Daily Show on Comedy Central tonight (2/9/06)

[Aznfarmerboi]

Museabuse, I am not sure what your experience is with pharmacy, birth control, and plan B. I also believe that you are ranting from your own sterotypes. I know a lot of people rant on this forum but it is not enough to call someone a hypocrite or wishing them good lucking finding a job as a pharmacist. Ranting from sterotype does not mean you can reach a factious conclusion.

The main point for ALL Catholics is that Plan B's ONLY indication is to prevent implantation and hence kill the child. That is the belief. We can dispense birth control since there are many indications for it; the main one preventing the egg from ovulating. That is the difference both and why nobody every brought up your arguement.
If you are saying that we cannot dispense birth control because it can kill a baby already there, technically, anything can kill a baby inside your womb. A good percent of our drugs are tetragenic. If you are saying that we are preventing birth, which is a sin. . . it is not. As long as there is no child (in which the sperm meets the egg according to Catholic belief), birth control is okay to most Catholics. The only problem that I see is that God made love and sex so great only for the joy of bringing a child to this world. Its a sin to convert turn sex into a mindless thing. <--- know a few immature people are going to make fun of this so go ahead.

Stem cell research is still being heavily debated among the church even though there the "infalliable" pope has decreed it to be a crime. However the topic of invitro and Stem cell is still being heavily debated. As science progresses and the definitions changes, the technically can make it valid to the chuch.

I can understand that if a pharmacist believes life begins at conception that they might have a problem with plan B. However, you should have a problem with regular birth control also.

If you don't then you are a hypocrite! Because regular birth control CAN cause a fertilized egg not to implant in the uterus.

You should also be againt IUD's.

You should also be against invitro fertilization since fertilized eggs are often destroyed or used for stem cell research.

You should also be against stem cell research.

Good look finding a job if you refuse regular Birth Control.

Since most pharmacists that refuse to dispense plan B dispense regular B/C it leads me to believe that their reason for not dispensing plan B is not based on moral ground but some other reason like power trips using morality as a smoke screen.

If you are that morally against plan B then wouldn't you also be likely to believe homosexuallity and pre maritial sex is a sin. If you found out your customer was gay would you dispense viagra to that customer?

Good look finding a job if you refuse to dispense Viagra.

One can believe it is morally wrong to take plan B, but still dispense plan B. You are not forcing the pill down her throat. YOu can despense it and cousel her on adoption or whatever and still feel like you tried your best to help her. Ultimately it is between her and God, not you, her, and God.

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[museabuse]

The main point for ALL Catholics is that Plan B's ONLY indication is to prevent implantation and hence kill the child. That is the belief. We can dispense birth control since there are many indications for it; the main one preventing the egg from ovulating. That is the difference both and why nobody every brought up your arguement.
If you are saying that we cannot dispense birth control because it can kill a baby already there, technically, anything can kill a baby inside your womb. A good percent of our drugs are tetragenic. If you are saying that we are preventing birth, which is a sin. . . it is not..

You missed my point completely. The main mechanism of action is to prevent ovulation, but that is not 100%. Ovulation can occur and then conception can happen. From that point on oral contraception can prevent implantation into the uterus due to the hormonal effect from the drug, just like plan B. It is a secondary mechanism of action of OC. So if you believe life begins at conception and you willing dispense OC, then you are in effect saying although there is a small chance, "it is ok to kill that one baby out of 1000 times I dispense OC".
By the way if ovulation has not happened yet, Plan B can prevent that too.

As long as there is no child (in which the sperm meets the egg according to Catholic belief), birth control is okay to most Catholics.

My point exactly OC does not completely stop that.

Stem cell research is still being heavily debated among the church even though there the "infalliable" pope has decreed it to be a crime. However the topic of invitro and Stem cell is still being heavily debated. As science progresses and the definitions changes, the technically can make it valid to the chuch

Glad to see you have to wait for the church to make up your mind. Wish I could wait for the church to give me my answers to my finals.

If the church says stem cell research is ok and life begins at conception then there is an obvious contradiction there.

If you believe life begins at conception thats great, but don't say plan B is not ok because it prevents implantation then say OC is ok because it only prevents implantation <1%. If you do then you are not valuing all life and therefore a hypocrite.

 

[pharmaz88]

I like eggs.

 

[Moxxie]

Aznfamerboi - I'm going to be picky here. You said: "As long as there is no child (in which the sperm meets the egg according to Catholic belief), birth control is okay to most Catholics." This is wrong. Catholic doctrine decries almost ALL kinds of birth control: (from http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp)

In 1968, Pope Paul VI issued his landmark encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (Latin, "Human Life"), which reemphasized the Church’s constant teaching that it is always intrinsically wrong to use contraception to prevent new human beings from coming into existence.

Contraception is "any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (Humanae Vitae 14). This includes sterilization, condoms and other barrier methods, spermicides, coitus interruptus (withdrawal method), the Pill, and all other such methods.

This view was one that was drilled into my head from when I was a child (not that I agreed/believed it, but this is STILL church doctrine). As I mentioned before, my mother took my siblings and I to Planned Parenthood and made sure that we knew what birth control was and its purposes. However, the only actual method of birth control that was ever advocated by my church was the rhythm method - preventing pregnancy by not having sex at certain times of the month. Even this is considered shady by some priests.

To put it simply, strict catholics believe that the main purpose for sex is for procreation (this is called "natural law"). Any time you have sex and use birth control (whether or not the woman is fertile), you have the potential to make a child. Anything you do to prevent this child from being created is bad - it's against the "natural law." Like Dana said (and Monty Python before her), "Every sperm is sacred."

To quote more from this website:

Ignoring the mountain of evidence, some maintain that the Church considers the use of contraception a matter for each married couple to decide according to their "individual conscience." Yet, nothing could be further from the truth. The Church has always maintained the historic Christian teaching that deliberate acts of contraception are always gravely sinful, which means that it is mortally sinful if done with full knowledge and deliberate consent (CCC 1857). This teaching cannot be changed and has been taught by the Church infallibly.

There is no way to deny the fact that the Church has always and everywhere condemned artificial contraception. The matter has already been infallibly decided. The so-called "individual conscience" argument amounts to "individual disobedience."

Now, I'm not saying that I agree with this - the Catholic church's stance on birth control, homosexuals, and women in the clergy are the main reasons that I don't consider myself a Catholic any longer. But if you're going to argue about the reasons that a Catholic has against plan B, you need to have your facts straight. In this way, museabuse was correct in saying that a Catholic pharmacist that refuses to dispense Plan B but still dispenses birth control/condoms/IUDs is being a hypocrite. (I think that it could have been said in a more eloquent way, but que sera sera).

 

[bananaface]

he main point for ALL Catholics is that Plan B's ONLY indication is to prevent implantation and hence kill the child. That is the belief. We can dispense birth control since there are many indications for it; the main one preventing the egg from ovulating. That is the difference both and why nobody every brought up your arguement.

Actually, Plan B's primary MOA is prevention of ovulation. I'm not sure where you got your information about the indication for Plan B (levonorgestrel), but you are absoulutely incorrect in your statement that "Plan B's ONLY indication is to prevent implantation and hence kill the child". Plan B is nothing but high dose birth control pills.

Just as a general thought, it's not really a safe assumption to lump all people into one belief/practice group based on their chose nreligion.

 

[Moxxie]

Oh, and just to make myself clear after spouting off all this Catholic doctrine - I realize that what the Catholic church decrees and what the average Catholic believes/practices can be different (in my family's case - very different). I just wanted to make it clear that if you use the argument about ALL catholics having a certain belief, you need to know what the "official" church stance is on that particular issue.

I still stand by the assertion that if someone says that they won't dispense plan B "because they are a Catholic," they need to also refuse to dispense a lot of other items/drugs.

 

[Janusdog]

This issue is NOT about the patient...it is about the rights we have as PROFESSIONALS.

Just...wow. Everything is about the patient. If pharmacists don't see it that way, and you are indeed speaking for most professionals, well, I will be encouraging people to get scripts filled online as much as humanly possible.

Health care professions are all about establishing trust with patients. That trust is in jeopardy where pharmacists are concerned. It isn't enough to say it's only a few people who will have this problem. All medical professions I know make attempts to increase access, not find ways to make a patient's life more difficult.

Just because we are licensed professionals does not mean that we are allowed to put our personal beliefs over the welfare of the patient. If you don't want to touch Plan B with your hands you are responsible for making sure the patient gets his or her needs met in a different way. And I mean in an active way. Not just a wave of your hand and an 'eh.'

Just having a license does not make anyone special. Nail techs are licensed. Doesn't mean I want them doing brain surgery. It's a certification of minimal competence, not a certificate of holier than thou status.

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

Sorry, I guess I got to go back and restudy my birth controls, and theology 101 notes.

Jansdog, I must agree with AmandaRXs here. The issue which is THE CLIP THAT was originally posted is about the rights of the profession. It does not concern the patient at all. Hot chick. . come on, its about governor of Illinoise versus pharmacists.

2nd, If this is about the patient, which patient are you talking about? The mother or the child?


3rd. Your point about health care profession and developing trust is more of an opinion than a fact. In fact, trust is one of the tools that we can use to get the patient to give us more information so that we can help them. Sure I agree with you that we should serve the population, but as long as it doesnt force me to do anything that is wrong.

I dont see what is wrong with me not wanting to fill a birth control pill based on my beliefs. I never said that I wouldnt send the patient to another pharmacy.

Having a license is special because it entitles you to special rights that a layman does not have in that practice. If you are licensed as a nail tech, good for you. Noone here expressed any holier than thou attitude. I merely defended that what a license allows us to do, which is to practice pharmacy.

 

[28657]

Just...wow. Everything is about the patient. If pharmacists don't see it that way, and you are indeed speaking for most professionals, well, I will be encouraging people to get scripts filled online as much as humanly possible.

Everything is NOT about the patient. Pharmacists are autonomous and have rights beyond the needs of their patients.

Ooooh what a concept!

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

Everything is NOT about the patient. Pharmacists are autonomous and have rights beyond the needs of their patients.

Ooooh what a concept!

LOL

 

[museabuse]

I dont see what is wrong with me not wanting to fill a birth control pill based on my beliefs. I never said that I wouldnt send the patient to another pharmacy.

If you truly believe life begins at conception and really have a problem with any pills that stops a pregnancy after conception like plan B and BC, then I don't have a problem with that. At least your true to your beliefs and not a hypocrite like the ones who are against plan b but then ok with BC.

But if I was really that morally against both of these medications I would have a problem with referring too. Too me, it would be like saying, "Don't kill your baby here, but I will call another pharmacy, reserve the drug that will kill your baby, and then tell you the exactly where to go to kill you baby." Too me that is not that much different then dispensing.

I have a solution for people who are morally against plan B and BC. Put a giant sign outside your pharmacy on the street that says in big bold letters, "WE DO NOT DISPENSE BC OR PLAN B PLEASE GO ELSEWHERE... WE ARE MORAL PEOPLE HERE!"

That way you avoid the interaction and you don't have to refuse the rx and you avoid the confrontation.

If you don't think putting the sign out front is a good idea, then you probably like the idea of the confrontation and you either enjoy using your position as a pharmacist to fullfill your need for a powertrip or you like to pass judgement on people or you like making woman feel uncomfortable and bad about themselves.

 

[jme102]

Sorry, I'm ******ed and didn't realize that my post had already basically been posted by someone else.

 

[Blue On Black]

Um, that wasn't an ad hominem attack. In order for that to happen, I would have to say that you were xyz. I said that you might like living in a rural town. That's hardly the same thing.

Why do you assume that I am liberal?

You said that he would like to live in a rural town where all the people were anti-gay, anti-black, and anti-women who are strong and intelligent. This statement without a doubt was meant to imply this man is a bigot. How can you be so smarmy that you deny that you were falsely accusing this man of being a bigot? There are no posts in this thread in which SpursFan21 expressed bigotry toward blacks, women, or gays. The moderator did not warn or ban you for your false hateful accusation based on your negative inaccurate stereotypes of conservatives and people in rural areas, just as SpursFan21 predicted. You owe this man an apology, but he's been unfairly banned by the moderator to receive it.

 

[28657]

You said that he would like to live in a rural town where all the people were anti-gay, anti-black, and anti-women who are strong and intelligent. This statement without a doubt was meant to imply this man is a bigot. How can you be so smarmy that you deny that you were falsely accusing this man of being a bigot? There are no posts in this thread in which SpursFan21 expressed bigotry toward blacks, women, or gays. The moderator did not warn or ban you for your false hateful accusation based on your negative inaccurate stereotypes of conservatives and people in rural areas, just as SpursFan21 predicted. You owe this man an apology, but he's been unfairly banned by the moderator to receive it.

You're wrong on 2 counts.

1. The bannee was Future Neuro not SpursFan21.
2. Conservatives are bigots.

 

[Moxxie]

You're wrong on 2 counts.

1. The bannee was Future Neuro not SpursFan21.
2. Conservatives are bigots.

Oh Snap!

 

[bananaface]

If troll posts are reported using the report post button (

), it will speed up the cleanup process.

 

[ultracet]

If troll posts are reported using the report post button (

), it will speed up the cleanup process.

I think some posters are afraid of the post report button... the disclaimer at the bottom always make me thing twice.. as... it it really spam? or fighting per say??

While i do believe that the blue on black poster was a troll or perhaps a second account or something...
i didn't really think they were making a good effort to fight or being all that rude..


then again...
this is MY perspective

any my definition of troll is probably very different than some others

 

[bananaface]

I think some posters are afraid of the post report button... the disclaimer at the bottom always make me thing twice.. as... it it really spam? or fighting per say??

While i do believe that the blue on black poster was a troll or perhaps a second account or something...
i didn't really think they were making a good effort to fight or being all that rude..


then again...
this is MY perspective

any my definition of troll is probably very different than some others

The account belonged to a returned bannee.

That warning does appear really narrow. I will talk to the admins and see if we can have it revised to include "or other TOS violations". Messages go to the mods of the particular forum, not to all mods. It's basically just a way to give us a heads up when something goes wrong or looks suspicious. They probably put the warning there to keep people from using it too lightly. That hasn't really been a problem for this forums' users.

 

[njac]

I've lived in small towns, I'm aware of the issues women may face and the limited access.

I like the idea of the "We Don't Carry Plan-B" signs, BUT, say there were two pharmacies in town, one with the sign and one without. There are some *****s out there who might threaten or who knows what the pharmacy that does stock the drug. That's my beef with the outright statement of "yes we stock" or "no we don't". I have some pro-choice stickers on my car and it was keyed several different times. I just don't think it would be safe for the pharmacist or any of the other employees to have such a sign up. Particularly these days when it is socially acceptable to be a religious fanatic.

(don't I ever love it when my fundie boss tells me that America hates Christians. my ass America hates christians. the rest of us are just tired of hearing about it)