D.O. or Caribbean?

[novacek88]

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M.D.'s cannot participate in osteopathic residencies. D.O.'s can participate in both osteopathic and allopathic residencies. If there is such a competitive specialty that doesn't appreciate the philosophy of osteopathic medicine (which is not likely at least in my part of the world, where D.O.'s are found in practically all residencies and at all hospitals), that specialty will be available as an osteopathic residency. Therefore, no specialty opportunity will be limitied.

You couldn't be more mistaken. What you fail to consider are the number of those osteopathic residencies for a given competitive field like opthalmology. There are not ample DO versions of these residencies in existence. This is a common misperception many first and second year osteopathic students make prior to the match. As an example, there are only two osteopathic plastic surgery fellowships in the entire country. For the large number of DO's completing a general surgery residency, their chances of specializing in plastics is quite limited particularly since allopathic counterparts are reluctant to take DO's. So regardless of the fact that only DO's can apply to their osteopathic versions of these competitive fields, there are so few of them that certain fields are in fact very limited to DO's. There are between 14-20 osteopathic dermatology positions open each year when compared to 240 allopathic dermatology spots. Even with the greater number of allopathic M.D. schools in existance, the odds still slightly favor M.D. applicants in landing a derm spot. It has nothing to do with allopathic programs not respecting the osteopathic philosophy and everything to do with competition. Those allopathic programs receive too many applications from great MD candidates that they feel it isn't fair to accept a DO particularly when osteopathic programs bar M.D. applicants. Sorry for the long explanation but I hoped that erased your confusion?

This is a very hot issue at the moment in regards to osteopathic education. Many DO's are very upset with the AOA for opening more schools and failing to create more programs particularly in these competitive fields. When our own best students fail to find opportunities in competitive fields, it is a major concern. Perhaps, some of us will do something about this issue when we graduate.

 

[jhug]

This is a very hot issue at the moment in regards to osteopathic education. Many DO's are very upset with the AOA for opening more schools and failing to create more programs particularly in these competitive fields. When our own best students fail to find opportunities in competitive fields, it is a major concern. Perhaps, some of us will do something about this issue when we graduate

this is the very reason i feel that the AOA is a poor excuse of an organization! Here they come to my school and then condemn us for an act that they are pushing us to do (allopathic residency)...
they say they have no power over opening of new schools, they say they have no power over the opening of new residencies, they say they have no power over states that require an outdated AOA accredited internship year requirement...they are telling us that they HAVE NO POWER AT ALL!!! they can't do a single thing for the betterment of the profession that they claim to represent. Many things will need to change before i give them any $$ to join the club (after school that is)

sorry, i guess this post probably belongs is a different thread🙂

 

[OSUdoc08]

Another issue is that AOA residencies are 1-year longer then ACGME residencies. I plan to do an ACGME residency because there is no reason for me to do an extra year unless I want to practice in selected states.

The only problem there is that I will find out if I get in an AOA residency and have to decide on it before I even know I will get in an ACGME residency.

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

What you fail to consider are the number of those osteopathic residencies for a given competitive field like opthalmology.

Its spelled "Ophthalmology"...🙂

DOCTORSAIB

 

[novacek88]

this is the very reason i feel that the AOA is a poor excuse of an organization! Here they come to my school and then condemn us for an act that they are pushing us to do (allopathic residency)...
they say they have no power over opening of new schools, they say they have no power over the opening of new residencies, they say they have no power over states that require an outdated AOA accredited internship year requirement...they are telling us that they HAVE NO POWER AT ALL!!! they can't do a single thing for the betterment of the profession that they claim to represent. Many things will need to change before i give them any $$ to join the club (after school that is)

sorry, i guess this post probably belongs is a different thread🙂

I think the problem is greed. These administrators at private schools would rather allocate their funds toward creating new schools like the newly opened podiatry school at AZCOM because that affects their bottom line. To create new residencies, the administrators gain nothing as far as their paycheck is concerned. They would actually have to spend a significant amount of money to lure attendings and create the infrastructure of say a ...neurosurgery residency. The return on investment is much better in opening a new CRNA program of a school or an entirely new school itself than it is to establish more residencies.

The only hope is that our future students who will run the AOA in the future aren't lured by the greed of the current administration and will do the right thing. And I think that will happen because most adminstrators in the AOA and DO schools are not even DO's. AZCOM's president is not even a physician or a former health care professional. Many of the executive staff consists of PhD's as opposed to former DO's and physicians. I think in the future that will change when our own people start running the joint.

 

[Wo1verine7DO]

Let's say in the future, that we all join the AOA and run for offices and then change things...I asked the President about that and he just brushed my question off about residencies when he visited my school. I'd like to join the AOA in the future and run things a different way...that's the only reason I'd pay them.
As for Ross, I know some people that went there...its a tough living environment 300+competing students, plus its near a volcano can't be 100% it won't erupt and destroy all the permanent records, I think that happened to AUC on its old location. AUC its on a nice island now cause its a tourist destination,but cost of living is expensive$$$$$. St. George is reasonable, its not like the US, but its not bad like Ross.
The advantage of DO is that you won't have to change money, adjust to a new environment, language, culture, while learning medicine, the DO philosophy is so similar to the MD philosophy nowadays anyway unless you just want the degree name. Its tough already to do it here in the US, but if you really want to be a doctor, apply there. There is also Tel Aviv University in Israel, they allow their students to be licensed in NY and have a deal with Columbia University...I have a friend who goes there and its similar to a US program and in a nicer area...pretty safe not like what you see on the news.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Sucks to be beat out of a position by a foreigner.

Easy there, tiger. And don't shoot the messenger!

 

[PACtoDOC]

Another issue is that AOA residencies are 1-year longer then ACGME residencies. I plan to do an ACGME residency because there is no reason for me to do an extra year unless I want to practice in selected states.

The only problem there is that I will find out if I get in an AOA residency and have to decide on it before I even know I will get in an ACGME residency.

You are mistaken Justin. DO residencies are not a year longer. The rotating intern year us subtracted from the number of total allopathic years in residency normally. For instance, DO FP residencies are 2 years but do not include the 1 year rotating intern year always. Allopathic FP programs are also 3 years, but include the intern year. DO IM residencies are 2 + 1 as well, while allopathic ones are 3 + 0. Still equals 3!! There are a few exceptions but the rule is generally the same. EM DO residencies are all 4 years including the one year internship. 25% of MD EM residencies are 4 years including intern year while the others are 3 including intern year. This is a common misperception among new DO students.

 

[jhug]

the kisser with the "extra" year is that if you don't do an AOA approved residency (which is possible due to the AOA's inability to encourage the opening new residencies...not new schools) than we have to do an "extra" year at an AOA approved internship site to be eligible to practice in all 50 states (there are 5 states that require the AOA internship year) The AOA has already publically stated that it is unable, incapable, worthless (take your pick) of lobbying those states to change the limitation...

 

[xray1murphy]

I have to agree with Dr. Nick (page1), this idea that DO education is inferior to the MD side is ludicrous. I to scored in the 96th percentile on the MCAT, but choose to go DO because of the philosophy and the DO that I have worked with. As for fewer DO residence in MD residencies, that goes to say to be common sense; first, because the main focus of the DO schools is primary care, and also I think the last year averages for graduating students was something like a 5 to 1 graduation gap (please correct me if I am wrong). It is like anything else, you can go either way, but you will have to work no matter which area you go into. I have DO friends that went to John Hopkins for Orthopedic hand fellowships, and Baylor for Cardiology residencies, it is all about what you make of it?Now as for the FMG, good luck, I hope it is different than getting your masters, those people had a tuff time finding spots in programs, and finding jobs after graduation. So if it were up to me, I would decide if you want to go MD or DO and retake the MCAT?

PS with an average of 7, there are schools in the US, both MD and DO that will accept you,,, ie MD North Dakota (have a friend who went there) or DO WV,,, depends on how hard you want to push the issue.

PSS I did not do much better than you the first time I took the test, but the second was much better?.buy a review book on ebay

Good Luck and do not give up if this is what you want......

 

[Vukken99]

I would not compare DO as an option to caribbean schools.

a DO is an american graduated physician....
so you can always claimed american grad american trained....

The other thing is I don't think DO schools are taking underachievers if that is what certain individuals are thinking.

I had magna cum laude 3.87 overall GPA 3.7 in sciences
and I scored 10 on each section on the MCATs back in 96....
So You can't say DOs are taking low score people.....

I only applied to DO and I am doing DO all the way now....

And, I am pretty busy these days...
Just took ATLS in las vegas trauma center very good course by the way.

I am looking around for some weekend PALS and AOLS to add to my credentials....

But, DO are equally qualified........
I would not listen to some losers out there cuz there are many i have seen during my med student clinical rotation DO and MD students alike.

 

[meanderson]

I had magna cum laude 3.87 overall GPA 3.7 in sciences
and I scored 10 on each section on the MCATs back in 96....
So You can't say DOs are taking low score people.....
.

Your reasoning here is extraordinarily poor. Because you have solid scores that somehow means that DO schools don't take "low score people"? You're one example out of a few thousand osteopathic students admitted every year. I'd rather look at class averages than extrapolate the single data point that your scores represent.

 

[flighterdoc]

I am looking around for some weekend PALS and AOLS to add to my credentials....
.

Try http://www.cpc.mednet.ucla.edu/

 

[Vukken99]

I can say at least those colleagues who had graduated with me had excellent credentials...

One friend matched allopathic urology in ny.
The other two orthopedics, me general surgery..later neuro...
many had gone to ER actually so many of them...

I think certain ways we had matched better than many allopathic schools.

Now My other friend had 3.7 and 33 on MCATS...and most I know had score in the average of 30 so I am not sure where they are getting those numbers...

But, I do agree just like MDs there are many DOs who are really bad clinically regardless of their past academic background...

What I have seen over the years is really not the smartest one being the great physician but the most caring one is usually the best one.....

If you care about a patient you look it up if you don't know about it...
If you don't then you just go home and sleep....

Some learn something new or they get elated to see a patient improve.....

Oh well enough of this old BS of MD and DO...

One thing I do agree MDs are lucky cuz your CME requirements for license renewal is not mandatory like DOs...and AMA accepts online CME credits

 

[awdc]

I get the impression that many people on this thread aren't fully informed of the more popular Caribbean med schools (i.e. SGU, Ross, AUC). These schools have a huge advantage over other foreign schools in having their students match into residencies, including some competitive specialties, provided that you are a U.S. citizen or resident. I would be so bold as to call it a virtual guarantee. The reason for this is that all our rotations are done with hospitals in the U.S. Furthermore, (I can only speak for Ross) there should be no reason for us to be able to do all our rotations (cores and electives) at ACGME programs if we want to. Some really don't care since they have no intention of practicing in a few of the states with the more stringent requirements. To clarify an earlier post, we do not need to do our own work in getting rotations even though that option is open. Like many U.S. med school, they're set up for us based on our preference. Basically, licensure and matching into a residency really aren't issues.

I think the argument that one should go DO because he/she would be an American-trained physician is null. Like I said, Carib grads do their rotations and residencies in the U.S. It's like saying at least as an IMG, I'll have a MD instead of a DO.

 

[Vukken99]

if you are foreign grad always foreign grad..

I am a practicing physician and I see this on a daily basis...

If you own your practice I guess it does not matter but people always talk anyhow...

But I am not against caribbean schools...

 

[awdc]

if you are foreign grad always foreign grad..

I am a practicing physician and I see this on a daily basis...

If you own your practice I guess it does not matter but people always talk anyhow...

But I am not against caribbean schools...

True. But I think we agree that people will always talk about both DO's and IMG's. And both certainly have their issues and I think it depends which issues someone would want to put up with. To me, the issues all kind of balance out... If it's not this, it's that... and then people from both sides who feel strongly about a certain issue will then say DO is better or IMG is better. I'll admit that I would have rather gone DO. Only because they match a greater percentage of people in some competitive specialties. However, I sure would be hating how I'll have to keep explaining to friends and family what a DO is and taking time to learn OMM. Not that I'm against it, I'd rather spend more time studying other aspects of medicine.

 

[Vukken99]

I don't mind at all in explaining to a patient or colleague of my role as a DO

But, most of times they really dont ask at all....
And, I am proud to be a DO anyhow.....

I do some muscle energy techniques to patients with musculoskeletal ailments and stuff...it is all good...

 

[jhug]

awdc, i appreciate you honest, un-attacking opinion. It is refreshing and productive. i really hope that open-minded individuals like you (me, and a lot of others on this thread) get to work together and biases will be a thing of the past.

 

[Robz]

In the end in this discussion you have to do two things.

1) research your options

2) do what is best for you

I looked into carribbean schools and I looked into osteopathic schools

I wrote down criteria like location, school curriculum, tuition, rotations, and general happiness of myself in getting my ass kicked in school for the next few years.

In the end I choose my osteopathic schools over applying to the carribbean and my allopathic applications. This is what worked for me.

What matters in the end is this. I don't care if your an MD, DO, FMG/IMG when the patient's health is on the line and I am consulting you for an opinion/referal I am going to do it based on your knowledge and patient care. I want a damn good physician to work with and I think all schools offer that as an option.

Again, its up to you what path you want to take to work in the united states as a medical physician.

(oh and a side note for those that have not read it but the first aid for step one has a pretty cool capter on IMG's and applying to the US)

 

[TTSD]

In the end, whatever floats your boat. Just be sure to research your options very carefully.

If you go to one of the Big 3 Carib schools, they'll do more than an adequate job of training you in medicine, the same can be said with DO schools. Just make sure you fully research what you're getting in to.

If you want that MD, then go Carib or keep trying for US but make sure you realize you're going to a third world country added to the rigors of medical school.

 

[Saffron304]

It goes without saying that in communities, especially around DO schools, it is the norm to go to a DO OR a MD. There are many 'mixed' practices, clinics and hospitals that are commonplace. There is no social or professional differences between the two. They inquire and postulate about the same things, have the exact same purpose and the patients see no difference. It is slowly but SURELY becoming a complete equality...again, especially starting at those areas producing the DO graduates along side MDs. As for the caribbean schools, they are completely equal as well...people that attend there have a great passion for medicine and want to dive into their education and not wait another year for acceptance to a physical US one. My Uncle is a graduate of Ross and has a wonderfully successful ENT (ear, nose, throat) practice. I did have a choice to pick b/n MD and DO, I picked DO, because I am truly interested in OMT and am undeniably impressed with the osteopathic oath. A choice should be made concerning your own preferences and interests, without fear of less respect and acceptance. It's just not that way in the long run. Best of luck to everyone...with a true desire and passion for medicine, you can't go wrong either way.

 

[azcomdiddy]

I think the argument that one should go DO because he/she would be an American-trained physician is null. Like I said, Carib grads do their rotations and residencies in the U.S. It's like saying at least as an IMG, I'll have a MD instead of a DO.

Yeah, Carib grads may do their rotations and residency in the U.S. but they don't have much flexibility as to the type, quality and location of these rotations and residencies like DO's do.

I wish to go into ENT or Orthopedic surgery. There is no way in hell that I could accomplish this as an IMG. Yeah, I'm sure there are three or four IMG's that match each year out of the 1000 or so total IMG applicants. Judging by those odds, I might as well play craps in Vegas. As a DO, I have a realistic chance of nailing one of these fields. Not only will most allopathic program directors prefer me over an IMG of equal standing, I stand a good chance at matching in a DO version of one of these residencies if I fail to do so in an allopathic one. I would much rather be a practicing ENT or an Orthopod as opposed to being an MD and stuck in a field that I'm not interested in like internal medicine. Trust me, an MD isn't worth that much if it means I can't practice in the field I dreamed of.

My friends and family aren't going to ask about my DO status because they aren't going to know or care what it means. They will just know that I'm a
doctor that performs surgery at some local hospital. Just because pre-meds endlessly discuss the distinction between MD and DO, don't think the normal public does. I doubt my Uncle Fred at Thanksgiving is going to ask me about what a DO is? Both my Uncle Fred and my friends are going to be busy getting wasted and screaming at the television during a football game. 🙂

 

[dynamicrhythm17]

why in the world would you go to a carrib-bean school if you have the chance to go to a DO school? how does that make ANY sense at all?????? 😕

 

[azcomdiddy]

Don't listen to Carib student's rationalizations on why they wanted to go to the Caribean. It's not because they wanted to attend medical school on the islands or because they think St. George is such a great medical school. People go to the Caribean for one simple reason: the MD. That's it. And that is the dumbest reason of all considering that every physician you will ever work with will know that you are an IMG even if patients don't. If you are worried about other doctors talking behind your back as a DO, then be prepared to receive the same treatment as an IMG. At least some people choose to be a DO. No one chooses SGU over a U.S. medical school. And if someone claims that he did then he is lying.

 

[Gleevec]

Don't listen to Carib student's rationalizations on why they wanted to go to the Caribean. It's not because they wanted to attend medical school on the islands or because they think St. George is such a great medical school. People go to the Caribean for one simple reason: the MD. That's it. And that is the dumbest reason of all considering that every physician you will ever work with will know that you are an IMG even if patients don't. If you are worried about other doctors talking behind your back as a DO, then be prepared to receive the same treatment as an IMG. At least some people choose to be a DO. No one chooses SGU over a U.S. medical school. And if someone claims that he did then he is lying.

A lot of your logic could be applied to discriminate against DOs as well, which Id rather not restate at this point.

Its extremely ironic, and pretty tragic, that some DOs feel the need to bash against their Carribbean MD counterparts. And then you get upset when some MDs bash DOs? Gimme a break 🙄

 

[Luck]

A lot of your logic could be applied to discriminate against DOs as well, which Id rather not restate at this point.

Its extremely ironic, and pretty tragic, that some DOs feel the need to bash against their Carribbean MD counterparts. And then you get upset when some MDs bash DOs? Gimme a break 🙄

No we don't need to give you a break. It seems you are starting havoc again huh gleevec? What azcomdiddy says is basically right on and I guess it is too dificult for you to see that for whatever reason.

Why don't you go and attack people out of the ostepathic forum as you so commonly do and leave this forum to the big boys. 🙄

 

[Gleevec]

No we don't need to give you a break. It seems you are starting havoc again huh gleevec? What azcomdiddy says is basically right on and I guess it is too dificult for you to see that for whatever reason.

Why don't you go and attack people out of the ostepathic forum as you so commonly do and leave this forum to the big boys. 🙄

Havoc? LOL. Attacking people? HAHA. I specifically DIDNT mention the main criticisms of DO.

If you weren't being sophistic you should point out the phrases. Heck, if you really think its that bad, please report the post to the administrators. And tell me what they say. Im interested to see how my post here is somehow inflammatory, yet you telling people who get rejected from med school that they "suck at interviewing and you probably come off either like a jerk, too nervous, or too apathetic."

Listen Luck, Im sorry you feel the need to insult everyone because you didnt turn out to be very smart or kind. But the fact is, its you who has the issues here. You like trying to make people feel stupid because you have your own inadequacy issues with your intelligence.

Anyway, I dont really care what you have to say. You've said enough on these forums and Im surprised you havent been banned.

==========================

In any case, it is extremely hypocritical for DOs to go around insulting and berating Carribean grads and then complain about how you are not respected by MDs. Gimme a break. If you want to be respected, you're going to need to treat others with respect. If you look at a lot of the threads Luck has posted on, she has pretty much insulted allos left and right. That doesnt do you guys any good. A lot of the posters on SDN are very early off in their medical careers and have no experience with DOs, including myself.

Luckily for me though, there have been several DOs on this forum that have shown me what its all about (DrMom, QuinnNSU, and others). But even with that, I am extremely soured by posters like Luck here and others who feel the need to berate allos or Carribeans simply because of their own issues. Its unfortunate that many people on SDN have had their first experience with DOs be quotes such as these (taken from Luck's postings, as an example):

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=135653

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=136794

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=135768&page=1&pp=25

There's a lot more where that came from, but the fact is, if you read those posts, Luck sours a lot of people into thinking DOs are MD (US and Carribbean) rejects with inferiority issues that require insulting allos and preallos-- which isnt true for most DOs at all.

Anyway, I dont expect Luck to change her behavior, because it really seems as if her life's sole pleasure is insulting preallos and allos and then saying "oh I was defending osteopaths". Yeah, telling someone who got rejected from med schools in thread that hadnt even had a mention of DOs that "It is utterly sad and ridiculous given your MCAT of 38 that you didn't get in. Sorry to tell you this but you suck at interviewing and you probably come off either like a jerk, too nervous, or too apathetic. Improve your interview skills and you probably will get accepted. Apply to DO and caribbean schools because you'll need the help." Yeah, that's "defending DOs" 🙄

So yeah, if you see Luck posting one of her inflammatory posts in another forum and a bunch of allos jumping at her and her degree. Well, its not so much that allos have a beef with DOs. Most of us have little experience with them at our level. Its just that Luck's insults have become associated with her DO diatribes, and of course the natural reaction is not only to insult Luck, but unfortunately some will associate that behavior with the degree in general.

 

[Saffron304]

Its just that Luck's insults have become associated with her DO diatribes, and of course the natural reaction is not only to insult Luck, but unfortunately some will associate that behavior with the degree in general.

I really hope it doesn't get to that point...a person that offends doesn't represent the whole group. In every situation in life there are bad seeds, with DOs and MDs alike. Let's focus on the positive of things...especially towards the people that are more than willing to do so. Gleevec, you have fortunately had some good exposure (besides your situation with Luck) here at SDN and will someday be working alongside DOs. You are highly intelligent (no need for me to tell you, I'm sure) and are already open to learning about the similarities more so than differences between DOs and MDs. Actions and experience will speak louder than words.
Many Blessings,
Dean

 

[Luck]

Gleevec, you are the epitome of hypocrisy. These are all real quotes from Gleevec. You, sir, put people down anytime someone disagrees with you. You should take your own advice and treat others with respect.

Going to the bookstore is useless? LOL, all the data you want is right there you cheapskate. Won't even pay for the gas? Man, some people are such lazy mofos. Do you want your mommy to fill in your AMCAS too?

Bullcrap stinkycheese you dont know what youre talking about. How the hell would you know the cases Im referring to anyway? And how the hell can you say "Legacies aren't getting in with 2.5's and 25's, they're getting in with 3.4-3.5's and 28-30's." Do you know 100% of the cases? I dont claim to, but I do know of specific cases in the 25ish range.

And yes, some legacies have average matriculant stats and got in, just like some URMS have average matriculant stats and got in. Want a cookie?

But yes, there have definitely been 25ish MCATers getting in from legacy.

And Im getting really sick of these anti-AA but pro-legacy hypocrites who basically want their rich pasty white arse to be able to buy their way into medical school because they're too dumb to get in otherwise, but are racist enough to not want to give people with an ACTUAL DISADVANTAGE in life a chance. And that doesnt even count socioeconomic disadvantages, which to me are the biggest deal (regardless of race).

Wow, to think that I would be arguing for AA. But the hypocrisy is being said by some of the pro-legacy anti-AA bigots is just too much. 🙄

But seriously, go back, and since you obviously don't read very well, reread my post more slowly. Get over yourself, its the surgeons doing the work anyway...

Also, have fun with the nurse anesthesiologists Mr. Money, or should I just say, "gas"?

Gimme a break, med students dont have an average IQ of 140 unless you're talking about Harvard or something.

Still, YOUR 140 is pretty pathetic coming from someone trying to brag about it

Uh, perhaps you have been sleeping for the past decade, and in that case, I cant blame you. Or maybe you've been brain washed. In any case, Im sorry you have been fooled into thinking that. No one in this country should be so misled.

And ankitovich has a penchant for taking a perfectly politically neutral thread and ruining it with his angry idiotic ramblings. Well, at least he's good at SOMETHING.

Given how how have been attacking every other person who disagrees with you, you have no right to be raggin on me. Stop trying to play the nice guy and analyze yourself before you analyze me. At least I can admit that at times I say things that are kind of harsh.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Gleevec, THANK YOU. That was very, very necessary.

I am a pre-osteopathic student, it should be clear to future graduates of Caribbean medical schools that as a whole, Osteopathic physicians do not look down on Caribbean physicians. It's a personal choice of yours to pursue an MD degree and personally, I respect that a lot for someone to move so far and go through so much to reach his/her goal.

I am from a family of physicians, have several friends who are physicians and have done my time volunteering. I know from my experience with allopathic and osteopathic physicians I have been around, this disrespect that LUCK has shown is not representative of the real attitudes out there from your future U.S. allo or osteo counterparts. Your interactions are really going to be about how you can save this person's life or cure his/her disease.

Your hard work and dedication actually gains my respect.

Kick some arse!!

 

[Luck]

this disrespect that LUCK has shown is not representative of the real attitudes out there from your future U.S. allo or osteo counterparts. Your interactions are really going to be about how you can save this person's life or cure his/her disease.

Your hard work and dedication actually gains my respect.

Kick some arse!!

Didn't you just see the disrepect that gleevec has done in his previous posts? This is sad that you are still against me. I'll remember that, OnMyWayThere. 👎

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Didn't you just see the disrepect that gleevec has done in his previous posts? This is sad that you are still against me. I'll remember that, OnMyWayThere. 👎

That's good... remember that anytime you attack people and make this profession that I want to get into look bad, I will step in and clarify.

It is important for those out there to know that your attitude does not represent the attitudes of the medical profession as a whole

 

[Luck]

That's good... remember that anytime you attack people and make this profession that I want to get into look bad, I will step in and clarify.

It is important for those out there to know that your attitude does not represent the attitudes of the medical profession as a whole

I don't make the osteopathic profession look bad. When arrogant people like gleevec talk about how all DOs have a chip on their shoulder and we're so defensive I'll speak up.

When you back him and his views you show disrepect for the osteopathic profession. You should think twice about applying to a DO school if you're not going to support your fellow osteopathic people.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

I don't make the osteopathic profession look bad. When arrogant people like gleevec talk about how all DOs have a chip on their shoulder and we're so defensive I'll speak up.

When you back him and his views you show disrepect for the osteopathic profession. You should think twice about applying to a DO school if you're not going to support your fellow osteopathic people.

Your posts have warranted these posts from Gleevec. That is why I said I to have clear it up. Because we do not have a chip on our shoulder.

I don't need to think twice about applying to a DO school... I've thought about it already and am very confident about my decision. It is what I want to do.

I do support my fellow osteopathic people, that is why I responded to this thread. So that others do not think we disrespect other medical professionals as you have.

I understand your intentions may not be to disrespect anybody, but it comes off that way as you can tell from what others have said. And that should be cleared up whether it is your general attitude or how it comes off on a thread.

 

[Luck]

This is what gleevec has said or mocked about the osteopathic profession.

And frankly, by acting like a bunch of spoiled PMS-ridden moral superiors, well, you have to wonder why some people would choose to look down on you.

Trust me, some of you aren't helping your cause of bringing more respect to the profession by acting like prissy constipated sorority girls lashing out at anyone who makes an observation that is *gasp* contrary to your overly rosy view of your degree.

Apparently some prospective DOs dont have the social skills to understand humor, as an earlier response of yours to a joke I made was:

At NYCOM they "treat the whole person" so they actually ask you to come to their hospital.

At Cornell and Columbia, since they're MD schools they only focus on the disease, so they want you to mail in your ailing organs by FedEx to be examined, repaired, and sent back.

🙄

PS. It doesnt matter what MDs think of DOs. If anything DOs are increasingly guilty of disrespecting their MD counterparts, so excuse my sarcasm.

By defending someone with these views, it shows you don't respect the osteopathic profession.

 

[tkim]

Hi,

This thread is becoming increasingly pointless, with all the bickering. If this keeps up, I will have no choice but to close this thread. Please keep civil.

 

[Luck]

Hi,

This thread is becoming increasingly pointless, with all the bickering. If this keeps up, I will have no choice but to close this thread. Please keep civil.

You are right. Sorry about that tkim. Sometimes I get too fired up. 😀

 

[azcomdiddy]

A lot of your logic could be applied to discriminate against DOs as well, which Id rather not restate at this point.

Its extremely ironic, and pretty tragic, that some DOs feel the need to bash against their Carribbean MD counterparts. And then you get upset when some MDs bash DOs? Gimme a break 🙄

Nothing is ironic because I agree with you. My logic does apply to DO's and I have never said otherwise. DO are seen as being inferior by some physicians and that will probably never change. I'm not bashing Carib grads; we are in the same boat. However, I'm just stating the obvious that some physicians and nurses discriminate against IMG's regardless if they have an M.D. It's just that Carib grads think that their M.D. will shield them from the discrimination that DO's face because of their initials. That is their entire reason for going to the islands in the first place. That logic is inherantly flawed because the people responsible for 90% of the discrimination are not patients but your fellow physicians and other medical staff. Doctors and nurses know you are an IMG and thus you will not receive any better treatment than a DO. You can't hide that you are an IMG from your colleagues. So if you are worried about a DO reputation, don't be. You won't receive any better treatment as an IMG M.D. In their eyes, an IMG M.D. is not the same as a U.S. M.D. so don't consider you a part of their club.


So basically if you are going to receive the same treatment as a DO, you might as well take all the benefits that DO's receive like greater specialization opportunities and increased flexibility with rotating and matching.

Personally, I'm going to look out for my IMG brothers and sisters because I know what it's like to be considered second fiddle. We should stick together. If someone realistically can't get into a U.S. M.D. or DO school, then one should go to the Carribean. But no one should ever choose a Carribean school over a DO simply because they think they will be safer as an M.D. That's just pure stupidity as I have already explained why.

 

[VentdependenT]

Folks should go carrib if they THINK that having D.O. after their name will somehow impact their future. The reality is it doesn't. I can't stand bitter people and I sure as hell don't want to hear people whine about becomming an osteopath, let alone being a physician in general.

Ever hear the phrase "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." Its appliciable countless SDN threads on this subject matter.

As far as NRMP/SFMATCH residency placement goes it has always been USMD>DO>USIMG. DO's have a leg up on USIMG in that there are ALWAYS subspecialty surg & rads available as osteopathic residencies. If you want to specialize you can even if you don't have a 240+ USMLE, insane letters, wicked clinicals, and outstanding research experience. Something to consider.

 

[aucgrad110]

this thread should not be asked in this forum or a carib forum. each will only give biased answers. i happened to matriculate into a DO program back in 1999. i had to leave 2/3 into my 1st semester due to family reasons and took a deferment for a year. the situation didnt improve so i had to give away my place in the next class. i did however go to AUC in st. maarten afterwards. i actually have been to both places and can compare since i just finished my clinicals in the states. i will not name the DO school that i went to but the education at AUC (at least the 1st semester) was superior to the DO program. AUC prepared me for the USMLE which i passed with ease. my observation after the new start was that there was not enough time given in the lab in anatomy. the DO program had so many other labs to attend that it felt as if they were squeezing everything into the first semester. AUC is modeled after the program at baylor med school and anatomy lab was scheduled every day. the proffessors were not Phd's like at the DO school. they were all MD's from many american schools. we have visiting profs from harvard, ucla, johns hopkins etc.

the point of this post is that many (not all) DO biased opinions are being given. i for one did not care what letters are behind my name. a doctor is a doctor.

here are the facts. if you have doubts about the whole DO thing than go to the carib. the letters will follow you for the rest of your life so you better like them. if you want to specialize then go to DO. IMG's can technically go into any residency but they are low on the pecking order. me, i just wanted to be an internist. i do know many collegues from AUC that did fellowships after internal medicine. the hardest residency is derm (almost impossible). i know people in surgery that had a fair time getting it. i wont lie, it wasnt as easy as a US school. but it can happen.

i cant really talk for other caribs, but AUC CAN get residencies in ANY state. i read some false info on this thread earlier. the big three (st george, ross, AUC) can practice anywhere. The life on st maarten is definetely not 3rd world. it is practically like being back home (ofcourse casinos there...lol).

so to sum it up---

DO--- if want to go into derm, ortho surg... etc AND dont mind the DO thing
IMG (big three)-- primary care (internal med, fam prac, peds), ob gyn, surg

this was just the OTHER side of the story and i have seen both sides

 

[Sharky]

DO--- if want to go into derm, ortho surg... etc AND dont mind the DO thing
IMG (big three)-- primary care (internal med, fam prac, peds), ob gyn, surg

Actually this logic doesn't work. If you say that it is easier to specialize as a DO then why go IMG if you just want primary care. As a DO, you can specialize and go into primary care, ob-gyn, surgery just as easily if not more easily than IMG since primary care is not as competitive.

The only reason you wouldn't go DO over IMG is the letters. That makes much more sense and you should have just stated it like that. How do you like them apples.

 

[aucgrad110]

you are right. it doesnt make much sense the way i put it. let me clarify.


ill do a better summation. if the DO letters bother you, dont be hesitant to go to the big 3 in the carib. you will be trying to hide the letters for the rest of your life. you can still achieve your goal even if you want to specialize. however, the more specialized you go, the harder it is to get a residency as an IMG. dont be afraid to go to the carib if you want to go into the fields that i mentioned in my previous post. they should not be hard to get into providing you do ok on the USMLE's. bare minimum wont cut it for surgery. although i dont think it would cut it even in the state MD programs.

however beware, the only carib schools that you are allowed to practice in all 50 states is AUC, SGU, and ROSS. there are no exceptions. SABA had a site visit recently from california and should be online for all 50 sates soon. but dont let the other schools convince you otherwise. if you go to a school that is not approved in all 50 states (i.e. california is a problem for the other schools) there is no way that you can practice there. they wont care if you aced the USMLE's, did your residency at harvard, and are board certified in 10 different specialties. so be careful to choose only the carib schools that are real schools with real facilities.

 

[raptor5]

When arrogant people like gleevec talk about how all DOs have a chip on their shoulder and we're so defensive I'll speak up.

By Luck

Truth is some DO's actually do have a chip on their shoulder regardless whether they show it or not.

I don't need to think twice about applying to a DO school

By OnMyWayThere

I have thought more than twice about applying to a DO school and in the end that is all applied to.

 

[raptor5]

This thread is becoming increasingly pointless, with all the bickering. If this keeps up, I will have no choice but to close this thread.

You can't be serious. Freedom of speech. that is like the networks biasing what we are hearing during conventions b/c of political agenda. Oh wait that already happens. I say let it continue to bloodshed. Personally I think it is entertaining, maybe not as nuch as niptuck but that is not on until Tuesday.

 

[raptor5]

Folks should go carrib if they THINK that having D.O. after their name will somehow impact their future. The reality is it doesn't.

VentDependent, in a recent PRS thread did you not agree to the fact that a DO degree would hurt your chances of matching into PRS program. I assume that PRS is the exception and not the norm. Plus you advocate taking the USMLE exam which is not required for DO students unless they wish to match at competitive programs and specialties. Do you mean that DO does not impact you unless you make concessions e.g. score higher on USMLE than allo counterparts and excel more than those allo students applying. But still, are there not some specialties and PD's that are going to be biased. I guess this is the name of the game, for us to prove that we are not only equals but better than some (note some) of our allo counterparts to gain acceptance into what is notoriously an allo realm.

 

[VentdependenT]

VentDependent, in a recent PRS thread did you not agree to the fact that a DO degree would hurt your chances of matching into PRS program. I assume that PRS is the exception and not the norm. Plus you advocate taking the USMLE exam which is not required for DO students unless they wish to match at competitive programs and specialties. Do you mean that DO does not impact you unless you make concessions e.g. score higher on USMLE than allo counterparts and excel more than those allo students applying. But still, are there not some specialties and PD's that are going to be biased. I guess this is the name of the game, for us to prove that we are not only equals but better than some (note some) of our allo counterparts to gain acceptance into what is notoriously an allo realm.

Why don't you quote the rest of my thread. Its tough as hell to get into PRS...I don't care where you went to school. Being a DO won't help. Compared to an IMG though I definitely wouldn't consider it a hinderance.

Yes you would need to be as good or better than the average MD applying in that or any other surgical subspecialty. Those are tough shoes to fill indeed as there are no slouches landing interviews in those fields.

BTW, we're all equal once we hit internship. All scutsters.

 

[azcomdiddy]

i actually have been to both places and can compare since i just finished my clinicals in the states. i will not name the DO school that i went to but the education at AUC (at least the 1st semester) was superior to the DO program.

You said that you had to leave for family reasons but starting medical school in the Caribean wouldn't exactly allow you to be close to your family. Sorry, I just find it hard to believe that you were forced to leave school for family reasons for 2 years no less, and then you chose to go to AUC over your DO school because your DO school was such a bad experience...all this based on just 2/3 of a semester at your DO school. It sounds like you were dismissed or were afraid of failing out of school and you ran to AUC as a last resort. We all know students in our class that started with us in the fall and had to start at Ross or AUC in January. And like you, I'm sure those guys are saying they left their DO school because they wanted to go.

AUC prepared me for the USMLE which i passed with ease.

Many of your classmates were not as fortunate because AUC's pass rate is in the low 80's on average which is lower than all DO schools. And this is suprising because most Carib students spend longer studying for the USMLE than U.S. graduates. Most Carib students take 3-6 entire months to prep for Step I. Most U.S. M.D. and DO usually only spend a month prepping for Step 1. Even with all of this extra prep time, you still do worse on the boards. I asked a couple of Ross and AUC people why they spend so time studying for Step 1. They said they need to do better on the boards that their U.S. counterparts because of the prejudice against IMG's. And they said that the teaching at their school was so poor that they had to teach themselves everything all over again for the boards.

the proffessors were not Phd's like at the DO school. they were all MD's from many american schools. we have visiting profs from harvard, ucla, johns hopkins etc.

The first year at U.S. M.D. schools is taught nearly entirely by PhDs. And AUC has many PhD's on their staff as well. Also, based on what I have heard from students at AUC, their professors are fairly lousy and the school is essentially a self-taught process. One AUC student told me that it was a correspondence course because the teaching was atrocious. Many of your professors are M.D. from third world countries that are barely fluent in English.

the letters will follow you for the rest of your life so you better like them.

And the reputation among your colleauges of being a foreign trained doctor will stick with you the rest of your life especially if you are an American citizen. Carib medical schools are considered diploma mills because they take anyone. Ross and AUC didn't even require the MCAT just a couple of years ago.

I know people in surgery that had a fair time getting it. i wont lie, it wasnt as easy as a US school. but it can happen.

"can" is saying nothing. Look at the match list of Ross, St. George or AUC. When you look at the total number of graduates from all those schools and the number that matched in surgery, it's basically like a kid off the street making the NBA. It's an extremely rare thing.

i cant really talk for other caribs, but AUC CAN get residencies in ANY state. i read some false info on this thread earlier. the big three (st george, ross, AUC) can practice anywhere. The life on st maarten is definetely not 3rd world. it is practically like being back home (ofcourse casinos there...lol).

Tell that to the state of Texas

 

[Therese737]

bump

 

[aucgrad110]

azcomdiddy,

you are quite rude. i only offer my honest opinion of my experience and you get all defensive and attack me. for you information, my family problem was that an immediate family member was diagnosed with cancer while i was at school. the school allowed me to only take a leave of absence for a year. her condition worsened a year later when i had to make my choice to go back to school. naturally i declined and i hope you would of too if you were in my shoes. she passed soon after. the school wished me best of luck but told me that my space was given away. i dont blame them because i chose to stay out longer than the time allotted. but you have a damn nerve to question my motives for posting. i hope you have a little more compassion when you do graduate because i dont want a collegue that is so arrogant.

secondly, texas is not a problem for AUC. i have another collegue practicing in san antonio. texas tried to make it harder for taking IMG's because they added a clause that any med school has to have an ongoing research program. that eliminates many of the unreputable schools. however AUC proved them wrong and they still take graduates from AUC. AUC took home two of the three awards available for medical student research in the clinacal anatomists conference last month in san francisco. the other award went to the mayo clinic school of medicine. once and for all prooving that there was an ongoing medical research program at AUC.

now for the USMLE scores. AUC's admissions requirements are now getting higher. they require MCAT scores hovering in the low to mid twenties. this is for their most recent classes although there are exceptions like in all schools. now ill admit in the past they took students who had no business being in medical school. hence you have lower USMLE scores in the low 80 pass rate. that is changing and i am a part of the AUC alumni network and get up to date with all school news. standards are increasing in the the big 3 and more people are getting rejected than ever. now the smaller schools are a different story.

in summation, i think you should do just a tad more research on this topic before you blab some absudity. it will make you look better as well as the DO profession which is very reputable.