D.O. degree change

[scotchtapetest]

You might want to learn alittle about the history of your degree.

http://www.aacom.org/about/osteomed/Pages/default.aspx

"In fact, the mission statements of the majority of osteopathic medical schools state plainly that their purpose is the production of primary care physician"

The reason why DO was passed and allowed to form was their claim to meet the primary care need. Should they not stick with that?

WTF are you talking about dude? There are many MD schools that have the same mission (they are the majority of state MD schools)

Also, in no state did DOs use primary care shortage as a reason to become licensed.

You should really stick to what you know and avoid talking about things that you have no clue about!

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[PharmaTope]

No, you are wrong. You can NOT advertise yourself as a MD or a DO just based on your "degree" (at least in most states). Unless you are LICENSED you can NOT call yourself X X, MD. The reason being for public safety. Folks that work for pharma that don't hold a license don't (or definitely shouldn't) advertise themselves as DO or MD even though they may have earned the actual degrees. One could file a complaint against them with the state board and it could carry criminal sanctions if convicted.

If that wasn't the case and you didn't have to be licensed, I could give you a piece of paper that said you graduated from my school of medicine with a MD and you could go out and advertise yourself as one regardless of your clinical activity (since by your argument you wouldn't need a license and therefore you wouldn't necessarily have to go to an accredited medical school, and if it doesn't have to be accredited then there is no better one than bala565 school of medicine).

Furthermore, apparently not only you know him very well, but it appears that you know me very well too! If I was you, I wouldn't project my life story on others! And any schmuck who advertises himself as MD, DO, NMD is exactly that, a schmuck! (also when you read his CV, you find out that he is actually a super schmuck)!

The school that granted his MD is recognized and allows graduates to take the USMLE and obtain a full medical license in the USA. The guy took his career in the direction he wanted. He is also retired and suffering from ALS and no longer practicing medicine from what I understand. Read more about him. He probably went for his NMD because he wanted to learn more about that area because you will find many patients use nutrition products and herbals more often then you realize.

I have seen a nurse advertise himself as a Physician that obtained his MD in another country is not licensed as a physician in the USA in any way possible (that i disagree with personally). He lists MD after his name all the time.

I see a lot of people advertise themselves as Dr. when they obtain doctorate degrees from other counties such as Thailand and India.

I do not know Dr. Ben personally (never met him,never spoke to him), but reading his info it is clear the guy is a man who served this country in the military, helped many patients in his lifetime, and I don't think you are in any position to question his credentials when you are a "student" and yet to contribute anything substantial to health care and patients and I am certain from a career achievement standpoint that he has achieved more than you at this point. He is legally allowed to list all these degrees. The guy obtained a US medical degree, is licensed in the USA, worked as a physician.

This is like an unknown rapper calling out 50 cent.

Maybe you should make a callout thread about Dr. Dre calling himself a Dr. when he isn't one. Maybe he is tarnishing the word "DR". Perhaps we should strike DR from Martin Luther King since he wasn't an MD as well?

Come on man, do some maturing. This isn't some guy listing fake credentials.

 

[Soccer171983]

May as well just turn every DO school into an MD school and just offer optional OMM coursework and certification to every medical student.

I really like this idea. It would be similar to medical school in china where many students can designate western, eastern, or a combo of both medical training routes.

 

[scotchtapetest]

The school that granted his MD is recognized and allows graduates to take the USMLE and obtain a full medical license in the USA. The guy took his career in the direction he wanted. He is also retired and suffering from ALS and no longer practicing medicine from what I understand. Read more about him. He probably went for his NMD because he wanted to learn more about that area because you will find many patients use nutrition products and herbals more often then you realize.

I have seen a nurse advertise himself as a Physician that obtained his MD in another country is not licensed as a physician in the USA in any way possible (that i disagree with personally). He lists MD after his name all the time.

I see a lot of people advertise themselves as Dr. when they obtain doctorate degrees from other counties such as Thailand and India.

I do not know Dr. Ben personally (never met him,never spoke to him), but reading his info it is clear the guy is a man who served this country in the military, helped many patients in his lifetime, and I don't think you are in any position to question his credentials when you are a "student" and yet to contribute anything substantial to health care and patients and I am certain from a career achievement standpoint that he has achieved more than you at this point. He is legally allowed to list all these degrees. The guy obtained a US medical degree, is licensed in the USA, worked as a physician.

This is like an unknown rapper calling out 50 cent.

Maybe you should make a callout thread about Dr. Dre calling himself a Dr. when he isn't one. Maybe he is tarnishing the word "DR". Perhaps we should strike DR from Martin Luther King since he wasn't an MD as well?

Come on man, do some maturing. This isn't some guy listing fake credentials.

1) I don't know anything about the school he went to but he obviously never got licensed as a MD in the US which is all that matters.

2) I also can care less about his current medical problems and it is irrelevant to our discussion.

3) Just because you've seen people break the law, that doesn't change the law. Unless you are licensed as a DO or MD or DVM/DDS/etc. you are NOT allowed to put those initials after your name even though you may have earned those degrees. What you are forgetting is that the initials for those licenses and degrees are the same and there is no way for the general public to distinguish between the two and therefore, it is illegal to use them unless you are licensed as such! PhDs don't have this problem, because there is no "PhD" license, therefore there will be no confusion.

4) There was a very similar case in IL few years ago where another DO did the exact same thing this guy did and he was sanctioned by the board and if I remember correctly wasn't allowed to practice for awhile.

5) As "just a medical student" I have every right and even the responsibility to criticize and expose a schmuck when I see one! As someone else pointed out on this thread, next time your mother gets sick, take her to this guy (since you love him so much). I won't even let this guy groom my dog let alone practice medicine on my loved ones.

6) Our whole discussion is about the fact that he is NOT legally allowed to use MD after his name. You don't believe me, call GA medical board.

7) No one has any problem with Dr. (there are lot of "Drs." these days); The problem is when you use the initials MD publicly as this guy has.

8) If you think the medical profession is equivalent to the rap business, I feel very sorry for you!

 

[preDoGuy24]

The school that granted his MD is recognized and allows graduates to take the USMLE and obtain a full medical license in the USA. The guy took his career in the direction he wanted. He is also retired and suffering from ALS and no longer practicing medicine from what I understand. Read more about him. He probably went for his NMD because he wanted to learn more about that area because you will find many patients use nutrition products and herbals more often then you realize.

I have seen a nurse advertise himself as a Physician that obtained his MD in another country is not licensed as a physician in the USA in any way possible (that i disagree with personally). He lists MD after his name all the time.

I see a lot of people advertise themselves as Dr. when they obtain doctorate degrees from other counties such as Thailand and India.

I do not know Dr. Ben personally (never met him,never spoke to him), but reading his info it is clear the guy is a man who served this country in the military, helped many patients in his lifetime, and I don't think you are in any position to question his credentials when you are a "student" and yet to contribute anything substantial to health care and patients and I am certain from a career achievement standpoint that he has achieved more than you at this point. He is legally allowed to list all these degrees. The guy obtained a US medical degree, is licensed in the USA, worked as a physician.

This is like an unknown rapper calling out 50 cent.

Maybe you should make a callout thread about Dr. Dre calling himself a Dr. when he isn't one. Maybe he is tarnishing the word "DR". Perhaps we should strike DR from Martin Luther King since he wasn't an MD as well?

Come on man, do some maturing. This isn't some guy listing fake credentials.

Any "physician" who touts "naturopathic" medicine and played a role in the documentary "the secret" (Dont even get me started on the level of depravity of this fu**ing thing) is a QUACK and deserves to be called out for such. I don't care that I am just a medical student, this guy is taking advantage of people and if he is practicing naturopathetic and "alternative" cancer therapies he is probably harming or killing people whether directly or indirectly.


He does get a +1 for his sweet spray tan though.

 

[Tissot]

There's some misinformation flying around here.

The Dr. Ben character is probably being a little shady I'll give you guys that. There is not a blanket rule for every state that requires a person to be licensed to use the MD title. Many states do have that, but not all. A similar situation happened with a dentist that received a MD from the University of Health Sciences Antigua (it's like an advanced placement online thing). He was sent to court and he was let off the hook because he did complete the degree program but never licensed and according to the state law it was legal for him to use the letters after his name. I'm sure you could find the story with a little searching, it was somewhere down south I believe.

The place where Dr. Ben received his MD somehow managed to get licensed for a little while. They advertised on a website called dotomd.com, get it DO to MD (it's definitely shut down at this point, don't get any ideas). They would take your money and do some transcript magic then presto instant MD. All and all I see it for what it is, better for advertising. That's about it.

There are still a few of the Caribbean and maybe one place in Central America that will do some magic for the MD (varies from lots of advanced standing to just give us some money) but it really puts your credibility into question should you choose such a route. Think of it like a red flag for future employers.

Just to get back to the point of degree change. It's my opinion that it's only a matter of time. Osteopathic means Bone Disease. No amount of preaching or advertising can change it and I don't feel like it's representative of our profession at this point in our evolution to modern medicine.

 

[bhavik]

There's some misinformation flying around here.

The Dr. Ben character is probably being a little shady I'll give you guys that. There is not a blanket rule for every state that requires a person to be licensed to use the MD title. Many states do have that, but not all. A similar situation happened with a dentist that received a MD from the University of Health Sciences Antigua (it's like an advanced placement online thing). He was sent to court and he was let off the hook because he did complete the degree program but never licensed and according to the state law it was legal for him to use the letters after his name. I'm sure you could find the story with a little searching, it was somewhere down south I believe.

The place where Dr. Ben received his MD somehow managed to get licensed for a little while. They advertised on a website called dotomd.com, get it DO to MD (it's definitely shut down at this point, don't get any ideas). They would take your money and do some transcript magic then presto instant MD. All and all I see it for what it is, better for advertising. That's about it.

There are still a few of the Caribbean and maybe one place in Central America that will do some magic for the MD (varies from lots of advanced standing to just give us some money) but it really puts your credibility into question should you choose such a route. Think of it like a red flag for future employers.

Just to get back to the point of degree change. It's my opinion that it's only a matter of time. Osteopathic means Bone Disease. No amount of preaching or advertising can change it and I don't feel like it's representative of our profession at this point in our evolution to modern medicine.

I don't share your optimism. Most polls that have been conducted on this question have indicated that the majority doesn't support the degree change. What I can't figure out is, why are people saying no?!?!

Keep in mind, this Dr. Johnson guy probably got a quasi-degree because D.O. didn't have the same recognition when he created his business. He wouldn't have had to go to Montserrat if this wasn't the case.

 

[dirkenator]

Wasn't that just one study at one school 6 years ago? With the AOA forfeiting credentialing rights to the ACGME seems a foot in the right direction. Hopefully the old boys club (AOA) will be disbanded and everyone as physicians can put aside trivial differences and focus on what is important: the patient.

 

[docnotsopc]

I don't share your optimism. Most polls that have been conducted on this question have indicated that the majority doesn't support the degree change. What I can't figure out is, why are people saying no?!?!

Keep in mind, this Dr. Johnson guy probably got a quasi-degree because D.O. didn't have the same recognition when he created his business. He wouldn't have had to go to Montserrat if this wasn't the case.

Because we as DOs are unique, special, and better than our MD counterparts. Or at least thats what our OMM faculty tells us at our school

Did you pass on the kool-aid when they handed it out our first day of classes?

 

[TriagePreMed]

I don't share your optimism. Most polls that have been conducted on this question have indicated that the majority doesn't support the degree change. What I can't figure out is, why are people saying no?!?!

Keep in mind, this Dr. Johnson guy probably got a quasi-degree because D.O. didn't have the same recognition when he created his business. He wouldn't have had to go to Montserrat if this wasn't the case.

I really think they should consider doing MD-O or something like that to differentiate from foreign DO degrees that don't train you medically.

 

[Textbookversion]

I think a good marketing move would be for the AACOMAS to change the degree to "Doctor of Medicine, Doctor of Osteopathy" so they could alter the acronym to be MD, DO.

 

[Dharma]

I think a good marketing move would be for the AACOMAS to change the degree to "Doctor of Medicine, Doctor of Osteopathy" so they could alter the acronym to be MD, DO.

Just like his lordship A.T. Still (watching from above)?

 

[NeuroLAX]

I think a good marketing move would be for the AACOMAS to change the degree to "Doctor of Medicine, Doctor of Osteopathy" so they could alter the acronym to be MD, DO.

No. OMM curriculum is not doctoral level in and of itself. Not even a master's level.

 

[ahyes]

.

 

[NeuroLAX]

The only acceptable change would be DO to MD. Anything else leaves DOs in an even more difficult place as it would require more explanation without any of the previous legwork done by the profession.

I disagree. It could go to MD, Diplomat of Osteopathy. We are medical doctors with extra training in osteopathic treatment. Not much explanation needed there. Alas, this is all moot because at the moment nothing is forecasted to change with respect to degree designation.

 

[Textbookversion]

Well I mean obviously OMM is silly but the original DO degree was doctor of osteopathy.

 

[Milmedmayo]

Instead of just talking about this...
Is there a way to move a petition upwards?

 

[Dharma]

Instead of just talking about this...
Is there a way to move a petition upwards?

I think SOMA (maybe another subgroup) has tried it a few times and I never think it has made it to the floor for a vote. Not sure on the details though. The SOMA officers here should know.

 

[meltedbrain]

I disagree. It could go to MD, Diplomat of Osteopathy. We are medical doctors with extra training in osteopathic treatment. Not much explanation needed there. Alas, this is all moot because at the moment nothing is forecasted to change with respect to degree designation.

I agree with this as well.

 

[meltedbrain]

Instead of just talking about this...
Is there a way to move a petition upwards?

The problem is that there is no concerted effort currently (as to my knowledge). Many DOs who are interested in a degree name change are not organized enough. Lets face it the AOA is a well oiled machine and will slap down any petition. To them we're just a bunch of ants carrying a leaf.

Perhaps if we made a site and dedicated topic specific forum for people to voice their opinions we could have some progress.

 

[TriagePreMed]

The problem is that there is no concerted effort currently (as to my knowledge). Many DOs who are interested in a degree name change are not organized enough. Lets face it the AOA is a well oiled machine and will slap down any petition. To them we're just a bunch of ants carrying a leaf.

Perhaps if we made a site and dedicated topic specific forum for people to voice their opinions we could have some progress.

Well, it becomes a perpetual cycle. The people that are gung-ho about Osteopathy are the ones that join the AOA and eventually become leaders in the AOA. The rest of people are too busy practicing medicine and dealing with real problems.

 

[Dharma]

Well, it becomes a perpetual cycle. The people that are gung-ho about Osteopathy are the ones that join the AOA and eventually become leaders in the AOA. The rest of people are too busy practicing medicine and dealing with real problems.

Spot on.

 

[944]

well there is this, Advocates for the Osteopathic Degree Change (facebook page). should show up on a google search. looks pretty inactive but maybe worth checking out.

 

[meltedbrain]

well there is this, Advocates for the Osteopathic Degree Change (facebook page). should show up on a google search. looks pretty inactive but maybe worth checking out.

Someone started this petition a while back.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/DO-Degree-Change/

 

[meltedbrain]

Well, it becomes a perpetual cycle. The people that are gung-ho about Osteopathy are the ones that join the AOA and eventually become leaders in the AOA. The rest of people are too busy practicing medicine and dealing with real problems.

I completely agree. However, I would like to work for a more cohesive physician landscape rather than the faction mentality that the AOA perpetuates.

 

[Osteotastic]

.

 

[Osteotastic]

Found these first two responses to Crosby and the AOA interesting...

What Crosby wrote:

Advocacy to Protect the DO Degree
AOA President-elect Karen J. Nichols, DO, joined by several AOA Trustees and Past Presidents who graduated from KCUMB-COM, has written to her alma mater, the Kansas City University of Medicine and Biosciences College of Osteopathic Medicine (KCUMB-COM), in response to the school's recent proposal to offer a dual degree to incoming medical students. The letter expressed concern over KCUMB-COM seeking LCME accreditation so that the school can offer COM graduates a dual "DO, MD" degree and urged KCUMB President Karen Pletz to abandon this idea. If you are concerned about the impact this could have on the integrity of osteopathic medical education, let KCUMB-COM and the AOA know.
Posted in Advocacy at 16:41 on Thursday 17 December by JohnCrosby


First responses ( the majority that follow are similar)

Comments
ADO wrote:
Not concerned, but overjoyed KCUMB is doing this. Apparently some other "better" schools have the wheels in motion to follow suit. Letters and threats from the AOA and it's cronies won't do anything (ie TCOM). I wish KCUMB the best of luck with this progressive, logical and inevitable move.
Thursday 17 December 19:47
dr mddo wrote:
Alright, usually I don't overtly ask for a response but this time I would like one from Mr. Crosby if it is possible.

Why is the AOA seemingly trying to work against itself? After all we've discussed on here, what harm could it possibly do to adopt the more universal medical degree in addition to keeping our osteopathic roots? What would it take away from us that could cause us so much harm? If you could tell us, perhaps we will understand. It just seems so illogical since our great father, A.T. Still, kept his MD after his name and was totally fine with it. If having the MD,DO after our names could help us save just one more life somewhere on earth, isn't that worth it enough? We don't seem to understand how this strategy of resistance "protects" the DO degree but are actually worried that refusal to change could lead to its downfall. Please just consider this.
Mr. Crosby, what will happen to all of the osteopathic medical students after you and the other AOA higher ups aren't there to put a protective shield over us? Are we doomed to a lifetime of having to constantly defend our credentials on our own until we retire just because of our degree designation?

My last question is this: If the AOA and COCA would adopt the MD,DO as it's accrediting standard, why would we need to have LCME accreditation to achieve the dual degree? It seems COCA could just do it for us and we could be done with it. Please explain if you have time.

Thank you for listening,
C. Zotto
Thursday 17 December 22:42
VSN wrote:
I'm just curious as to how this would negatively impact the DO profession?

If anything, wouldn't this open up even more doors to DO students? It seems like the AOA should advocate for a dual degree, rather than jeopardize the profession when one school switches and the others don't.
Friday 18 December 00:18

 

[JGimpel]

When the CEO of the NBOME and Crosby, the President of the AOA since he joined the organization, retire, they'll have less of a stake in keeping things going and all the dirt on the new people should be enough to make it difficult to keep these dieing organizations going. The President of the AOA you see is just a figurehead that is decided upon by a group of 5 DOs that are ignorantly pro-DO until they die. There is no actual voting for the Puppet; he's paraded around different committees for a few years, only his name appears on the screen for the vote and he's called the "President-Elect" shortly thereafter. You ever notice that Crosby gets the most air-time on behalf of the AOA whereas the "Presidents" give only a choice few talks for 10 minutes a few times a year?

I'm a DO and I rarely do any OMM except on friends and family, long for the above organizations to be buried and promise, by the way, that I have received the "whole" paycheck every month, albeit much lower than MDs paychecks when compared to the same residency positions in the same places. It's freely available on the FREIDA and AOA Opportunities sites. People that want to be more noticed can do more of your CME online and avoid the pitiful AOA-sponsored drinkfests, post on the president (Crosby's) and the Puppet's blogs about this and watch their BS pile up faster than their propaganda. This is when people will ignore them more. I'm a Medical Doctor, why not have a title that says what I actually do every day?

Feel free to post this on any blog you want, especially the ones named above, just make sure you give the credit to JGimpel

 

[HirsuteAnthony]

Found these first two responses to Crosby and the AOA interesting...

What Crosby wrote:

Advocacy to Protect the DO Degree
AOA President-elect Karen J. Nichols, DO, joined by several AOA Trustees and Past Presidents who graduated from KCUMB-COM, has written to her alma mater, the Kansas City University of Medicine and Biosciences College of Osteopathic Medicine (KCUMB-COM), in response to the school's recent proposal to offer a dual degree to incoming medical students. The letter expressed concern over KCUMB-COM seeking LCME accreditation so that the school can offer COM graduates a dual "DO, MD" degree and urged KCUMB President Karen Pletz to abandon this idea. If you are concerned about the impact this could have on the integrity of osteopathic medical education, let KCUMB-COM and the AOA know.
Posted in Advocacy at 16:41 on Thursday 17 December by JohnCrosby


First responses ( the majority that follow are similar)

Comments
ADO wrote:
Not concerned, but overjoyed KCUMB is doing this. Apparently some other "better" schools have the wheels in motion to follow suit. Letters and threats from the AOA and it's cronies won't do anything (ie TCOM). I wish KCUMB the best of luck with this progressive, logical and inevitable move.
Thursday 17 December 19:47
dr mddo wrote:
Alright, usually I don't overtly ask for a response but this time I would like one from Mr. Crosby if it is possible.

Why is the AOA seemingly trying to work against itself? After all we've discussed on here, what harm could it possibly do to adopt the more universal medical degree in addition to keeping our osteopathic roots? What would it take away from us that could cause us so much harm? If you could tell us, perhaps we will understand. It just seems so illogical since our great father, A.T. Still, kept his MD after his name and was totally fine with it. If having the MD,DO after our names could help us save just one more life somewhere on earth, isn't that worth it enough? We don't seem to understand how this strategy of resistance "protects" the DO degree but are actually worried that refusal to change could lead to its downfall. Please just consider this.
Mr. Crosby, what will happen to all of the osteopathic medical students after you and the other AOA higher ups aren't there to put a protective shield over us? Are we doomed to a lifetime of having to constantly defend our credentials on our own until we retire just because of our degree designation?

My last question is this: If the AOA and COCA would adopt the MD,DO as it's accrediting standard, why would we need to have LCME accreditation to achieve the dual degree? It seems COCA could just do it for us and we could be done with it. Please explain if you have time.

Thank you for listening,
C. Zotto
Thursday 17 December 22:42
VSN wrote:
I'm just curious as to how this would negatively impact the DO profession?

If anything, wouldn't this open up even more doors to DO students? It seems like the AOA should advocate for a dual degree, rather than jeopardize the profession when one school switches and the others don't.
Friday 18 December 00:18

For a school to offer an MD (whether it be alone or in addition to another degree) on US soil, it would have to be accredited by the LCME. Ultimately, AOA, COCA, etc. don't have anything to do with this...AOA and COCA don't have the power to authorize the awarding of MDs.

 

[NewBlood]

For a school to offer an MD (whether it be alone or in addition to another degree) on US soil, it would have to be accredited by the LCME. Ultimately, AOA, COCA, etc. don't have anything to do with this...AOA and COCA don't have the power to authorize the awarding of MDs.

Good job taking the time to actually read the post, Harry Tony.

 

[HirsuteAnthony]

Good job taking the time to actually read the post, Harry Tony.

My comment was in response to this line: "My last question is this: If the AOA and COCA would adopt the MD,DO as it's accrediting standard, why would we need to have LCME accreditation to achieve the dual degree? It seems COCA could just do it for us and we could be done with it. Please explain if you have time."

 

[HirsuteAnthony]

Good job taking the time to actually read the post, Harry Tony.

BTW, I think the word you're looking for is "hairy".

 

[Osteotastic]

For a school to offer an MD (whether it be alone or in addition to another degree) on US soil, it would have to be accredited by the LCME. Ultimately, AOA, COCA, etc. don't have anything to do with this...AOA and COCA don't have the power to authorize the awarding of MDs.

In 1962 When the California medical association made it possible for D.O.s to change their degree to an M.D. for a fee of $65 and the attendance of a seminar 86% of the 2000 practicing D.O.s in California chose to do so.


I believe that if you were to look at the amount of support for degree change among Osteopathic medical students, Residents and practicing physicians the numbers increase at each phase.

This is because DO students are not only in the phase of actively being brain washed, they are also trying to remain positive and many don't want to admit to themselves that a degree change could be beneficial because they have recently made a huge life choice and commitment. This is an understandable dynamic.

In residency reality sinks in more clearly. Residents see the realities of bias and decreased opportunity for research, article and book publishing (unless you want to write the end all analysis of Chapman's points) academic positions etc. Of course there are exceptions just as Spud Web was an exception in the NBA but they are just that, exceptions.

In the practicing world the bias continues. While positions are attained by D.O.s they are in the vast majority of cases more easily attained by MDs. Like a D.O. in practice once wrote D.O.s are like the Avis car rental ads "we try harder". D.O.s in practice are now far removed from the brain washing and delusion of osteo medical school manipulation courses and practice the other 95% of what they learned in medical school... the part that their degree does not represent. This is why 86% of the 2000 in CA chose to switch.

As for the LCME... the California medical association (CMA) did it without them in 1962.

Also other possibilities could be AOA and COCA issuing a more representative degree change such as MDO.

 

[Osteotastic]

When the CEO of the NBOME and Crosby, the President of the AOA since he joined the organization, retire, they'll have less of a stake in keeping things going and all the dirt on the new people should be enough to make it difficult to keep these dieing organizations going. The President of the AOA you see is just a figurehead that is decided upon by a group of 5 DOs that are ignorantly pro-DO until they die. There is no actual voting for the Puppet; he's paraded around different committees for a few years, only his name appears on the screen for the vote and he's called the "President-Elect" shortly thereafter. You ever notice that Crosby gets the most air-time on behalf of the AOA whereas the "Presidents" give only a choice few talks for 10 minutes a few times a year?

I'm a DO and I rarely do any OMM except on friends and family, long for the above organizations to be buried and promise, by the way, that I have received the "whole" paycheck every month, albeit much lower than MDs paychecks when compared to the same residency positions in the same places. It's freely available on the FREIDA and AOA Opportunities sites. People that want to be more noticed can do more of your CME online and avoid the pitiful AOA-sponsored drinkfests, post on the president (Crosby's) and the Puppet's blogs about this and watch their BS pile up faster than their propaganda. This is when people will ignore them more. I'm a Medical Doctor, why not have a title that says what I actually do every day?

Feel free to post this on any blog you want, especially the ones named above, just make sure you give the credit to JGimpel

Always great to hear from a like minded individual who has cleared from the delirium/ delusion of the medical school OMM dept : )

In 1962 When the California medical association made it possible for D.O.s to change their degree to an M.D. for a fee of $65 and the attendance of a seminar 86% of the 2000 practicing D.O.s in California chose to do so.


I believe that if you were to look at the amount of support for degree change among Osteopathic medical students, Residents and practicing physicians the numbers increase at each phase.

This is because DO students are not only in the phase of actively being brain washed, they are also trying to remain positive and many don't want to admit to themselves that a degree change could be beneficial because they have recently made a huge life choice and commitment. This is an understandable dynamic.

In residency reality sinks in more clearly. Residents see the realities of bias and decreased opportunity for research, article and book publishing (unless you want to write the end all analysis of Chapman's points) academic positions etc. Of course there are exceptions just as Spud Web was an exception in the NBA but they are just that, exceptions.

In the practicing world the bias continues. While positions are attained by D.O.s they are in the vast majority of cases more easily attained by MDs. Like a D.O. in practice once wrote D.O.s are like the Avis car rental ads "we try harder". D.O.s in practice are now far removed from the brain washing and delusion of osteo medical school manipulation courses and practice the other 95% of what they learned in medical school... the part that their degree does not represent. This is why 86% of the 2000 in CA chose to switch.

the California medical association (CMA) did it without the LCME in 1962.

Also other possibilities could be AOA and COCA issuing a more representative degree change such as MDO.

 

[thepoopologist]

I'd be okay with a Doctor of Medicine degree from Random College of Osteopathic Medicine. The diploma will accurately describes my training, from the school where I received my training. If the AOA did that and opened up training spots to USMD graduates, there'd be a lot less bitching all around.

 

[se20001984]

should i pay the 65$ now or later?

 

[se20001984]

an NO
MDO will not cut it, its the same bs that will generate the same confusion.

MD, DO

 

[thepoopologist]

I actually don't care. The two questions I asked myself before applying were:

1. Is the money the same?
2. Are the job duties the same?

They are, therefore I don't give a damn.

 

[Osteotastic]

an NO
MDO will not cut it, its the same bs that will generate the same confusion.

MD, DO

I agree, an MD, DO would be far preferable but because of red tape politics and regulations, though I do not believe it is impossible and will never happen, the designation MDO would take nothing more than the AOA saying "lets do it" . Its a step in the right direction and having the degree designation start off with the letters MD is far less confusing than the completely non-medical appearing DO.

I see you are a pre-med? I'm in final year of residency and as I posted above... things start to change as each phase from medical student to resident to practicing doc as far as seeing the realities of open and closed doors. Is the MDO the "best" solution? ... no. Would it be quick and easy and a huge step in the right direction? Yes

 

[Osteotastic]

I actually don't care. The two questions I asked myself before applying were:

1. Is the money the same?
2. Are the job duties the same?

They are, therefore I don't give a damn.

Trust me poop, you should. I see you're a med student. As you progress I believe you may just start to give a damn.

 

[se20001984]

can toy share some of the problems?

(and no im not pre med lol...im almost done hell)

 

[Sandman4373]

Support the MDO title.... i mean DO stands for Doctorate of Osteopathic Medicine..... wheres the M ???

 

[Osteotastic]

Support the MDO title.... i mean DO stands for Doctorate of Osteopathic Medicine..... wheres the M ???

Heck ya... give me an M

makes sense right?

 

[thepoopologist]

Trust me poop, you should. I see you're a med student. As you progress I believe you may just start to give a damn.

Be straight with me. What in residency has led to the evolution of this viewpoint.

I am looking at this whole thing from a practical angle. I'll have a job doing what I tolerate the most. The salary will be in line with my specialty. I think having the degree changed to MD would be a bonus since I will be a physician and spent as many hours in the library and hospital as the rest of them. Not explaining the DO degree would be nice for a change. But I did not go to an MD school, nor will I be licensed with the USMLE exams. It was pointed out to me that COCA would have to obtain permission from the Department of Education to change the name of the degree, which in my opinion would not be a big obstacle since our graduates are legally and functionally equivalent to an MD physician but then I'm not in a position of power. Like I mentioned before, I wouldn't mind a Doctor of Medicine degree from a College of Osteopathic Medicine but it ultimately makes no difference to me at this point.

The two advantages I see with a degree change is that applicants to ACGME residencies who tend to gauge the strength of a residency by the number of USMDs wouldn't be able to tell the difference anymore and thus would allow PD's to more readily accept a strong DO candidate, which would be a big deal. The other is not explaining the degree to everyone, which doesn't have any practical utilization.

I don't know. You tell me. I start a 4 year residency in two months and change, and you appear to be finishing one.

 

[docnotsopc]

As MD students pointed out on the other forum, the title MD,DO is misleading because the public will perceive it as we have more training than MDs

(Listen up pre-meds, it aint true despite many of you drinking the koolaid that DO = MD + OMM. In the 200ish hours of OMM we have, MD students have more biochem and pharm.)

I would honestly rather just have DO schools taken over by the LCME somehow (to ensure proper quality of education and standards) and these specific schools offer OMM electives to those students who wish to take OMM. Maybe make one semester of OMM mandatory to satisfy the old timers. This way the people who like it can take more OMM. Those who dont, will not be forced to learn it for a huge chunk of med school. So we would be rewarded MDs, after meeting the appropriate standards..... and those who want extra OMM training can get it and specialize in it. Of course these now MD, previously DO school would be "lower tier" MD schools..... but that doesnt mean a few couldn't separate from the pack and make it to mid tier MD schools

Of course, im dreaming. For now im gonna get back to studying OMM for my last mandatory semester of it (final in a week).........with only 2 months left on ANY SERIOUS OMM (COMLEX 1) ..... woohoo!! sooo excited to be done with it, the Koolaid went bad after the first semester of first year

Poopologist: I have to agree with some of your points. On one hand we definitely should be grateful we will graduate and enter into a career that will put us in the top 5% of the nation financially (top 1% in some specialties). However, is this really worth it if you dont get the specialty of your choice (should it happen to be one of the more competitive fields and your only option is an AOA residency in the middle of no where)

 

[thepoopologist]

As MD students pointed out on the other forum, the title MD,DO is misleading because the public will perceive it as we have more training than MDs

(Listen up pre-meds, it aint true despite many of you drinking the koolaid that DO = MD + OMM. In the 200ish hours of OMM we have, MD students have more biochem and pharm.)

I would honestly rather just have DO schools taken over by the LCME somehow (to ensure proper quality of education and standards) and these specific schools offer OMM electives to those students who wish to take OMM. Maybe make one semester of OMM mandatory to satisfy the old timers. This way the people who like it can take more OMM. Those who dont, will not be forced to learn it for a huge chunk of med school. So we would be rewarded MDs, after meeting the appropriate standards..... and those who want extra OMM training can get it and specialize in it. Of course these now MD, previously DO school would be "lower tier" MD schools..... but that doesnt mean a few couldn't separate from the pack and make it to mid tier MD schools

Of course, im dreaming. For now im gonna get back to studying OMM for my last mandatory semester of it (final in a week).........with only 2 months left on ANY SERIOUS OMM (COMLEX 1) ..... woohoo!! sooo excited to be done with it, the Koolaid went bad after the first semester of first year

I hope you have more county rotations than community.

 

[thepoopologist]

Poopologist: I have to agree with some of your points. On one hand we definitely should be grateful we will graduate and enter into a career that will put us in the top 5% of the nation financially (top 1% in some specialties). However, is this really worth it if you dont get the specialty of your choice (should it happen to be one of the more competitive fields and your only option is an AOA residency in the middle of no where)

You make the best of the situation you're given. In my opinion, while I've often bought lottery tickets and have dreams of instant wealth, it is worth being in a profession with a nice open job market and high salary. I mean, if you aim for orthopedics but then have to settle for EM, have you really lost in life? Personally, the worst rotation I've ever done is neurology. Absolutely terrible specialty on a day to day basis, where medicine teams would be consulting us because they had no idea how to approach anything neurological, and clinics filled with psych patients in the guise of neuro problems (which I don't mind but not when there's a flood of pts). Still saw a lot of cool stuff - Charcot Marie Tooth? ALS? Had the residency gods **** on my face and neurology was the only residency open I still think i would've been okay with it.

 

[SpecterGT260]

For a school to offer an MD (whether it be alone or in addition to another degree) on US soil, it would have to be accredited by the LCME. Ultimately, AOA, COCA, etc. don't have anything to do with this...AOA and COCA don't have the power to authorize the awarding of MDs.

This. People seem to think offering a degree is as simple as changing the letters on the diploma. It isn't. Medical licensure in the USA is governed by federal and state statutory law, which names specific bodies as recognized to accredit degrees of various types. Should DO schools start offering a "dual degree", the MD portion would be worthless without changing the law books. Or worse, if the degree is not "dual" but a single degree named "MD.DO.", the entirety of the degree may not be recognized and graduates of said schools would not be eligible for license anywhere. This fantasy of "oh well we can just change the name!" is transparent and ignorant.

Good job taking the time to actually read the post, Harry Tony.

I didn't see anything in his post that indicated he didn't read the other.

BTW, I think the word you're looking for is "hairy".

Bazinga!

I like this kid

 

[SpecterGT260]

Support the MDO title.... i mean DO stands for Doctorate of Osteopathic Medicine..... wheres the M ???

Why? Let's be clear, the only rationale behind this push is to grand yourself a title as close to MD as possible. This is nothing other than a "man I wish I had an MD" circlejerk and, I suspect it is quite insulting to a number of DO students and graduates.

 

[SpecterGT260]

an NO
MDO will not cut it, its the same bs that will generate the same confusion.

MD, DO

Why don't you just go to an MD school if you feel the confusion is such a big deal? I hear the caribbean is taking apps.