D.O. Acceptance Statistics

[danimjo]

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So...I'm a returning member with a question about reapplying to D.O. School....

At one point in time I had accumulated a list of all the D.O. schools and what the average incoming GPA and MCAT scores were for their last incoming class...does anyone have these statistics for any of the D.O schools...or does anyone else have a similar list?

I know it takes forever to accumulate such a list, but it would be of such great help if you could share the info with me...

Thanks!

 

[Jpc984]

I would recommend using USNEWS online... You can easily type in the school you are interested and get stats more accurate than sdn. There is a file on sdn, but it is outdated.

 

[nlax30]

http://www.aacom.org/data/annualreport/

 

[Nasem]

the one thing I don't like about USNEWS.com is that their current stats are for entering class of 2005 ... it doesn't exactly reflect today's much heavier competition for med schools

 

[prionsRbad]

Yeah, the best place for current admissions stats is probably on each schools website.

Good Luck

 

[walla189]

I'm working on compiling a list right now, PM me and I'll send it to you.

 

[tony montana]

I'm working on compiling a list right now, PM me and I'll send it to you.

Why not just post it? 😕

 

[walla189]

Not done yet, I will post when its beautiful.

 

[sicko]

Sorry if it sounds harsh for some people out there, but I really think DO schools should raise the minimum mcat and gpa. I understand that DO schools are not gpa and mcat ****** and generally they do not put as much weight on the MCAT scores as they do the individual. But let's be truthful to ourselves, if the guy who is going to operate on you told you he got 23 or 24 on the MCAT, would you feel comfortable have him open up your body?

I understand that the DO application pool is much smaller and is therefore less competitive. Nevertheless, I think they need to do something to fix the current misconceptions about DO schools. "Low mcat scores? No problem. DO schools will take you. Low gpa? Not to worry. DO schools are happy to have you. No credit or bad credit? No problemo. DO is the answer."

That's my two cents. Constructive comments are welcome.

 

[Sk8er07]

But let's be truthful to ourselves, if the guy who is going to operate on you told you he got 23 or 24 on the MCAT, would you feel comfortable have him open up your body?

I honestly wouldn't care as long as their COMLEX and/or USMLE scores were competitive.

Think of it this way... do you think it would be fair if medical schools didn't accept students based on bad SAT scores? It is what they do during their 4 years of undergrad and how they do on their MCAT that matters for admission. Therefore whether or not you want someone to be your doctor should be based on his/her medical school performance and how well they did on his/her licensure exams... not on something they did before they even started studying medicine.

 

[Yourmother]

Sorry if it sounds harsh for some people out there, but I really think DO schools should raise the minimum mcat and gpa. I understand that DO schools are not gpa and mcat ****** and generally they do not put as much weight on the MCAT scores as they do the individual. But let's be truthful to ourselves, if the guy who is going to operate on you told you he got 23 or 24 on the MCAT, would you feel comfortable have him open up your body?

I understand that the DO application pool is much smaller and is therefore less competitive. Nevertheless, I think they need to do something to fix the current misconceptions about DO schools. "Low mcat scores? No problem. DO schools will take you. Low gpa? Not to worry. DO schools are happy to have you. No credit or bad credit? No problemo. DO is the answer."

That's my two cents. Constructive comments are welcome.

So do you have any data to suggest DOs as inferior, or are you just trolling?

 

[superfan56]

Sorry if it sounds harsh for some people out there, but I really think DO schools should raise the minimum mcat and gpa. I understand that DO schools are not gpa and mcat ****** and generally they do not put as much weight on the MCAT scores as they do the individual. But let's be truthful to ourselves, if the guy who is going to operate on you told you he got 23 or 24 on the MCAT, would you feel comfortable have him open up your body?

I understand that the DO application pool is much smaller and is therefore less competitive. Nevertheless, I think they need to do something to fix the current misconceptions about DO schools. "Low mcat scores? No problem. DO schools will take you. Low gpa? Not to worry. DO schools are happy to have you. No credit or bad credit? No problemo. DO is the answer."

That's my two cents. Constructive comments are welcome.

agree below. you think your training as a doctor is the MCAT? i wish it were that easy....it's the comlex/usmle scores that i care about

 

[Saregamapadanis]

But let's be truthful to ourselves, if the guy who is going to operate on you told you he got 23 or 24 on the MCAT, would you feel comfortable have him open up your body?

That's my two cents. Constructive comments are welcome.

I understand what you are saying, but not everyone who was accepted or chose to go to a DO school has a 24 or a 25 on the mcat. There are varying numbers going from numbers >35 on mcats. Those applicants who are accepted with low statistics have experience working in the health care field for a few years. For instance, some of these applicants are nurses, respiratory care therapists, anesthesiology technicians, speech language pathologists etc.

Also, there is always a chance that a person who has a 45T can become a terrible doctor. Once you get into medical school , your mcat score is irrelevant to your future success.

 

[sicko]

I understand what you are saying, but not everyone who was accepted or chose to go to a DO school has a 24 or a 25 on the mcat. There are varying numbers going from numbers >35 on mcats. Those applicants who are accepted with low statistics have experience working in the health care field for a few years. For instance, some of these applicants are nurses, respiratory care therapists, anesthesiology technicians, speech language pathologists etc.

Also, there is always a chance that a person who has a 45T can become a terrible doctor. Once you get into medical school , your mcat score is irrelevant to your future success.

Well said and I'm with you on that. But, unfortunately, a lot of patients don't feel that way and that is the reason why I think something must be done about it. And believe me, I've already started to do my part by explaining to friends and co-workers what DO is and why sometimes it's better to go to them. Good discussion though.

 

[lackoftalent]

Sorry if it sounds harsh for some people out there, but I really think DO schools should raise the minimum mcat and gpa. I understand that DO schools are not gpa and mcat ****** and generally they do not put as much weight on the MCAT scores as they do the individual. But let's be truthful to ourselves, if the guy who is going to operate on you told you he got 23 or 24 on the MCAT, would you feel comfortable have him open up your body?

I understand that the DO application pool is much smaller and is therefore less competitive. Nevertheless, I think they need to do something to fix the current misconceptions about DO schools. "Low mcat scores? No problem. DO schools will take you. Low gpa? Not to worry. DO schools are happy to have you. No credit or bad credit? No problemo. DO is the answer."

That's my two cents. Constructive comments are welcome.

I find this post a bit short-sighted. I believe you discount the fact that all MD/DOs must pass licensing examinations in order to practice. If an individual passes their examinations, (thus the state/fed gov't endorses the individual to be competent to practice medicine), what does it matter what they received on their MCAT? The MCAT is used as a PREDICTOR of licensing examination performance. It is not the exam itself. And, as it stands, it does not appear that DOs are having difficulty passing their licensing exams. Also, let's not forget about the rest of medical school, residency, etc. that each student must complete. There could be a slew of reasons why an individual's mcat and gpa are slightly lower completely unrelated to innate intelligence (which is not to endorse gpa and mcat as the sole predictors of intelligence).

That's my two cents...for what it's worth.

 

[DiverDoc]

LMAO. Since when has a patient said "exuse me doctor, can I see your MCAT score report".

 

[TexasTriathlete]

I could give two ****s about what my docs got on their MCAT, and I got a good MCAT score myself. The MCAT is a survey of pre-med coursework, and there could be any number of reasons that someone might not do well. Same for GPA:

1. Non-traditional student or non-science major. Not everyone is going to take a million upper-division science courses that will prep you for a 30+ on the MCAT. Some people take only the minimum pre-requisites and then go for it. DO schools love the non-trads.

2. People like me, who were not pre-meds from day one. I jacked around in college until I graduated. Then I decided to go to medical school, so I had to dig myself out of a big hole. I got in with a 2.7 GPA AFTER 80+ hours of 3.4+ in hard science coursework. I'm headed to GA-PCOM, and I'd put myself up against the average Emory student any day of the week. There are tons of people I know from pre-med studies who ended up at Baylor and UT-southwestern, and I know that I'm every bit their equal or better.

There is certainly something to be said for good stats, but they aren't necessarily everything.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Sorry if it sounds harsh for some people out there, but I really think DO schools should raise the minimum mcat and gpa. I understand that DO schools are not gpa and mcat ****** and generally they do not put as much weight on the MCAT scores as they do the individual. But let's be truthful to ourselves, if the guy who is going to operate on you told you he got 23 or 24 on the MCAT, would you feel comfortable have him open up your body?

I understand that the DO application pool is much smaller and is therefore less competitive. Nevertheless, I think they need to do something to fix the current misconceptions about DO schools. "Low mcat scores? No problem. DO schools will take you. Low gpa? Not to worry. DO schools are happy to have you. No credit or bad credit? No problemo. DO is the answer."

That's my two cents. Constructive comments are welcome.

Okay ... when I first read your post I was instantly going to rip you to pieces, throw out childish insults, etc etc ... but I would rather just address your points, as you did state them in a 'non-trolling,' logical manner (maybe I'm growing up ... who knows??)

First off ... minimum numbers don't really mean anything. Schools throw these out here as standard guidelines, but if you think about it ... what do they matter? Most DO schools have minimum numbers of overall gpa of 3.0, science 2.75 and MCAT 23 (those are just kinda taken from everywhere) ... but what do those matter? If you have average matriculation numbers of 3.6 and 28 MCAT (Western), what does it matter if your minimum cut off is a 3.0/23 or a 2.0/20 or anything else? Im almost positive MD schools have cutoff numbers as well, but the point is everyone knows that to get into a med school you need x gpa and x mcat, because those are the average numbers of people being accepted, not because they are the minimum cutoffs.

Also, you never truly know what causes people's averages. Some people may just have a mental block when it comes to the MCAT, or went to a super competitive undergrad school, had a family tragedy etc etc ...

Your reference to the MCAT and being on the operating table is completely 100% irrevelant (no offense). The MCAT in no way, shape, or form dictates the quality of the doctor you can become. It's a standardized test that involves a LOT of test taking ability/strategy ... not knowledge/skill of medicine. It's a good gauge of many things, but not of how well you will perorm as a doctor. Plus, 99% of the world has no idea what the MCAT is ... what a good/bad score would be, and I don't think any patient is going to ask about your MCAT score (not that you should hide it or anything ... its just not likely). It's like if you were in sales and before someone signed a deal with you they asked what you got on your GRE when applying for your MBA, and if it was too low they would move along. If you are a talented/good doctor, that is what matters. If the patient feels comfortable with the doctor ... that is what matters.

Your comment about DO schools taking anyone is just not true at all. If you are looking to spark that argument ... you need to post in the Carib/IMG section of the site. There was something on the board recently where a member broke down the raw numbers and basically 45% of applicants who applied to MD schools were accepted, and 45% of applicants who applied to DO schools were accepted. MCAT/GPA is not the only way to evaluate an applicant ... there are many other factors to consider, and luckily DO schools take this into account.

That is my honest/calm response ... if you are here to troll though, it won't go over well (just as a warning). Remember that you (as am I) are a pre-med student. You have never worked as a doctor in the real world, and have no idea what type of stigma exists for DOs. I believe if you ask most attendings/residents/med students ... they will say that once you reach that level, it doesn't matter. You are a doctor ... and if you work hard, you will be successful. The nit-picking over MCAT and undergrad GPA just doesn't exist in the real world ... hate to break it to you.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

When I'm a DO, am I going to have to pimp myself out as "DO, but got a 33 on the MCAT"?

 

[PatriotsForever]

Sorry if it sounds harsh for some people out there, but I really think DO schools should raise the minimum mcat and gpa. I understand that DO schools are not gpa and mcat ****** and generally they do not put as much weight on the MCAT scores as they do the individual. But let's be truthful to ourselves, if the guy who is going to operate on you told you he got 23 or 24 on the MCAT, would you feel comfortable have him open up your body?

I understand that the DO application pool is much smaller and is therefore less competitive. Nevertheless, I think they need to do something to fix the current misconceptions about DO schools. "Low mcat scores? No problem. DO schools will take you. Low gpa? Not to worry. DO schools are happy to have you. No credit or bad credit? No problemo. DO is the answer."

That's my two cents. Constructive comments are welcome.

Actually DO schools have an MCAT average one point lower then MD schools. Many DO students have MCATs higher than the typical MD students. Let me drop some knowledge on you: Many DO students are from states, like myself, who have no medical schools. They have stats that would most likely get them into most state schools but they dont have one. DO schools offer a good option for these types of students when many allopathic institutions show little love for OOS students. I know several people who went to my undergrad institution and had competitive allopathic stats but ended up at DO schools because we dont have an in state medical school. The gap statistically between DO and MD students is not as wide as you think with several DO schools having stats at or above the allopathic average. Now here comes the real shocker: nobody cares what your MCAT score was when your a surgeon or any other type of doctor. A 37 MCAT means absolutely nothing when your performing a quadruple coronary bypass surgery. Same goes for GPA. Schools use these to separate applicants and to determine who will be most successful in completing the basic sciences curriculum of the first two years of med school. These scores indicate very little about clinical success. To say someone is going to be a great doctor from a 5 hour test is absurd and if your going to base your criteria of great doctor from this test you may want to have your head examined. Ive been to several DO's and MD's for shadowing and health care purposes and would not know the difference in care received by either of them by merely observing them, it would take a look at the initials to determine any difference. You're getting the same health care by both DO's and MD's everywhere (although health disparities exist due to the lack of physicians in some areas). Recently my wife's OB-GYN retired and highly recommended the physician coming to take over his practice... he is a DO. He is excellent (I dont have to know his MCAT to see that!) and now all the doctors me and my family regularly see are DOs. Once your in med school the MCAT is irrelevant, get over it! The reason people become DOs is not nearly as simple as reading the statistics!

 

[nlax30]

When I'm a DO, am I going to have to pimp myself out as "DO, but got a 33 on the MCAT"?

I'm getting it embroidered on my white coat.

 

[Jpc984]

Me: Hello Doctor, before my check up, can I ask you what your MCAT score was?

Doctor: 29...

Me: Himm, below a 30. I have decided to go with another physician.

 

[scotchtapetest]

Sorry if it sounds harsh for some people out there, but I really think DO schools should raise the minimum mcat and gpa. I understand that DO schools are not gpa and mcat ****** and generally they do not put as much weight on the MCAT scores as they do the individual. But let's be truthful to ourselves, if the guy who is going to operate on you told you he got 23 or 24 on the MCAT, would you feel comfortable have him open up your body?

I understand that the DO application pool is much smaller and is therefore less competitive. Nevertheless, I think they need to do something to fix the current misconceptions about DO schools. "Low mcat scores? No problem. DO schools will take you. Low gpa? Not to worry. DO schools are happy to have you. No credit or bad credit? No problemo. DO is the answer."

That's my two cents. Constructive comments are welcome.

I am a premed who has been accepted to a DO school and would like to share the following FACTS that should shed some light on the issue:

-First Fact, I can personally name few allopathic schools that have lower GPA/MCAT averages than many osteopathic schools. However, I'm going to refrain from naming names, and if you are interested you can definitely look it up!

-Second Fact, DO schools have a LOWER acceptance rate compared to MD schools so technically speaking it's harder to get admitted to DO schools than to MD schools although the applicant pool is obviously different:

MD: 44%-47% (2006)
DO: 39.8% (2005)*

*I couldn't find updated data; however, this has been a consistent trend over the years.

Sources: http://premed.uark.edu/admission/criteria.html , http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/preprof.html

-Third Fact: the "average" MCAT scores for allopathic schools include students accepted to schools such as Harvard, Johns Hopkins, etc. (and we all know their MCAT scores), although I do not have concrete evidence supporting my conclusion, I bet if those students are excluded from the data pool (which statistically they should be excluded since they are relatively few students with relatively very high MCAT scores [the actual term is outlier]) average MCAT and GPA scores for both allopathic and osteopathic schools would be very comparable, if not equal, to one another.

 

[PatriotsForever]

I am a premed who has been accepted to a DO school and would like to share the following FACTS that should shed some light on the issue:

-First Fact, I can personally name few allopathic schools that have lower GPA/MCAT averages than many osteopathic schools. However, I’m going to refrain from naming names, and if you are interested you can definitely look it up!

-Second Fact, DO schools have a LOWER acceptance rate compared to MD schools so technically speaking it’s harder to get admitted to DO schools than to MD schools although the applicant pool is obviously different:

MD: 44%-47% (2006)
DO: 39.8% (2005)*

*I couldn’t find updated data; however, this has been a consistent trend over the years.

Sources: http://premed.uark.edu/admission/criteria.html , http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/preprof.html

-Third Fact: the “average” MCAT scores for allopathic schools include students accepted to schools such as Harvard, Johns Hopkins, etc. (and we all know their MCAT scores), although I do not have concrete evidence supporting my conclusion, I bet if those students are excluded from the data pool (which statistically they should be excluded since they are relatively few students with relatively very high MCAT scores [the actual term is outlier]) average MCAT and GPA scores for both allopathic and osteopathic schools would be very comparable, if not equal, to one another.

Perfect! Great info! DO and MD schools really are not that much different in terms of stats. In general, however, DO schools are much more likely to look past stats and evaluate life experiences much more critically.

 

[nlax30]

I am a premed who has been accepted to a DO school and would like to share the following FACTS that should shed some light on the issue:

-First Fact, I can personally name few allopathic schools that have lower GPA/MCAT averages than many osteopathic schools. However, I'm going to refrain from naming names, and if you are interested you can definitely look it up!

-Second Fact, DO schools have a LOWER acceptance rate compared to MD schools so technically speaking it's harder to get admitted to DO schools than to MD schools although the applicant pool is obviously different:

MD: 44%-47% (2006)
DO: 39.8% (2005)*

*I couldn't find updated data; however, this has been a consistent trend over the years.

Sources: http://premed.uark.edu/admission/criteria.html , http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/preprof.html

-Third Fact: the "average" MCAT scores for allopathic schools include students accepted to schools such as Harvard, Johns Hopkins, etc. (and we all know their MCAT scores), although I do not have concrete evidence supporting my conclusion, I bet if those students are excluded from the data pool (which statistically they should be excluded since they are relatively few students with relatively very high MCAT scores [the actual term is outlier]) average MCAT and GPA scores for both allopathic and osteopathic schools would be very comparable, if not equal, to one another.

I agree in that the acceptance rates are closer than some people think.

I think that the numbers they used to calculate the DO acceptance rate were slightly off.

Here's what I got from the AACOM and AAMC 2005 reports.
DO: 8258 applicants for ~3908 first year spots ---> ~47% acceptance
MD: 37,373 applicants for ~17,003 spots ---------> ~45% acceptance

AACOM's Annual Report: http://www.aacom.org/data/annualreport/
AAMC: Facts http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/start.htm

 

[scotchtapetest]

I agree in that the acceptance rates are closer than some people think.

I think that the numbers they used to calculate the DO acceptance rate were slightly off.

Here's what I got from the AACOM and AAMC 2005 reports.
DO: 8258 applicants for ~3908 first year spots ---> ~47% acceptance
MD: 37,373 applicants for ~17,003 spots ---------> ~45% acceptance

AACOM's Annual Report: http://www.aacom.org/data/annualreport/
AAMC: Facts http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/start.htm

I don't mean to get technical here the point is that acceptance rates are close to one another.

Having said that, and in the interest of full disclosure:

The AACOM's "number of applicants" only includes the folks using AACOMAS and does not include applicants applying to Texas College of Osteopathic medicine (TCOM) as their only osteopathic school since they use a different application service; However, they do include TCOM students in their enrollment numbers, which falsely increases their acceptance rate. On the other hand, AAMC does not discriminate against Texas applicant pool. So if one adds such applicants to osteopathic applicants their acceptance rate would actually be lower than their allopathic counterparts [maybe only by a couple of percentage points].
Sources: http://www.aacom.org/data/annualreport/ , http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/ , http://www.utsystem.edu/tmdsas/

 

[DrMidlife]

The "acceptance rate" is no such thing: it means total number of applicants against total number of seats. The DO "acceptance rate" needs to discount accepted DO non-matriculants who went MD instead, or it's not comparable to the MD number.

Yes, there are people who get in MD and DO and choose DO, but let's not be overly masturbatory about it. We know this is a minority.

 

[scotchtapetest]

The "acceptance rate" is no such thing: it means total number of applicants against total number of seats. The DO "acceptance rate" needs to discount accepted DO non-matriculants who went MD instead, or it's not comparable to the MD number.

Yes, there are people who get in MD and DO and choose DO, but let's not be overly masturbatory about it. We know this is a minority.

DrMidlife is correct to the extent that we have been using incorrect terminology; however, to my knowledge, all of the reported numbers [both allopathic and osteopathic] are ENROLLMENT Numbers/rates as reported by their respective application services!

 

[t-funk]

I agree with Dr Midlife in that this is not an acceptance rate, but rather an enrollment rate. I personally would argue that the acceptance rate, over the entire applicant pool, is very close to the enrollment rate for MD programs. However, although this information is not freely disclosed, I would have to assume that the acceptance rate at DO schools is much higher than the enrollment rate due to people choosing MD over DO. How much higher, I really have no idea how to find out. I think there is also an issue with stats in that MD schools will typically disclose matriculant stats while DO schools will typically disclose only acceptance stats. I think this is very misleading due to people with high stats getting many multiple acceptances and being included in multiple schools' averages and then possibly choosing an MD program. Don't get me wrong, I am not a proponent of higher GPA or higher MCAT = better doctor or better medical student in anyway. And I do think that DO schools will be much more forgiving to students who show tremendous potential but may not have the best stats which I am definitely in favor of. However, I think comparing stats is not as easy as it seems to be.

 

[DrMidlife]

DrMidlife is correct to the extent that we have been using incorrect terminology; however, to my knowledge, all of the reported numbers [both allopathic and osteopathic] are ENROLLMENT Numbers/rates as reported by their respective application services!

Don't let published data intimidate you. Always question what it means and whose interest it serves. There's no conspiracy here or anything fun or dramatic: just a lack of relevance in the only real sources of app stats. That goes for AACOM and AAMC and definitely TMDSAS.

There was a similar argument in pre-allo a while back about published instate vs. OOS numbers, and whether you can conclude anything about which state is the best for premed residency. Again, a complete lack of relevant numbers.

 

[scotchtapetest]

I agree with Dr Midlife in that this is not an acceptance rate, but rather an enrollment rate. I personally would argue that the acceptance rate, over the entire applicant pool, is very close to the enrollment rate for MD programs. However, although this information is not freely disclosed, I would have to assume that the acceptance rate at DO schools is much higher than the enrollment rate due to people choosing MD over DO. How much higher, I really have no idea how to find out. I think there is also an issue with stats in that MD schools will typically disclose matriculant stats while DO schools will typically disclose only acceptance stats. I think this is very misleading due to people with high stats getting many multiple acceptances and being included in multiple schools' averages and then possibly choosing an MD program. Don't get me wrong, I am not a proponent of higher GPA or higher MCAT = better doctor or better medical student in anyway. And I do think that DO schools will be much more forgiving to students who show tremendous potential but may not have the best stats which I am definitely in favor of. However, I think comparing stats is not as easy as it seems to be.

Maybe I wasn't quite clear last time and I apologize for that, as I stated previously all the numbers are actual enrolment rates/numbers NOT acceptances. Furthermore, the same way that people may be accepted at DO schools and MD schools, they may also be accepted at multiple MD schools. So, acceptance rates cannot be compared easily; but enrollment rates are very comparable.
I don't know of any school (DO or MD) that releases their acceptance stats. at least publicly (i'm not saying none do, I just don't know of any). Most schools (DO and MD) only disclose enrollment stats.

Again the point is that DO schools don't take anyone off the street as it was suggested earlier!

 

[DrMidlife]

And while we're at it, talking about published GPA and MCAT averages for DO schools, I got my Nova invite about 24 hours ago. In looking through the Nova threads, I absolutely have lower numbers than a number of folks who applied months earlier than I did and are still waiting. That's all the proof I need that DO schools look past the numbers.

 

[t-funk]

The reason why, as I explained in my last post, that I do not believe enrollment stats are comparable is bc I believe that DO schools lose a lot of the people they accept to MD schools. I do not believe that MD schools will lose a significant percentage of their acceptees to another professional program and the vast majority of those who are accepted to an MD program will enroll. It is not really appropriate to say that since both MD and DO schools have about a 40% enrollment rate but say, DO schools lose another, let's just say 20% for example, of the total acceptee pool to MD schools but MD schools lose virtually 0% of their total acceptees to another program that they are just as selective.

Oh, and since I do not have an MSAR, the only data I can get from my 2 in-state MD schools is their matriculant stats from their websites. I have never been able to find anything other than acceptance stats from any DO schools. These are two vastly different sets of numbers.

 

[t-funk]

I don't know of any school (DO or MD) that releases their acceptance stats. at least publicly (i'm not saying none do, I just don't know of any). Most schools (DO and MD) only disclose enrollment stats.

Here is an old post that breaks down published acceptance and enrollment raw numbers for DO schools from US News. You can get acceptance MCAT and GPAs for each individual school from most of their websites.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=4544379

 

[scotchtapetest]

The reason why, as I explained in my last post, that I do not believe enrollment stats are comparable is bc I believe that DO schools lose a lot of the people they accept to MD schools. I do not believe that MD schools will lose a significant percentage of their acceptees to another professional program and the vast majority of those who are accepted to an MD program will enroll. It is not really appropriate to say that since both MD and DO schools have about a 40% enrollment rate but say, DO schools lose another, let's just say 20% for example, of the total acceptee pool to MD schools but MD schools lose virtually 0% of their total acceptees to another program that they are just as selective.

Oh, and since I do not have an MSAR, the only data I can get from my 2 in-state MD schools is their matriculant stats from their websites. I have never been able to find anything other than acceptance stats from any DO schools. These are two vastly different sets of numbers.

I hate that we got off-subject but:

-First you can't just "say" something and then use numbers to support it. Yes you are right that we can assume that DO schools loose more students to MD than vice versa. As far as numbers go I don't know and if you don't have exact numbers, you don't know either!

Having said that, if you are talking about acceptance rate that argument is irrelevant because there are many people who have been accepted to multiple MD schools, hence, increasing the acceptance rate of MD schools (same goes for DO schools). So the only objective measures we have (which admittedly are not very good indicators) are ENROLLMENT rates and GPA/MCAT stats. Now I have argued that if you exclude the top medical schools and their students and then look at the data, objectively you can see that there is not much difference between DO and MD. Going back to the point that DO schools/students are in no shape academically inferior to their allopathic counterparts as it was suggested earlier and DO schools don't just accept everybody.

 

[t-funk]

I hate that we got off-subject but:

-First you can’t just “say” something and then use numbers to support it. Yes you are right that we can assume that DO schools loose more students to MD than vice versa. As far as numbers go I don’t know and if you don’t have exact numbers, you don’t know either!

Having said that, if you are talking about acceptance rate that argument is irrelevant because there are many people who have been accepted to multiple MD schools, hence, increasing the acceptance rate of MD schools (same goes for DO schools). So the only objective measures we have (which admittedly are not very good indicators) are ENROLLMENT rates and GPA/MCAT stats. Now I have argued that if you exclude the top medical schools and their students and then look at the data, objectively you can see that there is not much difference between DO and MD. Going back to the point that DO schools/students are in no shape academically inferior to their allopathic counterparts as it was suggested earlier and DO schools don’t just accept everybody.

I am very excited to be a part of the DO profession. I am ecstatic to learn OMM and to one day call myself a DO. This excites me and will one day make me very proud. I did, however, apply to 2 MD programs due to location and cost and would probably attend if accepted in order to save money and/or be close to family. I do find it ironic that you completely disregard my assertion that you can not compare enrollment statistics due to the very prevalent and well-known issue that a certain percentage of DO acceptees will choose to go MD bc I do not know an exact number which I was very explicit about. Then, in the next paragraph, you start to surmise that if you throw out all the ivy league 'outliers', which is somewhat preposterous to me as I would not consider such a large percentage of the medical student population to statistically be a group of outliers, that stats would be almost the same between state MD schools and DO schools without any numbers to back yourself up whatsoever. Yes, it is hard to get into a DO school and they will not accept just anyone, but it is typically even harder to get into an MD school. I think it is only fair to give credit when credit is due. I am in no way saying that DOs will be any lesser doctors or struggle any more with the boards or have poorer bedside manner.

Again, I reiterate, the MD schools that I have seen report MATRICULANT GPA and MCAT DATA and the DO schools that I have seen report ACCEPTANCE GPA and MCAT DATA. These are VASTLY different numbers as matriculant data will not include one person's stats in multiple schools' data but acceptance data will. The MATRICULANT data on my run of the mill average state allopathic school website is ~29 MCAT and ~3.7 GPA. The ACCEPTANCE data that I have seen for the highest stat (non-average) DO schools (DMU, Western, TCOM) are ~28 MCAT and ~3.6 GPA. Although these numbers look comparable, they are not because they are measuring two completely different things. This is in no way to say that DOs will not be GREAT doctors bc I believe they will be which is why I want to be one, but please let's just call a spade a spade.

 

[Beau Geste]

t-funk, I agree. The cost factor is what will give me cause to think about which school I plan on attending. The DO school is commutable, but the MD school is cheaper, by almost $20k a year in tuition alone. If I do end up having to make the choice soon, it's going to be tough.

 

[t-funk]

t-funk, I agree. The cost factor is what will give me cause to think about which school I plan on attending. The DO school is commutable, but the MD school is cheaper, by almost $20k a year in tuition alone. If I do end up having to make the choice soon, it's going to be tough.

If I have to make the choice, it will be very hard for me too. I will feel like a traitor.🙁

 

[Beau Geste]

If I have to make the choice, it will be very hard for me too. I will feel like a traitor.🙁

You shouldn't. You obviously see the equality in the degrees and can logically discuss the benefits/shortcomings of each. That's a very well-informed decision.

You can't feel bad about doing what's best for you, especially if it's sensible.

 

[t-funk]

You shouldn't. You obviously see the equality in the degrees and can logically discuss the benefits/shortcomings of each. That's a very well-informed decision.

You can't feel bad about doing what's best for you, especially if it's sensible.

Thanks. It is especially hard with such a bad housing market right now since the schools in Omaha are only about 45 miles away from me and I could commute and not have to worry about selling my home, at least for a couple years. It's all so complicated, but I'm sure you know that.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

After posting so much DO love, if you turn to MD now, God will probably give you cholera. Just so you know.

 

[scpod]

If I have to make the choice, it will be very hard for me too. I will feel like a traitor.🙁

You always should do what's best for you. I'm in a unique position because I'm a lot older (at 43 now) than most med students. I have quite a few good friends who are doctors that I've met through clubs, civic organizations, etc. and they all gave me very similar advice. Most of them have lived through rising costs and declining re-imbursements for years now. One big thing they told me was that if they were choosing a school now, they'd choose the cheapest one-- because you can get pretty much the same education anywhere. For most people, that is their in-state MD school.

In my case, my fiancee died suddenly during the med school interview process and I really wanted to get out of South Carolina and away from everything for a while. I was fortunate in that I fell in love with a school hundreds of miles away with tuition only about 5 grand a year higher than if I'd stayed at home. Due to the circumstances, it has definitely turned out to be the best choice for me. Think about those things that are gonna be the best for you too. Don't ever feel bad about doing that.

 

[t-funk]

In my case, my fiancee died suddenly during the med school interview process and I really wanted to get out of South Carolina and away from everything for a while.

I'm very sorry to hear that.

 

[t-funk]

I was fortunate in that I fell in love with a school hundreds of miles away with tuition only about 5 grand a year higher than if I'd stayed at home. Due to the circumstances, it has definitely turned out to be the best choice for me. Think about those things that are gonna be the best for you too. Don't ever feel bad about doing that.

The tuition at Bradenton is nearly impossible to beat, except for state schools. I'm glad that you are happy with your decision.

 

[t-funk]

After posting so much DO love, if you turn to MD now, God will probably give you cholera. Just so you know.

God smites me every day for living in sin, what's a little cholera gonna do? 😀

 

[scpod]

3 words: rice water stools ewwwwwwwwwww

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Cholera can cause you to diarrhea yourself to death. Seriously.

 

[MaximusD]

Well said and I'm with you on that. But, unfortunately, a lot of patients don't feel that way and that is the reason why I think something must be done about it. And believe me, I've already started to do my part by explaining to friends and co-workers what DO is and why sometimes it's better to go to them. Good discussion though.

I doubt that patients, in general, are even aware of the MCAT's existence.

 

[MaximusD]

You always should do what's best for you. I'm in a unique position because I'm a lot older (at 43 now) than most med students. I have quite a few good friends who are doctors that I've met through clubs, civic organizations, etc. and they all gave me very similar advice. Most of them have lived through rising costs and declining re-imbursements for years now. One big thing they told me was that if they were choosing a school now, they'd choose the cheapest one-- because you can get pretty much the same education anywhere. For most people, that is their in-state MD school.

In my case, my fiancee died suddenly during the med school interview process and I really wanted to get out of South Carolina and away from everything for a while. I was fortunate in that I fell in love with a school hundreds of miles away with tuition only about 5 grand a year higher than if I'd stayed at home. Due to the circumstances, it has definitely turned out to be the best choice for me. Think about those things that are gonna be the best for you too. Don't ever feel bad about doing that.

😱 I'm sorry.

My fiance broke up with me before med school and I thought it was gonna be the end of the world... You sure put things in perspective😳

Good advice. 👍

 

[scotchtapetest]

I am very excited to be a part of the DO profession. I am ecstatic to learn OMM and to one day call myself a DO. This excites me and will one day make me very proud. I did, however, apply to 2 MD programs due to location and cost and would probably attend if accepted in order to save money and/or be close to family. I do find it ironic that you completely disregard my assertion that you can not compare enrollment statistics due to the very prevalent and well-known issue that a certain percentage of DO acceptees will choose to go MD bc I do not know an exact number which I was very explicit about. Then, in the next paragraph, you start to surmise that if you throw out all the ivy league 'outliers', which is somewhat preposterous to me as I would not consider such a large percentage of the medical student population to statistically be a group of outliers, that stats would be almost the same between state MD schools and DO schools without any numbers to back yourself up whatsoever. Yes, it is hard to get into a DO school and they will not accept just anyone, but it is typically even harder to get into an MD school. I think it is only fair to give credit when credit is due. I am in no way saying that DOs will be any lesser doctors or struggle any more with the boards or have poorer bedside manner.

Again, I reiterate, the MD schools that I have seen report MATRICULANT GPA and MCAT DATA and the DO schools that I have seen report ACCEPTANCE GPA and MCAT DATA. These are VASTLY different numbers as matriculant data will not include one person's stats in multiple schools' data but acceptance data will. The MATRICULANT data on my run of the mill average state allopathic school website is ~29 MCAT and ~3.7 GPA. The ACCEPTANCE data that I have seen for the highest stat (non-average) DO schools (DMU, Western, TCOM) are ~28 MCAT and ~3.6 GPA. Although these numbers look comparable, they are not because they are measuring two completely different things. This is in no way to say that DOs will not be GREAT doctors bc I believe they will be which is why I want to be one, but please let's just call a spade a spade.

I’m glad that we agree to the extent that DO schools do not just accept anybody. But no matter how many times I state and emphasize that my numbers are enrollment data, I guess you are going to say they are not so…. (go to http://www.aacom.org/).

I also acknowledged the fact that more students accepted at DO schools will transfer to MD schools than vice versa. However, that’s irrelevant because lot of student hold multiple acceptances at MD schools, hence, increasing the acceptance rate of MD schools as a whole (same goes for DO schools). So enrollment data is the only data that can be objectively/statistically compared.

As stated previously I can personally name few MD schools, especially in the south, that have lower MCAT/GPA stats. than many DO schools. I’m not going to name them, but you can certainly research it.

I guess if you consider less than 10% (not an exact number but a fairly good estimate) of medical students who have very high MCAT/GPA scores “a large percentage” of medical students then you can’t exclude them, but most people don’t consider ~10% to be large and for the sake of comparison between MD and DO it would be statistically safe to exclude them!