Daily Show on Comedy Central tonight (2/9/06)

[Janusdog]

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Uhm, yes I think I can speak for all chains. A pharmacist is an independent contractor; they CANNOT be forced to fill whatever the chain force upon them.

Case law has demonstrated that the company is responsible for independent contractors. Such refusals open the company up to lawsuits, and the precedent is there.

 

[28657]

**Something brilliant that hasn't been mentioned**

If the issue arises in a small town with one pharmacist who won't dispense Plan B....aren't we safe to assume that the prescribing physician will start to stock the medication in the clinic. (Ooooh let's see someone refute that!!) These arguments always go back to the religious one pharmacy small town debate...gimme a break and quit blowing smoke up everyone's a$$es.

This issue is NOT about the patient...it is about the rights we have as PROFESSIONALS.

Everyone keeps talking about "forcing moral beliefs...yada yada yada"....well you are forcing YOUR beliefs onto the religious folk. If someone thinks that they are going to be punished by god for providing Plan B, how could you not have sympathy. Now, get this, I am atheist but I can empathize with these religious folk.

P.S. My avatar is Plan B and I dispense it, but I would never force an unapproving technician of mine to be involved in the process.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

First of all, you brought up that there is only one pharmacy in rural areas. The fact that you brought that up seems to indicate that at the very least you would support forcing pharmacists working in rural areas to fill plan B against their will. I think that I made a logical assumption there about your stance on the issue, but I sincerely apologize if I did not.

Please don't try to make logical assumptions about my stance on anything. You don't know me and you haven't done a very good job with your attempts at conjecture so far.

The only reason I brought up rural areas at all was to correct your assumption that people who can't get Plan B at one pharmacy can easily go to another. As other people have helpfully pointed out, that's not true.

The issue of access to reproductive healthcare services for rural women is a problem, period. There are hospitals in many rural areas that lack L&D services. There are entire counties in Kentucky that have no OBGYNs. Rural women have virtually no access to Plan B, for a number of reasons. There is one place in Kentucky where a woman can get a legal abortion (that includes all women - rape victims, incest victims, although I support the right of ANY women to choose when and if she wants to continue a pregnancy) and that clinic is a 6-7 hour drive from some far-flung parts of the state. Forcing all pharmacists to dispense Plan B (which I don't support) wouldn't even make a dent in the problem of reproductive health for rural women. There are many things that need to be addressed, but that larger issue isn't what this thread is about anyway.

In a previous post, you said:

"These are issues of professional judgement and I seriously doubt anyone in the public would want to take away the pharmacists ability to make these types of calls. But when a pharmacist says, "I won't give you Plan B because I believe life begins at fertilization and I think abortion is wrong," that's not a professional judgement call - it's an example of someone in authority imposing their PERSONAL religious/moral beliefs on someone else. I think that's what people are uncomfortable with."

Yes, that is what I said and I stand behind it. I don't think pharmacists should impose their personal religious beliefs on patients. That said, if they are an independent business owner or work for a chain that allows them to refuse, they are free to do that. I don't have to like it.

All I wanted to point out is that if you and others DO think a pharmacist should HAVE to fill a prescription for Plan B, it is you that are forcing your view that "life does not begin at fertilization" on the pharmacist. I am uncomfortable with people who want to tell a person in the private sector what they have to sell to another person.

No, they can still believe whatever they want about when life begins. I just don't think they should use that belief as the basis to deny someone else access to medication. But like I've already told you several times: if they own the pharmacy and/or are allowed to refuse by corporate policy, then they are free to do so.

Let me make an analogy for you. Let's say you really like watching porn movies, and you go to your local video store in rural Kentucky. However, the owner of this video store opposes porn movies based on moral reasons, and does not sell them to the public. Now, you would have to say this video store owner is forcing his moral beliefs on you by not selling you a porn movie to be consistent with your claim that a pharmacist is forcing his views on you if he does not wish to sell you Plan B for moral reasons.

Porn and medication? Yeah, that's a good analogy.

Consistent with my other statements, if that video store owner doesn't want to rent/sell porn in the store that he owns he doesn't have to. But if it is a video store that does carry porn, and the person who just happens to be on duty refuses to let me rent a little Girl on Girl action for my husband for Valentines Day and tries to make me rent The Ten Commandments instead, he's going to hear it from me.

Anyway, we rural Kentuckians just order our porn via the internet anyway.

 

[Future Neuro]

First of all, you brought up that there is only one pharmacy in rural areas. The fact that you brought that up seems to indicate that at the very least you would support forcing pharmacists working in rural areas to fill plan B against their will. I think that I made a logical assumption there about your stance on the issue, but I sincerely apologize if I did not.

Please don't try to make logical assumptions about my stance on anything. You don't know me and you haven't done a very good job with your attempts at conjecture so far.

The only reason I brought up rural areas at all was to correct your assumption that people who can't get Plan B at one pharmacy can easily go to another. As other people have helpfully pointed out, that's not true.

The issue of access to reproductive healthcare services for rural women is a problem, period. There are hospitals in many rural areas that lack L&D services. There are entire counties in Kentucky that have no OBGYNs. Rural women have virtually no access to Plan B, for a number of reasons. There is one place in Kentucky where a woman can get a legal abortion (that includes all women - rape victims, incest victims, although I support the right of ANY women to choose when and if she wants to continue a pregnancy). that clinic is a 6-7 hour drive from some far-flung parts of the state. Forcing all pharmacists to dispense Plan B (which I don't support) wouldn't even make a dent in the problem of reproductive health for rural women. There are many things that need to be addressed, but that larger issue isn't what this thread is about anyway.

In a previous post, you said:

"These are issues of professional judgement and I seriously doubt anyone in the public would want to take away the pharmacists ability to make these types of calls. But when a pharmacist says, "I won't give you Plan B because I believe life begins at fertilization and I think abortion is wrong," that's not a professional judgement call - it's an example of someone in authority imposing their PERSONAL religious/moral beliefs on someone else. I think that's what people are uncomfortable with."

Yes, that is what I said and I stand behind it. I don't think pharmacists should impose their personal religious beliefs on patients. That said, if they are an independent business owner or work for a chain that allows them to refuse, they are free to do that. I don't have to like it.

All I wanted to point out is that if you and others DO think a pharmacist should HAVE to fill a prescription for Plan B, it is you that are forcing your view that "life does not begin at fertilization" on the pharmacist. I am uncomfortable with people who want to tell a person in the private sector what they have to sell to another person.

No, they can still believe whatever they want about when life begins. I just don't think they should use that belief as the basis to deny someone else access to medication. But like I've already told you several times: if they own the pharmacy and/or are allowed to refuse by corporate policy, then they are free to do so.


I hadn't thought about equating porn and medication, but whatever.
Anyway, we rural Kentuckians just order our porn via the internet anyway.

Name a rural town in Kentucky and I bet that I can find several retail chain pharmacies within a 45 minute drive of the town on Google maps. As I have said several times, a pharmacist can't force his moral views on the customer if there other pharmacies, and there are other pharmacies within a reasonable distance of most people, even if you want to pretend this isn't the case. Instead of complaining about this in an obscure forum on the internet, why don't you lobby the goverment to force pharmacists to dispense plan B against their will...if you really think this is unprofessional on the part of the pharmacist then you should support legislation to force the independent pharmacists to dispense plan B. Put your money where your mouth is, so to speak. 🙂

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Uhm, yes I think I can speak for all chains. A pharmacist is an independent contractor; they CANNOT be forced to fill whatever the chain force upon them. You are highly mistaken if you think the pharmacist is the same as a store clerk. A pharmacist has a license while a store clerk does not. The LICENSE is what makes the pharmacist an independent contractor regardless if they are employed or not under krogers.

While I am impressed that you speak for all of the 100's (1000's?) of pharmacy chains in the United States, you are speaking incorrectly.

Maybe you are just mixed up about terminology, because a pharmacist in a chain store is most definitely not an independent contractor. Go look it up on the IRS website if you don't believe me.

Just because an employee works under a contract doesn't mean they are an independent contractor. At Kroger all of the clerks, stockers, checkers, meat cutters, and so on work under a contract because it is a union shop and Kentucky is a closed-shop state. That doesn't make the checkers and baggers independent contractors.

As far as the license issue goes, as others have stated, simply having one does not make one an independent contractor. I have a license in a field unrelated to pharmacy and I have used it as both an employee AND as an independent contractor. Two very different situations.

The pharmacist's license is one of the terms of employment. Meaning you must have a license to be employeed as a pharmacist. Similarly, teachers must be licensed, but they are employees of the school system and the school system can and most certainly does tell them what to teach, how to teach it and when to teach it. Now more so than ever, what with educational reform, accountability, NCLB, and standardized testing.

So yes, the chain CAN tell the pharmacist to fill Plan B if that is corporate policy, much like Kroger can tell the pharmacist what to wear (no jeans - must always wear white coat when visible to patients -men must wear collared shirts - no facial piercings or unnatural hair colors) and how to behave (no cell phones in the store - no eating or chewing gum in front of customers). If you have worked in retail pharmacy, you must know that management/corporate enforces its will upon the pharmacy pretty regularly. The only thing that is still (mostly) sacred is the pharmacist's ability to make medical judgements.

 

[ultracet]

Name a rural town in Kentucky and I bet that I can find several retail chain pharmacies within a 45 minute drive of the town on Google maps. As I have said several times, a pharmacist can't force his moral views on the customer if there other pharmacies, and there are other pharmacies within a reasonable distance of most people, even if you want to pretend this isn't the case. Instead of complaining about this in an obscure forum on the internet, why don't you lobby the goverment to force pharmacists to dispense plan B against their will...if you really think this is unprofessional on the part of the pharmacist then you should support legislation to force the independent pharmacists to dispense plan B. Put your money where your mouth is, so to speak. 🙂

one thing you may not know about kentucky is that 15 miles can be 45 minutes in eastern ky....

you've got to take into account roads and mountains

google maps doesn't account for that

 

[Future Neuro]

First of all, you brought up that there is only one pharmacy in rural areas. The fact that you brought that up seems to indicate that at the very least you would support forcing pharmacists working in rural areas to fill plan B against their will. I think that I made a logical assumption there about your stance on the issue, but I sincerely apologize if I did not.

Please don't try to make logical assumptions about my stance on anything. You don't know me and you haven't done a very good job with your attempts at conjecture so far.

The only reason I brought up rural areas at all was to correct your assumption that people who can't get Plan B at one pharmacy can easily go to another. As other people have helpfully pointed out, that's not true.

The issue of access to reproductive healthcare services for rural women is a problem, period. There are hospitals in many rural areas that lack L&D services. There are entire counties in Kentucky that have no OBGYNs. Rural women have virtually no access to Plan B, for a number of reasons. There is one place in Kentucky where a woman can get a legal abortion (that includes all women - rape victims, incest victims, although I support the right of ANY women to choose when and if she wants to continue a pregnancy). that clinic is a 6-7 hour drive from some far-flung parts of the state. Forcing all pharmacists to dispense Plan B (which I don't support) wouldn't even make a dent in the problem of reproductive health for rural women. There are many things that need to be addressed, but that larger issue isn't what this thread is about anyway.

In a previous post, you said:

"These are issues of professional judgement and I seriously doubt anyone in the public would want to take away the pharmacists ability to make these types of calls. But when a pharmacist says, "I won't give you Plan B because I believe life begins at fertilization and I think abortion is wrong," that's not a professional judgement call - it's an example of someone in authority imposing their PERSONAL religious/moral beliefs on someone else. I think that's what people are uncomfortable with."

Yes, that is what I said and I stand behind it. I don't think pharmacists should impose their personal religious beliefs on patients. That said, if they are an independent business owner or work for a chain that allows them to refuse, they are free to do that. I don't have to like it.



one thing you may not know about kentucky is that 15 miles can be 45 minutes in eastern ky....

you've got to take into account roads and mountains

Give me a rural town in eastern kentucky, and I will locate several pharmacies nearby on Google. I will even call and ask their pharmacists if they dispense plan B. 🙂 The suggestion that there is NO pharmacy within 50 mile radius of a town in Kentucky or Alabama or Florida that will fill plan B just sounds like baseless speculation to me.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Name a rural town in Kentucky and I bet that I can find several retail chain pharmacies within a 45 minute drive of the town on Google maps. As I have said several times, a pharmacist can't force his moral views on the customer if there other pharmacies, and there are other pharmacies within a reasonable distance of most people, even if you want to pretend this isn't the case. Instead of complaining about this in an obscure forum on the internet, why don't you lobby the goverment to force pharmacists to dispense plan B against their will...if you really think this is unprofessional on the part of the pharmacist then you should support legislation to force the independent pharmacists to dispense plan B. Put your money where your mouth is, so to speak. 🙂

You would lose that bet. I could name towns in rural Kentucky that you couldn't FIND on google maps. Have you ever been to Kentucky? I live in the city now, but I have lived and worked in a number of rural areas and I assure you that I am not "pretending" when I speak about the problem of access to reproductive healthcare in those areas.

Regarding your "complaining" on this "obscure forum" comment - what are you doing? Isn't that the purpose of SDN? To discuss these issues with other people either in or training for our chosen profession? Why are you here if you feel it's a waste?

You are just trying to change the subject because you can't refute what I've said or find the inconsistencies you are looking for. You're cute - it's fine for you to pontificate about your religous beliefs and your right to believe that life begins at fertilization, but since I don't agree with you and you can't convince me of the error of my ways, the best you can come up with is, "Nanna, nanna boo boo! All4MyDaughter should be out lobbying the government instead of wasting time on SDN!"

Give me a break.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

one thing you may not know about kentucky is that 15 miles can be 45 minutes in eastern ky....

you've got to take into account roads and mountains

google maps doesn't account for that

bbmuffin?

So true! I have terrible motion sickness and those mountain roads in Eastern Kentucky suck! Long and winding, takes forever to get anywhere.

 

[Future Neuro]

You would lose that bet. I could name towns in rural Kentucky that you couldn't FIND on google maps. Have you ever been to Kentucky? I live in the city now, but I have lived and worked in a number of rural areas and I assure you that I am not "pretending" when I speak about the problem of access to reproductive healthcare in those areas.

Regarding your "complaining" on this "obscure forum" comment - what are you doing? Isn't that the purpose of SDN? To discuss these issues with other people either in or training for our chosen profession? Why are you here if you feel it's a waste?

You are just trying to change the subject because you can't refute what I've said or find the inconsistencies you are looking for. You're cute - it's fine for you to pontificate about your religous beliefs and your right to believe that life begins at fertilization, but since I don't agree with you and you can't convince me of the error of my ways, the best you can come up with is, "Nanna, nanna boo boo! All4MyDaughter should be out lobbying the government instead of wasting time on SDN!"

Give me a break.

Name one rural town in Kentucky and I can prove you wrong in a matter of minutes 🙂.

I don't remember pontificating on my religious beliefs....I havent' shared my beliefs on religion in here. I wouldn't waste my time trying to convince a feminist that abortion is wrong. 🙂

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Name one rural town in Kentucky and I can prove you wrong in a matter of minutes 🙂.

I don't remember pontificating on my religious beliefs....I havent' shared my beliefs on religion in here. I wouldn't waste my time trying to convince a feminist that abortion is wrong. 🙂

OK, fine - your "moral" beliefs. I think you've made them pretty clear.

Ooooh, insult me - call me a feminist. I think that here, in the year 2006, we've moved beyond labels like that. If you like to categorize people, you might be interested to know that this issue (reproductive rights) is only one of my interests. Some of the others are gay and lesbian rights, advocating for people with mental illness and mental disorders and spaying/neutering pets. What you do think you know about me now?

And you are wrong about the "chain pharmacy that sells Plan B within 50 miles of every person in Kentucky," thing - but even if you were correct, you'd be assuming that every woman in Kentucky has access to a car or someone to drive her an hour or more to a chain pharmacy. Also incorrect assumptions.

The problem is even worse in less densely populated states like the Dakotas, Wyoming, etc.

 

[Future Neuro]

Here are some of the pharmacies that I managed to find in Eastern Kentucky. Surely some of them dispense plan B:

CVS, Pharmacy
29019 Us Highway 119, South Williamson, KY
(606) 237-7220

RX Discount Pharmacy
500 Morton Blvd, Hazard, KY
(606) 436-2891

John's Pharmacy
747 Morton Blvd, Hazard, KY
(606) 487-0225

Kyva Pharmacy
109 E Main St, Whitesburg, KY
(606) 633-4488

Huff Drug Store
279 E Main St, Hazard, KY
(606) 436-2138

Superior Discount Pharmacy
251 Medical Plaza Ln # C, Whitesburg, KY
(606) 633-0197

Whitesburg Pharmacy
246 Medical Plaza LN, Whitesburg, KY
(606) 633-1335

Isom Community Pharmacy
105 Isom plz, Jeremiah, KY
(606) 633-9238

DSSK II Pharmacy
145 Citizens Ln # A, Hazard, KY
(606) 436-4005

Home Town Pharmacy
130 Highway 80, Hyden, KY
(606) 672-3084

Cumberland Drug Co
1803 E Main St, Cumberland, KY
(606) 589-0003

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Here are some of the pharmacies that I managed to find in Eastern Kentucky. Surely some of them dispense plan B:

I have that list too. Of the ones you listed, I think the most likely candidate for stocking Plan B is CVS since it is the only chain pharmacy on the list.

There are tons of small independent pharmacies in Kentucky. I'd venture that most of them do not have Plan B.

If you want to call them all and ask... it's your quarter.

 

[Future Neuro]

OK, fine - your "moral" beliefs. I think you've made them pretty clear.

Ooooh, insult me - call me a feminist. I think that here, in the year 2006, we've moved beyond labels like that. If you like to categorize people, you might be interested to know that this issue (reproductive rights) is only one of my interests. Some of the others are gay and lesbian rights, advocating for people with mental illness and mental disorders and spaying/neutering pets. What you do think you know about me now?

And you are wrong about the "chain pharmacy that sells Plan B within 50 miles of every person in Kentucky," thing - but even if you were correct, you'd be assuming that every woman in Kentucky has access to a car or someone to drive her an hour or more to a chain pharmacy. Also incorrect assumptions.

You have been extremely hostile to me for no reason, so for you to now be accusing me of being mean is amusing. I didn't call you a feminist as an insult. You are one, and you are not going to change your mind on abortion. This was just a innocent observation. I have let your insults slide because I'm that type of guy.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

You have been extremely hostile to me for no reason, so for you to now be accusing me of being mean is amusing. I didn't call you a feminist as an insult. You are one, and you are not going to change your mind on abortion. This was just a innocent observation. I have let your insults slide because I'm that type of guy.

I'm not sure how you can detect hostility or any other type of emotional intent on a message board. You can't see facial expression, hear vocal tone, etc.

I'm not hostile to you. In fact I'm more amused by you than anything.

Disagreement (even adament disagreement) does not equal discourtesy or hostility. If you think I've been rude to you, feel free to let me know - but I think that you should take it to PM.

PS - I'm not a feminist. I'm something else.

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

While I am impressed that you speak for all of the 100's (1000's?) of pharmacy chains in the United States, you are speaking incorrectly.

Maybe you are just mixed up about terminology, because a pharmacist in a chain store is most definitely not an independent contractor. Go look it up on the IRS website if you don't believe me.

Just because an employee works under a contract doesn't mean they are an independent contractor. At Kroger all of the clerks, stockers, checkers, meat cutters, and so on work under a contract because it is a union shop and Kentucky is a closed-shop state. That doesn't make the checkers and baggers independent contractors.

As far as the license issue goes, as others have stated, simply having one does not make one an independent contractor. I have a license in a field unrelated to pharmacy and I have used it as both an employee AND as an independent contractor. Two very different situations.

The pharmacist's license is one of the terms of employment. Meaning you must have a license to be employeed as a pharmacist. Similarly, teachers must be licensed, but they are employees of the school system and the school system can and most certainly does tell them what to teach, how to teach it and when to teach it. Now more so than ever, what with educational reform, accountability, NCLB, and standardized testing.

So yes, the chain CAN tell the pharmacist to fill Plan B if that is corporate policy, much like Kroger can tell the pharmacist what to wear (no jeans - must always wear white coat when visible to patients -men must wear collared shirts - no facial piercings or unnatural hair colors) and how to behave (no cell phones in the store - no eating or chewing gum in front of customers). If you have worked in retail pharmacy, you must know that management/corporate enforces its will upon the pharmacy pretty regularly. The only thing that is still (mostly) sacred is the pharmacist's ability to make medical judgements.

Okay. . . before we begin, does this also apply to independent pharmacies? If it doesnt, does this mean that its okay for the independent pharmacist to refuse to fill Plan B?

Anyway, lets talk about license and what your employers can tell you what you can and cannot do. First, you are the one who is license to PRACTICE pharmacy. It is not the store manager who is licensed to practice pharmacy. That means they have NO right to tell you what you can or cannot fill. This is the key point. What your employers can tell you to do is sweep the floor, wear a tie, clean the toilet and the whole lot.

Second, filling Plan B is a medical judgement. You are killing a fetus. That alone proves your ORIGINAL point invalid.


I am sorry if you think i was speaking for chains. I am merely basing it on what most state's board of education say about the practice of pharmacy. Sure if Illinose pass a law, then the pharmacist is obligated to do so. However laws are meant to be tested. I also think u misunderstood me concerning independent contractor and employee. I am not speaking in the sense of the company contracting someone to fix their floors. I am talking in the sense of practice.

Be free to PM me so we dont go around back and forth. Just wanna say sorry if you think i was disrespectful in anyway.

 

[28657]

HEY!

Quit your bitching people! This rural argument is CRAP. Again, the doc can and will hand out Plan B if it becomes an issue with the local town pharmacist.

 

[Future Neuro]

I'm not sure how you can detect hostility or any other type of emotional intent on a message board. You can't see facial expression, hear vocal tone, etc.

I'm not hostile to you. In fact I'm more amused by you than anything.

Disagreement (even adament disagreement) does not equal discourtesy or hostility. If you think I've been rude to you, feel free to let me know - but I think that you should take it to PM.

PS - I'm not a feminist. I'm something else.

I don't think you like to be challenged on your viewpoints. And you have been rude to me, and you know it, and I've already let you know it in my previous posts. You don't have a clue if these pharmacies in eastern kentucky dispense plan B or not...you are just relying on stereotypes that you have to speculate that they do not.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Okay. . . before we begin, does this also apply to independent pharmacies? If it doesnt, does this mean that its okay for the independent pharmacist to refuse to fill Plan B?

Yes, I think that the owner of an independent pharmacy can decide whether or not he wants to stock/dispense it. If he doesn't want to - that's his business he can do what he wants.

Similarly, a chain pharmacy can say, "At this pharmacy we stock and sell Plan B. All pharmacists who work here will dispense Plan B to patients who have a valid prescription and no medical contraindications."

Anyway, lets talk about license and what your employers can tell you what you can and cannot do. First, you are the one who is license to PRACTICE pharmacy. It is not the store manager who is licensed to practice pharmacy. That means they have NO right to tell you what you can or cannot fill. This is the key point. What your employers can tell you to do is sweep the floor, wear a tie, clean the toilet and the whole lot.

The key to our disagreement here revolves around whether or not you think refusing Plan B is a medical or moral issue. The pharmacists who have gotten media attention for refusing have made it clear that it's a MORAL issue for them. I believe that Kroger, CVS or (insert chain here) CAN tell it's pharmacists that they are not allowed to refuse service to customers based on their (the pharmacists') personal religious or moral beliefs.

Second, filling Plan B is a medical judgement. You are killing a fetus. That alone proves your ORIGINAL point invalid.

Plan B does not kill a fetus. The unborn child is not even considered a fetus until 10 weeks gestation.

My understanding of Plan B is that it prevents the implantation of a fertilized ovum or zygote. The medical definition of pregnancy places the start of pregnancy at implantation. Many religious people feel differently, and I can respect that. What seems to be undisputed is that once the zygote has implanted, Plan B isn't going to do anything to "unimplant" it. There are other drugs that will remove it, but not Plan B.

The other thing to consider is that the woman, and not the alleged zygote (who may or may not exist - no way to know if the sperm got into the egg) is your patient. There are no legally established rights for a zygote or an embryo outside of the woman in whose body it resides.

So there is no "medical judgement" about killing a fetus to be made. The woman is your patient, so the only medical question to ask is if she has any contraindications to the hormones. I'm not even sure what kind of contraindications are possible. Someone farther along in their training could shed some light on that one.

If pharmacists don't want to dispense Plan B, they are making a MORAL judgement. Period.

Also, I didn't think you were being rude. You can PM me if you want to.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

HEY!

Quit your bitching people! This rural argument is CRAP. Again, the doc can and will hand out Plan B if it becomes an issue with the local town pharmacist.

I hope you are right about doctors giving out free Plan B to patients who need it.

Access to all types of healthcare is a problem in rural areas, but reproductive healthcare is especially troublesome. No CRAP - just the truth.

Also, you don't have to read the thread if you don't like it. No disrespect meant - if you don't want to read the "bitching" - don't click on the thread.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I don't think you like to be challenged on your viewpoints. And you have been rude to me, and you know it, and I've already let you know it in my previous posts. You don't have a clue if these pharmacies in eastern kentucky dispense plan B or not...you are just relying on stereotypes that you have to speculate that they do not.

I'm old enough that I've been challenged on my viewpoints many times. I enjoy a good, well-reasoned discussion as much as anyone else.

I also don't think I've been rude. Blunt perhaps? Honest? I dunno what specifically you've taken offense to.
Like I said, if you want to talk about how I've wronged you, take it to PM.

And nope, I don't know how many of those eastern Kentucky pharmacies have Plan B. I'm merely speculating based upon my 30+ years of living in Kentucky - and I'd venture to say not many of them carry it. Heck, I live in the largest, arguably the most progressive city in Kentucky (over 1,000,000 people in the metro area) and you have to call around to find Plan B. Sometimes stereotypes have their basis in reality.

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

Once again, a chain pharmacy cannot say what its pharmacist will or will not fill. Its simple as that, the chain does not have a license to practice pharmacy, the pharmacist does. That is the basis for the lawsuit against wags by the 4 pharmacist. They have a pretty strong legal point too.

Once again, its not about what your or mine opinion is. The law is what people go by. You may believe that (insert chain here) CAN tell its pharmacist that they are not allowed to refuse service to customers, but thats not what the law says. The Chains do not have any right in saying how a pharmacist can practice unless they want to face bad PR and a legal lawsuit. This is the foundation of professions. The law is the law, and the law says only a pharmacist can practice pharmacy. Once again, its not about what you or I believe. The law is how a pharmacy is run by and anything else is their own business.

I am a christian but have lost my faith. (havent gone to church, gamble, lust, and other sins). Hell I dispense plan b once in a while too, but its not about the belief to me. Its about the right to practice.

To a Catholic, the pope decreed that once the sperm and the egg meets, its a child. Everyone has different definitions of a fetus even though our biology textbook may says otherwise. However who writes the biology textbooks or define the term pregnancy? There is no exact basis for this. This is all a matter of opinion. Just because a group of medical doctor say that it pregnancy occurs at x, this doesnt have to be your meaning. Hence to a catholic, we now have to think about the child.

If the pharmacist doesnt want to dispense Plan B, yes they are making a moral judgement. However they are also making a medical judgement. Medicine is an art and is ambigious. Just because you say its not a child, doesnt mean that I believe so.

IN THE END, THE RIGHT TO DISPENSE OR NOT DISPENSE STILL FALLS UPON THE PHARMACIST AND NOW THE CHAIN. If so, why not just give the chain the license and not the pharmacist??????

 

[Future Neuro]

I'm old enough that I've been challenged on my viewpoints many times. I enjoy a good, well-reasoned discussion as much as anyone else.

I also don't think I've been rude. Blunt perhaps? Honest? I dunno what specifically you've taken offense to.

Like I said, if you want to talk about how I've wronged you, take it to PM.

And nope, I don't know how many of those eastern Kentucky pharmacies have Plan B. I'm merely speculating based upon my 30+ years of living in Kentucky - and I'd venture to say not many of them carry it. Heck, I live in the largest, arguably the most progressive city in Kentucky (over 1,000,000 people in the metro area) and you have to call around to find Plan B. Sometimes stereotypes have their basis in reality.

Sometimes people lie in a pathetic attempt to prove something. You admit you are speculating when you say, "I'd venture to say not many of them carry it". Just because you live in the state of Kentucky does not mean you know what every single pharmacy in the state does in regard to Plan B, or even in the large progressive city in which you now live.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Sometimes people lie in a pathetic attempt to prove something. You admit you are speculating when you say, "I'd venture to say not many of them carry it". Just because you live in the state of Kentucky does not mean you know what every single pharmacy in the state does in regard to Plan B, or even in the large progressive city in which you now live.

What I've said is no different from the posters from Alabama and Florida stating that most pharmacies in their state (especially rural) don't have Plan B. Are we all lying? What would we be trying to prove with our lies?

I already TOLD you I'm speculating about pharmacies across the whole state. I know for a FACT that Plan B is not easy to find, even in Louisville. We don't always have it at the pharmacy where I work (not for moral reasons, though).

Don't complain about my (real or imagined) insults of you and then turn around and accuse me of lying or being pathetic. 👎
I also don't think you meant to compliment me by calling me a feminist. Just a hunch.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Once again, a chain pharmacy cannot say what its pharmacist will or will not fill. Its simple as that, the chain does not have a license to practice pharmacy, the pharmacist does. That is the basis for the lawsuit against wags by the 4 pharmacist. They have a pretty strong legal point too.

I am a christian but have lost my faith. (havent gone to church, gamble, lust, and other sins). Hell I dispense plan b once in a while too, but its not about the belief to me. Its about the right to practice.

Azn,

I am also a Christian who has lost my faith. I have no problem with Plan B, would (probably) not personally get an abortion, but have accompanied friends to get one. I'm a hardcore reproductive rights advocate. My beliefs do not conflict with the Christian denomination of which I am a (lapsed) member.

I'm not sure that this exact situation is addressed in current law. Not addressed uniformly across all 50 states, to be certain. At any rate, I will be interested to see how the Wags lawsuit plays out.

 

[Future Neuro]

What I've said is no different from the posters from Alabama and Florida stating that most pharmacies in their state (especially rural) don't have Plan B. Are we all lying? What would we be trying to prove with our lies?

I already TOLD you I'm speculating about pharmacies across the whole state. I know for a FACT that Plan B is not easy to find, even in Louisville. We don't always have it at the pharmacy where I work (not for moral reasons, though).

Don't complain about my (real or imagined) insults of you and then turn around and accuse me of lying or being pathetic. 👎
I also don't think you meant to compliment me by calling me a feminist. Just a hunch.

Why are you complaining about pharmacists who refuse to fill plan B if the majority of pharmacies don't always have it in stock? Seems like you are searching for an issue to get angry about. Those girls were just speculating about what goes on in their states. Everybody in rural Alabama lives close enough to one of the metro areas of Birmingham, Montgomery, Mobile, Huntsville, Decatur, FLorence, Tuscualso (spelling?), Auburn, Dothan, Anniston where there are plenty of CVS or other chain stores that have Plan B. The same goes for Florida, which hardly has any rural areas outside of the panhandle. It's been fun. 🙂

 

[ultracet]

Why are you complaining about pharmacists who refuse to fill plan B if the majority of pharmacies don't always have it in stock? Seems like you are searching for an issue to get angry about. Those girls were just speculating about what goes on in their states. Everybody in rural Alabama lives close enough to one of the metro areas of Birmingham, Montgomery, Mobile, Huntsville, Decatur, FLorence, Tuscualso (spelling?), Auburn, Dothan, Anniston where there are plenty of CVS or other chain stores that have Plan B. The same goes for Florida, which hardly has any rural areas outside of the panhandle. It's been fun. 🙂

there is actually only 1 pharmacy in birmingham with it instock!

and its tuscaloosa
😉

so no not really speculation

we do have knowledge as to what actually goes on... as well as the views of the rphs in the state (there have been surveys in al about the issue so there is data to back it up)

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Why are you complaining about pharmacists who refuse to fill plan B if the majority of pharmacies don't always have it in stock? Seems like you are searching for an issue to get angry about. Those girls were just speculating about what goes on in their states. Everybody in rural Alabama lives close enough to one of the metro areas of Birmingham, Montgomery, Mobile, Huntsville, Decatur, FLorence, Tuscualso (spelling?), Auburn, Dothan, Anniston where there are plenty of CVS or other chain stores that have Plan B. The same goes for Florida, which hardly has any rural areas outside of the panhandle. It's been fun. 🙂

Stop trying to ascribe emotions or motivations to me.

You don't know what you are talking about as far as Alabama, Florida, or Kentucky. I don't think you have any ill-intent, you are just uninformed.

Some of the pharmacies that don't stock it have moral reasons, some of them have financial reasons. The problem of lack of access to Plan B is compounded when the pharmacists in pharmacies that do stock it refuse to dispense it. It's an issue that isn't going away.

I do agree that you and I should stop discussing this issue because it's turning this thread (which is an important discussion) into a "Future Neuro v. All4MyDaughter" thing, instead of focusing on the issues.

Plus you seem to be getting your feelings hurt.

 

[drugmanrx]

You know, its pretty easy in most states (Illnois is an exception) for the head pharmacist of a pharmacy to decide not to regularly stock plan B. It isn't against corporate policy (at least where I work) to not stock it even if it means you are required to dispense it or provide a means to somehow provide it. So when Sally comes in with a script for Plan B, she will probably have to wait a day or more to get it. Thus, depending on how long ago the condom broke or whatever, pharmacies that do not Stock plan B can tell the patient they do not have it in stock. Most poeple probably wouldn't want to wait to get it so they would go somewhere else that has it. This is what the PIC does where I work, so she wouldn't even have to bring religion into the equation. I say "wouldn't" because I have never seen or heard of some one bringing a script for plan B into my pharmacy (granted I do live in a rural area). Maybe this accounts for the fact my county has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the state? I don't know, just a thought.

So when people test the limits of the law, saying that Plan B is a regularly dispensed item and should be kept in stock (like in MA). I would beg to differ on the "regular dispensed" part. I would be willing to bet most places that keep it in stock see a profit-loss as it collects dust. Now this is just my opinion from my personal experiences.

Now about saying that pharmacists should seek a new career because their morals disagree with EC, shame on you. When were the EC drugs approved? (Preven approved in 1998 and Plan B approved in 1999). I imagine that there are a lot of pharmacists that have been around longer than that. As a pharmacy student, I still have a choice of my profession. How would you feel if you told you had to change your jobs or dispense against your morals after working in a profession for 30 years?
In closing, I respect people's beliefs, and their choices. But making laws to force filling prescriptions against professional and/or moral judgement is just as wrong as a person who needs medication but doesn't get it. (and both are happening today)

 

[Future Neuro]

there is actually only 1 pharmacy in birmingham with it instock!

and its tuscaloosa
😉

so no not really speculation

we do have knowledge as to what actually goes on... as well as the views of the rphs in the state (there have been surveys in al about the issue so there is data to back it up)

So are all the other pharmacies in B'ham not carrying plan B because the pharmacists are "Jesus freaks" (as Ted Turner and other liberals refer to Christians) who want to force their moral beliefs on women? Or is there some other reason?

 

[Abilify]

So are all the other pharmacies in B'ham not carrying plan B because the pharmacists are "Jesus freaks" (as Ted Turner and other liberals refer to Christians) who want to force their moral beliefs on women? Or is there some other reason?

you're a *******...

you're doing what you advocate against

you're wanting to force your beliefs on other professionals

 

[Future Neuro]

Stop trying to ascribe emotions or motivations to me.

You don't know what you are talking about as far as Alabama, Florida, or Kentucky. I don't think you have any ill-intent, you are just uninformed.

Some of the pharmacies that don't stock it have moral reasons, some of them have financial reasons. The problem of lack of access to Plan B is compounded when the pharmacists in pharmacies that do stock it refuse to dispense it. It's an issue that isn't going away.

I do agree that you and I should stop discussing this issue because it's turning this thread (which is an important discussion) into a "Future Neuro v. All4MyDaughter" thing, instead of focusing on the issues.

Plus you seem to be getting your feelings hurt.

I dunno.....you took it pretty bad when i accurately called you a feminist. That was an insult, according to you. That seems to indicate you are a little sensitive. You were being hostile in your posts, but it's no big deal. I'm use to liberals calling me a sexist, bigot, homophobe, oppressor of the poor, insensitive, chicken hawk, bible thumper, war monger and various other ad hominen attacks just because I'm a conservative who is against abortion, pro-tax cuts, and supports the war in IRaq among other things. Don't get me wrong, you didn't go that far, but I did sense some hostility in your posts. If you weren't being a bi-otch, I do sincerely apologize for misreading your tone. I would even take you to see Brokeback Mountain to make up for my mistake. 🙂

 

[Future Neuro]

you're a *******...

you're doing what you advocate against

you're wanting to force your beliefs on other professionals

How so? Enlighten me, old wise chinese man. 🙂

 

[bananaface]

Please be reminded that this is a professional forum and that it exists for the purpose of collegial discussion, not for antagonizing other users at the expense of the discussion.

Thanks 🙂

 

[dgroulx]

The same goes for Florida, which hardly has any rural areas outside of the panhandle. It's been fun. 🙂

Now you're an expert on Florida. I've lived in Florida since 1964. Most rural areas in Florida are any towns that are not on the coast or have an interstate highway running through it.

Chain pharmacies do not bother with low population densities. It's not worth the expense. It's mainly mom & pop pharmacies or people drive into town.

You'd actually like it in those towns. Everyone is white, Christian, republican, pro-life, anti-gay, anti-black, anti-women being intelligent or strong, feel free to add to the list.

 

[BiOGoly]

Ok. This thread has digressed a little too far into ad hominem territory. I'm sure that everyone on this forum agrees that if you own your own pharmacy you can carry (or not carry) whatever you want, and if you don't want to dispense something, you're probably not going to have it in stock anyway, so moot point.

The argument here is concerning chain pharmacies that have the med's in stock, but no pharmacist on shift that is willing to dispense them. Valid script, med's in stock sitting right there on the shelf behind the register, but the pharmacist refuses to dispense.

Now who's problem is it exactly? The customer's? According to many comments that's what some of you believe. The customer CAN simply try another pharmacy, and if that doesn't work, another pharmacy...ad naseum. But I think that we can all agree that the interests of this customer are not being served and they would be rightfully PIS*ED enough to launch a voter initiative ballot measure a' la Illinois to curb our rights as pharmacists. (square one)

Is it the chain's problem? They could try to ensure that at least one person was always on shift who would be able to dispense if someone else couldn't. Of course this would be maddeningly difficult and impossible to enforce. Plus you'd run into the same type of discriminatory problems.

Is it the pharmacist's problem? Everyone here is a future (or practicing) pharmacist and I'm sure respects the right of a pharmacist to not dispense if he/she has some religious or moral disinclination to do so. I personally don't understand these people (like I don't understand biology majors who discount evolution 🙄 ) but I accept them and their right to make that decision. However, and here's the clincher...IT'S THEIR DECISION! Since it is the pharmacist's decision the onus is on them to ensure that if they can't dispense because it would violate their moral code, then they are working with someone else that isn't so encumbered and can fill the script. It's as simple as that folks.

This issue is NOT about the patient...it is about the rights we have as PROFESSIONALS.

Congratulations! You win a cookie! You're absolutely right.

These non-dispensing issues are really pratically non-issues. If you live in Aladamnbama or Miseryssippi and you need something like planB your probably going to automatically assume you'll have to find a Planned Parenthood or get it from your doctor anyway. Only a small minority of people are going to run into the situation profiled in The Daily Show segment. But that doesn't matter, it's all about public perception of the profession. This is an incredible hot button issue with a whole lot of people. It seems like whenever someone asks me what I'm studying for and I say pharmacy, they ask me what I think about "these pharmacists who refuse to dispense". Dozens of states are now considering measures similar to the one in Illinois...all thanks to a few inconsiderate pharmacists who didn't do their due diligence. So yes, it IS about our rights as professionals. And shmucks like the guy on the Daily Show, who's attitude was basically "I don't agree with it, I'm not filling it, don't like it? Go some place else or eat my shorts", are the one's endangering them.

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

I completely disagree. What you are saying is that because we are practicing our rights, we are in danger of losing it??? Hence it is pharmacists like the guy in the clip's fault? If that is the case, we can apply the slippery slope arguement and say that pharmacist has NO MEDICAL judgement whatsoever or decision in the dispensing process and MUST fill all prescriptions.
Concerning law, laws are meant to be tested. Just because a law was passed, it does not mean that it is constitutional. Sure Illinoise got it through but it'll be damn hard for the other states to. If it does, its going to be a sad day for the profession and one that I am hoping pharmacists will stand up to.

The profession has been belittled by pbms, chains, doctor's and nurse's lobbies. If these laws passed and stay, I really dont see how pharmacy can be called a profession at all.

Ok. This thread has digressed a little too far into ad hominem territory. I'm sure that everyone on this forum agrees that if you own your own pharmacy you can carry (or not carry) whatever you want, and if you don't want to dispense something, you're probably not going to have it in stock anyway, so moot point.

The argument here is concerning chain pharmacies that have the med's in stock, but no pharmacist on shift that is willing to dispense them. Valid script, med's in stock sitting right there on the shelf behind the register, but the pharmacist refuses to dispense.

Now who's problem is it exactly? The customer's? According to many comments that's what some of you believe. The customer CAN simply try another pharmacy, and if that doesn't work, another pharmacy...ad naseum. But I think that we can all agree that the interests of this customer are not being served and they would be rightfully PIS*ED enough to launch a voter initiative ballot measure a' la Illinois to curb our rights as pharmacists. (square one)

Is it the chain's problem? They could try to ensure that at least one person was always on shift who would be able to dispense if someone else couldn't. Of course this would be maddeningly difficult and impossible to enforce. Plus you'd run into the same type of discriminatory problems.

Is it the pharmacist's problem? Everyone here is a future (or practicing) pharmacist and I'm sure respects the right of a pharmacist to not dispense if he/she has some religious or moral disinclination to do so. I personally don't understand these people (like I don't understand biology majors who discount evolution 🙄 ) but I accept them and their right to make that decision. However, and here's the clincher...IT'S THEIR DECISION! Since it is the pharmacist's decision the onus is on them to ensure that if they can't dispense because it would violate their moral code, then they are working with someone else that isn't so encumbered and can fill the script. It's as simple as that folks.

Congratulations! You win a cookie! You're absolutely right.

These non-dispensing issues are really pratically non-issues. If you live in Aladamnbama or Miseryssippi and you need something like planB your probably going to automatically assume you'll have to find a Planned Parenthood or get it from your doctor anyway. Only a small minority of people are going to run into the situation profiled in The Daily Show segment. But that doesn't matter, it's all about public perception of the profession. This is an incredible hot button issue with a whole lot of people. It seems like whenever someone asks me what I'm studying for and I say pharmacy, they ask me what I think about "these pharmacists who refuse to dispense". Dozens of states are now considering measures similar to the one in Illinois...all thanks to a few inconsiderate pharmacists who didn't do their due diligence. So yes, it IS about our rights as professionals. And shmucks like the guy on the Daily Show, who's attitude was basically "I don't agree with it, I'm not filling it, don't like it? Go some place else or eat my shorts", are the one's endangering them.

 

[Future Neuro]

Now you're an expert on Florida. I've lived in Florida since 1964. Most rural areas in Florida are any towns that are not on the coast or have an interstate highway running through it.

Chain pharmacies do not bother with low population densities. It's not worth the expense. It's mainly mom & pop pharmacies or people drive into town.

You'd actually like it in those towns. Everyone is white, Christian, republican, pro-life, anti-gay, anti-black, anti-women being intelligent or strong, feel free to add to the list.

Thanks for the ad hominem attacks. You just proved my earlier point about liberals slandering conservatives. It's predictable. I have not said anything that was anti-gay, anti-black, anti-women being intelligent or strong. Two of my favorite conservative columnists are black, Dr. Thomas Sowell and Dr. Walter Williams. I'm also a fan of Ann Coulter, who is an intelligent strong opinionated woman. You are just projecting your negative stereotypes of conservatives onto me. The moderator will give you a free pass, i'm sure. Take care.

 

[Moxxie]

Wow. This thread has gotten large. I really appreciate the discussion, though. (I've refrained from making any comments because others are much more eloquent than I, but I'm in the same camp as All4MyDaughter).

That being said, one thing that hasn't been touched on much is what was actually portrayed in the clip - the pharmacist that refused to dispense plan B said at one point "They can get it at another store or from another pharmacist in my store , but I won't dispense it." At no time was it said that the pharmacy didn't stock plan B or that this pharmacist explicitly blocks women from receiving the drug (although he very well may be blocking access to plan B, for the numerous reasons that All4MyDaughter and others have brought up). So while I don't necessarily agree with the pharmacist's beliefs about when life begins, I respect this guy because he isn't totally barring access - he's expressing his right to choose to dispense while providing other avenues for patients to receive the drug.

What worried me more was the interview with the governor (I don't remember what state it was). At one point he expressed frustration that the pharmacist wasn't filling a prescription that the doctor wrote, and while I don't recall verbatim what he said, he came across as the type of guy that considers pharmacists dispensing drones, not professionals. Even if we put all bickering aside about moral beliefs, there are still legislators/politicians that don't respect/understand the role of a pharmacist, and I find this more troubling.

 

[dgroulx]

Thanks for the ad hominem attacks. You just proved my earlier point about liberals slandering conservatives. It's predictable. I have not said anything that was anti-gay, anti-black, anti-women being intelligent or strong. Two of my favorite conservative columnists are black, Dr. Thomas Sowell and Dr. Walter Williams. I'm also a fan of Ann Coulter, who is an intelligent strong opinionated woman. You are just projecting your negative stereotypes of conservatives onto me. The moderator will give you a free pass, i'm sure. Take care.

Um, that wasn't an ad hominem attack. In order for that to happen, I would have to say that you were xyz. I said that you might like living in a rural town. That's hardly the same thing.

Why do you assume that I am liberal?

 

[bananaface]

\I'm sure that everyone on this forum agrees that if you own your own pharmacy you can carry (or not carry) whatever you want, and if you don't want to dispense something, you're probably not going to have it in stock anyway, so moot point.

You'd be surprised at how much variety there is within the profession.

I worked with one guy who felt that not only should all pharmacies stock the drug and all pharmacists dispense it, but that we all had a moral responsibility to get dispensing protocols set up so that we could serve as prescribers. Now, I support pharmacists setting up protocols, but very few of us think of that as being a moral obligation on the part of all pharmacists.

The CEO of my state's pharmacy association thinks that the public assumes Plan B is accessible at all pharmacies and that anyone who doesn't stock it ought to be required to put up a "Plan B not in stock" sign in their window. I asked him if hospital pharmacies ought to be required to do this and he said "of course not. I was referring to retail pharmacies". Then I asked him if retail compounding pharmacies ought to, and he got all wishy-washy. Apparently he didn't anticipate anyone pointing out that "pharmacy" or even "retail pharmacy" does not encompass any set bundle of available services.

Here is something to ponder. If your pharmacy is located across the street from a pharmacy that dispenses Plan B, should you be able to refer patients to that pharmacy instead of dispensing yourself? Does anyone feel that an obligaton to dispense is independent of an access problem?

 

[DHG]

-

 

[Moxxie]

Here is something to ponder. If your pharmacy is located across the street from a pharmacy that dispenses Plan B, should you be able to refer patients to that pharmacy instead of dispensing yourself? Does anyone feel that an obligaton to dispense is independent of an access problem?

Are you referring to a situation where the pharmacy you work for doesn't stock plan B (for whatever reason), or one in which you personally don't want to dispense plan B, are the only pharmacist working, and the patient requests other options?

I think in both cases I would send the patient across the street, but I know of some pharmacists that wouldn't because a) they are giving business away or b) by referring the woman with the rx for plan B to another pharmacist, they are facilitating the whole EC process (and thus are implicitly killing a potential baby). However, I believe that if there are not medical reasons for a prescription to be denied, the patient should have access (with some grey area for controlled drugs/drug seekers, of course). As such, I would either order the drug for the patient if we didn't keep it in stock, or if company policy prohibited the sale of that drug I would refer the patient to a pharmacy where they could obtain it. (But like I've mentioned before - I DO support a pharmacist's right to refuse a prescription, even if I wouldn't do so - we need to maintain our professional autonomy. I feel strongly, however, that any pharmacist that refuses to fill a valid, non-dangerous script should provide alternatives to the patient).

I suppose if I opposed plan B because I thought a zygote was a human being (assuming that plan B works by preventing implantation of said zygote), I would feel differently and wouldn't want to refer a patient to another pharmacy. But if I felt that way, I wouldn't want to fill BC scripts or sell condoms - but maybe I'm being too logical. 🙄

 

[dgroulx]

I suppose if I opposed plan B because using it could prevent implantation of a zygote, I would feel differently and wouldn't want to refer a patient to another pharmacy. But if I felt that way, I wouldn't want to fill BC scripts or sell condoms - but maybe I'm being too logical. 🙄

There's not a such thing as too logical. I have complete respect for Catholics who are against all forms of birth control. They don't pick and choose. After all, Every Sperm is Sacred.

 

[bananaface]

Are you referring to a situation where the pharmacy you work for doesn't stock plan B (for whatever reason), or one in which you personally don't want to dispense plan B, are the only pharmacist working, and the patient requests other options?

I think in both cases I would send the patient across the street, but I know of some pharmacists that wouldn't because a) they are giving business away or b) by referring the woman with the rx for plan B to another pharmacist, they are facilitating the whole EC process (and thus are implicitly killing a potential baby). However, I believe that if there are not medical reasons for a prescription to be denied, the patient should have access (with some grey area for controlled drugs/drug seekers, of course). As such, I would either order the drug for the patient if we didn't keep it in stock, or if company policy prohibited the sale of that drug I would refer the patient to a pharmacy where they could obtain it.

I left the scenario open on purpose.

Your comment brings up an important point. There are cases where it may be an ethically superior decision to send a patient elsewhere. If your two options are to send your patient across the street to get Plan B today or to order it in to your store for tomorrow, you really ought to be referring to avoid a delay in care. In that scenario, the time dependent efficacy of the drug is key.

 

[dgroulx]

I left the scenario open on purpose.

Your comment brings up an important point. There are cases where it may be an ethically superior decision to send a patient elsewhere. If your two options are to send your patient across the street to get Plan B today or to order it in to your store for tomorrow, you really ought to be referring to avoid a delay in care. In that scenario, the time dependent efficacy of the drug is key.

When we discussed this in our pharmacy ethics class, we decided that they only ethical solution was to send the patient to another pharmacy. There's about 300 students in my class and about 90% of us chose that option during our online survey even before we discussed it via video conference.

 

[Moxxie]

I left the scenario open on purpose.

Your comment brings up an important point. There are cases where it may be an ethically superior decision to send a patient elsewhere. If your two options are to send your patient across the street to get Plan B today or to order it in to your store for tomorrow, you really ought to be referring to avoid a delay in care. In that scenario, the time dependent efficacy of the drug is key.

I totally agree with you there - for something like plan B that has a 72 hour (or less) window, the patient needs to get the drug ASAP and should be referred to another pharmacy. I was more thinking about circumstances where timeliness wasn't an issue. Although I can't think of too many controversial drugs that would fit this criteria - maybe someone else can fill me in.

There's not a such thing as too logical. I have complete respect for Catholics who are against all forms of birth control. They don't pick and choose. After all, Every Sperm is Sacred.

I have respect for them too, even if I don't understand it. I grew up Catholic (we went every week, my dad taught Sunday school, etc.), but not in the typical way. My mom took us to Planned Parenthood classes as soon as we hit puberty and had pro-choice stickers on her car. While this didn't go over too well with our priest, my mom still sticks to her beliefs that birth control is a separate issue from religion and that women's rights are more important than what the pope thinks *gasp*. I've since moved away from Catholicism, and if I can be considered anything it would be Episcopal, although I don't regularly attend services and consider myself a humanist above all else 🙂

 

[museabuse]

I can understand that if a pharmacist believes life begins at conception that they might have a problem with plan B. However, you should have a problem with regular birth control also.

If you don't then you are a hypocrite! Because regular birth control CAN cause a fertilized egg not to implant in the uterus.

You should also be againt IUD's.

You should also be against invitro fertilization since fertilized eggs are often destroyed or used for stem cell research.

You should also be against stem cell research.

Good look finding a job if you refuse regular Birth Control.

Since most pharmacists that refuse to dispense plan B dispense regular B/C it leads me to believe that their reason for not dispensing plan B is not based on moral ground but some other reason like power trips using morality as a smoke screen.

If you are that morally against plan B then wouldn't you also be likely to believe homosexuallity and pre maritial sex is a sin. If you found out your customer was gay would you dispense viagra to that customer?

Good look finding a job if you refuse to dispense Viagra.

One can believe it is morally wrong to take plan B, but still dispense plan B. You are not forcing the pill down her throat. YOu can despense it and cousel her on adoption or whatever and still feel like you tried your best to help her. Ultimately it is between her and God, not you, her, and God.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

One can believe it is morally wrong to take plan B, but still dispense plan B. You are not forcing the pill down her throat. YOu can despense it and cousel her on adoption or whatever and still feel like you tried your best to help her. Ultimately it is between her and God, not you, her, and God.

I agree 100%. People who don't believe in Plan B shouldn't use it themselves. If you are against abortion, don't have one. Let other people do what they want to/think is right.

One of my close friends is a Muslim, so he does not drink alcohol. He works for Brown-Forman and does not see it as a conflict. He gets $800 of free booze a year and gives it away to non-Muslim friends. He gave me a $50 bottle of Woodford Reserve. 😀

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Good look finding a job if you refuse to dispense Viagra.

Off topic, but my new boss is quite the joker. Tonight he pretended to take a prescription off the voicemail. It was viagra, and he said it was from a vet for a pet GERBIL. He went on and on about needing to research to find out if there were off-label uses for viagra in animals and how we would have to split the tablet really small, blah, blah, blah. Then he pretended to talk to the vet and claimed he was told that it was in fact for breeding this supposedly prize winning (?) geriatric gerbil... This went on for over an hour, and we were all appropriately scandalized, until he admitted he made it all up.

What a stinker!