D.O. degree change

[Osteotastic]

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Thank you for voicing your opinion. Please see my previous posts.

 

[SurgeDO]

Why? Let's be clear, the only rationale behind this push is to grand yourself a title as close to MD as possible. This is nothing other than a "man I wish I had an MD" circlejerk and, I suspect it is quite insulting to a number of DO students and graduates.

👍

ScumbagDOstudent.jpg:
-denied from MD schools
-accepted with open arms to DO school
-expects their DO school to change the school's degree and mission just for them

There are a lot of DOs out there who either a) don't give a **** about MD/DO degrees b) are proud and thankful for their education.

 

[Osteotastic]

RE: degree change

Having a degree that indicates you have learned an enormous body of evidence based medicine with which you practice rather than one that has no indication of any medical component and brings to mind, for most patient's the association of chiropractor or maybe just the sound Homer Simpson makes when he stubs his toe, would be highly beneficial to our profession.


And yes I do agree, an MD, DO would be preferable and may very well happen in the future. However, while the MD,DO would require navigating a good deal of red tape, politics and regulations, the designation MDO would take nothing more than the AOA saying "lets do it" . Its a step in the right direction and having the degree designation start off with the letters MD is far less confusing than the completely non-medical appearing DO.

Is the MDO the "best" solution? ... no. Would it be a big step in the right direction? Absolutely.




In 1962 When the California medical association made it possible for D.O.s to change their degree to an M.D. for a fee of $65 and the attendance of a seminar 86% of the 2000 practicing D.O.s in California chose to do so.

If you were to look at the amount of support for degree change among Osteopathic medical students, Residents and practicing physicians the numbers likely increase at each phase.

This is because DO students are not only in the phase of actively being brain washed, they are also trying to remain positive and many don't want to admit to themselves that a degree change could be beneficial because they have recently made a huge life choice and commitment. This is an understandable dynamic.

In residency reality sinks in more clearly. Residents see the realities of bias and decreased opportunity for research, article and book publishing (unless you want to write the end all analysis of Chapman's points) academic positions etc. Of course there are exceptions just as Spud Web was an exception in the NBA but they are just that, exceptions.

In the practicing world the bias continues. While positions are attained by D.O.s they are in the vast majority of cases more easily attained by MDs. Like a D.O. in practice once wrote D.O.s are like the Avis car rental ads "we try harder". D.O.s in practice are now far removed from the brain washing and delusion of osteo medical school manipulation courses and practice the other 95% of what they learned in medical school... the part that their degree does not represent. This is why 86% of the 2000 in CA chose to switch.

As for the LCME... the California medical association (CMA) did it without them in 1962.

Also other possibilities could be AOA and COCA issuing a more representative degree change such as MDO.

*I would like to add that as for the Medical student phase - I do see that this is changing as over the past 7-8 years since the economy went into deeper recession and med schools started getting more applicants the DO entry stats have gotten more competitive. This has lead to more scientifically minded critical thinkers in the osteo medical school population and I believe this will lead to further progress away from the faith based aspects of DO education that sites "research" articles that are less than weak in terms of design and strength and more toward the direction of the rest of what we learn in medical school. I think that this trend fueled by the increased proportion of bright critical thinkers will help move the profession in this direction and will be more likely to facilitate a change in degree designation to reflect this.

 

[Osteotastic]

Thank you for voicing your opinion SurgDO. There are a group in your camp and a group in mine. Always good to debate. Lets keep things civil though.

Also I am not a medical student. I am in Residency.

 

[Osteotastic]

.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Thank you for voicing your opinion. Please see my previous posts.

You will need to be more specific. As I didnt quote you, I wasn't responding to you and it likely has to do with the absurd length of this (and every) MD/DO thread. I'm not going to scrutinize every post before responding to the most current exchanges.

 

[HirsuteAnthony]

I like this kid 😀

👍 I'm fan of yours as well brother.

 

[SpecterGT260]

RE: degree change


As for the LCME... the California medical association (CMA) did it without them in 1962.

You can't stop there.....

What happened to those docs after the change? Many (Most? All?) became ineligible for licensure anywhere outside of california. This sounds strangely like the situation I described in my other post. You see, the ability to practice as a physician is not dictated by physicians. It is set by each state. If a state wants to let chiropractors call themselves "doctor" and let nurses and psychologists prescribe drugs, that state can do so (despite it being a phenomenally poor idea). California rewrote its licensing rules to allow for the change. The other states didnt. So it was a giant CF for anyone who wanted to move outside of California.

You have to remember, this "change" is being proposed on the accreditation side, not the legal side. If the AOA or whoever suddenly decides to change their degree without first getting it supported in the law their degree becomes null and void. This is why the "well the AOA should just...." argument is so ridiculous. If it were that easy, I assure you it would have happened.

 

[se20001984]

Why don't you just go to an MD school if you feel the confusion is such a big deal? I hear the caribbean is taking apps. 👍

Why dont you go to a chiropractor school??? you can save your self alote of time

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Specter, instead of criticizing this entire process why not join us, petition the LCME/ ACGME to accredit DO schools & education, thus standardizing clinical rotations to a level that you find savory. Why not agree to that?

 

[SpecterGT260]

Why dont you go to a chiropractor school??? you can save your self alote of time

Bc i think DCs are the debil. And im going to be happy w my MD degree

Specter, instead of criticizing this entire process why not join us, petition the LCME/ ACGME to accredit DO schools & education, thus standardizing clinical rotations to a level that you find savory. Why not agree to that?

I don't have issue w that. My statements haven't been to that effect either.

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[AlabamaPop]

Bc i think DCs are the debil. And im going to be happy w my MD degree

You know for an "MD medical student" you spend an awful lot of time on SDN, especially in the Pre-Osteo or Osteo forums just digging your nose trying to spark controversies, debates, pick on people without cause, or simply just troll.

I mean, shouldn't you be studying for exams left n right? You're one of the few "medical students" that I have seen who spend so much time online just wasting about - making an ass outta yourself.

 

[Oo Cipher oO]

Why? Let's be clear, the only rationale behind this push is to grand yourself a title as close to MD as possible. This is nothing other than a "man I wish I had an MD" circlejerk and, I suspect it is quite insulting to a number of DO students and graduates.

Yes it is. I'm no OMM fanatic but I knew before matriculating that I would be going to a DO school. When I graduate I expect to receive the DO degree that I earned. I have no delusions about bias or that some residencies will be out of my reach. I knew that coming in. None the less I plan to do what >90% of DO graduates do and match into my chosen field and work in my chosen profession.

Why go through all the drama of changing degrees? Any move to do so will undoubtedly cause a huge division across the profession. No one made you come to a DO school. I'm sorry becoming a DO and being trusted with people's lives while making a physicians salary isn't everything you hoped it would be. Don't ruin it for the rest of us.

Edit: this last part wasn't directed at you, Specter.

 

[SpecterGT260]

You know for an "MD medical student" you spend an awful lot of time on SDN, especially in the Pre-Osteo or Osteo forums just digging your nose trying to spark controversies, debates, pick on people without cause, or simply just troll.

I mean, shouldn't you be studying for exams left n right? You're one of the few "medical students" that I have seen who spend so much time online just wasting about - making an ass outta yourself.

I have all 4 medical school and pre-medical school forums subscribed in my userCP and my normal browsing is to go through all 4 of them as any are very likely to have threads relating to medical school, things important to medical students, so on and so forth. You see, the statements by you and others previously, as well as your arbitrary distinction concerning who spends what time where is the problem, not the letters that will someday be attached to my name. I highlighted a few important words here to emphasize that my browsing habits make an effort not to partition, exclude, or otherwise look down on anyone. I am realistic about the issues, meaning I approach them from a standpoint of reality rather than my own fragile ego that needs some E-boost. This is why I tend to clash more with the delicate Pre-DOs while the DO students and I tend to get along just fine.

And when I am online I am typically studying. They came out with this weird sci-fi-esque tech awhile back where the interwebs can travel, not to the giant supercomputer fed by punch cards in a nearby warehouse, but to a small 13" portable device that can sit on your knees. I think I shall call it a kneetop computer. Think it will catch on?

I gotta say, though, I do appreciate the "Shouldn't you be _______" statements. You seem blissfully unaware of how hard you prove my point with such statements. 👍........👎

 

[DocEspana]

Spectre... shouldn't you be busy eating skiiers at the bottom of the slope?

 

[SpecterGT260]

Spectre... shouldn't you be busy eating skiiers at the bottom of the slope?

That slows down during spring, sadly.

 

[se20001984]

spec ur MD?

dude...how do you EVEN HAVE TIME TO TROLL the DO forums?! im shocked!

i cannot find time to look at the MD side...


are you even in med school braaaa?or you just have great time management?

looks like with that many posts...your should be pre-med-ing it

...you must be sad and lonely that youd come here on yor free time

need a hug buddy?

 

[SpecterGT260]

spec ur MD?

dude...how do you EVEN HAVE TIME TO TROLL the DO forums?! im shocked!

i cannot find time to look at the MD side...


are you even in med school braaaa?or you just have great time management?

looks like with that many posts...your should be pre-med-ing it

...you must be sad and lonely that youd come here on yor free time

need a hug buddy?

And who are you, exactly?

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[Bones DO]

I don't want to derail here but try to stay with me here...I rotated with a family practice guy that does OMM. On the 2nd day we had some pt's that were there specifically for OMM adjustments. Fine. First pt comes in and we do some routine ME and HVLA, and then at the end, he does this weird thing to the pt's head: He forms make-believe guns with both his hands by extending his 2nd and 3rd digit and clenching with his 1st, 4th and 5th. He then suspends both hands about 3 inches off the person's head on the posterior aspect, and points them inward toward the center of his head and just holds it there for a couple minutes. He then proceeds to tell me that this is a very powerful technique and not to attempt it with proper supervision. We were not taught this 'technique' in the first two years, and granted we got a bunch of BS with 'conventional' cranial but this takes it to the next level of insanity. Anyone else witness this kind of crap?

 

[Osteotastic]

This. People seem to think offering a degree is as simple as changing the letters on the diploma. It isn't. Medical licensure in the USA is governed by federal and state statutory law, which names specific bodies as recognized to accredit degrees of various types. Should DO schools start offering a "dual degree", the MD portion would be worthless without changing the law books. Or worse, if the degree is not "dual" but a single degree named "MD.DO.", the entirety of the degree may not be recognized and graduates of said schools would not be eligible for license anywhere. This fantasy of "oh well we can just change the name!" is transparent and ignorant.


I didn't see anything in his post that indicated he didn't read the other.

Bazinga!

I like this kid 😀

So if this argument is correct and it truly does take nothing short of an act of God to alter the degree designation by the addition of an M to indicate the vast majority of medical training we receive, thus changing to something like MDO, I do wonder how those "ignorant" dentists, at now nearly half of all dental schools and growing, were able to make the "transparent and ignorant ""fantasy" of changing from DDS to DMD a reality. Oh and to think the monumental mountains all of those schools must have moved !! Impossible!!


drip drip drip.... what's that I hear.... oh I do say, I believe its the sound of leaky logic.


BTW I too find it interesting that as an MD student you seem to stand out as the most outspoken in opposition.

 

[SpecterGT260]

So if this argument is correct, I wonder how those ignorant dentists, at now nearly half of all dental schools and growing, were able to make the transparent and ignorant fantasy of changing from DDS to DMD a reality. Oh and to think the monumental mountains all of those schools must have moved !! Impossible!!


drip drip drip.... what's that I hear.... oh I do say, I believe its the sound of leaky logic!


BTW I too find it interesting that as an MD student you seem to stand out as the most outspoken in opposition.

Because the degrees are synonymous in the law books (as opposed to "equal" ). As I would hope you know as a DO resident, the laws do not treat MD and DO synonymously or even equally in all areas even if they are equal in terms of scope of practice.

I'm also not aware of them changing degrees in dentistry. the DDS/DMD thing is more of a heritage issue of some schools requiring their degrees to be Greek (or something). The degrees are not two distinct degrees that drifted together as is the case with MD and DO.

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[Osteotastic]

Because the degrees are synonymous in the law books (as opposed to "equal" ). As I would hope you know as a DO resident, the laws do not treat MD and DO synonymously or even equally in all areas even if they are equal in terms of scope of practice.

I'm also not aware of them changing degrees in dentistry. the DDS/DMD thing is more of a heritage issue of some schools requiring their degrees to be Greek (or something). The degrees are not two distinct degrees that drifted together as is the case with MD and DO.

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I do understand your argument... though remain dubious toward it. But I was speaking about a degree change ( to MDO) as opposed to adding the MD degree to the DO. You'll see in my previous post that I recognize the difference in level of complexity of these changes.

However, the change to MD is not impossible as California showed us in 1962. I understand that your argument is that the degree is void outside of the state... I do not know that this is true, more specifically that a DO who changed to an MD in one state now is revoked from practicing as a DO in other states that do not recognize the change from DO to MD. However, even if that were the case, so be it... many changes happen state by state. The point is this was once done. I have met one of these former DO's and he still practices as an MD surgeon in California. It is not impossible.

 

[AlabamaPop]

make an effort not to partition, exclude, or otherwise look down on anyone.

I gotta say, though, I do appreciate the "Shouldn't you be _______" statements. You seem blissfully unaware of how hard you prove my point with such statements. 👍........👎

Aside from a rather disjointed response, I must say that you have made an effort to condescend upon a lot of people. Regardless of what information travels to what machine, the point is you spend quite a decent (for a lack of better word) trolling SDN in general in comparison to many busy medical students trying to study many many hours to stay on top of their performance as opposed to prioritizing on SDN.

If we add up how long it takes you to lurk to the forums, and post as much as you do, read plenty of responses in a week - its probably a very large number, again, relative to the average medical student.

And yes, you do spend a disproportionate amount in the Pre-DO forum just...again...trolling about -- which I'm not sure what kind of news and updates you get from it being an "allopathic medical student" - besides a good amount of internal chuckle by provoking and trolling on whoever you find that can fall into your troll-trap.

I mean I'm sure you get along with other students, despite how many medical students on SDN (15+) have told me via message that they have told plenty of premedical students to be wary of you, since your behavior on SDN (for the majority of the time-- emphasis on majority) is rather counter-productive, but what do I know right?

Lastly, only people with delicate egos do what you do. It's pretty Psych 101.

spec ur MD?

dude...how do you EVEN HAVE TIME TO TROLL the DO forums?! im shocked!

i cannot find time to look at the MD side...


are you even in med school braaaa?or you just have great time management?

looks like with that many posts...your should be pre-med-ing it

...you must be sad and lonely that youd come here on yor free time

need a hug buddy?

I think he needs more than just a hug (if you know what I mean)...but ALOT of people have already pointed out that based on his behavior - and people who told me they allegedly have done research to see who he is -- and have found that he's not a medical student.

I mean no MD medical student spends THAT much time lurking the Pre-DO forum 10x than the standard forums for MD medical students.

Anyone can change their status on SDN and say they are something than not. I can put "Medical Student" right now and create an online personality like one. MANY SDNers have been caught lying on their career-level, particularly the trolls.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Aside from a rather disjointed response, I must say that you have made an effort to condescend upon a lot of people. Regardless of what information travels to what machine, the point is you spend quite a decent (for a lack of better word) trolling SDN in general in comparison to many busy medical students trying to study many many hours to stay on top of their performance as opposed to prioritizing on SDN.

If we add up how long it takes you to lurk to the forums, and post as much as you do, read plenty of responses in a week - its probably a very large number, again, relative to the average medical student.

And yes, you do spend a disproportionate amount in the Pre-DO forum just...again...trolling about -- which I'm not sure what kind of news and updates you get from it being an "allopathic medical student" - besides a good amount of internal chuckle by provoking and trolling on whoever you find that can fall into your troll-trap.

I mean I'm sure you get along with other students, despite how many medical students on SDN (15+) have told me via message that they have told plenty of premedical students to be wary of you, since your behavior on SDN (for the majority of the time-- emphasis on majority) is rather counter-productive, but what do I know right?

Lastly, only people with delicate egos do what you do. It's pretty Psych 101.

1) "too complicated for you" does not equal disjointed. Many others follow my posts with minimal effort. Yes, this was intentionally condescending.

2) you have no idea what in required of someone in medical school so the point here is moot. At the very least I can take your statements regarding my time spent, compare to my own (and personal) level of academic success, and feel quite good about myself

3) I get PMs too. I don't care who told you what, to he honest. You last line is actually incredibly ironic.

4) please address my points rather than appealing to some phantom sense of the greater SDN opinion on the matter. I don't arbitrarily condescend towards people. It happens specifically when someone arrogantly spouts off toward someone else without knowing what they are talking about. I have enough people (both MD and DO) who have backed me in my statements that I care exceedingly little about your opinion of me or that of those who have apparently PMed you. The point is to address the topic and not your meaningless personal opinions 🙂.

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[SpecterGT260]

Wait... we have argued before, haven't we? now this makes sense. Psych 101 indeed. Consider yourself ignored. Your fun-filled opinions last time were nothing but hyped up "DO = MD+" based on nothing other than your own need to stroke your ego.

Good lord, way to hold a grudge, chickiepoo. That was months ago. Apparently you haven't learned anything either.

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[sylvanthus]

Spectre... shouldn't you be busy eating skiiers at the bottom of the slope?

Lol this cracked me up.

In all reality, though, I like reading Spectre's posts as I appreciate the blunt honesty that too many lack on here.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I do understand your argument... though remain dubious to it's validity - see below. But I was speaking about a degree change ( to MDO) as opposed to adding the MD degree to the DO. You'll see in my previous post that I recognize the difference in level of complexity of these changes.

However, the change to MD is not impossible as California showed us in 1962. I understand that your argument is that the degree is void outside of the state... I do not know that this is true, more specifically that a DO who changed to an MD in one state now is revoked from practicing as a DO in other states that do not recognize the change from DO to MD. However, if even if that were the case, so be it... many changes happen state by state. The point is this was once done. I have met one of these former DO's and he still practices as an MD surgeon in California. It is not impossible.

The way I understand it, the DOs in Cali were not eligible to practice in any capacity outside of the state. I could be wrong, but this is what I understand of the situation. In the laws, the degrees "DO" and "MD" are stated explicitly with regards to requirements. A new degree "MDO" would require the laws be rewritten. Hell, it may even be that changing the case from DO to dO or something silly would require a re-write. I don't know, and with the way the law works, typically nobody knows for sure until there is a ruling on something like that. But as for now my understanding is that there is precedent to state that changing the degree name would result in revocation of rights until the laws are updated. Ergo, this is not a simple matter of "we should change it" - which was my original point.

se2000,
Your buddy is on the ignore list because, contrary to popular belief, I have too much on my plate now with boards approaching to dedicate my normal amount of time to these forums. So if you must have yourselves a condescending circle-jerk in order to very (VERY) transparently ignore any arguments I've made in a vain attempt at.... well... honestly I'm not even sure... have at it, chieftain. But if you would like to address my points and actually have a discussion I'm sure plenty of people, myself potentially included, may learn something. Just keep in mind that commentary on the amount of time I spend here doesn't bother me in the slightest..... IMO it reflects pretty poorly on the person making the statements. Take it as you will. Or don't. I can just as easily ignore you too and continue discussing something interesting with the resident who doesn't have his head lodged squarely between his ass cheeks.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Lol this cracked me up.

In all reality, though, I like reading Spectre's posts as I appreciate the blunt honesty that too many lack on here.

and he is DO

 

[SpecterGT260]

This message is hidden because OncoMD is on your ignore list.

Awwwww sadface 🙁

 

[SugarPie]

Awwwww sadface 🙁

Don't be sad pumpkin! This is what was said.

1) "too complicated for you" does not equal disjointed. Many others follow my posts with minimal effort. Yes, this was intentionally condescending.

2) you have no idea what in required of someone in medical school so the point here is moot. At the very least I can take your statements regarding my time spent, compare to my own (and personal) level of academic success, and feel quite good about myself

3) I get PMs too. I don't care who told you what, to he honest. You last line is actually incredibly ironic.

4) please address my points rather than appealing to some phantom sense of the greater SDN opinion on the matter. I don't arbitrarily condescend towards people. It happens specifically when someone arrogantly spouts off toward someone else without knowing what they are talking about. I have enough people (both MD and DO) who have backed me in my statements that I care exceedingly little about your opinion of me or that of those who have apparently PMed you. The point is to address the topic and not your meaningless personal opinions 🙂.

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Awwww...did I strike a nerve? 😛

1. Haha, "too complicated for you" is so subjective. It was disjointed, but very easy-to-read -- not really, I'm not joking lol. Attempt to condescend all you want, it really doesn't bother me the least bit 😛

2. You're very right. I have no 1st person experiences (yet) of what's required for medical school, but nonetheless, PLENTY of medical students have agreed with my logic, and therefore adding validity to my statements - so...I guess not so moot huh? 😎

Oh I'm sure you are academic success, no doubt. I guess it depends what each individual considers success based on their own set standards..some lower than others

3. Don't care you say? Suuuuure you don't

4. You do arbitrarily condescend. You've done it to me in the past, and I used to be probably one of the most passive people on SDN. You've done it to plenty others - and many medical and pre-medical and I think like 2 residents? have told me the same thing.

Everyone knows you're a FAKE medical student probably typing away in mommy's basement...socially awkward...no friends...maybe that's why you are on SDN so much, so you can compensate for what you don't have in real life.

I do have single female friends (and male too if you're into that sort of thing ). Let me know. I'll give you my e-mail and set something up! Someone's gotta get you back into the real world, so you don't end up wasting your life on SDN.

Wait... we have argued before, haven't we? now this makes sense. Psych 101 indeed. Consider yourself ignored. Your fun-filled opinions last time were nothing but hyped up "DO = MD+" based on nothing other than your own need to stroke your ego.

Good lord, way to hold a grudge, chickiepoo. That was months ago. Apparently you haven't learned anything either.

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LOL, you make no sense. What ego? I'm extremely humble and down to earth. We have argued before, because you've tried to troll me and I (unknowingly) fed into your troll-trap.

The only one who has an ego is you. Otherwise, you wouldn't have the need to continuously spark arguments to try to come up on top...oh wait, that's more like insecurities.

I don't hold any grudges for online personalities lol. It's just sad how people still debate with you when that's all you feed off of...debates and arguments. Apparently, your opinion is...your opinion and highly innaccurate

Like I said, let me know if you want a date with one of my friends in real life. You need one.


You'll be on the ignore list too right now....hugs!!!

 

[SugarPie]

Today, 06:16 PM
Remove user from ignore list
SpecterGT260
This message is hidden because SpecterGT260 is on your ignore list.

Super heartbroken 🙁

 

[SpecterGT260]

Don't be sad pumpkin! This is what was said.



Awwww...did I strike a nerve? 😛

1. Haha, "too complicated for you" is so subjective. It was disjointed, but very easy-to-read -- not really, I'm not joking lol. Attempt to condescend all you want, it really doesn't bother me the least bit 😛

2. You're very right. I have no 1st person experiences (yet) of what's required for medical school, but nonetheless, PLENTY of medical students have agreed with my logic, and therefore adding validity to my statements - so...I guess not so moot huh? 😎

Oh I'm sure you are academic success, no doubt. I guess it depends what each individual considers success based on their own set standards..some lower than others

3. Don't care you say? Suuuuure you don't

4. You do arbitrarily condescend. You've done it to me in the past, and I used to be probably one of the most passive people on SDN. You've done it to plenty others - and many medical and pre-medical and I think like 2 residents? have told me the same thing.

Everyone knows you're a FAKE medical student probably typing away in mommy's basement...socially awkward...no friends...maybe that's why you are on SDN so much, so you can compensate for what you don't have in real life.

I do have single female friends (and male too if you're into that sort of thing ). Let me know. I'll give you my e-mail and set something up! Someone's gotta get you back into the real world, so you don't end up wasting your life on SDN.



LOL, you make no sense. What ego? I'm extremely humble and down to earth. We have argued before, because you've tried to troll me and I (unknowingly) fed into your troll-trap.

The only one who has an ego is you. Otherwise, you wouldn't have the need to continuously spark arguments to try to come up on top...oh wait, that's more like insecurities.

I don't hold any grudges for online personalities lol. It's just sad how people still debate with you when that's all you feed off of...debates and arguments. Apparently, your opinion is...your opinion and highly innaccurate

Like I said, let me know if you want a date with one of my friends in real life. You need one.


You'll be on the ignore list too right now....hugs!!!

"I'm sooooo humble you don't even know!" "you can't ignore me! I'll ignore you back!" 🙄
Sweet zombie Jesus, the irony....

I should add.... I find your mockery of homosexuality somewhat disturbing. I actually am not, and have a long-term girlfriend... all the same, that you would use homosexuality to imply an insult speaks volumes about you as a person.

Sorry... are you quoting her outside of quotes or is this Onco on a new account? [EDIT: ignore this last line, I figured it out with your next post]
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[SpecterGT260]

Today, 06:16 PM
Remove user from ignore list
SpecterGT260
This message is hidden because SpecterGT260 is on your ignore list.

Super heartbroken 🙁

This is... kinda the internet equivalent of the "I know you are, but what am I" argument.... I can't believe you made a new account specifically to flame (and you blocked me on your fake account to boot, apparently... Genius!).

I guess I can block this too. Please, someone, lets get this back on track before the mods lock it down. Word on the street is that flame wars are not being tolerated as much as in days past.

The way I understand it, the DOs in Cali were not eligible to practice in any capacity outside of the state. I could be wrong, but this is what I understand of the situation. In the laws, the degrees "DO" and "MD" are stated explicitly with regards to requirements. A new degree "MDO" would require the laws be rewritten. Hell, it may even be that changing the case from DO to dO or something silly would require a re-write. I don't know, and with the way the law works, typically nobody knows for sure until there is a ruling on something like that. But as for now my understanding is that there is precedent to state that changing the degree name would result in revocation of rights until the laws are updated. Ergo, this is not a simple matter of "we should change it" - which was my original point.

^^^^ this on topic thing, let's talk about this.

 

[AlabamaPop]

I am an MD student.

The DO degree will never be changed to MD. Why? The AACOM is interested in still existing and maintaining control of its member schools. Go back and read a book called "The DOs" by Norman Gevitz. The AMA has repeatedly tried to coopt DO schools, to bring them under the umbrella of the LCME so we can all be MDs.

Yet despite the efforts of the AMA over the years, DOs want their indepedence. They want to still teach OMM and maintain that they are a distinct group from their "allopathic" counterparts.

It is a control issue and a branding issue. It will never happen. And it's too bad IMO.

Honestly, I feel the current administration are mostly headstrong who are proud and stuck in their tradition.

I do predict a change in the degree, as the lines do continued to be blurried and less DOs are continuing to practice OMT (according to statistics).

I don't believe it will start off with an outright change to MD, BUT, there will definitely be an "M" incorporated into the degree initials. It probably won't happen until more....contemporary physicians and staff members take over the majority of the AOA and decide it's beneficial to combine institutions beyond the initial residency merger.

They gotta start somewhere right?

 

[sylvanthus]

Honestly, I feel the current administration are mostly headstrong who are proud and stuck in their tradition.

I do predict a change in the degree, as the lines do continued to be blurried and less DOs are continuing to practice OMT (according to statistics).

I don't believe it will start off with an outright change to MD, BUT, there will definitely be an "M" incorporated into the degree initials. It probably won't happen until more....contemporary physicians and staff members take over the majority of the AOA and decide it's beneficial to combine institutions beyond the initial residency merger.

They gotta start somewhere right?

The problem is that the people who are "elected" into AOA positions are the OMT cronies that believe the same thing as the old guard. There is little chance of an honest election where regular DOs are elected into AOA positions. From what I understand they pretty much appoint their replacements. Correct me if I am wrong as this is what I keep hearing through the grapevine.

 

[The kitchen sink]

The problem is that the people who are "elected" into AOA positions are the OMT cronies that believe the same thing as the old guard. There is little chance of an honest election where regular DOs are elected into AOA positions. From what I understand they pretty much appoint their replacements. Correct me if I am wrong as this is what I keep hearing through the grapevine.

I feel like my school administration is run the same way. And it sucks.

 

[Osteotastic]

Can't we all just get along? : )

OK now back to the great (and civil) debate

yes, I too believe that it is only a matter of time before an M will be integrated into the name. No not for Megalomania, as some would argue but for Medicine - to accurately represent that we adhere to and practice that which we have mastered - not just the fantastic, bone crunching... umm... bone crunching.... but evidence based Medicine as well.

 

[group_theory]

The last couple posts are examples of what is expected in this thread.

The previous page of posts are not examples of what is expected in this thread.


It is easy to get carried away, especially with arguments on the internet. Especially with arguments on the internet.

http://studentdoctor.net/online-service-agreement/

Please utilize the ignore user feature. Please don't create duplicate accounts. Please avoid getting into flame wars. Please be civil towards one another, even if you disagree with what they are saying.

Sometimes, the better part of valor is discretion

To die is to be a counterfeit, for he is but the counterfeit of
a man who hath not the life of a man; but to counterfeit dying,
when a man thereby liveth, is to be no counterfeit, but the true
and perfect image of life indeed. The better part of valor is
discretion, in the which better part I have sav'd my life.

 

[SpecterGT260]

The problem is that the people who are "elected" into AOA positions are the OMT cronies that believe the same thing as the old guard. There is little chance of an honest election where regular DOs are elected into AOA positions. From what I understand they pretty much appoint their replacements. Correct me if I am wrong as this is what I keep hearing through the grapevine.

I don't think the "M" means much, if anything at all, to physicians. Sure, it may be a problem with the way the AOA upper echelon is picked, but even if that were changed, do you want the people pining over an "M" in charge?

 

[AlabamaPop]

The problem is that the people who are "elected" into AOA positions are the OMT cronies that believe the same thing as the old guard. There is little chance of an honest election where regular DOs are elected into AOA positions. From what I understand they pretty much appoint their replacements. Correct me if I am wrong as this is what I keep hearing through the grapevine.

Actually, thats what I heard in the past too. The ONLY problem I have with being a DO are the questionable decisions with handling the MD vs DO issues by leadership of the AOA.

I think that if more contemporary DOs became more active in the "political" aspect of their career, we would be able to make better changes for ourselves and future generations.

I'm still VERY surprised they got a residency merger...it shows that there might be hope.

Using analogy, there have been civil issues that we thought we could not achieve based on the active country government we had at the time, and we were able to make progress, so I'm sure we can within the medical area. I'm optimistic.

If I were to pick initials, I would get MD, OS. (Medical Doctor degree, Osteopathic Science degree) or OS, MD. Whichever order lol

 

[Osteotastic]

.

 

[NeuroLAX]

FYI Onco nothing has been carved in stone. It's an ongoing proposal. They still need to formulate a Memorandum of Understanding. Be on the lookout for news this May-July.

It would be a disservice to let it fall through the cracks. Still, there are supposedly whispers of concern regarding the stability of the DO degree and ultimately the DO profession.

 

[sylvanthus]

I don't think the "M" means much, if anything at all, to physicians. Sure, it may be a problem with the way the AOA upper echelon is picked, but even if that were changed, do you want the people pining over an "M" in charge?

Naww I don't really care about a name change. I think it is ridiculous to be honest. Just pointing out my impression of how the AOA elects people to replace them and how I do not for a second believe they will improve.

 

[sylvanthus]

Actually, thats what I heard in the past too. The ONLY problem I have with being a DO are the questionable decisions with handling the MD vs DO issues by leadership of the AOA.

I think that if more contemporary DOs became more active in the "political" aspect of their career, we would be able to make better changes for ourselves and future generations.

I'm still VERY surprised they got a residency merger...it shows that there might be hope.

Using analogy, there have been civil issues that we thought we could not achieve based on the active country government we had at the time, and we were able to make progress, so I'm sure we can within the medical area. I'm optimistic.

If I were to pick initials, I would get MD, OS. (Medical Doctor degree, Osteopathic Science degree) or OS, MD. Whichever order lol

They didn't "get" a residency merger. They were essentially sucked up by the ACGME or else DOs completing an AOA residency would not be allowed into MD fellowships. They basically had no choice and are trying to save face by attempting to make it look like the AOAs idea.

 

[AlabamaPop]

FYI Onco nothing has been carved in stone. It's an ongoing proposal. They still need to formulate a Memorandum of Understanding. Be on the lookout for news this May-July.

It would be a disservice to let it fall through the cracks. Still, there are supposedly whispers of concern regarding the stability of the DO degree and ultimately the DO profession.

Neuro! Haven't seen you around much! How's med school going for you this semester? I finally apply this year, woop woop!

There IS an official proposal being worked on in regards to changing the initials? I'm confused by the way you worded your response.

 

[NeuroLAX]

Neuro! Haven't seen you around much! How's med school going for you this semester? I finally apply this year, woop woop!

There IS an official proposal being worked on in regards to changing the initials? I'm confused by the way you worded your response.

Hi 🙂 It's going well. You know, doing the med student thing...surviving. Good luck this coming cycle! For the love of God submit Day One.

I was commenting on something you had said in your previous post referring to the proposed GME merger. Just reiterating that unfortunately nothing is completely official yet. There is no talk of degree change, currently. I was saying that some DOs have expressed concern that this merger might inevitably be the kiss of death for the DO profession as we know it. Basically, they want some assurances.

 

[SpecterGT260]

They didn't "get" a residency merger. They were essentially sucked up by the ACGME or else DOs completing an AOA residency would not be allowed into MD fellowships. They basically had no choice and are trying to save face by attempting to make it look like the AOAs idea.

I have been flamed so hard for saying this....

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[SpecterGT260]

Naww I don't really care about a name change. I think it is ridiculous to be honest. Just pointing out my impression of how the AOA elects people to replace them and how I do not for a second believe they will improve.

Yeah I caught that. My response had more to do with expanding on your point. Onco seems to think the title is a big deal and I was basically saying the reason it isn't changing has more to do with nobody other than pre meds caring and less to do with who is in the AOA

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[NurWollen]

I don't want to derail here but try to stay with me here...I rotated with a family practice guy that does OMM. On the 2nd day we had some pt's that were there specifically for OMM adjustments. Fine. First pt comes in and we do some routine ME and HVLA, and then at the end, he does this weird thing to the pt's head: He forms make-believe guns with both his hands by extending his 2nd and 3rd digit and clenching with his 1st, 4th and 5th. He then suspends both hands about 3 inches off the person's head on the posterior aspect, and points them inward toward the center of his head and just holds it there for a couple minutes. He then proceeds to tell me that this is a very powerful technique and not to attempt it with proper supervision. We were not taught this 'technique' in the first two years, and granted we got a bunch of BS with 'conventional' cranial but this takes it to the next level of insanity. Anyone else witness this kind of crap?

Bones delivers such a meaty story for discussion and it gets ignored because everyone else on this thread is arguing over why the other people on this thread are here and over what they said they said and whether they deserve to be here or not.

I for one would be fascinated to know if Bones' experience has been had by other students as well.

 

[Didierdrogba]

Bones delivers such a meaty story for discussion and it gets ignored because everyone else on this thread is arguing over why the other people on this thread are here and over what they said they said and whether they deserve to be here or not.

I for one would be fascinated to know if Bones' experience has been had by other students as well.

Don't you guys think eliminating BS from our already loaded curriculum should be our priority right now, instead of changing our title, which doesn't even matter that much anyways (DMD vs. DDS, anyone)???????