D.O and surgery residencies please help!!!

[mterp45]

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Hey am contemplating applying to both Do and MD for I just want to practice medicine.This is where the problem lies, I just want to have a fiar shot at landing a surgery residency, will my chances be depleted if I go to a DO school? I would hate for two letters after my name to be a determining factor when it comes time for residencies. Please help any insight will be greatly appreciated,

 

[MossPoh]

Apply to both. In the end your performance will determine your fate. There are DO surgery residencies, and you can apply to allopathic as well. At this point, you are so early in your education you should just focus on getting in first. Apply to the schools you think you will like regardless of the letters. Your mind will probably change once you hit clinicals, so don't base everything solely on your speciality goal now.

 

[mterp45]

Apply to both. In the end your performance will determine your fate. There are DO surgery residencies, and you can apply to allopathic as well. At this point, you are so early in your education you should just focus on getting in first. Apply to the schools you think you will like regardless of the letters. Your mind will probably change once you hit clinicals, so don't base everything solely on your speciality goal now.

thanks

 

[AwesomO]

Apply both but if your end goal is surgery then consider going to the allopathic school if you get accepted to both. Reason being that an average allopathic applicant will match somewhere where as an outstanding osteopathic applicant still has a chance of not matching. Of course this is speaking only for allopathic programs. Of course you have a good shot at osteopathic programs but I would go in assuming you want to go to an allopathic residency simply because there are more of them and you don't know what your life situation dictate at the time of residency. ie will you need to live in a certain region of the country for family or what not.

 

[PlasticMan]

Apply both but if your end goal is surgery then consider going to the allopathic school if you get accepted to both. Reason being that an average allopathic applicant will match somewhere where as an outstanding osteopathic applicant still has a chance of not matching. Of course this is speaking only for allopathic programs. Of course you have a good shot at osteopathic programs but I would go in assuming you want to go to an allopathic residency simply because there are more of them and you don't know what your life situation dictate at the time of residency. ie will you need to live in a certain region of the country for family or what not.

👍

 

[Meatwad]

👍

Are you gunning for integrated Plastics? If so, more power to you, dude; you'd probably be the first DO to get in, which would make it even more impressive.

 

[PlasticMan]

Are you gunning for integrated Plastics? If so, more power to you, dude; you'd probably be the first DO to get in, which would make it even more impressive.

I was... that is until I looked at the statistics. Realistically, the shot at landing an integrated plastics as a DO is nearly impossible; I'm not even sure if anyone has done it before. I would LOVE to land an integrated spot, but sometimes ya gotta face reality. And reality says the best chance I have is GS then a fellowship.

 

[medhacker]

Are you gunning for integrated Plastics? If so, more power to you, dude; you'd probably be the first DO to get in, which would make it even more impressive.

It has already been done by a DO

 

[HCE]

I was... that is until I looked at the statistics. Realistically, the shot at landing an integrated plastics as a DO is nearly impossible; I'm not even sure if anyone has done it before. I would LOVE to land an integrated spot, but sometimes ya gotta face reality. And reality says the best chance I have is GS then a fellowship.

PCOM has a Plastics residency....its impossible to land a position there from an allopathic school.

 

[beastmaster]

It has already been done by a DO

not yet

 

[medhacker]

not yet

Read again

It has (past) been done already

 

[Meatwad]

Read again

It has (past) been done already

Evidence needed. I've never heard of anyone doing it. If you know them personally, PM me. I'll give you my e-mail in the PM, and you can contact the Integrated Plastics DO and have him/her e-mail. I'd be interested in his/her story.

But until then, I don't buy it. In 2007, the match rate for US MD seniors was 78%. Mean of 241 on Step 1. 36% are AOA (which many programs screen for, so they say in the plastics forum, thereby automatically rejecting DOs and IMGs from an already limited pool of programs), have publications, etc. 60% of those who matched came from a Top-40 NIH research med school. I honestly don't see how a DO could compete with that, short of their mother or father being a huge benefactor (I mean massive amounts of dough here), being the PD, or having a 280 on Step 1.

 

[Meatwad]

I was... that is until I looked at the statistics. Realistically, the shot at landing an integrated plastics as a DO is nearly impossible; I'm not even sure if anyone has done it before. I would LOVE to land an integrated spot, but sometimes ya gotta face reality. And reality says the best chance I have is GS then a fellowship.

Do you know if they restrict the PCOM fellowship route to those who did an osteopathic GS residency? Or, can a DO do an allopathic GS residency, then apply to PCOM's fellowship? This seems like a gray area sometimes, and I'm not sure if there are any hard and fast rules.

 

[medhacker]

Evidence needed. I've never heard of anyone doing it. If you know them personally, PM me. I'll give you my e-mail in the PM, and you can contact the Integrated Plastics DO and have him/her e-mail. I'd be interested in his/her story.


But until then, I don't buy it. In 2007, the match rate for US MD seniors was 78%. Mean of 241 on Step 1. 36% are AOA (which many programs screen for, so they say in the plastics forum, thereby automatically rejecting DOs and IMGs from an already limited pool of programs), have publications, etc. 60% of those who matched came from a Top-40 NIH research med school. I honestly don't see how a DO could compete with that, short of their mother or father being a huge benefactor (I mean massive amounts of dough here), being the PD, or having a 280 on Step 1.

The fact that a good percentage of applicants accepted to integrated or combined PRS programs have AOA does not mean that those that do not have it do not match.


Don't buy it if you don't want to, but never say no one told you so, and no, this surgeon's mother, father, uncle etc did not dish out cash for it, and no, I am not setting up a web chat for you both to meet so you can believe me

I fulfilled my social service letting you know it has happened.


BTW, this surgeon has published in PRS and other fine PRS journals while doing the integrated residency. Best wishes!

 

[Meatwad]

Can you PM their name? I'm interested in looking them up on PubMed. I have a healthy amount of skepticism, which I don't think is unfounded. Where did you learn about this person? If you don't want to give me their name (although I don't see a reason you wouldn't), please at least let me know how I can find them myself (google a certain string of words, etc.).

 

[PlasticMan]

PCOM has a Plastics residency....its impossible to land a position there from an allopathic school.

NYCOM has also been approved this past year to open a plastics spot; however, all the DO spots including these two are fellowships, not integrated.

 

[Meatwad]

The fact that a good percentage of applicants accepted to integrated or combined PRS programs have AOA does not mean that those that do not have it do not match.

That's true, but let's say there are 98 PRS programs, and 50% of them screen for AOA. That means 49 programs are attainable by DOs and IMGs. So, considering that you are already stigmatized to an extent by the old-boy world of plastic surgery, would it work in your favor that your pool of programs you have a shot at decreases? Not at all. Therefore, not having AOA does't mean you can't match, but it greatly decreases your chances of matching.

 

[Meatwad]

NYCOM has also been approved this past year to open a plastics spot; however, all the DO spots including these two are fellowships, not integrated.

Maybe we can start an interest group pressuring hospitals with osteopathic residencies to create an integrated plastics residency strictly for DOs. Would be interesting to try and justify it, what with the need for primary care doctors throughout the country, though.

 

[medhacker]

Do you know if they restrict the PCOM fellowship route to those who did an osteopathic GS residency? Or, can a DO do an allopathic GS residency, then apply to PCOM's fellowship? This seems like a gray area sometimes, and I'm not sure if there are any hard and fast rules.

Not too shady,

ACOS will not certify a DO fellowship unless previous residency work is AOA-approved, and we are not talking resolution 42 type of approval.

 

[mterp45]

Apply both but if your end goal is surgery then consider going to the allopathic school if you get accepted to both. Reason being that an average allopathic applicant will match somewhere where as an outstanding osteopathic applicant still has a chance of not matching. Of course this is speaking only for allopathic programs. Of course you have a good shot at osteopathic programs but I would go in assuming you want to go to an allopathic residency simply because there are more of them and you don't know what your life situation dictate at the time of residency. ie will you need to live in a certain region of the country for family or what not.

great advice, I was all ears on that one thankyou

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

http://www.osteopathic.org/pdf/lcl_optirepresidentcomparison.pdf
https://www.do-online.org/files/optitraining.pdf

These are graphs showing the number of DO's in osteopathic and allopathic residencies. This thread seemed like it needed some data.

 

[Meatwad]

http://www.osteopathic.org/pdf/lcl_optirepresidentcomparison.pdf
https://www.do-online.org/files/optitraining.pdf

These are graphs showing the number of DO's in osteopathic and allopathic residencies. This thread seemed like it needed some data.

Excellent. Thanks for the references, vegas. That shows at least a small handful of DOs have gotten into a true plastics residency, not fellowship, from 1996-2005. Very encouraging (although it's still an insanely small number, at least you wouldn't be trailblazing). I stand (pleasantly) corrected.

 

[jzeidenb]

http://www.osteopathic.org/pdf/lcl_optirepresidentcomparison.pdf
https://www.do-online.org/files/optitraining.pdf

These are graphs showing the number of DO's in osteopathic and allopathic residencies. This thread seemed like it needed some data.

looking at that first link, it looked like for almost all the specialties that there were less residents than spaces available? for plastics, for opthalmology, for orthopedics, and so on, is this actually the case? i cant imagine it being so. maybe im reading this wrong?

 

[beastmaster]

I fulfilled my social service letting you know it has happened.

BTW, this surgeon has published in PRS and other fine PRS journals while doing the integrated residency. Best wishes!

Fulfilling a social service? You're either holding back information on purpose, or lying. Both a disservice.

So stop this cryptic bs. I remember this being discussed previously and you were equally cryptic. Either provide the name, residency program, or shut up already. It's incredibly annoying.

 

[Meatwad]

Indeed, it would be quite helpful for future plastics applicants to know which programs have historically taken DOs before. You could provide us with that info, medhacker. It'd be appreciated by all.

 

[Lamborghini1315]

I am aspiring to be a surgeon as well, but here's what i think more osteopathic residencies will open up in the future and also remember the allopathic programs in certain areas of the country are more receptive to DO's over others. It really depends on your lifestyle and your willingness to compromise..honestly i care more about matching at a surgical program than other factors..but that's just me.I understand people have kids and other factors that play a role..but end of the day if you do well on the USMLE's and COMLEX..the world's yours. Its never too early to start your preparation..do some kinda of board preparation as early as possible in med school, i believe it will pay off. Good luck everyone!

 

[jzeidenb]

I am aspiring to be a surgeon as well, but here's what i think more osteopathic residencies will open up in the future and also remember the allopathic programs in certain areas of the country are more receptive to DO's over others. It really depends on your lifestyle and your willingness to compromise..honestly i care more about matching at a surgical program than other factors..but that's just me.I understand people have kids and other factors that play a role..but end of the day if you do well on the USMLE's and COMLEX..the world's yours. Its never too early to start your preparation..do some kinda of board preparation as early as possible in med school, i believe it will pay off. Good luck everyone!

i was under the impression that many MD residencies accept COMLEX, is this true or not

 

[Meatwad]

i was under the impression that many MD residencies accept COMLEX, is this true or not

Maybe some, but I doubt any competitive one (surgical subspecialties, dermatology, ophthalmology, etc.) would take you with a strong USMLE score.

 

[jzeidenb]

Maybe some, but I doubt any competitive one (surgical subspecialties, dermatology, ophthalmology, etc.) would take you with a strong USMLE score.

The dean at kcumb made t sound like this wasn't the case. He said 99% of residnecies would take your comlex and that the other 1% probably wouldn't take you at all either way, and his opinion was why would you want to go to a residency that doesn't recognize your degree. I very specifically remember these comments.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

The dean at kcumb made t sound like this wasn't the case. He said 99% of residnecies would take your comlex and that the other 1% probably wouldn't take you at all either way, and his opinion was why would you want to go to a residency that doesn't recognize your degree. I very specifically remember these comments.

He is telling you that simply because that is the old party line that folks like him must propagate. Most residencies probably do take the COMLEX; however you must realize that of the total number of residencies, there are many more noncompetitive fields like FP and peds that do take the COMLEX that there are competitive spots that may not. Generally, to be competitive for something like surgery or its subspecialties, rads, optho, etc you need the USMLE. it's the old apples to oranges debate.

I chose to take all 3 Steps of the USMLE (I had the first 2 scores in hand during residency interviews). A number of PD's/interviewers told me that taking the USMLE was the best thing that I ever did. I know that they weighed heavily in my program accepting me. Does that mean they discriminate against me or treat me differently because they want USMLE in addition to COMLEX, heck no. That is a load of BS that has no basis in reality.

 

[Hiram Coggin]

Evidence needed. I've never heard of anyone doing it. If you know them personally, PM me.

.

 

[jzeidenb]

He is telling you that simply because that is the old party line that folks like him must propagate. Most residencies probably do take the COMLEX; however you must realize that of the total number of residencies, there are many more noncompetitive fields like FP and peds that do take the COMLEX that there are competitive spots that may not. Generally, to be competitive for something like surgery or its subspecialties, rads, optho, etc you need the USMLE. it's the old apples to oranges debate.

I chose to take all 3 Steps of the USMLE (I had the first 2 scores in hand during residency interviews). A number of PD's/interviewers told me that taking the USMLE was the best thing that I ever did. I know that they weighed heavily in my program accepting me. Does that mean they discriminate against me or treat me differently because they want USMLE in addition to COMLEX, heck no. That is a load of BS that has no basis in reality.

isnt the usmle essentially the same test? so if u study for one u studied for the other (cept for omt section id imagine), so taking both isnt as bad as it sounds?

 

[PlasticMan]

isnt the usmle essentially the same test? so if u study for one u studied for the other (cept for omt section id imagine), so taking both isnt as bad as it sounds?

Eh, not so much. USMLE is a better and harder test from what I hear. More biochem for example. I have not taken the test, so this is only what I gather on here.

 

[Saregamapadanis]

I don't have much knowledge in this matter, so please enlighten me.

Lets say you do well in USMLE and you do well in COMLEX, then will you still be discriminated against (because of the D.O. degree) when going into a competitive residency like surgery?

 

[jzeidenb]

Eh, not so much. USMLE is a better and harder test from what I hear. More biochem for example. I have not taken the test, so this is only what I gather on here.

well i heard more biochem was the only difference

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

Eh, not so much. USMLE is a better and harder test from what I hear. More biochem for example. I have not taken the test, so this is only what I gather on here.

One of my biochem profs who taught at a USMD school said the comlex was more advanced because it was mostly clinical. Whereas the USMLE was more of "what enzyme is in this random obscure pathway". Anyhow, if you know your stuff you should do well on both.

 

[PlasticMan]

I don't have much knowledge in this matter, so please enlighten me.

Lets say you do well in USMLE and you do well in COMLEX, then will you still be discriminated against (because of the D.O. degree) when going into a competitive residency like surgery?

Very possibly depending on the program if it is an ACGME residency. Remember that DOs also have their own surgical residencies and fellowships as well. Of course it's possible to get into an ACGME surgical residency, but if two candidates with identical stats/personalities were applying one with an MD and one with a DO, I doubt anyone would argue that the MD applicant would get the position.

 

[Lamborghini1315]

isnt the usmle essentially the same test? so if u study for one u studied for the other (cept for omt section id imagine), so taking both isnt as bad as it sounds?

I will take them both next year, but from what i hear USMLE test questions are well written contrary to COMLEX questions, this doesn't mean one's harder than the other..it simply is a question of which one would you feel will not confuse you more. Anyways, my plan of action is to take step 1 of USMLE's and obviously take all the comlex tests. USMLE step1 is good enough for DO's to validate their case to any residency program in the country. I know quite a few on SDN who have done well on both tests..i guess there's a direct correlation. The answer to your question is yes, taking both tests wouldn't be as bad..the material on both tests are similar excluding OMT.

 

[Lamborghini1315]

Very possibly depending on the program if it is an ACGME residency. Remember that DOs also have their own surgical residencies and fellowships as well. Of course it's possible to get into an ACGME surgical residency, but if two candidates with identical stats/personalities were applying one with an MD and one with a DO, I doubt anyone would argue that the MD applicant would get the position.

I don't quite agree..i suppose that was the situation early 70's, 80's, if you have an USMLE score that is equally competitive as your fellow MD colleagues, you have an equal shot at any program. Hypothetically if you feel like you could have gotten in a program cause you obviously have the stats and then don't..the reasons why don't usually boil down to MD versus DO...other factors such as have you auditioned there during rotations, recommendation letters, research blah blah..i think on the grounds of an equal USMLE score and a competitive comlex score along with it..your chances are good anywhere.

 

[PlasticMan]

I don't quite agree..i suppose that was the situation early 70's, 80's, if you have an USMLE score that is equally competitive as your fellow MD colleagues, you have an equal shot at any program. Hypothetically if you feel like you could have gotten in a program cause you obviously have the stats and then don't..the reasons why don't usually boil down to MD versus DO...other factors such as have you auditioned there during rotations, recommendation letters, research blah blah..i think on the grounds of an equal USMLE score and a competitive comlex score along with it..your chances are good anywhere.

For integrated PRS? Are you kidding?

 

[Arch Guillotti]

He must be kidding - actually maybe he lives in a separate parallel universe from ours.

I have taken 5 of the 6 licensing exams. The USMLE all around is a much better test. COMLEX questions are very poorly written while the USMLE often tests 3rd or 4th level knowledge of a particular topic. Although it has been a while since I took the first part of each, for me USMLE had a lot of biochem. COMLEX had NONE. USMLE also had more cellular and molecular biology, genetics and biostatistics.

Lots of people do about the same on the tests. I took USMLE I with two people. All of us passed the COMLEX but I was the only one to pass the USMLE (although I admittedly didn't do great). I did much better of parts 2/3 of the exams. We all got into allopathic programs and we are all doing fellowships, the two that failed are doing very competitive ones ironically.

 

[Saregamapadanis]

So you are saying even if you score unbelievably high on USMLE and COMLEX, getting into a competitive residency has so many dimensions that you really can't say whether you get into it or not, whether D.O. or M.D.?

I have to ask, and I know its a naive question: There is a chance to become a successful surgeon if you are a D.O. right? I mean the doors to ACGME surgical residencies are not closed to you completely.

 

[PlasticMan]

So you are saying even if you score unbelievably high on USMLE and COMLEX, getting into a competitive residency has so many dimensions that you really can't say whether you get into it or not, whether D.O. or M.D.?

I have to ask, and I know its a naive question: There is a chance to become a successful surgeon if you are a D.O. right? I mean the doors to ACGME surgical residencies are not closed to you completely.

Of course! I personally know a DO plastic surgeon in NYC. I'm sure this topic has been discussed much already. Do some searches.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

So you are saying even if you score unbelievably high on USMLE and COMLEX, getting into a competitive residency has so many dimensions that you really can't say whether you get into it or not, whether D.O. or M.D.?

I have to ask, and I know its a naive question: There is a chance to become a successful surgeon if you are a D.O. right? I mean the doors to ACGME surgical residencies are not closed to you completely.

Surgery has a lot of old schoolers. Of course it's not impossible, you just have more of an uphill battle.

 

[Lamborghini1315]

For integrated PRS? Are you kidding?

Well there are always exceptions, i was trying to speak on a broader scale..things have gotten much easier for DO's now than DO's in the past.

 

[PlasticMan]

Well there are always exceptions, i was trying to speak on a broader scale..things have gotten much easier for DO's now than DO's in the past.

In your previous post you wrote,

I don't quite agree..i suppose that was the situation early 70's, 80's, if you have an USMLE score that is equally competitive as your fellow MD colleagues, you have an equal shot at any program. Hypothetically if you feel like you could have gotten in a program cause you obviously have the stats and then don't..the reasons why don't usually boil down to MD versus DO...other factors such as have you auditioned there during rotations, recommendation letters, research blah blah..i think on the grounds of an equal USMLE score and a competitive comlex score along with it..your chances are good anywhere.

Anywhere encompasses all programs including highly competitive ones like integrated PRS. Do you agree that a DO applicant would have a much harder time acquiring an integrated PRS spot than an MD applicant? The point is there are still biases, especially in old school things like surgery. If you're sure you want surgery from the beginning, go to an allo school if you get in.

 

[Lamborghini1315]

In your previous post you wrote,

Anywhere encompasses all programs including highly competitive ones like integrated PRS. Do you agree that a DO applicant would have a much harder time acquiring an integrated PRS spot than an MD applicant? The point is there are still biases, especially in old school things like surgery. If you're sure you want surgery from the beginning, go to an allo school if you get in.

ofcourse i agree with your reasoning, but how can you predict the future market for DO's?!? A lot of things are bound to change, more DO's will be graduating in the coming years, so the trends will change. I am not saying somehow DO's will have it easy in the future to match at an integrated PRS but it wouldn't be as hard as it is percieved to be. But saying that if you really want surgery go to allopathic schools creates a stereotype, a lot of medical students don't know what they want before medical school..its one thing to think you can do it from actually doing it. All the pre med talk most certainly changes once you go through med school..and for people who know that surgery is what they want be a DO or a MD then you have one way to get it that is to rock your boards and rest will take care of itself. Plasticman i am not trying to start a heated debate about this topic, i personally feel it would be a wrong mentality to see things wouldn't go your way in certain fields if you are a DO..which could be true now but optimism and the chance that the future is always brighter than the past should let you believe that anything is possible.Anyways i apologize if all of this is irrelevant.

 

[PlasticMan]

ofcourse i agree with your reasoning, but how can you predict the future market for DO's?!? A lot of things are bound to change, more DO's will be graduating in the coming years, so the trends will change. I am not saying somehow DO's will have it easy in the future to match at an integrated PRS but it wouldn't be as hard as it is percieved to be. But saying that if you really want surgery go to allopathic schools creates a stereotype, a lot of medical students don't know what they want before medical school..its one thing to think you can do it from actually doing it. All the pre med talk most certainly changes once you go through med school..and for people who know that surgery is what they want be a DO or a MD then you have one way to get it that is to rock your boards and rest will take care of itself. Plasticman i am not trying to start a heated debate about this topic, i personally feel it would be a wrong mentality to see things wouldn't go your way in certain fields if you are a DO..which could be true now but optimism and the chance that the future is always brighter than the past should let you believe that anything is possible.Anyways i apologize if all of this is irrelevant.

Now this I agree with. Reality is it is a little bit harder for us as DOs to get into plastics; has that stopped me from my current path? Of course not! Like I said earlier, NYCOM will soon have its own plastic fellowship, only DOs can apply for. Hopefully in the future even more spots will open. "Future's so bright, gotta wear shades." 😎

 

[coreynbr]

I just took both the USMLE and COMLEX, comlex on sept 26 and usmle on oct 1 and they were pretty similar tests with the usmle requiring more reasoning. The Comlex I thought was written extremely well actually but most of the questions were 1st order and 2nd order;however, the usmle was mostly 3rd and 4th order questions 😕requiring much more reasoning. Kind of like a much better MCAT minus the physics and organic chemistry. I actually had as much biochem on comlex as I did on the usmle so I think they both tested on similar material, also didn't get much mol biology on usmle, but I did about four thousand practice qs and Goljan did the board prep at my school so I went through alot of material. 😀 I also want to possibly do a surgery/plastics or ortho which is why I took both. 😎

 

[Lamborghini1315]

Now this I agree with. Reality is it is a little bit harder for us as DOs to get into plastics; has that stopped me from my current path? Of course not! Like I said earlier, NYCOM will soon have its own plastic fellowship, only DOs can apply for. Hopefully in the future even more spots will open. "Future's so bright, gotta wear shades." 😎

hehe nice..i will be pulling for ya, go get that plastics spot! I am really interested in General surgery and i don't think about beyond that..if surgery ends up being my field, i guess i would think about a fellowship. It's really encouraging to know that NYCOM's opening a plastics fellowship, i am certain that future DO's will make tremendous progress in surgical fields.