D.O. friendly Texas Programs

[tndoc12]

Are there any programs that are more D.O. friendly than others? Really interested in UTSW, UT San Antonio, and Baylor.

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[CrispDO]

Check your PM

 

[PMPMD]

Are there any programs that are more D.O. friendly than others? Really interested in UTSW, UT San Antonio, and Baylor.

Go to their websites, look at current residents, count the number of DOs. For example UTHSCSA has 5 out of 54 DOs. "UT San Antonio" is the undergrad school, not the medical school.

 

[Per4mer8]

While I completely agree with what PMPMD has said, and I basically did that exact thing when applying to all schools not just those in TX, as an MS1 the absolute BEST thing you can do is nail your boards......probably a little early to be getting riled up over DO vs non-DO friendly. But IF you make it through all of medschool without changing your specialty choice (rare) then you will be ahead of the game, again, IF you nail your boards. Good luck.

 

[karizma098]

texas tech in lubbock is DO friendly.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Ditto, though it is very tempting, don't think about this sort of stuff now. Study hard and do well the first 2 years of school. Taking USMLE Step I and crushing it is the best thing you can do.

While I completely agree with what PMPMD has said, and I basically did that exact thing when applying to all schools not just those in TX, as an MS1 the absolute BEST thing you can do is nail your boards......probably a little early to be getting riled up over DO vs non-DO friendly. But IF you make it through all of medschool without changing your specialty choice (rare) then you will be ahead of the game, again, IF you nail your boards. Good luck.

 

[DrRoast]

What exactly is a good USMLE Step 1 Score for a DO applying to MD Anesthesiology?

 

[PMPMD]

What exactly is a good USMLE Step 1 Score for a DO applying to MD Anesthesiology?

Do a search plz

 

[karizma098]

What exactly is a good USMLE Step 1 Score for a DO applying to MD Anesthesiology?

220's or higher.

 

[Jay82]

In the time it takes to post a snide response to someone's question, you could have supplied them with the answer. If you don't know the answer, just remain silent.

 

[PMPMD]

In the time it takes to post a snide response to someone's question, you could have supplied them with the answer. If you don't know the answer, just remain silent.

I didn't post a quick answer because there isn't a "one size fits all" answer to that question. I have sat on the residency adcom at a program that is actually quite "DO friendly," so I'm actually quite knowledgeable about the subject. This question has been asked and answered many times before on this board, and if the asker is really interested, he/she could easily search for the previous posts.

 

[Gern Blansten]

220's or higher.

I would disagree with that number this year. Considering the average step I score for those who get into a residency was 226 last year and step II avg was 235, I think DO students will need to shoot for higher. I know that many DO students out there have >240 and several are >260. 220 is not nearly as competitive as it used to be and is nowhere near average. There is still a bit of stigma with many programs (not saying it is right or wrong), so I think osteopathic students need higher scores on the one metric that is apples to apples with the allopathic students..

It seems to me that DO students are taking this exam much more serious than MD students and spending a huge amount of time studying for it. The highest scores I have seen this year are from DO students.

So, I would say 220 is below average for any student. 235 is a good score. 245 is an excellent score. >250 is an outstanding score.

It is getting harder and harder to differentiate based on step scores as the average scores have gone way up over the years. Five years ago, 220 was a pretty darn good score for anesthesiology applicants. I think a lot of it has to do with how people are studying for the exam. Most I know pay for practice exams and just do thousands of practice questions. I don't know if it actually makes anybody a better doctor, but I think it drastically improves the exam score. Problem is, everyone is doing it, so everyone's score is going up. You just have to make sure yours goes up more than the average.

It wasn't too many years ago (18 or so) that the average step I score was always around 200, so you judged your performance by if you were above or below 200. Those scores above 240ish were extremely rare, now they are commonplace. Back then, the test was not that important. A good score was a big help in the competitive specialties, but otherwise, it wasn't that big of a deal, as long as you passed. The med schools used to have class ranks and the Dean's letter comments could be trusted to separate candidates. Interview offers were typically not sent out until Dean's letters were in hand, which, pre ERAS, would be about Nov 5th. In the ERAS age and with internet discussions, it seems that offers are made much earlier (trying to lock in the best candidates for an interview ) and the PD's have much less information to judge people on. So the AOA candidates and high step score candidates get a bunch of offers. In addition, pre ERAS, you had to send apps to each individual program with a hard copy and get all letter writers to submit letters to each program you applied to. Therefore, people applied to much fewer programs. Now, with just a few clicks of a button, you can apply to 50 or 100 programs for just a bit of extra money but really no extra effort. I remember it being a big deal to apply to 20 programs. Now everybody feels they have to apply to 50 to make sure they don't get left out. It is self perpetuating, because, with everyone applying to more, the likelihood of getting an invite goes way down just because of sheer numbers.

In some ways, the good old days were better. Although the ease of using ERAS is very nice, it does have some unintended consequences.

 

[El Dooderino]

Last year as an independent applicant, which includes DO's, you had a less than 50% chance of matching if your step 1 score was 221-230 and only a 60% chance if your score was 231-250. To reference the post above, only 2 independent applicants total had a step 1 >260 and only 14 with a step 1 > 250 so there really aren't many high scorers in terms of DO's out there. These numbers of course also include FMG's which many programs prefer over DO's. In short, score as high as you can because it can be a difficult road

 

[karizma098]

Last year as an independent applicant, which includes DO's, you had a less than 50% chance of matching if your step 1 score was 221-230 and only a 60% chance if your score was 231-250. To reference the post above, only 2 independent applicants total had a step 1 >260 and only 14 with a step 1 > 250 so there really aren't many high scorers in terms of DO's out there. These numbers of course also include FMG's which many programs prefer over DO's. In short, score as high as you can because it can be a difficult road

I disagree wholeheartedly..very few programs prefer FMG's over D.O's - maybe a select few in NY, none in the midwest, none on the west coast. Also, amongst those that prefer FMG's, they are likely to be crap workhorse programs that don't attract american grads, be it MD's or DO's at all. For matching anesthesia, you are better off MD, Then DO, then FMG, then Carrib, period.

I also disagree with how you interpret the stats. the independent applicants include the carrib/european/asian students who definitely have to score a lot higher to match than DO's do.

I have a step 1 score in the 220s, no step 2, very average grades, and i've got 9 interviews and 1 prematch offer currently ( given, prematch is at a 'away' site where i busted my butt for 2 rotations ) . out of my 9 interviews, 5 are at respectable academic centers, 4 are very decent /non ghetto community programs with good fellowship matches. Also, considering there is another week left in october and a few weeks in november when invites go out, i anticipate at least a few more invites. I know i haven't technically 'matched' yet, but i've got a prematch offer and will likely have 10+ interviews. Nothing special about me at all. 220's is fine, unless you need to be in cali/nyc at a big name program. 230's will be MORE than fine, but i stand by my point that if you apply broadly and don't worry a ton about location, you will definitely match somewhere decent with a 220ish score.

 

[karizma098]

I would disagree with that number this year. Considering the average step I score for those who get into a residency was 226 last year and step II avg was 235, I think DO students will need to shoot for higher. I know that many DO students out there have >240 and several are >260. 220 is not nearly as competitive as it used to be and is nowhere near average. There is still a bit of stigma with many programs (not saying it is right or wrong), so I think osteopathic students need higher scores on the one metric that is apples to apples with the allopathic students..

It seems to me that DO students are taking this exam much more serious than MD students and spending a huge amount of time studying for it. The highest scores I have seen this year are from DO students.

So, I would say 220 is below average for any student. 235 is a good score. 245 is an excellent score. >250 is an outstanding score.

It is getting harder and harder to differentiate based on step scores as the average scores have gone way up over the years. Five years ago, 220 was a pretty darn good score for anesthesiology applicants. I think a lot of it has to do with how people are studying for the exam. Most I know pay for practice exams and just do thousands of practice questions. I don't know if it actually makes anybody a better doctor, but I think it drastically improves the exam score. Problem is, everyone is doing it, so everyone's score is going up. You just have to make sure yours goes up more than the average.

It wasn't too many years ago (18 or so) that the average step I score was always around 200, so you judged your performance by if you were above or below 200. Those scores above 240ish were extremely rare, now they are commonplace. Back then, the test was not that important. A good score was a big help in the competitive specialties, but otherwise, it wasn't that big of a deal, as long as you passed. The med schools used to have class ranks and the Dean's letter comments could be trusted to separate candidates. Interview offers were typically not sent out until Dean's letters were in hand, which, pre ERAS, would be about Nov 5th. In the ERAS age and with internet discussions, it seems that offers are made much earlier (trying to lock in the best candidates for an interview ) and the PD's have much less information to judge people on. So the AOA candidates and high step score candidates get a bunch of offers. In addition, pre ERAS, you had to send apps to each individual program with a hard copy and get all letter writers to submit letters to each program you applied to. Therefore, people applied to much fewer programs. Now, with just a few clicks of a button, you can apply to 50 or 100 programs for just a bit of extra money but really no extra effort. I remember it being a big deal to apply to 20 programs. Now everybody feels they have to apply to 50 to make sure they don't get left out. It is self perpetuating, because, with everyone applying to more, the likelihood of getting an invite goes way down just because of sheer numbers.

In some ways, the good old days were better. Although the ease of using ERAS is very nice, it does have some unintended consequences.

i think you're expectations are a bit inflated. Most of my classmates with 220's have plenty of interviews, i've got a reasonable amount and i was complete very late ( first week of october ). see post above.

 

[El Dooderino]

I disagree wholeheartedly..very few programs prefer FMG's over D.O's - maybe a select few in NY, none in the midwest, none on the west coast. Also, amongst those that prefer FMG's, they are likely to be crap workhorse programs that don't attract american grads, be it MD's or DO's at all. For matching anesthesia, you are better off MD, Then DO, then FMG, then Carrib, period.

I also disagree with how you interpret the stats. the independent applicants include the carrib/european/asian students who definitely have to score a lot higher to match than DO's do.

I have a step 1 score in the 220s, no step 2, very average grades, and i've got 9 interviews and 1 prematch offer currently ( given, prematch is at a 'away' site where i busted my butt for 2 rotations ) . out of my 9 interviews, 5 are at respectable academic centers, 4 are very decent /non ghetto community programs with good fellowship matches. Also, considering there is another week left in october and a few weeks in november when invites go out, i anticipate at least a few more invites. I know i haven't technically 'matched' yet, but i've got a prematch offer and will likely have 10+ interviews. Nothing special about me at all. 220's is fine, unless you need to be in cali/nyc at a big name program. 230's will be MORE than fine, but i stand by my point that if you apply broadly and don't worry a ton about location, you will definitely match somewhere decent with a 220ish score.

I think you're underestimating FMG's. Look at the top programs (BWH, MGH, UCSF) take qualified FMG's over DO's, these aren't crap or workhorse programs. Maybe it's different at other programs. Also, only 65 independent applicants scored between 221-230 and only 32 matched. I'd have to imagine a good amount of the 65 were DO's, especially considering the number of DO's who apply for anesthesia. I disagree the low match rates are entirely because of foreign grads, the numbers just don't work. It's good it worked out for you, but I don't think anyone should feel safe with a mid 220's step score

 

[karizma098]

I think you're underestimating FMG's. Look at the top programs (BWH, MGH, UCSF) take qualified FMG's over DO's, these aren't crap or workhorse programs. Maybe it's different at other programs. Also, only 65 independent applicants scored between 221-230 and only 32 matched. I'd have to imagine a good amount of the 65 were DO's, especially considering the number of DO's who apply for anesthesia. I disagree the low match rates are entirely because of foreign grads, the numbers just don't work. It's good it worked out for you, but I don't think anyone should feel safe with a mid 220's step score

There are qualified FMG's at brigham and mass gen? I didn't really think that was the norm. So what? there are D.O's at university of chicago and hopkins, doesn't make it the standard setting. i'm not underrating FMG's, i'm stating the facts. in anesthesia, or any other field for that matter, american MD's>>american D.O>> foreign grads, period. if someone disagrees with this, they are likely a disgruntled FMG. Many programs will take FMG's who were anesthesiologists in foreign countries, i know that, but even that trend is winding down big time.
again, not stating that certain programs may prefer FMG's for one reason or another, but that is not the norm. most programs will still prefer a DO, if all else in the application is equal...just facts.

Don't believe me. ask most program directors.

 

[Per4mer8]

i think you're expectations are a bit inflated. Most of my classmates with 220's have plenty of interviews, i've got a reasonable amount and i was complete very late ( first week of october ). see post above.

With all due respect interviews ARE different from matching. If you look at the most recent 2011 charting the outcome data only 72 osteopathic students matched anesthesia. Of 1100 and change allopathic applicants only 30 went unmatched in anesthesia while in the independent category 483 applicants (including DO and IMG) a total of 140 matched (72 DO and 68 IMG).

So I think those statistics show that the odds ARE stacked against us as DOs. Do you really think the USMLE scores of the 340+ independent applicants that failed to match were that much lower than the 30 allopathic students that didn't match? Maybe I'm a cynic but I think those numbers show pretty clearly that as a DO your score better be higher than average to give you a decent shot. Does that mean none of those 72 DO applicants got in with a 220? Of course not, but I wouldn't be preaching that a 220 will be "fine".

 

[Gern Blansten]

i think you're expectations are a bit inflated. Most of my classmates with 220's have plenty of interviews, i've got a reasonable amount and i was complete very late ( first week of october ). see post above.

My info and opinion is based on ~15 years of following trends and looking at NRMP data/trends. The USMLE bar has been raised. Take it or leave it. The person asking the question asked what a good step score was. I suspect they want to know what score will get them the interviews at the programs they want. There are a lot of different levels of programs. There are programs that I tell my advisees to avoid if they have the right numbers. If they don't have good numbers, I tell them to apply wider and strongly consider those programs as good back up plans.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

230s as a DO. Not to say you NEED a 230, but one would feel good with 230s.

 

[Surfer]

.

 

[okayplayer]

I think there's probably more to the equation than just a good Step 1. I had a Step 1 in the 220s and then a Step 2 of 270 (taken prior to submitting applications) and ended up getting interview offers at 45 of the 60 or so programs I applied to, including a lot of the really big names (excluding MGH/BWH/Columbia/Stanford/Duke). Also had some good research in the field.

 

[Gern Blansten]

i think you're expectations are a bit inflated. Most of my classmates with 220's have plenty of interviews, i've got a reasonable amount and i was complete very late ( first week of october ). see post above.

My statement that you highlighted was as follows:

So, I would say 220 is below average for any student. 235 is a good score. 245 is an excellent score. >250 is an outstanding score.

The NRMP's data shows that 220 is below average for all students (allo and osteo). The average was 226 last year for step I and 235 for step II. So, by definition, 220 is below average. Those aren't my expectations. That is NRMP data. By extrapolation, I think the numbers I gave for good, excellent, and outstanding are right on the mark based on this year's data (and last year's data too). There are lots of candidates out there scoring in the excellent-outstanding range, and quite a few are osteopathic.

If you are lucky enough to get a "reasonable amount" of interviews with below average numbers, that is great for you. I hope you get a great residency spot, and you probably will.

 

[karizma098]

My statement that you highlighted was as follows:

So, I would say 220 is below average for any student. 235 is a good score. 245 is an excellent score. >250 is an outstanding score.

The NRMP's data shows that 220 is below average for all students (allo and osteo). The average was 226 last year for step I and 235 for step II. So, by definition, 220 is below average. Those aren't my expectations. That is NRMP data. By extrapolation, I think the numbers I gave for good, excellent, and outstanding are right on the mark based on this year's data (and last year's data too). There are lots of candidates out there scoring in the excellent-outstanding range, and quite a few are osteopathic.

If you are lucky enough to get a "reasonable amount" of interviews with below average numbers, that is great for you. I hope you get a great residency spot, and you probably will.

well, my score was a point over 'average' based on the data for when i took step 1, not below average, and when i mention 220's i simply meant it as a range within the '220's, not a 220 exactly.
to me, a 222 is not incredibly different than a 227, but that's just me , i'm an applicant, not an attending.
An average is just that, an average. i'm sure some of the programs i applied to average higher than 220's for their matched candidates, and some probably lower. i don't disagree with what you said regarding what a good , or excellent score is, at face value i just wouldn't consider a 220 'below average' by much, to me a 200 or 210 is 'below average', not a 220...again, just impressions and opinions, can't argue with the data, and naturally it's much better to have a 230 or higher to be 'safe' to match, i just felt that with a score in the 220's and a broad application base one is likely to match, maybe i'm wrong, if i don't take the prematch i guess i'll find out in march.

 

[Gern Blansten]

well, my score was a point over 'average' based on the data for when i took step 1, not below average, and when i mention 220's i simply meant it as a range within the '220's, not a 220 exactly.

I think we are talking about two different things. Average USMLE for all takers is what you seem to be talking about. I am talking about average USMLE for people who successfully matched into anesthesiology last year. For example, the average USMLE for successful dermatology candidates may well have been near 250, but that doesn't mean you can get a derm spot with an "average" USMLE.
Anesthesiology is not in the derm range, but it has certainly seen a large climb in the average successful candidate's score.
Best wishes.

 

[Gern Blansten]

i just wouldn't consider a 220 'below average' by much, to me a 200 or 210 is 'below average', not a 220...again, just impressions and opinions, .

I agree with you, but when a program has over 500 applicants for a handful of spots, it, unfortunately can make a difference in who they invite for the limited interview spots. Sometimes interview selections are just a best guess to try and find the right people to invite.

 

[karizma098]

I agree with you, but when a program has over 500 applicants for a handful of spots, it, unfortunately can make a difference in who they invite for the limited interview spots. Sometimes interview selections are just a best guess to try and find the right people to invite.

i see your point. to be fair, i've gone to ASA, emailed program directors, and expressed individual interest in a lot of programs i got invites at, so maybe i've got the number of interviews i do secondary to that as well, people with higher scores may not have had to 'hustle' as much. i get your point about average 'anesthesia' score on the usmle.