D.o. V. Fmg?

[Hardbody]

I am not particularly interested in cardiology, but I was wondering if U.S. allo schools are not an option, would it be better to go D.O. or FMG if one wanted to compete for a cardiology fellowship (or any other internal medicine fellowship for that matter)?

I ask because I was checking out the stats under the sticky subspecialty FAQ's and it shows that many more FMG's are getting cardiology fellowships than D.O.'s. To me it almost looks as if it is an advantage to be an FMG if one was to pursue a fellowship in internal medicine. Can someone please clarify this for me?

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[APACHE3]

Ok, you are about to open pandora's box again. I think you are correct that it "seems" easier to get fellowships in certain disciplines with an MD than DO. With that said, my hospital, has many DO's, from the ED to neurosurgery and ortho. And they are very good at what they do. I think in the midwest and south, you will find more opportunities for DO's than upper east coast or west coast. I know its a long answer, but depending what region you are from your chances will be better. Check out program's site and see what there roster looks like. For me, I went to europe for my MD, but at the time, I did not know much about the DO, because there were no schools in my region of the country..anyway, hopefully this thread wont deteriorate ....GL

 

[Hardbody]

Ok, you are about to open pandora's box again. I think you are correct that it "seems" easier to get fellowships in certain disciplines with an MD than DO. With that said, my hospital, has many DO's, from the ED to neurosurgery and ortho. And they are very good at what they do. I think in the midwest and south, you will find more opportunities for DO's than upper east coast or west coast. I know its a long answer, but depending what region you are from your chances will be better. Check out program's site and see what there roster looks like. For me, I went to europe for my MD, but at the time, I did not know much about the DO, because there were no schools in my region of the country..anyway, hopefully this thread wont deteriorate ....GL

I am a pre med applying to straight Osteo schools (no MD schools) for hte 2007 admission cycle. This is just an observation that I have made. It seems as though the stats for fellowships are a little "out of wack", and I was simply asking for some clarification on this issue. I was not in anyway asking about Neurosurgery and Ortho (I am well aware of the opportunities that are available).

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

I am not particularly interested in cardiology, but I was wondering if U.S. allo schools are not an option, would it be better to go D.O. or FMG if one wanted to compete for a cardiology fellowship (or any other internal medicine fellowship for that matter)?

I ask because I was checking out the stats under the sticky subspecialty FAQ's and it shows that many more FMG's are getting cardiology fellowships than D.O.'s. To me it almost looks as if it is an advantage to be an FMG if one was to pursue a fellowship in internal medicine. Can someone please clarify this for me?

This is what last year 2005 fellowship match statistics say:

~40% IMG matched into Cardiology
~5% DOs matched into Cardiology

 

[Boomer]

This is what last year 2005 fellowship match statistics say:

~40% IMG matched into Cardiology
~5% DOs matched into Cardiology

Actually, these numbers are the percentages of matched fellows of each type. i.e.--5% of the 400 or so people who matched cards were DOs. It doesn't say anything about success rates for each of the subgroups. In fact, the success rates among all the subgroups (IMG, FMG, DO) are all about the same, across all the IM specialties.

Too bad NRMP doesn't tell us how many FMGs applied to each specialty or how many DOs applied to each specialty, etc.

 

[APACHE3]

Hardbody:

I am a pre med applying to straight Osteo schools (no MD schools) for hte 2007 admission cycle. This is just an observation that I have made. It seems as though the stats for fellowships are a little "out of wack", and I was simply asking for some clarification on this issue. I was not in anyway asking about Neurosurgery and Ortho (I am well aware of the opportunities that are available).

You may be aware of the "stats", but only in certain regions will you find a sizeable population of DO's filling the fellowship ranks on a consistent basis. Yes, there are an isolated few at Harvard and Hopkins, but theses are not the norm. As the above post show, 40% of fellowships go to IMG's, 5% to DO's. Of course these numbers can be parlayed anyway you want...the bottom line is..if you want to to do cards, neuro, ortho fellow and you choose DO route, you are already at a disadvantage. One of the ER attending, a DO, was not allowed to do ortho while a doc in the navy because they "didn't take DO's"in that track (IMG's too for that matter), so I can only relay what I've seen and hear, and since your are 4 years away, you have plenty of time to research the issue and map your best strategy..GL!

 

[Hardbody]

One of the ER attending, a DO, was not allowed to do ortho while a doc in the navy because they "didn't take DO's"in that track (IMG's too for that matter)

That is crazy. I thought that the military didn't discriminate against D.O.'s. I am not even interested in any internal medicine sub-specialties, but as you said, I will have four years to think about this so you never know.

 

[Taus]

people....DO's only make up around 5% of all US Doctors.....if there are 5% DO's in a given specialty/fellowship all that is showing is that they are on EVEN footing with an MD (without specifiying USMD/IMG). If you ever see DO's at more then 5% in a given setting, that is actually an over-representation (such as you see in primary care and PM&R). I know I'm just re-hashing the same info...but if you only see 5 DO's out of 100 Docs in a hospital...that is on equal footing to MD's. When you see only 1-2% DO's in a given setting...that is the only time you can say that they are not well represented.

 

[Taus]

That is crazy. I thought that the military didn't discriminate against D.O.'s. I am not even interested in any internal medicine sub-specialties, but as you said, I will have four years to think about this so you never know.

that is a rarity these days...and only really in very few hospitals in certain regions

 

[APACHE3]

Taus is right. As I said, the numbers can be made to fit anybody's point. As I was tried to point out, certain regions of the country you can easily find 20-30% DO's in an allopathic residency or fellowship. But you wont find those numbers at the big academic centers, where US allo grads make up the majority with IMG MD/s following. If you want to go to Columbus, Ohio to do cards, you probably have a good shot, it you want to go to Boston or LA, then your battle will be more difficult. Just do good on your boards and you'll get plenty of intervews. GL

 

[Taus]

Taus is right. As I said, the numbers can be made to fit anybody's point. As I was tried to point out, certain regions of the country you can easily find 20-30% DO's in an allopathic residency or fellowship. But you wont find those numbers at the big academic centers, where US allo grads make up the majority with IMG MD/s following. If you want to go to Columbus, Ohio to do cards, you probably have a good shot, it you want to go to Boston or LA, then your battle will be more difficult. Just do good on your boards and you'll get plenty of intervews. GL

yeah I've heard Boston isn't the friendliest for whatever reason....but as for the northeast in general...take a look at the yellow pages in NY/NJ/PA...plenty of DO cards...(keep in mind the 5% stat though)

 

[daelroy]

I think in the midwest and south, you will find more opportunities for DO's than upper east coast or west coast.

You are mistaken, the west coast clearly favors DO's over FMG's due to the number of DO schools on the west coast. Actually, let's put it this way. The west coast isn't particularly warm to either DO's or FMG's but they really do not like FMG's. So by default, you stand a much better chance as a DO than an FMG in LA and other areas of California. The west coast is very anti-FMG as California is one of the few states that does site visits and verifies carribbean schools; some schools like St. Matthews lacks licensure there. And the west coast does not provide FMG's with ample opportunities to rotate like the east coast does. In fact, I think there is only hospital in California that allows FMG's to do 3rd year core rotations and that is in Bakersfield. This would limit FMG's considerably since students often get residency where they do their rotations. This is where DO's have an advantage because many DO's have schools on the west coast and thus can do their clinicals there. If any part of the country favors FMG's over DO's, it would be the north east coast because of their long history of accepting FMG's both in residency and rotations. And even in regards to the northeast, I'm not certain how much of an advantage FMG's have over DO's; it's not like the midwest where there is an obvious bias toward DO's.

To answer the OP's question, there are far more FMG's in this country than DO's so naturally the numbers might appear skewed and seem like FMG's are favored. Considering that half of all IM residents are FMG's, it shouldn't suprise anyone if many FMG's match in cardiology. That in no way suggests that you have better odds as an FMG when trying to match in cardiology. I know many IM programs have trouble filling with U.S. graduates including DO's and thus will take FMG's outside the match just so they can fill. This is why a lot of IM programs are filled with FMG's. But a qualified DO can walk into almost any competitive IM program outside the uber programs on the east coast like MGH. The same cannot be said of an FMG. They too can match at these same programs but they need better numbers than DO's to do so, again the exception would be on the east coast.

 

[spyyder]

California isn't the only state on the west coast. Also there is a HUGE difference in the number of IMG vs. FMG that match into cards.

 

[tkim]

In fact, I think there is only hospital in California that allows FMG's to do 3rd year core rotations and that is in Bakersfield.

I saw a lot of Ross students rotate through Arrowhead in Colton and Riverside in ... Riverside. These were core rotations, too.

 

[daelroy]

California isn't the only state on the west coast. Also there is a HUGE difference in the number of IMG vs. FMG that match into cards.

Uh...the term FMG and IMG are interchangeable. There is no difference in the meaning between the two. FMG's recently began calling themselves IMG's because they feel "international" medical graduate sounds better than "foreign" medical graduate. It doesn't matter whether you are a U.S. citizen or a foreign national. The fact that you trained outside the United States means you are a graduate of a foreign medical school and thus an FMG or IMG whichever you prefer. If you interpret IMG to mean a U.S. citizen that has trained overseas, I can understand your point to a degree. They will have better communication skills since they were raised in the U.S. and thus be more equipped to network with fellowship directors. However, I have seen a lot of Indian and Chinese citizens match in cardiology so I don't really know how true that is.

I'm aware there are other states on the west coast but I was just using California as an example since it happens to be the largest and most populous state. And we are making generalizations. There are many DO schools on the east coast so one could argue that the east coast prefers DO's over FMG/IMG's if they really wanted to do so. However, if you look at the overall trend for the last 2 decades, I would say the east coast tends to prefer FMG/IMG's. Almost all FMG/IMG's rotate on the east coast so most of them tend to remain on the east coast for residency. Thus programs that are used to taking FMG's will tend to prefer them. Likewise, many more DO's rotate on the west coast than FMG's so west coast programs tend to prefer DO's over IMG's. Therefore, DO's will have an easier time matching in the west coast.

 

[daelroy]

I saw a lot of Ross students rotate through Arrowhead in Colton and Riverside in ... Riverside. These were core rotations, too.

This must be recent because as of 3 years ago, this wasn't the case. My cousin is from California and a Ross student. The only hospital in California that would take FMG's in core rotations was Bakersfield. And this also applied to St. George and AUC students so you can imagine the competition for Bakersfield at the time.

 

[allendo]

that is a rarity these days...and only really in very few hospitals in certain regions

the military doesn't do this, why else would they pay so much for your education to limit you in your choices.

 

[daelroy]

Hardbody: One of the ER attending, a DO, was not allowed to do ortho while a doc in the navy because they "didn't take DO's"in that track (IMG's too for that matter), so I can only relay what I've seen and hear, and since your are 4 years away, you have plenty of time to research the issue and map your best strategy..GL!

Likewise, I know an IMG who couldn't match into an IM program at a community hospital because they were hesitant to take IMG's unless they scored really high on the boards. Would I apply this rule to all community IM programs? Of course not. Likewise, it's well known the military doesn't discriminate against DO's. I know a person who matched in radonc in the Navy and Radonc is more difficult to match in than orthopedic surgery.

 

[spyyder]

Uh...the term FMG and IMG are interchangeable. There is no difference in the meaning between the two. FMG's recently began calling themselves IMG's because they feel "international" medical graduate sounds better than "foreign" medical graduate. It doesn't matter whether you are a U.S. citizen or a foreign national. The fact that you trained outside the United States means you are a graduate of a foreign medical school and thus an FMG or IMG whichever you prefer. If you interpret IMG to mean a U.S. citizen that has trained overseas, I can understand your point to a degree. They will have better communication skills since they were raised in the U.S. and thus be more equipped to network with fellowship directors. However, I have seen a lot of Indian and Chinese citizens match in cardiology so I don't really know how true that is.

I'm aware there are other states on the west coast but I was just using California as an example since it happens to be the largest and most populous state. And we are making generalizations. There are many DO schools on the east coast so one could argue that the east coast prefers DO's over FMG/IMG's if they really wanted to do so. However, if you look at the overall trend for the last 2 decades, I would say the east coast tends to prefer FMG/IMG's. Almost all FMG/IMG's rotate on the east coast so most of them tend to remain on the east coast for residency. Thus programs that are used to taking FMG's will tend to prefer them. Likewise, many more DO's rotate on the west coast than FMG's so west coast programs tend to prefer DO's over IMG's. Therefore, DO's will have an easier time matching in the west coast.

No, FMG and IMG is a recognized difference. Also consider that 20% of all residcies are located in New York, so of course the east coast will see more FMG (NY is also an accrediting body for schools). Most don't go to cali, because its a crappy state to practice medicine in, that is saturated with to many doctors. DO will not have an easier time on the west coast. There are a lot of foriengers in Cali.

Also, most people who come from outside the US have a greater command of the english languange than most US applicants. Its a gross generalization that foriegners cannot speak english and have accents therefore have poor communication skills

School Matched Percent
US Grad 442 66%
US Foreign 37 6%
Osteo 28 4%
Foreign 157 23%

What I was however saying is that FMGs have a better shot than IMGs. Keep in mind DO's have their own fellowship programs in cards.

http://www.nrmp.org/fellow/match_name/msmp/stats.html

 

[novacek88]

No, FMG and IMG is a recognized difference. Also consider that 20% of all residcies are located in New York, so of course the east coast will see more FMG (NY is also an accrediting body for schools). Most don't go to cali, because its a crappy state to practice medicine in, that is saturated with to many doctors. DO will not have an easier time on the west coast. There are a lot of foriengers in Cali.

Also, most people who come from outside the US have a greater command of the english languange than most US applicants. Its a gross generalization that foriegners cannot speak english and have accents therefore have poor communication skills

School Matched Percent
US Grad 442 66%
US Foreign 37 6%
Osteo 28 4%
Foreign 157 23%

What I was however saying is that FMGs have a better shot than IMGs. Keep in mind DO's have their own fellowship programs in cards.

http://www.nrmp.org/fellow/match_name/msmp/stats.html

California is still a very sought after state to do residency and practice. If you actually spent any time in California, you would know this. It may be a crappy place to practice medicine but the lifestyle and weather far exceeds that of New York which is why the demand for it is considerably greater than the east coast. Ask any applicant about how difficult it is obtain a residency in even a community program in LA. It's far easier obtaining a residency in NY than LA. The reason for the large numbers of IMG's in the New York/New Jersey area is due to the rotation opportunities that exist there. There are not many places outside NY/NJ that allow IMG's to do core rotations. Opportunities have opened up for them but it's not anywhere close to the number of opportunities that exist for DO's in regards to doing clinical rotations.

Foreigners may have a better grasp of British English but they don't have a better grasp of American English and customs. And along with American English comes American customs that foreigners struggle with. Someone who grew up in the United States will have an advantage when it comes to applying these customs and accent. Remember, you are training in the United States not India or England. So even if you think Americans have a weaker grasp of the English language, it's these same dumb Americans you have to please so keep that in mind before you question our grasp of English.

 

[novacek88]

Hardbody

Unless you really want an M.D. behind your name, you should always seek out the DO instead of an IMG. It may be unfair but the age old rule still applies which is MD > DO > IMG. M.D.'s are given preference over D.O.'s because it's more difficult to get accepted into an M.D. school. Likewise, D.O.'s are preferred over IMG's because it's more difficult to get into a DO school. Sure, there are exceptions. There are some DO schools that are tougher to get into than some M.D. schools. And St. George is probably tougher to get into than some of the bottom tier DO schools but in general the rule still applies.

I'm a DO that has recently obtained a GI fellowship. GI at my program is more competitive than Cards and I could have easily obtained Cards if that's what I wanted to do. So I do know a little about this subject. At your own program, it doesn't matter whether you are a DO or an IMG. However, when I applied to outside programs, I got several more interviews than my IMG colleagues. I don't know if their failure to obtain interviews was due to discrimination. Some of IMG colleagues felt they were unfairly discriminated against. Now they are electing to do a year of research to improve their chances for the next cycle. Again, at our program, it didn't matter what your status was. They only cared how you performed as a resident, your research and interpersonal skills, but everything changed when it came to applying to programs outside of our own. Like others have mentioned, I'm sure there are pockets or areas where IMGs are given priority but in general, DO's are given priority over IMG's.

The statistics above do not suprise me. Many IMG's are forced to doing internal medicine and other primary care fields because unlike DO's, they don't have their own residency programs. If 40% of all medicine residents are IMGs and FMG's then naturally you are going to have a higher percentage of them match into fellowships. DO's have other options because they have their own residency. For example, a DO has the option of applying to an osteopathic general surgery program. An IMG has to compete with U.S. grads for their own spots without any other programs to turn to so they are at a disadvantage and thus will settle on IM. So an IMG with sugery aspirations and above average stats may have to settle on internal medicine whereas a DO with the same stats would have other options available to him or her. Remember DO's only comprise of about 5% of all physicians in the United States. Those statistics do not in any way suggest you have a better chance as an IMG/FMG.

Regarding the west coast issue, the west coast is the most competitive place to apply to. I don't think the quality of the programs in the west coast are superior to that of the east coast or any other place. But there is a fascination with the west and people would love to move to Seattle, Portland, LA, SF, San Diego Las Vegas, Phoenix etc However, there aren't enough spots and west coast programs prefer their own people before accepting outsiders. As of now there are 4 DO schools in the west coast so their graduates are given preference over IMG's in general.

 

[spyyder]

California is still a very sought after state to do residency and practice. If you actually spent any time in California, you would know this. It may be a crappy place to practice medicine but the lifestyle and weather far exceeds that of New York which is why the demand for it is considerably greater than the east coast. Ask any applicant about how difficult it is obtain a residency in even a community program in LA. It's far easier obtaining a residency in NY than LA. The reason for the large numbers of IMG's in the New York/New Jersey area is due to the rotation opportunities that exist there. There are not many places outside NY/NJ that allow IMG's to do core rotations. Opportunities have opened up for them but it's not anywhere close to the number of opportunities that exist for DO's in regards to doing clinical rotations.

Foreigners may have a better grasp of British English but they don't have a better grasp of American English and customs. And along with American English comes American customs that foreigners struggle with. Someone who grew up in the United States will have an advantage when it comes to applying these customs and accent. Remember, you are training in the United States not India or England. So even if you think Americans have a weaker grasp of the English language, it's these same dumb Americans you have to please so keep that in mind before you question our grasp of English.

American English and customs don't treat patients, good doctors do. And no I am not a foreigner.

 

[novacek88]

American English and customs don't treat patients, good doctors do.

You sound awfully naive. Where are you in your education now? Once you get to clinicals, you will realize that impressing others has little to do with your knowledge as a physician and mostly do with how well you get along with others. Sorry but the fact is you will have an easier time getting to know others and impressing them if you are familiar with American English and customs. It's much easier to relate to other Americans that way. I'm not saying FMG's can't succeed at doing this but the ones who have succeeded have mastered American English and customs. And I'm sure you are not a foreigner.

 

[Hardbody]

Hardbody

Unless you really want an M.D. behind your name, you should always seek out the DO instead of an IMG

No doubt about it, I am going D.O., since D.O. schools are the ONLY schools I am applying to. I was just curious about this information, thank you for the well thought out post.

 

[Qtip96]

OMFG, another MD, DO, FMG thread!
i really wish everyone gets over categorically binning docs by these criteria!

i went with a top ivy league medical school and completed very competitive IM residency and fellowships (not to say you should listen to me any more tho' ).

in med school, the IM chief resident during my medicine clerkship was a DO.
in residency, my FMG colleague was selected as the chief resident (he deserved it 'cuz he was a damn good doc and good with people).
hmmm, the former chair of cards and now chair if medicine at Duke (Pascal Goldschmidt) is a FMG (from Belgium).

no matter where you get your degree, just try to be the best physician you can be, contribute to original research, be good at communicating (an accent can in fact be charming), and be the kind of person your colleagues can depend on and respect. if anyone tells you you can't achieve your dream on account of a DO or FMG, say 'thank you' (a fight is worthless and you are not likely to sway anyone's opnion ), promptly forget what they said, and keep chuggin' along until you get there on your own.

 

[Hardbody]

No, FMG and IMG is a recognized difference. Also consider that 20% of all residcies are located in New York, so of course the east coast will see more FMG (NY is also an accrediting body for schools). Most don't go to cali, because its a crappy state to practice medicine in, that is saturated with to many doctors. DO will not have an easier time on the west coast. There are a lot of foriengers in Cali.

Also, most people who come from outside the US have a greater command of the english languange than most US applicants. Its a gross generalization that foriegners cannot speak english and have accents therefore have poor communication skills

School Matched Percent
US Grad 442 66%
US Foreign 37 6%
Osteo 28 4%
Foreign 157 23%

What I was however saying is that FMGs have a better shot than IMGs. Keep in mind DO's have their own fellowship programs in cards.

http://www.nrmp.org/fellow/match_name/msmp/stats.html

This was the link I was looking for, perhaps this thread should be stickied or at least have the above link stickied? Thank you.

 

[daelroy]

Something else to consider is research opportunities. Since research will be a key factor in the selection, it's something to seriously consider if you are thinking of an internal medicine subspecialty. You will have many more research opportunities as a DO since you will spend your first 2 years in the U.S. You can do research on campus or at a local hospital/academic center. I know it will be almost impossible to do research while you are in Dominica or Grenada for example since most of their professors are not active in research and there are no big academic centers nearby. Most DO schools are located within or near large academic centers and most of their faculty is involved with research so research opportunities are available to students even at the private DO schools. It's almost impossible to start a quality research project during clinicals to the point you can publish something. It usually takes at least a year to get published so most medical students start their research during basic sciences.

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

This must be recent because as of 3 years ago, this wasn't the case. My cousin is from California and a Ross student. The only hospital in California that would take FMG's in core rotations was Bakersfield. And this also applied to St. George and AUC students so you can imagine the competition for Bakersfield at the time.

Ross has plenty of spots in CA. Another advantage of ross is that you can schedule your own electives...if you know people in various hospitals.

 

[Fascia Lata]

Also, most people who come from outside the US have a greater command of the english languange than most US applicants. Its a gross generalization that foriegners cannot speak english and have accents therefore have poor communication skills

This is one of the strangest assumptions I've come across on SDN. No matter how good the FMG is in English (unless he has a degree in English literature or something), being born, raised up and educated in the US would make a US citizen much more proficient in his/her mothertongue language. There is no way u can convince me that an Indian/Middle Eastern FMG can speak better English than does a US citizen just because they r more acquainted with the British accent or because they have studied "proper" English in school, which is in turn a false assumption. Let alone the communication skills, which are, at most times, a big disadvantage for many well qualified foreign doctors.

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

OMFG, another MD, DO, FMG thread!
i really wish everyone gets over categorically binning docs by these criteria!

i went with a top ivy league medical school and completed very competitive IM residency and fellowships (not to say you should listen to me any more tho' ).

in med school, the IM chief resident during my medicine clerkship was a DO.
in residency, my FMG colleague was selected as the chief resident (he deserved it 'cuz he was a damn good doc and good with people).
hmmm, the former chair of cards and now chair if medicine at Duke (Pascal Goldschmidt) is a FMG (from Belgium).

no matter where you get your degree, just try to be the best physician you can be, contribute to original research, be good at communicating (an accent can in fact be charming), and be the kind of person your colleagues can depend on and respect. if anyone tells you you can't achieve your dream on account of a DO or FMG, say 'thank you' (a fight is worthless and you are not likely to sway anyone's opnion ), promptly forget what they said, and keep chuggin' along until you get there on your own.

Very well said.....

 

[esposo]

Ross has plenty of spots in CA.

Ross supposedly had a campus in Wyoming too.

We have heard the tall tales before. When you read statements like "Ross has plenty of spots in CA", buyer beware, there is always a catch. Case in point, Ross boasts about it's high board passage rate. What they don't tell you is that they limit the exam to students who passed a self-imposed shelf exam. This is purposefully done to inflate it's passage rate by preventing it's weak students from sitting for the exam. It doesn't stop there. In the past Ross would deliberately fail to mention the first-time board passage rate. Obviously, the passage rate will be higher when you include re-testers so Ross purposefully and clandestinely leaves out the "first-time" terminology to give the false impression their students do nearly as well as U.S. students on the boards. It doesn't stop with board scores either. Every year, Ross deliberately conceals which of their general surgery positions are prelim and categorical. To the untrained eye, it will appear as if 20 students matched in categorical surgery positions when that is far from the truth.

Back to this example, I'm sure Ross has spots in California. The term "plenty" is subjective and could mean anything. You also have to question the availability of such spots. In other words, do they have enough spots to satisfy all those students who wish to go to California? Does a Ross student truly have the same opportunity as a U.S. student to rotate there? Are all Ross students capable of rotating there or are they limited to the top students in the class. And by "plenty" of programs are we talking 5 or 50? It's those little details that Ross and it's students are known for leaving out. It's classic salesman gimic; they are not lying but they are not exactly volunteering all the facts either. It's much easier just to say "Ross has plenty of spots."

The current trend is for Ross students to boast about how competitive it's admissions has become. They will even cite recent admission stats. No, they are not lying about these stats. And yes, their recent stats are respectable and more competitive than in recent years. So what's the catch? Ross students fail to include that Ross still accepts students 3 times per year which improves ones chances even when compared to the new osteopathic schools who accepts students once per year. The average GPA might be a 3.0 for both schools but if one schools accepts 200 students three times per year and the other accepts 100 once per year, which one would be more difficult to enter? Your odds of being accepted to Ross are much better than even the worst U.S. school.

My advice is if you want to know anything about Ross, send a PM to Eric Raj since he is a Ross graduate. Eric isn't afraid to criticize his alma mater for it's deficiencies.

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

Ross supposedly had a campus in Wyoming too.

We have heard the tall tales before. When you read statements like "Ross has plenty of spots in CA", buyer beware, there is always a catch. Case in point, Ross boasts about it's high board passage rate. What they don't tell you is that they limit the exam to students who passed a self-imposed shelf exam. This is purposefully done to inflate it's passage rate by preventing it's weak students from sitting for the exam. It doesn't stop there. In the past Ross would deliberately fail to mention the first-time board passage rate. Obviously, the passage rate will be higher when you include re-testers so Ross purposefully and clandestinely leaves out the "first-time" terminology to give the false impression their students do nearly as well as U.S. students on the boards. It doesn't stop with board scores either. Every year, Ross deliberately conceals which of their general surgery positions are prelim and categorical. To the untrained eye, it will appear as if 20 students matched in categorical surgery positions when that is far from the truth.

Back to this example, I'm sure Ross has spots in California. The term "plenty" is subjective and could mean anything. You also have to question the availability of such spots. In other words, do they have enough spots to satisfy all those students who wish to go to California? Does a Ross student truly have the same opportunity as a U.S. student to rotate there? Are all Ross students capable of rotating there or are they limited to the top students in the class. And by "plenty" of programs are we talking 5 or 50? It's those little details that Ross and it's students are known for leaving out. It's classic salesman gimic; they are not lying but they are not exactly volunteering all the facts either. It's much easier just to say "Ross has plenty of spots."

The current trend is for Ross students to boast about how competitive it's admissions has become. They will even cite recent admission stats. No, they are not lying about these stats. And yes, their recent stats are respectable and more competitive than in recent years. So what's the catch? Ross students fail to include that Ross still accepts students 3 times per year which improves ones chances even when compared to the new osteopathic schools who accepts students once per year. The average GPA might be a 3.0 for both schools but if one schools accepts 200 students three times per year and the other accepts 100 once per year, which one would be more difficult to enter? Your odds of being accepted to Ross are much better than even the worst U.S. school.

My advice is if you want to know anything about Ross, send a PM to Eric Raj since he is a Ross graduate. Eric isn't afraid to criticize his alma mater for it's deficiencies.

Dude...if you are not happy with ross...dont apply....

 

[esposo]

Dude...if you are not happy with ross...dont apply....

For the sake of civility, I edited my response. I didn't apply to Ross because of the information I researched and received from fellow applicants who researched other schools. It would have been nice if Ross students were more helpful and didn't try to mislead applicant by embellishing the truth such as :"There are plenty of spots in California"

 

[hndrx1a]

"hmmm, the former chair of cards and now chair if medicine at Duke (Pascal Goldschmidt) is a FMG (from Belgium)."



Hey Qtip- Pascal Goldschmidt MD is now Senior Vice President for Medical Affairs and Dean of Univ Miami School of Medicine...not bad for an FMG!

 

[Qtip96]

"hmmm, the former chair of cards and now chair if medicine at Duke (Pascal Goldschmidt) is a FMG (from Belgium)."

Hey Qtip- Pascal Goldschmidt MD is now Senior Vice President for Medical Affairs and Dean of Univ Miami School of Medicine...not bad for an FMG!

hehe... i stand corrected!

 

[neuroguy1]

This is one of the strangest assumptions I've come across on SDN. No matter how good the FMG is in English (unless he has a degree in English literature or something), being born, raised up and educated in the US would make a US citizen much more proficient in his/her mothertongue language. There is no way u can convince me that an Indian/Middle Eastern FMG can speak better English than does a US citizen just because they r more acquainted with the British accent or because they have studied "proper" English in school, which is in turn a false assumption. Let alone the communication skills, which are, at most times, a big disadvantage for many well qualified foreign doctors.

i couldnt agree more.i am an fmg and i can say for certain that no matter how good an fmg is his communication skills in english wont be as good as someone born and raised in the usa or any other english speaking country.im not saying that all US graduates have communication skills better than all fmgs..but i can safely say that 90 percent or more do.
however the other skills of fmgs as far as their calibre in being a good doctor or doing well on the boards n their first attempt and scoring well is concerned,it cannot be questioned.there are many parts of the world besides europe where students have to work as hard as anywhere in the usa and only the cream of the country goes into medical schools.i would especially include india pakistan and bangladesh in the list. ive had interaction with doctors who have worked with doctors from all over the world... and most agreed on the fact that the united states trains the best surgeons,the UK trains the best physicians and that people from india pakistan and bangladesh have on the whole had a better training than doctors from the middle east.
i will just say here that my medical school students didnt have an inclination towards usmle and getting a training in the united states untill last year.most of them used to go for the UK.but the last yrs usmle step1 scores of our graduates wasnt so bad..i got the lowest in my class..219 in step1 and its a class of 200 students...so the calibre cannot be bad at all.

 

[Qtip96]

This is one of the strangest assumptions I've come across on SDN. No matter how good the FMG is in English (unless he has a degree in English literature or something), being born, raised up and educated in the US would make a US citizen much more proficient in his/her mothertongue language. There is no way u can convince me that an Indian/Middle Eastern FMG can speak better English than does a US citizen just because they r more acquainted with the British accent or because they have studied "proper" English in school, which is in turn a false assumption. Let alone the communication skills, which are, at most times, a big disadvantage for many well qualified foreign doctors.

hehe. one time Pascal Goldschmidt gave a talk at Johns Hopkins, and he stated in a very thick but eloquent Belgian accent, "fuhckus, fuhckus... can some help me fuhckus?" this was immediately followed by bewildered looks and a few snickers. it tooks a few moments for people to figure out that he was trying to say "FOCUS", and someone promptly went to fix the projector.

 

[esposo]

"hmmm, the former chair of cards and now chair if medicine at Duke (Pascal Goldschmidt) is a FMG (from Belgium)."



Hey Qtip- Pascal Goldschmidt MD is now Senior Vice President for Medical Affairs and Dean of Univ Miami School of Medicine...not bad for an FMG!

The name and reputation of the medical school needs to be emphasized when discussing FMG's. When people refer to IMG/FMG in a derogatory sense, they are referring to students who graduate from the for-profit private medical schools like Ross in the Caribbean, Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, St. Christophers in England and Manipal in India. The reason this needs to be emphasized is because many FMG's are people who earned admission to their country's competitive medical schools and are our version of U.S. M.D. students. These FMG's are treated differently than USIMG's and FMG's from those known private schools like Manipal and Ross that accept anyone. Usually, when you hear of an FMG acquire some prestigious position, this isn't someone who went to the Caribbean or even one of those for-profit private medical schools in India, Ireland, Poland or the Czech Republic. I promise you that if you hear about an FMG match into something challenging, it will usually be one of these types of FMGs. There is a clear distinction among FMG's and they shouldn't all be grouped together. Someone who was admitted to his medical school in Belgium isn't the same as someone who attended St. Christophers.

 

[Qtip96]

good point esposo.

 

[hndrx1a]

I understand the point you make, but...who are these people that " refer to IMG/FMG in a derogatory sense " ? Are we talking about the same people that also have a problem with DO's ?...or are we talking about the ones that insist on only seeing a physician with a particular ethnic background? Brother when it comes down to it, if they are biased to begin with, it's not even going to matter if you came from Oxford!

And Goldschmidt? Well, he's a special breed- one with an internal fire that no matter where he's from, he just strives for excellence...
He is the Tiger Woods of FMG's.

 

[BlahtoThis]

Would that make Fuster Phil Mickelson?

 

[hndrx1a]

hehehhe- naw, dude- Daly with the powerswing!

 

[esposo]

I understand the point you make, but...who are these people that " refer to IMG/FMG in a derogatory sense " ? Are we talking about the same people that also have a problem with DO's ?...or are we talking about the ones that insist on only seeing a physician with a particular ethnic background? Brother when it comes down to it, if they are biased to begin with, it's not even going to matter if you came from Oxford!

These people would be program directors. PD's discriminate against applicants based on his or her school status which is an indirect measure of the applicant's merit. It is more difficult to get accepted into a DO school than a caribbean school in general, thus DO's will be rewarded by being selected over USIMG's assuming the credentials of the students being compared were similar. The same principle applies in regards to U.S. allopathic students being selected over DO's. This type of discrimination is based on merit and not ethnic or geographic factors. The exception occurs when the FMG is someone who was admitted to his or her country's own medical school. PD's recognize that these applicants did earn admission to their country's medical school and thus they will be evaluated differently than a USIMG who attended one of the many for-profit schools like Ross, Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland etc. Again, it's important to specify where the FMG graduated from.

 

[hndrx1a]

Thing of it is, that once you are applying to Cards- as any specialty in Medicine- what PD's eval you with is your Int Med residency...if you've made it that far, Med School and especially which foreign med school you attended is not as important.

 

[esposo]

Thing of it is, that once you are applying to Cards- as any specialty in Medicine- what PD's eval you with is your Int Med residency...if you've made it that far, Med School and especially which foreign med school you attended is not as important.

True, but you will have an easier time matching into a competitive Int Med residency as a DO versus being an USIMG in general due to the reasons associated with merit discussed above.

 

[hndrx1a]

Don't know if that would be an issue, especially with plenty of open spots available- USMLE as well as individual hussle will get you the Int Med residency you want...why bother yourself with DO better than USIMG as it will be an individual thing in the end.

 

[esposo]

Don't know if that would be an issue, especially with plenty of open spots available- USMLE as well as individual hussle will get you the Int Med residency you want...why bother yourself with DO better than USIMG as it will be an individual thing in the end.

Because you get to study in the United States and you can have many more options available to you. Most programs don't distinquish between IMG and DO but some programs overwhelmingly favor DO's like the Cleveland Clinic. Why make your life more difficult if you don't have to. The lifestyle issues alone of studying abroad justify the DO route. If you are concerned with the initials, they aren't going to matter when you are a cardiologist. Most cardiologists are booked months in advance whether they are M.D. or D.O.

 

[hndrx1a]

bump

 

[BlahtoThis]

I think it would be best if people separated out what they're talking about:

American DO grads
American grads going to a pay-for school in the Caribbean or elsewhere to get a medical degree
Foreign grads from big name foreign med schools
Foreign grads from average foreign med schools

The "big name" docs who have studied abroad are usually from the 3rd category and can be considered on par with grads from the top allopathic US schools.

The other 3 have varying degrees of competitiveness and I'm not well versed in how they relate, but I'd say, given equal caliber candidates from each school, the DO may win out followed by the Caribbean grad and then the average med school foreign grad.