CWRU vs McGill

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I know this may be slightly outside many people's area of expertise, but this is a decision I must make. I welcome all those who do have an opinion to help me out if they like. Thanks!
NOTE: I am a citizen of both the US and Canada.

CWRU
Pros:
  1. Top 25 US MD school
  2. Excellent match list (understood that it includes CCLCM)
  3. Cleveland clinic! (ranked #2 hospital in US)
  4. Feel like I really fit with students, faculty, the whole place in general!
  5. Can do a masters within the four years for free (seriously considering Applied Anatomy)
  6. Received decent financial aid package (scholarship + small subsidized school loan + stafford)
  7. Love the curriculum and teaching style; IQ, HoloLens, Tuesday seminars, blocks, research time (but then again, I've not yet gone to med school... will this matter?)
  8. Cheap housing, and low cost of living
  9. Part of US MD system, I want to do residency and career in the US
Cons:
  1. Still quite expensive! (AAMC calculator predicts approx. 400-500k repayment)
  2. Cost of living would increase from my current situation
  3. Spouse would need to get licensed in OH and find a job
McGill
Pros:
  1. Excellent reputation in Canada and international (pretty much the top school in Canada)
  2. Good teaching hospitals (but still not the Cleveland Clinic...)
  3. I probably fit in pretty well
  4. Extremely cheap!!!! (6k CAD per year, unheard of!)
  5. Good curriculum, though maybe not as cool as Case
  6. Cheap housing and cost of living
  7. Low rate loans and lines of credit available
  8. Canadian benefits, health insurance, tax-shelters
  9. Spouse already has work in Montreal
Cons:
  1. McGill does not train to pass the step exams, question styles, etc.
  2. Will have to study for and write the step exams pretty much on my own (people do this though, and it works out)
  3. May not be so easy to match to US, risk of going unmatched (?)
  4. Won't learn much about US healthcare system in school (?)
  5. Can't do a masters concurrently
  6. Not particularly sure, curriculum and style might be more old-school, they don't advertise it much
As you can see, this question boils down mainly to money, and if I should take on huge loans to be in a top-25 US school vs a top Canadian one. I am also sure there will be some complications switching between the two systems, but I'm not sure how much that is worth financially.
EDIT: US school would entail loans with a principle of about 250k. McGill would be about 20k maximum.

Currently leaning towards McGill due to financial considerations.
Thanks for you opinions and insights! I am truly interested to see what you think!
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LargerGorilla said:
How much are these "complications" worth working out? $50,000? $500,000? I don't think you can go wrong either way.
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That's really my question, whether or not there exists a particular advantage to schooling in the states that would make it worthwhile. Thanks for opinion!
 
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Flashcard_Enthusiast said:
Why is this even a question lol? I voted for Case on the poll anyway. Personal bias ;)
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It's only a question since I want to hear if there is an advantage to doing med school in the states (if I wish to practice in the states as well) that would make it worthwhile to invest that much, or if McGill is just as fine for that. Thanks for voting!
 
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If you're 100% positive you want to only practice in the US, Case would probably be an easier match. At the same time, paying 400-500k for school compared to 24,000 CAD (what, ~18,500 USD for four years?) is no joke. Will Case give you any aid?

Also how the hell is tuition so cheap there?
 
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Dantes said:
If you're 100% positive you want to only practice in the US, Case would probably be an easier match. At the same time, paying 400-500k for school compared to 24,000 CAD (what, ~18,500 USD for four years?) is no joke. Will Case give you any aid?

Also how the hell is tuition so cheap there?
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Case offered a decent aid package, but it still costs. Tuition in Quebec is heavily subsidized by the government.
 
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gonnif said:
A US citizen attending McGill may fare well in the match BUT you have check yoursel the last few years of match data from the school. Also, the STEP is the first factor in matching consideration. In short, CWRU will open doors across the US; McGill is only a maybe. and all this worry over a single year of practice salary. Very short sighted in my view. get your a$$ to Cleveland
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Thanks for that, I am taking your opinion very seriously, as I always do!
Also, I have just been made aware that McGill was on probation by the LCME from 2015 to 2017, see here, and even now they still have issues with students being overworked on rotations and without proper support for students on rotations among other things, see here. Case, on the other hand, has a stellar record, including an accreditation with commendation from the ACCME in its continuing medical education program. How much do you think this actually matters in the long run? I just found this out now, and it would seem to my inexperienced self to be a big deal (McGill claims that students are not affected by this....). Thanks!
 
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YLA said:
Thanks, I appreciate! Just curious, is it possible to share a brief reason for your choice?
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McGill may be the best school in Canada but if you want to match into US residency and practice medicine in US, you should go to a US medical school. Also your pros/cons basically show you prefer Case more than McGill, so Case is likely a better fit for you.
 
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McGill easy. Your spouse is already there, Montreal is waaaay cooler than Cleveland, and the cost savings are insane. McGill has a great reputation. I don’t think you’ll have a problem matching. Do you speak French?
 
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Lawper said:
McGill may be the best school in Canada but if you want to match into US residency and practice medicine in US, you should go to a US medical school. Also your pros/cons basically show you prefer Case more than McGill, so Case is likely a better fit for you.
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I agree that I personally felt more at home at Case, and I really just liked the place overall. Thanks very much!!
 
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You should email McGill and ask to see match data, and ask them to put you in touch with American students. Could be crucial to your decision. If there’s no disadvantage in matching, McGill is the easy winner here
 
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shortcoatdream15 said:
McGill easy. Your spouse is already there, Montreal is waaaay cooler than Cleveland, and the cost savings are insane. McGill has a great reputation. I don’t think you’ll have a problem matching. Do you speak French?
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I speak a very rudimentary and halting french... I grew up in the US. My family is mostly in US. That's why I really want to go back eventually (or now...). Thanks very much for your thoughts, I appreciate it!
 
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shortcoatdream15 said:
You should email McGill and ask to see match data, and ask them to put you in touch with American students. Could be crucial to your decision. If there’s no disadvantage in matching, McGill is the easy winner here
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Great idea, I will do that, I'm sure it will help inform my decision. Thanks!
 
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The other thing to note is that McGill IS LCME accredited. This should mean there’s no matching disadvantage

As a final note: I wouldn’t call McGill a “top Canadian school,” id call it a “top school.” It’s internationally reputable across many fields and departments. Also, Montreal is an awesome city. Finally, that massive difference in loan burden is simply too good to pass up in my mind
 
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shortcoatdream15 said:
The other thing to note is that McGill IS LCME accredited. This should mean there’s no matching disadvantage
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Well, does matching depend on other factors as well? Such as PD familiarity with rotation supervisors, or training within the US healthcare system, or other factors?
 
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shortcoatdream15 said:
Oh I didn’t know about this. Yeah that throws a wrench into things, I’m not equipped to advise. Hard to say
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I mean, full accreditation has been reinstated indeterminately as of last summer, but I wonder if this would bother PDs in the US or not. It was mainly for administrative issues, but also for some student treatment issues on rotations....
 
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US PD's are not going to know, or care, about whether McGill is on LCME probation. In fact, I had no idea of this issue until you mentioned it here.

This is the type of question that has no wrong answer. You're going to have a fine career no matter which way you go. Regarding McGill, it's a well known school in Canada. Many PD's will likely have heard of it, but some may not. I expect that programs in New England will be much more likely to be familiar with it, simply because of geography.

From a practical standpoint, when programs are reviewing applications in ERAS, we use filters to break down the applications into groups. One filter is US grads, which separates out US MD's and DO's from the rest. Canadian grads is a separate filter. I expect that many programs look at canadian grads, but perhaps some competitive fields/programs might not. Or perhaps some new PD's might not realize that Canadian grads are not in the US Grad filter.

Somewhere along the line, McGill switched to a fully P/F curriculum, even in the clinical years. This makes it very difficult to assess graduates. Note that the Lerner COM at Case is similar. I find it vert difficult to assess candidates from these schools, my decisions tend to be more heavily weighted by USMLE scores or away rotations.

So, if you go to McGill, performing on your USMLE becomes more important, and then you will absolutely want to do US based rotations late in your 3rd or early in your 4th year. If you want to go into a very competitive field (NS, Ortho, Urology, Derm, etc) then you're probably better off at Case. If you think you want to do IM / FM / Anesthesia / EM / etc, then it probably doesn't matter.
 
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aProgDirector said:
US PD's are not going to know, or care, about whether McGill is on LCME probation. In fact, I had no idea of this issue until you mentioned it here.

This is the type of question that has no wrong answer. You're going to have a fine career no matter which way you go. Regarding McGill, it's a well known school in Canada. Many PD's will likely have heard of it, but some may not. I expect that programs in New England will be much more likely to be familiar with it, simply because of geography.

From a practical standpoint, when programs are reviewing applications in ERAS, we use filters to break down the applications into groups. One filter is US grads, which separates out US MD's and DO's from the rest. Canadian grads is a separate filter. I expect that many programs look at canadian grads, but perhaps some competitive fields/programs might not. Or perhaps some new PD's might not realize that Canadian grads are not in the US Grad filter.

Somewhere along the line, McGill switched to a fully P/F curriculum, even in the clinical years. This makes it very difficult to assess graduates. Note that the Lerner COM at Case is similar. I find it vert difficult to assess candidates from these schools, my decisions tend to be more heavily weighted by USMLE scores or away rotations.

So, if you go to McGill, performing on your USMLE becomes more important, and then you will absolutely want to do US based rotations late in your 3rd or early in your 4th year. If you want to go into a very competitive field (NS, Ortho, Urology, Derm, etc) then you're probably better off at Case. If you think you want to do IM / FM / Anesthesia / EM / etc, then it probably doesn't matter.
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That was a great post, thank you so much for the information and opinion! I truly appreciate it!
I don't see myself going into a very competitive field (age and family factors...), but I wouldn't really know that yet for sure. Thanks again!
 
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YLA said:
Oh wow, I thought I searched McGill's site but I didn't see that page! Very useful info, I truly appreciate!
Edit: Yeah, it is a bit dated, but quite useful nonetheless. I will ask McGill if they can supply me with updated info.
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No problem. Also, I believe Cornell and Case matched a student to McGill this year and Case even mentioned what an accomplishment that was, and how highly regarded/prestigious the institution is.
 
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If you don't mind me asking, why arn't you considering Feinberg? It looked like you got a fine package from them as well, and they are a defined Top-20 school. That might make debt even more worth it? Also, what if you were to get off the WL at some of the T20 Manhattan schools? Would you consider those? I feel all the schools I have mentioned have a greater reputation than case (albeit barely) and you also mention in some of your posts your desire to be in NYC.
 
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MDPedigree said:
If you don't mind me asking, why arn't you considering Feinberg? It looked like you got a fine package from them as well, and they are a defined Top-20 school. That might make debt even more worth it? Also, what if you were to get off the WL at some of the T20 Manhattan schools? Would you consider those? I feel all the schools I have mentioned have a greater reputation than case (albeit barely) and you also mention in some of your posts your desire to be in NYC.
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Those are good questions. While I really love Feinberg as well, I felt that I fit in better with both the students and the school at Case. I think my family would do better in Cleveland than in Chicago as well, just from the feelings I got from each city. Cost of living is also a consideration for me. Of course, if Chicago would be my only acceptance I would go there in a heartbeat, but now that I can choose, I just plain felt better about Case. Also, I don't think that the difference of 5 places in research money ranking will define my education, or my match potential...

For Manhattan schools, at this point I would consider Cornell, and perhaps NYU. I felt more drawn to Cornell,, but I really like both places. I think I will withdraw from Sinai though, just from the vibes I got. I am slightly conflicted about NYC; on the one hand I have family there, but on the other hand I have family there, if you know what I mean.... Each place has its strong points for me, now I just really have to choose what makes the most sense.

I have also left out some personal detail which I'm thinking now would probably make all of this make much more sense. If I really can't figure out my next steps, maybe I'll share some more in the hopes of gaining clarity.

Thanks very much!
 
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McGill is amazing, and is equivalent or better thab case western. You won't have any issues with residency by going to McGill.

The amazing reputation combined with lower cost would make it an easy choice for me.
 
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3toedsloth said:
McGill is amazing, and is equivalent or better thab case western. You won't have any issues with residency by going to McGill.

The amazing reputation combined with lower cost would make it an easy choice for me.
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Thanks very much! I appreciate it
 
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3toedsloth said:
McGill is amazing, and is equivalent or better thab case western. You won't have any issues with residency by going to McGill.

The amazing reputation combined with lower cost would make it an easy choice for me.
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And, I just noticed you're on WL at Case.....;) Don't worry, I'll make up my mind soon! I promise!
 
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honeybunchesofgoats said:
I'm in a similar boat- deciding between Pitt, Brown, and McGill with longterm goals to practice in the US
However, while the cheap tuition at McGill is a nice perk, I'm less concerned about the debts since those will certainly be paid off in this career path- I'm more concerned with screwing over my spouse's career options.

In addition to what you noted in your comparison, I've worked as a nurse for the last 4 years and have made lots of connections with McGill's teaching faculty & MDs here which could be valuable for research/rotations/recommendations. It's also much easier to stay in a city you're comfortable with and not have to go through the strain of moving.

On a slightly different note- some have told me to consider completing school & residency in Canada and then moving on to fellowship and career in the US after. Something different to consider.
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I tend to agree that the primary issue here is not the expense, as you say, although it is definitely not a completely negligible concern, and will also depend somewhat on individual situations.
Connections and networking are definitely valuable, I have come to learn that McGill students who successfully matched in the US have usually done multiple rotations in the US and worked to develop those connections and references early on.
You final point seems very probable as well, these are all very good points to consider in making this decision.

As I work through this question, two things are becoming clearer to me:
Firstly, in terms of education and residency opportunities alone, for those who want to eventually live in the US, it would usually make more sense to attend a US MD school, especially a "top-25" school. The cost is generally not a huge factor in the long run, and it will probably be much easier to do well on the step exams and go through the whole match process.
Second, in terms of spouse and family, it might make sense to remain in Montreal for four more years. This will be very different in every situation, and can drastically change the question.

Thank you very much, and best of luck to both of us in figuring this out!
 
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So to bring this to a close, and hopefully be of some use to someone in the future..

I ended up choosing McGill, because of family reasons. After much conversation and deliberation, I have come to think that from a financial point of view it would still make sense to invest in a US MD education, especially for someone who is single and/or can live on a tight budget. Although it is absolutely possible to match to a US residency from Canada, this does require a lot more effort than usual, and presents a somewhat greater risk of going unmatched. It is also possible to move to the US after a Canadian residency, but there may be specialty-specific issues. It would therefore appear that attending a US MD school would present the easiest and broadest path to any chosen residency (of course this depends on the individual too...), while the huge expense involved (total payback of 400 - 500k over 20 years or so) will eventually be covered with a US physician income.

However, there are other crucial factors to consider as well, as in my case where I am now convinced that the correct decision is for me to remain in Canada, with an eye toward a US residency or fellowship, eventually moving to the US to work (I have reasons why I would like to eventually live in the US, unrelated to physicians' salaries).

So, my advice to anyone else in this situation: First consider all factors in your decision besides expense; it is smaller than it seems at first. Generally, go for the US school, unless special circumstances dictate otherwise. Contact the schools and ask if they can put you in touch with M4s, to hear about country-specific challenges. Finally, think about expense...

I want to thank all of you here who have helped me with this decision, your input has been invaluable and I am truly grateful! And thank you SDN for being a wonderful resource!
 
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Nah you made the right choice for sure, don’t look back. You’ll have no problem matching, you’ll save $$$, and you’ll get to live and study in Montreal rather than Cleveland. Studying for step 1 while your classmates don’t have to will be tough for sure, but worth it
 
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YLA said:
So to bring this to a close, and hopefully be of some use to someone in the future..

I ended up choosing McGill, because of family reasons. After much conversation and deliberation, I have come to think that from a financial point of view it would still make sense to invest in a US MD education, especially for someone who is single and/or can live on a tight budget. Although it is absolutely possible to match to a US residency from Canada, this does require a lot more effort than usual, and presents a somewhat greater risk of going unmatched. It is also possible to move to the US after a Canadian residency, but there may be specialty-specific issues. It would therefore appear that attending a US MD school would present the easiest and broadest path to any chosen residency (of course this depends on the individual too...), while the huge expense involved (total payback of 400 - 500k over 20 years or so) will eventually be covered with a US physician income.

However, there are other crucial factors to consider as well, as in my case where I am now convinced that the correct decision is for me to remain in Canada, with an eye toward a US residency or fellowship, eventually moving to the US to work (I have reasons why I would like to eventually live in the US, unrelated to physicians' salaries).

So, my advice to anyone else in this situation: First consider all factors in your decision besides expense; it is smaller than it seems at first. Generally, go for the US school, unless special circumstances dictate otherwise. Contact the schools and ask if they can put you in touch with M4s, to hear about country-specific challenges. Finally, think about expense...

I want to thank all of you here who have helped me with this decision, your input has been invaluable and I am truly grateful! And thank you SDN for being a wonderful resource!
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Congrats on finally making your decision. Just curious, can a full fledged attending American Citizen Canadian trained MD walk right into the US and practice without redoing residency? For what it's worth, It's still going to be an uphill battle for you to do residency in the US.
 
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shortcoatdream15 said:
Nah you made the right choice for sure, don’t look back. You’ll have no problem matching, you’ll save $$$, and you’ll get to live and study in Montreal rather than Cleveland. Studying for step 1 while your classmates don’t have to will be tough for sure, but worth it
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Thanks, appreciate it! Helping me feel better ;)
 
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watermelon master said:
Congrats on finally making your decision. Just curious, can a full fledged attending American Citizen Canadian trained MD walk right into the US and practice without redoing residency?
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Absolutely! There are some details depending on the specialty and/or the state, such as writing USMLEs which many Canadians do anyhow for fellowship purposes, but most states and specialties require no further testing or residency years (as far as I know). Also, for some reason peds neurosurg in US seems to require a US education, but most aren't like that, and it also won't likely apply to me.

EDIT: You do need to have your qualifications evaluated in the state you wish to practice in, but pretty straightforward.
 
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watermelon master said:
For what it's worth, It's still going to be an uphill battle for you to do residency in the US.
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So yes, it is a bit harder to do US residency from Canada. PDs do filter out non-US grads, and other students who have done this told me you really have to be proactive about emailing programs to remind them of your interest and also of your equal eligibility as a US citizen in an LCME accredited school. People also tend to apply to way more programs than normal to ensure a competitive amount of interviews. Also, for very competitive specialties (eg optho, derm), it may not be realistic. Have to write all USMLE steps on our own, without being "trained" for that by the school. Moreover, 4th year away rotations at US programs of interest are absolutely essential, as it's all about whom you know and whom you get evals from...

As I said, can also move post-residency. If you do a fellowship in the US and get to make some professional connections, this may help with finding a job there afterward.
 
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Congrats on McGill!
Something I was surprised to learn about matching to the US as a Canadian grad is that you are automatically withdrawn from the US match if you match into a Canadian program. If you sign up for both CaRMS and ERAS, hypothetically, you could end up in a situation where an American derm program ranks you, but you match into a Canadian FM program, and thus have to go with the latter. If you would only like to practice in the US and find that you are in a strong position to match into a US program, I would recommend only applying through ERAS. Also, make sure that you inform the PDs that you are only applying through ERAS so they can be assured that your application won't mysteriously be withdrawn a week before the match.
 
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