d.o's not allowed to rotate at Rush anymore...

[MRa2z]

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Hey guys...
just ran across this news earlier today and was kind of shocked:

i'm from chicago and am currently an MS-1 at Nova..I was back home for thanksgiving and heard the news . I was looking forward to rotating at Rush in a few years - but i guess osteopathic medical students are no longer allowed to rotate here, as of this fall - including CCOM students.

It's so strange because about 1/4th of the physicians at Rush are D.O's, and many residents as well. Why would they do this? I'm fairly upset as I'm from Chicago and have heard great things about the Rush rotations...

I got the news from a friend whose father is in Academia At Rush' s medical school.

thoughts?

 

[ShyRem]

where did you hear this?

 

[ShyRem]

Hm. On Rush's on website, it does state:

Clinical Elective Rotations for Visiting Medical Students

For 2007-2008 Rush will accept students ONLY from 4-year allopathic U.S. LCME-accredited medical schools.

But it also says on another webpage:

The third year medicine clerkship is offered to students at our affiliate schools: Rush University, Midwestern University/Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine, and Chicago Medical School. However, the fourth year subinternship and other fourth year electives are open to all students who attend an American medical school.

So.... which page do you believe?

 

[MRa2z]

i believe what i heard, because I guess it is effective as of this fall - i dont know why this is the case. seems like they are moving backwards in terms of equality for D.O's...kinda gets me down

 

[medhacker]

Verifiable source is needed

If true, it's most likely basis for legal action.

 

[MRa2z]

sadly, it is true...

it's on the Rush website twice over :

1) http://www.rushu.rush.edu/servlet/S...agename=Rush/content_block/ContentBlockDetail

2.)http://www.rushu.rush.edu/medcol/visiting.html

I don't see how it's basis for medical action, its' rush's choice, isnt it?

 

[medhacker]

Many times, programs will say LCME only to indicate FMGs are not accepted but they will accept U.S. DO students. The only way to know if this is the case is getting it from the horse's mouth.

It may be basis for legal action because there is legislation that prohibits discrimination againts DOs in all 50 states, even with precedents where the suits have prevailed against other MD programs.

 

[sexyman]

This is disapointing. They did go out of their way to say "ONLY from 4-year allopathic"

I am surprised they are getting away with this.

 

[gclax30]

This is disapointing. They did go out of their way to say "ONLY from 4-year allopathic"

I am surprised they are getting away with this.

I ran into a similar situation I thought with Dartmouth and Yale, their websites say essentially the same thing, but after emailing the GME folks they said DOs were welcome. I guess they figured LCME would include all U.S. students. Lets not get all crazy with "legal action" talk until someone finds out from a first hand source.

 

[medhacker]

This is disapointing. They did go out of their way to say "ONLY from 4-year allopathic"

I am surprised they are getting away with this.

If indeed they are discriminating against DOs, they will get away with it if no one, with legal standing, takes action.

Physicians are not the most united bunch of all, if no one takes action it wil sadly stay like that. Those most directly affected are left to decide what to do.

 

[medhacker]

I ran into a similar situation I thought with Dartmouth and Yale, their websites say essentially the same thing, but after emailing the GME folks they said DOs were welcome. I guess they figured LCME would include all U.S. students. Lets not get all crazy with "legal action" talk until someone finds out from a first hand source.

That is what I stated before. Many times it says that to indicate FMGs are not welcome, but DOs are.

 

[sexyman]

I hope so. Someone call! (I know I will forget tomorrow)

 

[mastamark]

I don't think this is necessarily discimination. Rush is an extremely popular rotation site in chicago. They are probably overwhelmed with allopathic rotaters let alone osteopathic. Lets not forget this is a relatively small hospital we are talking about here. I know this because I frequent this hospital(been there last week) as a paramedic. This is probably just a way for them to ease the traffic a little, they may change it in the future. I mean with Stroger(county) UofI, Sinai, and the VA in the same area why belly ache over Rush? Those places most definitely take DO students, they even have DO residency programs.

 

[medhacker]

I hope so. Someone call! (I know I will forget tomorrow)

Exactly!!

 

[orangr85]

I just got off the phone with my friend's father ( who is the source of this for me ), He is a professor at Rush Medical College as well as a practicing physician with whom students rotate.

Unfortunately, he confirmed what we've all read on the website, and said that for reasons beyond his control D.O's are no longer rotating at Rush. He has no clue why this happened...just as confused as we are. He told me to call the Dean's office tomorow and ask them directly , though he said he was 99% sure this was the case.

i'll try and call when i get a chance and see what happens..

sucks though.

 

[medhacker]

I don't think this is necessarily discimination. Rush is an extremely popular rotation site in chicago. They are probably overwhelmed with allopathic rotaters let alone osteopathic. Lets not forget this is a relatively small hospital we are talking about here. I know this because I frequent this hospital(been there last week) as a paramedic. This is probably just a way for them to ease the traffic a little, they may change it in the future. I mean with Stroger(county) UofI, Sinai, and the VA in the same area why belly ache over Rush? Those places most definitely take DO students, they even have DO residency programs.

If a program is overwhelmed with applicants, and its basis for accepting applicants is whether they are MD students or not, they are indeed discriminating against DO students.

If the basis for acceptance were academic, etc then you could argue there was no discrimination.

 

[mastamark]

If a program is overwhelmed with applicants, and its basis for accepting applicants is whether they are MD students or not, they are indeed discriminating against DO students.

If the basis for acceptance were academic, etc then you could argue there was no discrimination.

I see your point. Won't argue. I guess this affects you guys that actually want to go there more than me.

 

[medhacker]

I see your point. Won't argue. I guess this affects you guys that actually want to go there more than me.

I don't want to go there personally, but hate to see others get short shafted because they ignore their rights.


If, indeed, there is some sort of discrimination, those affected directly should contact the AOA legal department to learn if they have a case. It's free for members - that is students.

 

[Jesus DO]

Hey guys...
just ran across this news earlier today and was kind of shocked:

i'm from chicago and am currently an MS-1 at Nova..I was back home for thanksgiving and heard the news . I was looking forward to rotating at Rush in a few years - but i guess osteopathic medical students are no longer allowed to rotate here, as of this fall - including CCOM students.

It's so strange because about 1/4th of the physicians at Rush are D.O's, and many residents as well. Why would they do this? I'm fairly upset as I'm from Chicago and have heard great things about the Rush rotations...

I got the news from a friend whose father is in Academia At Rush' s medical school.

thoughts?

I'm not sure what to make of this thread. Thank you for brining it up though. There were several familiy members of the Rush family that went to the school I am currently attending - however I do not know for certain what they went into, etc. It might be that there were other things involved as well - maybe they just want to capp the number of all students rotating there? Maybe they're making it hard for allopathic students as well?

Interesting thread. Please post some info when you get around to some it.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Can we still rotate at Bill O'Riley?

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

I just wanted to add that non-LCME school students cannot rotate at the University of Iowa hospital, but can rotate at its affliates. And I'm sure Rush is developing the same policy, that DO's can rotate at affliates, but not the flagship hospital. I think this stems from one part snobbery and one part is that DO's dont make residencies for MD's. Somehow we still manage to match there, weird.

 

[Beau Geste]

Can we still rotate at Bill O'Riley?

O'Reilly

And this stinks.

 

[Jesus DO]

I just wanted to add that non-LCME school students cannot rotate at the University of Iowa hospital, but can rotate at its affliates. And I'm sure Rush is developing the same policy, that DO's can rotate at affliates, but not the flagship hospital. I think this stems from one part snobbery and one part is that DO's dont make residencies for MD's.

I thought that with the dual AOA/AGCME programs, we were allowing some of our PGY 1,2,3,4 to be open to MDs? Even thought it would still be pretty much AOA controlled.

Maybe I am wrong? Can someone correct me please?

 

[Northerner]

I just wanted to add that non-LCME school students cannot rotate at the University of Iowa hospital, but can rotate at its affliates. And I'm sure Rush is developing the same policy, that DO's can rotate at affliates, but not the flagship hospital. I think this stems from one part snobbery and one part is that DO's dont make residencies for MD's. Somehow we still manage to match there, wierd.

Good point. I'd be interested to hear what response you "LET'S SUE!" people have to say about that.

...and it's "weird".

 

[packitinstan]

how common is it for hospitals to deny rotations to DO students?

 

[orangr85]

I just wanted to add that non-LCME school students cannot rotate at the University of Iowa hospital, but can rotate at its affliates. And I'm sure Rush is developing the same policy, that DO's can rotate at affliates, but not the flagship hospital. I think this stems from one part snobbery and one part is that DO's dont make residencies for MD's. Somehow we still manage to match there, wierd.

why would Rush start snobbery now? they've been rotating CCOM students as well as other D.O 4th years for ages now...doesnt make sense for them to be snobs now, out of nowhere.

and if it's some sort of revenge for not having MD spots in D.O residencies - wouldnt they make the residencies more competitive, why would they screw around with medical students??

 

[orangr85]

how common is it for hospitals to deny rotations to DO students?

it's not common at All. which is why it is so strange.

it sucks, but i guess if this really is rush's policy, there isnt much we can do about it. luckily, pretty much every other school in chicago rotates D.O students, so its not like our options are limited..

 

[DO Anes]

Is this is the first symptom of a clinical training crunch? Too many students, not enough spaces?

 

[Beau Geste]

Is this is the first symptom of a clinical training crunch? Too many students, not enough spaces?

the sky is not falling.

 

[scpod]

Is this is the first symptom of a clinical training crunch? Too many students, not enough spaces?

No. I've called over a dozen hospitals looking at places to do electives and have had great responses so far. Many of them are bending over backwards to help me. There are a bunch of hospitals looking at starting residency programs (contrary to what the doomsday crowd will tell you) and they really want students to rotate there.

 

[Northerner]

the sky is not falling.

Of course as an "MS-0", you're in a unique position to comment on the state of clinical training in the U.S.

 

[Beau Geste]

Of course as an "MS-0", you're in a unique position to comment on the state of clinical training in the U.S.

No reason to be a jerk. Scpod's post just before confirms this.

 

[Northerner]

No reason to be a jerk. Scpod's post just before confirms this.

To be fair, I thought it was pretty "jerky" to condescend to an anesthesiology attending. And not in the delicious beef way.

And scpod's post, while informative and pertinent, doesn't prove or confirm anything. Although I'm sure he'll be ecstatic that he has your support.

 

[Beau Geste]

To be fair, I thought it was pretty "jerky" to condescend to an anesthesiology attending. And not in the delicious beef way.

I don't care if he's an attending or not. One thread about Rush doesn't mean we have to get incited to run around biting our nails spouting lawsuit crazy speech and unfair practice rights.

I'd like to see how this unfolds before that.

 

[Beau Geste]

To be fair, I thought it was pretty "jerky" to condescend to an anesthesiology attending. And not in the delicious beef way.

And scpod's post, while informative and pertinent, doesn't prove or confirm anything. Although I'm sure he'll be ecstatic that he has your support.

Whatever hat salesman.

 

[Northerner]

I don't care if he's an attending or not. One thread about Rush doesn't mean we have to get incited to run around biting our nails spouting lawsuit crazy speech and unfair practice rights.

I'd like to see how this unfolds before that.

I agree, but that's not what he was saying at all, and not what you disagreed with. He posted the innocent question about whether the conspicuous emergence of policies like this are a symptom of clinical training constraints. It's possible.

Whatever hat salesman.

Since I've leafed through my book of insults and didn't see "hat salesman" under H or S (or in the index), I'll assume you're flirting with me. I'm flattered, honey, but we're too different, it'd never work.

 

[Beau Geste]

I agree, but that's not what he was saying at all, and not what you disagreed with. He posted the innocent question about whether the conspicuous emergence of policies like this are a symptom of clinical training constraints. It's possible.



Since I've leafed through my book of insults and didn't see "hat salesman" under H or S (or in the index), I'll assume you're flirting with me. I'm flattered, honey, but we're too different, it'd never work.

I know - you're too busy trying to score points with DO Anes. Besides, I'm married. Happily.

Hey - your sig says you're a haberdasher. If you're going to use big words, know what they mean 🙄

 

[Northerner]

I know - you're too busy trying to score points with DO Anes. Besides, I'm married. Happily.

Hey - your sig says you're a haberdasher. If you're going to use big words, know what they mean 🙄

Naturally, I'm crushed that a prize such as yourself is married, and am trying to decide whether I'll throw myself off something tall or run out into traffic in order to better bear the news.

Hey - your sig says you're very excited about being an MS-0. If you're going to be a know-it-all mother to us all, at least know what you're talking about.

...and I'm shocked - shocked you didn't get the joke.

 

[Beau Geste]

Why don't we just cool off. No need to get personal.

 

[Northerner]

Why don't we just cool off. No need to get personal.

I couldn't help but notice which one of us "got personal" first, and her name wasn't Northerner.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

I thought that with the dual AOA/AGCME programs, we were allowing some of our PGY 1,2,3,4 to be open to MDs? Even thought it would still be pretty much AOA controlled.

Maybe I am wrong? Can someone correct me please?

I think those dual programs are more like weaker MD programs that wanted to fill so they became dual, there exceptions where state schools exist and some with PCOM.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

Why don't we just cool off. No need to get personal.

Please dont, it was getting pretty steamy in here and I was hoping for some action

 

[Beau Geste]

Of course as an "MS-0", you're in a unique position to comment on the state of clinical training in the U.S.

I believe this was the start of our tete-a-tete.

I think you just like to stir whatever pot you can get in, from pre-DO to clinicians to podiatry to whatever.

 

[Beau Geste]

I think those dual programs are more like weaker MD programs that wanted to fill so they became dual, there exceptions where state schools exist and some with PCOM.

What are some of these programs?

 

[Beau Geste]

Please dont, it was getting pretty steamy in here and I was hoping for some action

Hey, you can take over right meow.

 

[Northerner]

I believe this was the start of our tete-a-tete.

I think you just like to stir whatever pot you can get in, from pre-DO to clinicians to podiatry to whatever.

I'm flattered you're a fan of my work.

If you think me pointing out that you're not in medical school and really not in a position to comment authoritatively on clinical training dynamics in the U.S. is "getting personal", we're going to have a rough night.

 

[Beau Geste]

I'm flattered you're e-stalking my posts.

If you think me pointing out that you're not in medical school and really not in a position to comment authoritatively on clinical training dynamics in the U.S. is "getting personal", we're going to have a rough night.

looking at a post-history is e-stalking?

Darlin', we're not going to have ANY kind of night. Thanks anyway.

 

[Northerner]

looking at a post-history is e-stalking?

Darlin', we're not going to have ANY kind of night. Thanks anyway.

I like it when you call me "darlin", but kind of grossed out that it's you. And that you're attracted to jerks.

 

[orangr85]

megboo and northerner, will you guys just chill out.

lets stick to the topic at hand please.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

Hey, you can take over right meow.

Thats what im talkin about 😉