, you can open up a private practice, be a surgeon, work a clinic for the poor (in the US), or do international medicine, basic or clinical research, public health and health care politics, medical/malpractice law, etc. I can think of no other degree that intersects so many different career paths. It's not all about prestige or money. Money and prestige and stability are *bonuses* of the profession, but undoubtedly, the M.D. degree is significantly more powerful and flexible than the Ph.D., J.D., M.B.A., M.P.H., etc.

 

[21JumpStreet]

pinky, your post doesn't make any sense.

no one ever said that medicine is the ONLY pinnacle of intellectual achievement, but it is one of many...one can be a legal, financial, political genius,etc.

secondly, you say that great scientific minds go into research, and that great humanitarians go into social work. notice how there's not much overlap between these two fields? well, medicine definitely offers aspects of both the scientific pursuit of knowledge and humanitarian work.

so maybe those who go into medicine are looking for a career that affords them the opportunity to do both.

I don't think we can generalize by saying that one group of people are more humanitarian than others. I met social workers that were anything but humanitarian. Unfortunately, I've met psychiatric social workers that were abusive and a disgrace to the human race. I don't know how they made it through their counseling internships and their practicum placements.

 

[Shredder]

That is a good point but i have a classic example. My uncle is a CT surgeon. His week is filled with CABG after CABG, an occasional valve repair, and you can throw in a few lung cases a week. Sure there are new procedures but when you are working in a community hospital you usually deal with the "bread and butter". As you can see your job does not change much. You usually see the same cases over and over. Sure everyonce in a while something strange might come around, but these cases are usually reffered to academic institutions.

but you know, division and specialization of labor revolves around repetitive work when it boils down to it. by doing the same things over and over you get really good at them, and eventually youre called an expert. docs who manage to become experts in such and such field or treatment end up making big money as experts, even if things get tedious. i think thats how some super specialized clinics operate, i read about it a little in "market driven healthcare". focused factories, they were called. they specialized in hernias or something. so yeah, thats pretty much all the docs did but they were smashing at it. imagine, if you see new things every day it might be invigorating, but hard too. i wouldnt want to be the new, novel patient. just a little devils advocate.

 

[CTSballer11]

but you know, division and specialization of labor revolves around repetitive work when it boils down to it. by doing the same things over and over you get really good at them, and eventually youre called an expert. docs who manage to become experts in such and such field or treatment end up making big money as experts, even if things get tedious. i think thats how some super specialized clinics operate, i read about it a little in "market driven healthcare". focused factories, they were called. they specialized in hernias or something. so yeah, thats pretty much all the docs did but they were smashing at it. imagine, if you see new things every day it might be invigorating, but hard too. i wouldnt want to be the new, novel patient. just a little devils advocate.

I agree with you here 100 percent. I have also heard of a center in canada that has surgeons who do nothing but hernia surgery and they have top notch results. Basically the point I was trying to make is that as a doctor in todays market you are forced to "specialize" in a certain subspecialty in your field. You kind of have to develop a niche and a reputation for handling certain cases to remain successful. As i was saying to a previous SDNer nowadays in medicine you continue to see the same cases over and over. I never said this was wrong, this is how it is and rightfully so.

 

[Blake]

Maybe it's less common in the USA, but I can assure you that the medical students here are the cream of the crop when it comes to academic performance. Of course there are brilliant folks who'd rather pursue mathematics or quantum physics and all that, but from my own experience, these guys are the minority. People with the best grades end up in med school. It's that simple, really. Now whether that's good or bad is another debate. Our med schools are basically full of the top 5 % college students, and there's lesser emphasis on extracurricular activities and more emphasis on pure academic performance, so there really is a brain drain. Like I said, I'm confident that most people in my class could easily become good PhDs in difficult scientifical fields, so I don't feel that we're inferior intellectualy to graduate students. I'd be more inclined to state the contrary actually, but I don't feel like debating with the entire SDN community on this. Feel free to disagree.

Honestly, and this isn't a personal attack to anybody in particular, I feel that most people are partly in medicine for the money, status, prestige, etc. Sure, that doesn't mean you're a complete bastard who hates people and can't interact with others, but if other fields were as attractive as the big M, there wouldn't be so much competition. But hey, as long as you treat your patients well and end up a decent doctor, I've got no issues with you, even if your main goal in life is to get the mansion, the luxury cars and the women (and yes, those goals are attainable with a MD, believe it or not) . Different folks, different strokes. Live and let live, my motto. But I honestly don't buy the BS most pre-meds give all the time and I consider med school interviews to be somewhat of a show and a farce, considering the amount of complete tools I've met in med school (regardless of how great those guys were during their interviews.) Extracurricular activities are done just because it looks great for interviews and you have something to talk about. It's REQUIRED ! No wonder people do this. How many graduate students do volunteering in their free time ? Definitely less than pre-meds. Are they less altruistic because of that ? Hell no. How many med students still volunteer ? Oops, they're too busy now. If this was required for residency, they'd all be volunteering left and right. Meh, the system sucks, and the sooner you realize it, the better it is for you and your sanity.

 

[Rendar5]

Maybe it's less common in the USA, but I can assure you that the medical students here are the cream of the crop when it comes to academic performance. Of course there are brilliant folks who'd rather pursue mathematics or quantum physics and all that, but from my own experience, these guys are the minority. People with the best grades end up in med school. It's that simple, really. Now whether that's good or bad is another debate. Our med schools are basically full of the top 5 % college students, and there's lesser emphasis on extracurricular activities and more emphasis on pure academic performance, so there really is a brain drain. Like I said, I'm confident that most people in my class could easily become good PhDs in difficult scientifical fields, so I don't feel that we're inferior intellectualy to graduate students. I'd be more inclined to state the contrary actually, but I don't feel like debating with the entire SDN community on this. Feel free to disagree.

Honestly, and this isn't a personal attack to anybody in particular, I feel that most people are in medicine for the money, status, prestige, etc. Sure, that doesn't mean you're a complete bastard that hates people and can't interact with others, but if other fields were as attractive as the big M, there wouldn't be so much competition. But hey, as long as you treat your patients well and end up a decent doctor, I've got no issues with you, even if your main goal in life is to get the mansion, the bentleys and the women. Different folks, different strokes. Live and let live, my motto. But I honestly don't buy the BS most pre-meds give all the time and I consider med school interviews to be somewhat of a show and a farce, considering the amount of complete tools I've met in med school (regardless of how great those guys were during their interviews.) Extracurricular activities are done just because it looks great for interviews and you have something to talk about. It's REQUIRED ! No wonder people do this. How many graduate students do volunteering in their free time ? Definitely less than pre-meds. Are they less altruistic because of that ? Hell no. How many med students still volunteer ? Oops, they're too busy now. If this was required for residency, they'd all be volunteering left and right. Meh, the system sucks, and the sooner you realize it, the better it is for you and your sanity.

if we're the cream of the crop, that certainly explains the state of things

 

[Blake]

if we're the cream of the crop, that certainly explains the state of things

English isn't my main language, so maybe I used the wrong expression. My bad. Care enough to explain what you meant by the current state of things ?

 

[odrade1]

I agree with you here 100 percent. I have also heard of a center in canada that has surgeons who do nothing but hernia surgery and they have top notch results. Basically the point I was trying to make is that as a doctor in todays market you are forced to "specialize" in a certain subspecialty in your field. You kind of have to develop a niche and a reputation for handling certain cases to remain successful. As i was saying to a previous SDNer nowadays in medicine you continue to see the same cases over and over. I never said this was wrong, this is how it is and rightfully so.

If boredom is a concern, you may want to avoid specializing. Specialization brings certain intellectual rewards (developing mastery of an area) & requires the intellectual stimulation of additional medical training. However, it does reduce the amount of variability in cases/patients you will treat. One of my goals is to work to preserve as high a degree of variation in cases/patients as possible.

This is part of why being a generalist (rather than a specialist) is intriguing to me, and why I am angling for a position that combines teaching, patient care, administrative responsibilities, and research. If I slow down my learning or end up doing the same 15-20 procedures each day, then I will probably die. The challenge of mastering those 15 procedures will remain interesting only for so long.

Fortunately, there is enough diversity of personality types in medicine, so others who look forward to that sort of life can achieve their desires as well.

 

[Rendar5]

English isn't my main language, so maybe I used the wrong expression. My bad. Care enough to explain what you meant by the current state of things ?

damnit, not a response i was hoping for. perhaps i was too ambiguous. :

state of country? state of our healthcare system?

 

[Jon Davis]

Read the comments by Lizzy and REL (adcom members) about the interviewee who said nothing to any other students the whole day. The kid has a 35 MCAT and 3.9 GPA but stared at the clock for a few minutes, stepped forward and stroke the brick wall. This is why the higher scored kids are not getting admitted and go into research and technology(READ NO PATIENT INTERACTION).

I agree with it wholeheartedly. An adcom member I was talking to told it to me this way: Which genius would you rather have in med school with you,
Albert Einstein or Vincent Van Gogh? (Assuming both are the ideal pre-med, high GPA 4.0 and high MCAT 40+)
The point is both were very intelligent and have been admired for decades after their deaths but it the difference is how they interact with others. Einstein was pretty much a hollywood type star in physics while Van Gogh, towards the end of his career, was a psycho to say the least (I wonder what cutting off his ear felt like, ouch!).

 

[Jon Davis]

but you know, division and specialization of labor revolves around repetitive work when it boils down to it. by doing the same things over and over you get really good at them, and eventually youre called an expert. docs who manage to become experts in such and such field or treatment end up making big money as experts, even if things get tedious. i think thats how some super specialized clinics operate, i read about it a little in "market driven healthcare". focused factories, they were called. they specialized in hernias or something. so yeah, thats pretty much all the docs did but they were smashing at it. imagine, if you see new things every day it might be invigorating, but hard too. i wouldnt want to be the new, novel patient. just a little devils advocate.

There is a doc in my area that pioneered laser eye surgery. Well, he specialized in that very heavily and he's making well over $1.5 mil a year. When it comes to laser eye surgery, most people go with the guy with the most experience, hence this guy. He's had celebrities, politicians, etc. as patients. Heavy specialization can provide a path for you to develop new stuff, in this case laser eye surgery which can be rewarding (esp. from a $ point of view).

Later.

 

[Shredder]

Maybe it's less common in the USA, but I can assure you that the medical students here are the cream of the crop when it comes to academic performance. Of course there are brilliant folks who'd rather pursue mathematics or quantum physics and all that, but from my own experience, these guys are the minority. People with the best grades end up in med school. It's that simple, really. Now whether that's good or bad is another debate. Our med schools are basically full of the top 5 % college students, and there's lesser emphasis on extracurricular activities and more emphasis on pure academic performance, so there really is a brain drain. Like I said, I'm confident that most people in my class could easily become good PhDs in difficult scientifical fields, so I don't feel that we're inferior intellectualy to graduate students. I'd be more inclined to state the contrary actually, but I don't feel like debating with the entire SDN community on this. Feel free to disagree.

Honestly, and this isn't a personal attack to anybody in particular, I feel that most people are partly in medicine for the money, status, prestige, etc. Sure, that doesn't mean you're a complete bastard who hates people and can't interact with others, but if other fields were as attractive as the big M, there wouldn't be so much competition. But hey, as long as you treat your patients well and end up a decent doctor, I've got no issues with you, even if your main goal in life is to get the mansion, the luxury cars and the women (and yes, those goals are attainable with a MD, believe it or not) . Different folks, different strokes. Live and let live, my motto. But I honestly don't buy the BS most pre-meds give all the time and I consider med school interviews to be somewhat of a show and a farce, considering the amount of complete tools I've met in med school (regardless of how great those guys were during their interviews.) Extracurricular activities are done just because it looks great for interviews and you have something to talk about. It's REQUIRED ! No wonder people do this. How many graduate students do volunteering in their free time ? Definitely less than pre-meds. Are they less altruistic because of that ? Hell no. How many med students still volunteer ? Oops, they're too busy now. If this was required for residency, they'd all be volunteering left and right. Meh, the system sucks, and the sooner you realize it, the better it is for you and your sanity.

this is a great cynical/realistic post. i always support telling it like it is. "cutting though the bs" at its finest