D.O. or Carribean Medical Schools? HELP!!

[StriveToBeDr]

Hello MD/DO or future Doctor:

I am a Canadian applicant wishing to apply for medical school in USA. I have a few questions that really appreciate your help and input.

a) If I am accepted by both DO school in USA and MD (the big4) from Caribbean, which one should I pick? Which one has a higher chances of doing the residency in USA and to later specialize et. Surgeon etc?

b) Can I practice in USA if I don't have the green card? How about if I come back to Canada to practice, is it possible to get licenced?

c)I graduated with Honour of Sciecne in Biochemistry with cGPA 3.51, but I took some other courses in other colleges which did not not do that well, so cGPA only 3.3, with science GPA around 3.71 for the prerequisites courses and above 3.5 for overal science GPA.
MCAT is only 27. There are 15 DO schools in the USA accepts international students, and I am intending to apply all of them. What are my chances?

d) I know MD might sound better than DO even though they are almost the same in training. But for my mark, I will not be able to make it into MD at this point. So should I go to DO (if I get accepted) or MD from Caribbean and to see if I could transfer to USA medical school later or just finish there and do residence in USA?


Thank you very much!!!

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[Vee]

as far as do vs. md vs. caribbean... it has been done to death. try doing a search.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

DO, and it isn't close.

 

[sexyman]

This site has a pretty decent search function on it. I suggest you try it out and also visit the carib forums. Also do some research outside of SDN, I am not sure what you meant by "almost the same training" so I am going to give you a pass since this is your first post.

- You posted this question in the osteo forum- so obviously the large majority think you should go DO instead of carib. As a side note, there is currently a Dengue Fever (bone breaking fever) epidemic on the island of Dominica. So you might wan't to narrow it down to "3 carib schools".

- Your stats look good for DO schools and carib schools.

goodluck

 

[sexyman]

also i agree with TT for the record (sorry man i just gave you a nickname)

 

[JaggerPlate]

DO >>>>>>>>>> Carib MD

Just ask yourself this, an American med school vs a Carib med school ... why gives you a better chance to land a residency in America??? The residency spots (for allo if that is what you want) go:

US MD (debatable but whatever), DO, FMD

 

[Tensyle]

stick with DO...you'll get a solid medical education from the United States, no questions asked...and if you wanna come back into US to practice, then you'll have a MUCHHH better chance of DO from US rather than MD from carrib.

For residencies in US, there are MD and DO residencies. The DO residencies are only for DOs (not sure if IMGs can apply). IMGs are international medical graduates. For the MD residency spots, there are many more spots available than there are MD graduates...so the spots open up for non-MD's. That means, DO's are given preference over MDs from the Carribean, because Carribean MDs are seen as IMGs. So, in the words of a physician at a hospital I shadowed at, "Carribean MDs face slaughter when they apply for US residencies cuz they are behind everyone else on the priority list."

 

[TexasTriathlete]

As someone who has done extensive research on the subject, I am pretty comfortable with my position. Carribean med schools are a big gamble. An american DO school is basically money in the bank that you'll be a doc who can practice in the US.

 

[spicedmanna]

Let me save you some of the trouble of a search:

The consensus is that it will likely be more challenging at a Caribbean medical school than at a US medical school, but if it's your only chance to become a physician, then it'll get you there. I think we can all agree that medical school is tough all around, but there are fewer guarantees if you attend a Caribbean medical school. The attrition rate is pretty high. These for-profit institutions are basically designed for folks that, for whatever reason, couldn't attend a US medical school. Most would consider Caribbean medical schools an option of last resort to becoming a physician. You need to be aware that the quality of Caribbean institutions are variable and you need to check if the degree you will be receiving from the Caribbean medical school is accepted in all 50 states, or at least in the state you plan on practicing; caveat emptor. Furthermore, it's arguable and probably situation specific, but many suggest that attending a Caribbean medical school, in general, isn't the ideal position to be in for the residency match, depending on what you want to do. In other words, if you can attend a US medical school, it's probably going to be toward your advantage. However, there is a personal element to this as well. If you don't feel like you want a DO and learn OMM in addition to the standard medical curriculum, then Caribbean medical schools may be the best option for you.

 

[GreenShirt]

In order to practice in the United States, you will have to first apply for a temporary work visa and hope that you qualify for a Green Card before that runs out in order to practice long term in the US.

In the US you will have full scope of medical practice as a Carib. MD or DO. It's really up to you which way you want to go. Hard working students have had success matching into US residencies from both types of schools and opinion varies as to which one has preference.

However, I'm not sure how it would look if you wanted to do your residency/practice in Canada. From what I understand, DO have full practice rights in Canada, too.

I think the decision boils down to location preference. Do you want to be on an island far from home, or in the US?

 

[jltuttle]

Hello MD/DO or future Doctor:

I am a Canadian applicant wishing to apply for medical school in USA. I have a few questions that really appreciate your help and input.

a) If I am accepted by both DO school in USA and MD (the big4) from Caribbean, which one should I pick? Which one has a higher chances of doing the residency in USA and to later specialize et. Surgeon etc?

b) Can I practice in USA if I don't have the green card? How about if I come back to Canada to practice, is it possible to get licenced?

c)I graduated with Honour of Sciecne in Biochemistry with cGPA 3.51, but I took some other courses in other colleges which did not not do that well, so cGPA only 3.3, with science GPA around 3.71 for the prerequisites courses and above 3.5 for overal science GPA.
MCAT is only 27. There are 15 DO schools in the USA accepts international students, and I am intending to apply all of them. What are my chances?

d) I know MD might sound better than DO even though they are almost the same in training. But for my mark, I will not be able to make it into MD at this point. So should I go to DO (if I get accepted) or MD from Caribbean and to see if I could transfer to USA medical school later or just finish there and do residence in USA?


Thank you very much!!!

a) As was stated, if your top concern is US residency, you should attend medical school in the US. Residency programs give preference to DO graduates over Caribbean MDs.

b) You cannot work anywhere in the US in any profession legally if you're not a US citizen without a visa or green card. And yes, you can become licensed to practice osteopathic medicine in Canada after being trained in the US.

c) I'm not an authority on how DO schools view international applicants so I can't really answer this but your stats would be competitive for a US applicant.

d) Not exactly sure what you're asking here. You want to know if you can start school in the Caribbean and then transfer to an MD school in the US? I don't know if that ever happens and if it does you're odds of pulling it off probably aren't that great. If you're asking whether or not you should go to a DO school or Caribbean MD, see a).

 

[jltuttle]

In the US you will have full scope of medical practice as a Carib. MD or DO. It's really up to you which way you want to go. Hard working students have had success matching into US residencies from both types of schools and opinion varies as to which one has preference.

Yes, working hard students have had success matching into residencies from both types of programs although statistically you are more likely to match as a DO than an IMG. The NRMP reports that over the last 7 years the percentage of applicants that did not match has fluctuated between 45-50% (50% in 2007) for IMG graduates whereas unmatched osteopaths has been between 29-32%.

 

[Meatwad]

d) Not exactly sure what you're asking here. You want to know if you can start school in the Caribbean and then transfer to an MD school in the US? I don't know if that ever happens and if it does you're odds of pulling it off probably aren't that great. If you're asking whether or not you should go to a DO school or Caribbean MD, see a).

A handful of Caribbean students transfer to some US MD schools each year; realize, though, they are at the top of their class in the Caribbean, were usually on the waitlists when they applied to med school (and were therefore fairly competitive with stats to begin with), and transfer after year 2; this means they've already taken Step 1 and killed it. You'd be aiming for far above the US average (you'd be looking for 240+).

If you go to the Caribbean, plan on graduating from that school. It's very, very unlikely you'll be able to transfer, although it is definitely possible and is done by a few motivated students every year.

For all the reasons above, I'd go DO over Caribbean MD in a heartbeat. All the arguments in favor of the Caribbean MD I've read here and at valuemd.com are, no offense, from people who are very misinformed.

Think of it this way: at the very worst, a DO = IMG in the eyes of reisdency program directors. At best (and more likely), a DO > IMG. Would you rather accept someone whose education has been undertaken at an institution within your national borders, that has gone through stringent accreditation processes, etc., or a school offshore? The answer is pretty apparent, which is why IMGs always have a harder time matching than US grads, even if they went to great overseas schools.

The only argument the Carib > DO students have is you get an MD; I say big deal. They claim hospital staff laugh at you behind your back if you are a DO. This is the most pathetic argument I've ever heard. If you need the approval of everyone you meet in your life, I wish you the best of luck, because life is going to be hard as hell for you. The letters after your name are less important than the ones in front of your name; Dr.

The top 4 (excluding Saba) are pretty expensive, so you won't be saving money. I don't know how those Canadian TERI loans work, so I don't know if interest would be compounding while you go to a Carib school or not. The other issue, to me at least, is location. I'd rather live in any locale that currently houses a DO school than the Caribbean. I'd feel more comfortable here, and considering the similarity between the US and Canada, I'm sure you'd feel right at home here too.

The ONE issue that is legit for Canadians is that the DO degree has some limitations in some areas of Canada, I believe. Also, it may be true you'll face much more discrimination and misunderstanding over your DO degree in Canada than you will in the US. The situation is improving in Canada, but many Canadians are still unfamiliar with the US DO degree, and still think of it as the osteopath degree (not the osteopathic medicine degree). I'll agree this should be taken into account if you want to practice in the province or two that require an MD/MBBS.

 

[Meatwad]

I'd also like to add a little bit more, actually. I'm not endorsing any of these schools, and will try to present the facts as objectively as possible.

From what I've read, a lot of Canadians who couldn't get into US MD/Canadian MD schools tend to go to either Caribbean, Australian, or Irish medical schools. The Canadians at Irish schools usually have very good grades (~3.5 avg it seems) and great MCAT scores (30+). Since Canada is much harder to get into than the US, these numbers are rarely sufficient for entrance into a Canadian school. If you could get your MCAT up a bit, Australian and Irish schools would be well within your grasp.

These are real universities with hundreds of years of history treaching medicine. They are not doctor factories like the Caribbean schools. There are downsides, however:

1) Clinicals are done in Ireland or Australia, not in the US. You don't have the comfort of making connections with people at programs you'd eventually like to do a residency at.

2) They don't prep you for the USMLE. This is an important point not to be taken lightly.

Still, these grads still seem to choose this route over the Caribbean a lot of times. It seems very hard to get a residency in Canada from the Caribbean, and less so coming from Ireland or Australia (although this is not to say it's not at all difficult still).

You could also look into Israeli schools. They are, I believe, a bit more popular with Americans, however. Technion, Ben-Gurion, and Sackler are the 3 that are there.

 

[hoss22]

The first thing you should do is figure out a better reason for wanting to apply to a DO school than "My stats weren't good enough for an MD school." DO schools increasingly want people who actually want to become an Osteopathic physician, and you can guarantee that they're going to ask you for good reasons for why you want to be one.

Look at the curriculums between DO and MD schools and you'll see you get the same training, so as far as I'm concerned DO=MD and obtaining a residency is dependent upon your initiative to be a good student.

 

[jltuttle]

The first thing you should do is figure out a better reason for wanting to apply to a DO school than "My stats weren't good enough for an MD school." DO schools increasingly want people who actually want to become an Osteopathic physician, and you can guarantee that they're going to ask you for good reasons for why you want to be one.

Look at the curriculums between DO and MD schools and you'll see you get the same training, so as far as I'm concerned DO=MD and obtaining a residency is dependent upon your initiative to be a good student.

So you should have a good reason for wanting to become a DO instead of an MD but DO=MD???

 

[Nasem]

Yes, working hard students have had success matching into residencies from both types of programs although statistically you are more likely to match as a DO than an IMG. The NRMP reports that over the last 7 years the percentage of applicants that did not match has fluctuated between 45-50% (50% in 2007) for IMG graduates whereas unmatched osteopaths has been between 29-32%.

I am a bit confused about these numbers...
Does this mean, 29 to 32% of DO graduates DON'T match into a residency? does this mean that... theyr pretty much finished ? they earn a medical education and then start flipping burgers are BurgerKing ?

 

[Jpc984]

I am not sure, but my thinking is they are refering to MD residencies. I don't think it includes DO residencies, i.e. those students who didn' t match MD may of went to a DO residency.

 

[StriveToBeDr]

Same thing I posted in the Caribbean forum:

Sigh, I hate having to make this post, but as a prospective student who is looking at both options, here are my thoughts, broken down into bits:

Prestige:

This is of variable importance to people. The fact is that D.O. is not well known yet, and some do consider it a second tier medical education (again, that is the perception, not the reality). They also might consider Caribbean a second tier medical education, however it is much easier to 'hide' a degree from a Caribbean than you can a D.O. No patient asks where you went to school, but they might see the initials behind your name. If you are going to be a DO and are afraid of any shame you may feel, or don't want to answer questions about your degree - save yourself the future hassle and don't do it. The degree will be with you for the rest of your life, and it's not worth feeling regret over it.

Overseas:

If your plan, in the future, is to practice overseas: get an MD. Generally, it is very hard to practice in foreign countries anyway, and having a D.O. will make it harder. Many countries now recognize the US D.O. degree, but not all, and while D.O. are rare here, there are pretty much unknown everywhere else (e.g., they are known as chiropractors). So to avoid this, I would recommend a carib. MD.

Opportunity:

If you want to go into a hard to get into specialty, go D.O. Carib and DO both will be at a disadvantage when applying to allopathic specialties, but DOs have their own residencies and fellowships. One of the schools I might be going to (PCOM) has a very good Neurosurgery program, and there are also a lot of dermatology programs that D.O. students can match into (though some specialties, such as Rad. Onc has no DO option). As a D.O., you will have more options for specialties in the future, and will have two chances. Either way, you aren't going to be unemployed no matter which way you go.


Right now, my only choice is a D.O. as I need to stay close to my father who is suffering from cancer, but if he gets better I will have a decision to make. I think I would personally still choose D.O. since I don't give a crap what people say to me and I don't plan on practicing anywhere outside US, and I am also looking at some DO/PhD programs which I cannot find in the carib, but that is very specific to my circumstances and career goals. For you, the mileage may vary. Instead of making a blanket statement, you need to ask yourself what you want from the degree. Look at the above three criteria (and there are other criteria as well) and decide where you come out the most ahead.

Thank you for your input, Dr.

I have a few other questions in mind, wishing if you or any Dr. to help me.

1) In http://www.caribbeanmedicine.com/openletter.htm
It mentions Caribbean MD are impossible to practise in Canada whereas DO can. Is that true?

2) Are the big4 MD school students from Caribbean can practise anywhere in USA?

3) How do Canadians handle the issues of VISA, such that they won't be forced to leave right after the MD training. More importantly, which degree is easier to apply for VISA or even green card?

4) I always dream of going into medical school. But somehow ended up with the grades above due to various reasons. I was almost going into Doctor of Chirorpactic program + Master of Acupunture. Now I delayed the entrance of entering into the program and trying for the DO/MD. I have applied 15 of the DO schools in USA which takes international students.
They are
Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine of Midwestern University AZ 01/01/2008
AT Still University - School of Osteopathic Medicine in Arizona AZ 02/01/2008
Western University of Health Sciences / College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific CA 02/01/2008
Nova Southeastern University College of Osteopathic Medicine FL 01/15/2008
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine - Georgia Campus GA 02/01/2008
Des Moines University - Osteopathic Medical Center IA 02/01/2008
Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine of Midwestern University IL 01/01/2008
Pikeville College School of Osteopathic Medicine KY 02/01/2008
University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine ME 02/01/2008
Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine MI 12/01/2007
A. T. Still University-Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine MO 02/01/2008
Kansas City University of Medicine and Biosciences MO 02/14/2008
Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine, New York NY 04/01/2008
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine, Main Campus PA 02/01/2008
Lincoln Memorial University - DeBusk College of Osteopathic Medicine TN 02/15/2008
I wonder what is my chances of getting admitted.

Besides the grades above, I have research experience in Pharmacy, Chemistry and Molecular Biology Lab. A few awards and a few hospital volunteer experiences in different department and one publication pending for approval.


Thank you very much

 

[JaggerPlate]

Same thing I posted in the Caribbean forum:

Sigh, I hate having to make this post, but as a prospective student who is looking at both options, here are my thoughts, broken down into bits:

Prestige:

This is of variable importance to people. The fact is that D.O. is not well known yet, and some do consider it a second tier medical education (again, that is the perception, not the reality). They also might consider Caribbean a second tier medical education, however it is much easier to 'hide' a degree from a Caribbean than you can a D.O. No patient asks where you went to school, but they might see the initials behind your name. If you are going to be a DO and are afraid of any shame you may feel, or don't want to answer questions about your degree - save yourself the future hassle and don't do it. The degree will be with you for the rest of your life, and it's not worth feeling regret over it.

Overseas:

If your plan, in the future, is to practice overseas: get an MD. Generally, it is very hard to practice in foreign countries anyway, and having a D.O. will make it harder. Many countries now recognize the US D.O. degree, but not all, and while D.O. are rare here, there are pretty much unknown everywhere else (e.g., they are known as chiropractors). So to avoid this, I would recommend a carib. MD.

Opportunity:

If you want to go into a hard to get into specialty, go D.O. Carib and DO both will be at a disadvantage when applying to allopathic specialties, but DOs have their own residencies and fellowships. One of the schools I might be going to (PCOM) has a very good Neurosurgery program, and there are also a lot of dermatology programs that D.O. students can match into (though some specialties, such as Rad. Onc has no DO option). As a D.O., you will have more options for specialties in the future, and will have two chances. Either way, you aren't going to be unemployed no matter which way you go.


Right now, my only choice is a D.O. as I need to stay close to my father who is suffering from cancer, but if he gets better I will have a decision to make. I think I would personally still choose D.O. since I don't give a crap what people say to me and I don't plan on practicing anywhere outside US, and I am also looking at some DO/PhD programs which I cannot find in the carib, but that is very specific to my circumstances and career goals. For you, the mileage may vary. Instead of making a blanket statement, you need to ask yourself what you want from the degree. Look at the above three criteria (and there are other criteria as well) and decide where you come out the most ahead.

Great post!!! You were very logical and fair ... and I truly hope your father gets better

The only comment I had (and once again, you have thought this through and know what you are talking about so ... just my two cents) is that a DO degree will follow you around for the rest of your life, but so would not being able to match into a good residency bc of a Carib MD. I have just heard that a lot of Carib MDs can't match decent allo residencies, whereas DOs have decent MD matches, and their own set of AOA residencies. I'd much rather be a DO in a field that I love than jaded in something I didn't want, but with an MD.

 

[cleothecat]

For all Canadians

Re caibean vs DO

DO is the preferred route to licensure in most canadian provinces.They are counted a sequivalent to US or Canadian allopathic grads.

Grads from caribean, irish, Israeli schools etc count as FMG's in Canada

Grads from US DO schools are not counted as FMG's, and are eligihble for licensure as ling as they attend an eligibley residenc yprogram in canada or the US.

The choice is a no-brainer.

 

[JaggerPlate]

For all Canadians

Re caibean vs DO

DO is the preferred route to licensure in most canadian provinces.They are counted a sequivalent to US or Canadian allopathic grads.

Grads from caribean, irish, Israeli schools etc count as FMG's in Canada

Grads from US DO schools are not counted as FMG's, and are eligihble for licensure as ling as they attend an eligibley residenc yprogram in canada or the US.

The choice is a no-brainer.

- Sounds like you got your answer OP!!!

 

[hoss22]

So you should have a good reason for wanting to become a DO instead of an MD but DO=MD???

I don't really get your logic as to why those things don't go together...but yes, that is what I said. I am not interested in restarting that debate, to me it seems petty and childish to argue over, I am simply relaying the fact that you WILL be asked why DO and you should prepared to give an acceptable answer.

 

[Meatwad]

Are you sure? According to this, it varies by province.

I was going to post the same link. To the OP, I wouldn't take any of our word's for it; contact the medical boards of each province and ask them specifically what the limitations are for having an American DO degree.

 

[c3c4cam]

Hello MD/DO or future Doctor:

I am a Canadian applicant wishing to apply for medical school in USA. I have a few questions that really appreciate your help and input.

a) If I am accepted by both DO school in USA and MD (the big4) from Caribbean, which one should I pick? Which one has a higher chances of doing the residency in USA and to later specialize et. Surgeon etc?

b) Can I practice in USA if I don't have the green card? How about if I come back to Canada to practice, is it possible to get licenced?

c)I graduated with Honour of Sciecne in Biochemistry with cGPA 3.51, but I took some other courses in other colleges which did not not do that well, so cGPA only 3.3, with science GPA around 3.71 for the prerequisites courses and above 3.5 for overal science GPA.
MCAT is only 27. There are 15 DO schools in the USA accepts international students, and I am intending to apply all of them. What are my chances?

d) I know MD might sound better than DO even though they are almost the same in training. But for my mark, I will not be able to make it into MD at this point. So should I go to DO (if I get accepted) or MD from Caribbean and to see if I could transfer to USA medical school later or just finish there and do residence in USA?


Thank you very much!!!

Why do people like you compare DO to carribbean? Can't you understand that DO is just another name for a medical degree and it has equal standards to American MD schools? Whereas, Caribbean schools have low standards. Despite all that, you will probably not get into a DO school with 3.3 and a 27. you need more than that, at least a 3.5+ nowdays so good luck.

Here is the answer to some of your questions: only about 2% of students fail out of DO school and 98% of the students match in to a good residency (not ****ty residencies like the Carribbeans)

 

[chadderdo21]

DO school all the way. Being an IMG is a pain in the butt and you do not need that stress after you get done and are in debt. And as far as the comparing crap is, don't worry about that, it is all semantics.

 

[RySerr21]

Why do people like you compare DO to carribbean? Can't you understand that DO is just another name for a medical degree and it has equal standards to American MD schools? Whereas, Caribbean schools have low standards. Despite all that, you will probably not get into a DO school with 3.3 and a 27. you need more than that, at least a 3.5+ nowdays so good luck.

Here is the answer to some of your questions: only about 2% of students fail out of DO school and 98% of the students match in to a good residency (not ****ty residencies like the Carribbeans)

1) this thread is a year old.....nobody cares any more.

2) The statement I bolded is just flat out incorrect. I think the average for all DO schools is about a 3.45 GPA (according to most recent college information book 2009), so automatically you know that you don't need a 3.5+ to gain an acceptance.

 

[cyclohexanol]

Why do people like you dig up year old (or longer) threads to showcase your overzealous attitude about how ****ty you think Caribbean graduates are? This is like the 4th thread I've happened upon that you have brought back from the dead in some inflammatory manner. Congrats on looking like a dbag.

Why do people like you compare DO to carribbean? Can't you understand that DO is just another name for a medical degree and it has equal standards to American MD schools? Whereas, Caribbean schools have low standards. Despite all that, you will probably not get into a DO school with 3.3 and a 27. you need more than that, at least a 3.5+ nowdays so good luck.

Here is the answer to some of your questions: only about 2% of students fail out of DO school and 98% of the students match in to a good residency (not ****ty residencies like the Carribbeans)

 

[JaggerPlate]

There needs to be an offical TOS rule about brining threads back from the dead.

DO >>>> Carib MD. Period.

 

[Dling]

There needs to be an offical TOS rule about brining threads back from the dead.

DO >>>> Carib MD. Period.

I don't know, I think those people that choose DO merely because the stats to get in are slightly less should go Caribbean. If you don't have a conviction to be a DO and especially if you don't understand it, then I doubt you will ever be happy

 

[fire2]

If you can't get into an MD allo school, then whether you graduate from a DO or Caribbean school (at least sgu, ross, auc or saba) matters not. Go with your heart.

 

[JaggerPlate]

If you can't get into an MD allo school, then whether you graduate from a DO or Caribbean school (at least sgu, ross, auc or saba) matters not. Go with your heart.

No, it matters when you flunk out, can't find clinicals, and can't match. Anyone who thinks that Caribb schools are on par with DO schools is a pre-med who would go to school in the Congo to get the MD. Take a look at any Caribb (SGU included) vs DO match list, take a look at any of the drop out rates at the schools, and ANY of the horror stories of trying to match as an FMG and then say that people with stats slightly less than US allo should study medicine at Malibu Rum university.

 

[MossPoh]

1) this thread is a year old.....nobody cares any more.

2) The statement I bolded is just flat out incorrect. I think the average for all DO schools is about a 3.45 GPA (according to most recent college information book 2009), so automatically you know that you don't need a 3.5+ to gain an acceptance.

I am confused about the bolded part too considering I have a 3.3 and a 27 and have 7 interviews so far. 6 DO and 1 MD.

 

[Chocolate Bear]

study medicine at Malibu Rum university.

I hear their match list sucks, but they throw one hell of a delicious piña colada pity party!

 

[MossPoh]

One thing is for sure, the female to male ratio will be skewed at that one.

 

[andexterouss]

The statistics for Caribbean schools are disheartening. According to NRMP, just this year alone, 51% of US IMGs matched while 48% did not. For non-US IMGs 42% matched and 57% did not. $200k is a lot of money to gamble in this economy.This is in addition to their high attrition rate. As other have stated, the match list for DO schools outshine the carib (that is, those that do match).

Think we should make this statistics as a STICKY so that threads like these don't start again especially during this upcoming acceptance season.

 

[MossPoh]

Take those stats with a grain of salt. One can pre-match, which many do. They sign with a program before. Also, it is an international facility and there are students that go elsewhere.

 

[andexterouss]

Take those stats with a grain of salt. One can pre-match, which many do. They sign with a program before. Also, it is an international facility and there are students that go elsewhere.

Those numbers are for those that applied but did not match or matched. The pre-match candidates are not included in the match results because they did not apply or withdrew their application.

 

[BruceBanner]

.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I hear their match list sucks, but they throw one hell of a delicious piña colada pity party!

I know you also like getting caught in the rain.

 

[Chocolate Bear]

I know you also like getting caught in the rain.

Damn. I couldn't hide it forever, I guess.

 

[MossPoh]

I still have a hard time believing around 50% of the applicants did not match at all unless they all applied to about 3 neurosurgery programs and prayed. There has to be something to that percentage. It doesn't really say much. These schools graduate several hundred a year. Most of them would at least go into a prelim or intern year somewhere where they work their arse off as a slave until they match somewhere. If you're talking the "big schools" down there that is, which is the ones we're referencing. If its just "IMG" then there are a lot of people from a lot of unaccredited and crap schools. If you go to AUC, Ross, St. George. etc. then you aren't going to be in horrendous shape. You might not get that ROAD speciality, but you will be plenty shaped up for a primary care residency at the very minimum, a horribly malignant program or small community.

 

[BruceBanner]

I still have a hard time believing around 50% of the applicants did not match at all unless they all applied to about 3 neurosurgery programs and prayed. There has to be something to that percentage. It doesn't really say much.

I think that percentage is refering to all IMGs. The problem with the reported match rates from these schools (the big 4) is that you dont see the whole picture. You see all the students who matched into a US program, but what you dont see is how ****ty those programs could be, or the students who dint match at all.

You might not get that ROAD speciality, but you will be plenty shaped up for a primary care residency at the very minimum, a horribly malignant program or small community.

Exactly the reason only to go for the Caribbean as a last resort.

 

[Dissonance]

I'm going to attempt to put this to rest .

Lets be real about the IMG match statistics. There is an approximately 47% match rate for *ALL* IMG's. This is NOT realistic concerning the Big 4 carib schools (SGU, AUC,Saba,Ross) . The match rate for these schools is approximately 90% or higher for US-citizens graduating from these schools. Keep in mind that IMG's can participate in matching outside of ERAS and the NRMP, so pre-match offers factor in to these statistics. SGU and AUC are generally considered more ‘safe' schools to attend because of the level of support given to current students in terms of clinical rotation slots and have mildly more rigorous admissions criteria than Ross, and possibly Saba. Ross is generally known for having trouble with its clinical sites and rotations and like many Caribbean schools known for admitting an overabundance of students and letting attrition level out the classes, while still collecting some of the tuition. The attrition rate is higher at Carib schools than at US schools, and for good reason. The admissions standards in most cases are lower, the schools are located in another country, lifestyle is potentially different and the schools may possibly admit students incapable of completing the curriculum etc.

The important question is, is there a high likelyhood if you go to one of the Big 4 that you can return to the US and land a residency. YES. Is there a possibility of landing ROADE/competitive surg. Spec. from one of these schools. YES.

Is it likely that matching a competitive specialty will occur? **NO**.

Lets examine the climate for IMG's currently. There have been several new MD and DO schools which have opened up here in the US, not to mention a planned increase in US mainland school seats over the next 10 years. What this means for IMG's is that the competition for a FIXED number of residency slots is going to get stiffer. There is an argument that there will be students who instead matriculated into the new schools instead of having to go offshore for education and this will essentially offset in the long run, but in my opinion this is just semantics. You have to look at it statistically. DO graduates have the ability to match into both osteopathic and allopathic residencies. Simply by numbers alone, this gives a wider array of residency opportunity for the DO grad than the IMG grad who only has access to ACGME residencies, since AOA (DO) residencies do not admit MD's. Both DO and IMG enter the match as independent applicant status, however it is widely known that an AMG will, in many cases with a large majority of programs, have more potential success than an IMG in matching in general.

Lets distinguish between the bias between carib vs. DO. In terms of residency, it is true that there is a possibility of some allo programs not admitting DO's and also these same programs or other programs not admitting IMG's, however the bias against US DO graduates in matching allo residencies is generally considered to be much less prevalent. MD vs. DO on your coat? Well as much as we all hate this subject, it realistically is valid for someone who is completing or wants to gain admission to a professional program to know that they will receive some degree of prestige and respect from the general public and hospital workers etc. for the amount of work it takes to become a physician. However, in the workplace, the issue of MD or DO is a NON-ISSUE. There literally is NO distinction, separation, or discrimination between allopathic or osteopathic physicians in the hospital/practice etc. For verification of this fact all you need is input from a practicing D.O. which will quell whichever rumors abound SDN.

Since the OP is a Canadian as I once was before becoming a US citizen recently, I'm going to have to give you the bad news. You can basically FORGET about returning to Canada for residency if you choose to attend a carib school or any foreign school for that matter. CARMS which is the Canadian version of the NRMP basically has ridiculous clauses and a high discrimination towards IMG's. ( For more info on this plus additional facts PM me). If you are a USDO graduate and attend an ACGME residency in the US, due to the agreement with LCME Canadian schools the ability to be licensed by individual Canadian provinces is more likely, but a DO matching a Canadian residency slot is basically out of the question. If you complete an AOA residency in the US as a DO, I'm not currently aware of accreditation status which Canada gives to AOA residency grads. Essentially it is in your favor to attend a US school either DO or MD which takes international students, of this there are several. Or become a US permanent resident prior to going to med school. Either way you are most likely looking at returning to the US for residency instead of Canada. As a carib grad IMG non US citizen you have to have J-1 or Hb-1 visa sponsored by the residency, and there are varying degrees of residencies which are willing to do his, which reduces your chance of residency matching even further.

Lastly, most pre-meds or medical students for that matter can speculate but the majority have no idea what they want to specialize in, and these decisions will probably change during med school. Lets be realistic here. Attending a Carib school can match you pretty effectively into primary care if you are a US citizen, and with a high match rate at that. If you find during med school that you don't want to do primary care and want a ROADE/Ortho/nsurg etc. it will take exceptional step scores, rotation grades, class rank, research etc coming from a carib school. While this can be done, the match rate for people even with these statistics into uber competitive specialties is very dismal. However, USDO graduates have a much much higher statistical probability of matching these specialties even with not so amazing class rank/score etc. Either way, a competitive specialty is hard to match because that's exactly what it is…Competitive. As a US grad you are fighting against other US grads for a spot. As an IMG the fight for a competitive specialty is significantly amplified.

Debtwise lets also examine carib vs. DO. They can both be expensive. WVSOM is similar to SGU in terms of tuition, super expensive. Saba is the cheapest of the 4 but does not have federally subsidized loans. Think about the state of our economy currently. Would you want to bank on it that the other Big 3 carib schools can keep their federal loans? If they lose them then its down to only private loans which can essentially almost make pursuing primary care prohibitive when u consider the interest rates. Whereas USDO will always have federally subsidized loans, and there are USDO schools that have tuition which is almost that of some state MD schools, which can be significantly cheaper.

It seems clear that if the ultimate goal is to become a US practicing physician, attending a US school (MD or DO) will give you less hoops to jump through, more opportunities to match into various specialties, and less hassles with licensing and accreditation. In addition to that the possible financial pitfalls associated with med school, loans and debt, lend a more rosy outlook to mainland schools vs. carib Big 4. If the carib is your ONLY option, then it will still give you a chance to become a physician, just make sure to approach this route with reasonable expectations.

 

[BruceBanner]

^^ Props, this was great.

 

[RafaTech]

I’m going to attempt to put this to rest .
Lets be real about the IMG match statistics. There is an approximately 47% match rate for *ALL* IMG’s. This is NOT realistic concerning the Big 4 carib schools (SGU, AUC,Saba,Ross) . The match rate for these schools is approximately 90% or higher for US-citizens graduating from these schools. Keep in mind that IMG’s can participate in matching outside of ERAS and the NRMP, so pre-match offers factor in to these statistics. SGU and AUC are generally considered more ‘safe’ schools to attend because of the level of support given to current students in terms of clinical rotation slots and have mildly more rigorous admissions criteria than Ross, and possibly Saba. Ross is generally known for having trouble with its clinical sites and rotations and like many Caribbean schools known for admitting an overabundance of students and letting attrition level out the classes, while still collecting some of the tuition. The attrition rate is higher at Carib schools than at US schools, and for good reason. The admissions standards in most cases are lower, the schools are located in another country, lifestyle is potentially different and the schools may possibly admit students incapable of completing the curriculum etc.
The important question is, is there a high likelyhood if you go to one of the Big 4 that you can return to the US and land a residency. YES. Is there a possibility of landing ROADE/competitive surg. Spec. from one of these schools. YES. Is it likely that matching a competitive specialty will occur? **NO**.
Lets examine the climate for IMG’s currently. There have been several new MD and DO schools which have opened up here in the US, not to mention a planned increase in US mainland school seats over the next 10 years. What this means for IMG’s is that the competition for a FIXED number of residency slots is going to get stiffer. There is an argument that there will be students who instead matriculated into the new schools instead of having to go offshore for education and this will essentially offset in the long run, but in my opinion this is just semantics. You have to look at it statistically. DO graduates have the ability to match into both osteopathic and allopathic residencies. Simply by numbers alone, this gives a wider array of residency opportunity for the DO grad than the IMG grad who only has access to ACGME residencies, since AOA (DO) residencies do not admit MD’s. Both DO and IMG enter the match as independent applicant status, however it is widely known that an AMG will, in many cases with a large majority of programs, have more potential success than an IMG in matching in general.
Lets distinguish between the bias between carib vs. DO. In terms of residency, it is true that there is a possibility of some allo programs not admitting DO’s and also these same programs or other programs not admitting IMG’s, however the bias against US DO graduates in matching allo residencies is generally considered to be much less prevalent. MD vs. DO on your coat? Well as much as we all hate this subject, it realistically is valid for someone who is completing or wants to gain admission to a professional program to know that they will receive some degree of prestige and respect from the general public and hospital workers etc. for the amount of work it takes to become a physician. However, in the workplace, the issue of MD or DO is a NON-ISSUE. There literally is NO distinction, separation, or discrimination between allopathic or osteopathic physicians in the hospital/practice etc. For verification of this fact all you need is input from a practicing D.O. which will quell whichever rumors abound SDN.
Since the OP is a Canadian as I once was before becoming a US citizen recently, I’m going to have to give you the bad news. You can basically FORGET about returning to Canada for residency if you choose to attend a carib school or any foreign school for that matter. CARMS which is the Canadian version of the NRMP basically has ridiculous clauses and a high discrimination towards IMG’s. ( For more info on this plus additional facts PM me). If you are a USDO graduate and attend an ACGME residency in the US, due to the agreement with LCME Canadian schools the ability to be licensed by individual Canadian provinces is more likely, but a DO matching a Canadian residency slot is basically out of the question. If you complete an AOA residency in the US as a DO, I’m not currently aware of accreditation status which Canada gives to AOA residency grads. Essentially it is in your favor to attend a US school either DO or MD which takes international students, of this there are several. Or become a US permanent resident prior to going to med school. Either way you are most likely looking at returning to the US for residency instead of Canada. As a carib grad IMG non US citizen you have to have J-1 or Hb-1 visa sponsored by the residency, and there are varying degrees of residencies which are willing to do his, which reduces your chance of residency matching even further.
Lastly, most pre-meds or medical students for that matter can speculate but the majority have no idea what they want to specialize in, and these decisions will probably change during med school. Lets be realistic here. Attending a Carib school can match you pretty effectively into primary care if you are a US citizen, and with a high match rate at that. If you find during med school that you don’t want to do primary care and want a ROADE/Ortho/nsurg etc. it will take exceptional step scores, rotation grades, class rank, research etc coming from a carib school. While this can be done, the match rate for people even with these statistics into uber competitive specialties is very dismal. However, USDO graduates have a much much higher statistical probability of matching these specialties even with not so amazing class rank/score etc. Either way, a competitive specialty is hard to match because that’s exactly what it is…Competitive. As a US grad you are fighting against other US grads for a spot. As an IMG the fight for a competitive specialty is significantly amplified.
Debtwise lets also examine carib vs. DO. They can both be expensive. WVSOM is similar to SGU in terms of tuition, super expensive. Saba is the cheapest of the 4 but does not have federally subsidized loans. Think about the state of our economy currently. Would you want to bank on it that the other Big 3 carib schools can keep their federal loans? If they lose them then its down to only private loans which can essentially almost make pursuing primary care prohibitive when u consider the interest rates. Whereas USDO will always have federally subsidized loans, and there are USDO schools that have tuition which is almost that of some state MD schools, which can be significantly cheaper.
It seems clear that if the ultimate goal is to become a US practicing physician, attending a US school (MD or DO) will give you less hoops to jump through, more opportunities to match into various specialties, and less hassles with licensing and accreditation. In addition to that the possible financial pitfalls associated with med school, loans and debt, lend a more rosy outlook to mainland schools vs. carib Big 4. If the carib is your ONLY option, then it will still give you a chance to become a physician, just make sure to approach this route with reasonable expectations.

Brilliant! Someone sticky this.

 

[andexterouss]

I’m going to attempt to put this to rest .
Lets be real about the IMG match statistics. There is an approximately 47% match rate for *ALL* IMG’s. This is NOT realistic concerning the Big 4 carib schools (SGU, AUC,Saba,Ross) . The match rate for these schools is approximately 90% or higher for US-citizens graduating from these schools. Keep in mind that IMG’s can participate in matching outside of ERAS and the NRMP, so pre-match offers factor in to these statistics.

I disagree. As noted in my previous post, I listed the match rate for US IMGs and non-US IMGs.Don't believe anything these schools say. Let's stick with facts from NRMP. That 90% you quoted rivals US MD students which is 94%! In fact, it beats out DOs that applied for allopathic residency which is a 72% match rate. Doesn't sound right at all. The truth of the matter is that 2,696 US IMGs applied last year for allopathic match and only 52% match(1,541) and 48% did not (1,428). Even if you factor in only the Big 4, it may only move it a few points up to 58-60% but no where close to 90%. This is because a vast majority of US IMGs come from the Big 4 since these schools cater mostly to them. In fact, these schools accept US students twice or even thrice a year. I know SGU takes in 325 students per term(August and January). Very few minority of US IMGs go to else where (Europe, etc) to study.

Pre-match is irrelevant (see previous post). We are talking about one's chances of matching if you APPLY as a US IMG.The chance of that happening is 52% give or take. Those that don't match scramble and fill a lot of the slots available in IM, Peds, Family Medicine etc. And there are tons of these available each year.

I do agree with everything else you said.

 

[Dissonance]

I disagree. As noted in my previous post, I listed the match rate for US IMGs and non-US IMGs.Don't believe anything these schools say. Let's stick with facts from NRMP. That 90% you quoted rivals US MD students which is 94%! In fact, it beats out DOs that applied for allopathic residency which is a 72% match rate. Doesn't sound right at all. The truth of the matter is that 2,696 US IMGs applied last year for allopathic match and only 52% match(1,541) and 48% did not (1,428). Even if you factor in only the Big 4, it may only move it a few points up to 58-60% but no where close to 90%. This is because a vast majority of US IMGs come from the Big 4 since these schools cater mostly to them. In fact, these schools accept US students twice or even thrice a year. I know SGU takes in 325 students per term(August and January). Very few minority of US IMGs go to else where (Europe, etc) to study.

Pre-match is irrelevant (see previous post). We are talking about one's chances of matching if you APPLY as a US IMG.The chance of that happening is 52% give or take. Those that don't match scramble and fill a lot of the slots available in IM, Peds, Family Medicine etc. And there are tons of these available each year.

I do agree with everything else you said.

I think you might have missed my point.

I'm well aware of the match rate for ALL US IMG's. However, I was addressing the carib big 4. The published match rate from the carib big 4 schools is somewhere around 70%, but if you include the pre-matches in there, it brings the total to near 90% for graduates from these schools that entered a residency. If you do not beleive my statistics, you only need to contact the schools, and get a list of graduates by name, and the list of ALL of their PY-1 and PGY-2 matches. I actually have done this, since as a Canadian I also once considered the carribbean route for quite some time.

And I'm not talking about matching their first ranking, or any of that other stuff that doesn't apply to this specific point, which is all factored into the US 94% published by the AAMC. I'm talking about grads from these schools with decent boards scores being able to lad a residency of ANY kind as a US citizen in an ACGME accredited residency program.

Significantly I was comparing how successful graduates from these schools compare to successful DO graduates in ability to enter a residency program and become a successful physician. So the percentage ranking from ALL DO's entering into ANY residency of some kind would be applicable here. The debate here is to highlight *reasonable* routes to becoming a physician, which is what I attempted to do, since we all know that someone who is a reasonable applicant is not going to attend BFE school in russia or any unknown carib school for the most part in an attempt to be a US physician.