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Why Diversity Programs Fail

After Wall Street firms repeatedly had to shell out millions to settle discrimination lawsuits, businesses started to get serious about their efforts to increase diversity. But unfortunately, they don’t seem to be getting results: Women and minorities have not gained much ground in management...
hbr.org hbr.org

Either we are evidence-based or we are not.
 
radoncdoc16 said:
Can someone explain how this was a racist event vs just elitist?





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She’s probably had to deal with being under estimated many times , so she filters that interaction throughher lens of her “lived experience” (as the kids say) and it filters out that some of this interaction was steeped in racism.

There is no way to prove this was a racist interaction but she probably perceived it that way it seems.

She may be right. She may be wrong. I’ve had similar interactions before, typically in a surgery rotation ...
 
radoncdoc16 said:
Can someone explain how this was a racist event vs just elitist?





Click to expand...


My view - not all examples of people being an ass to black folks during medical training is evidence of racism. Unfortunately it's hard to prove why the person made that comment when you post about it 5 years later, as you need to dissect it in that moment.

Maybe that attending is very understanding of white people not knowing things and only criticizes black people. Agree that that would be racist. Story as presented is textbook "racism is in the eye of the beholder". Had to explain to my own father (a ORM) recently (as he's starting to become 'woke' to microaggressions) that a negative relationship he had with one of his bosses at one of his old jobs was not evidence for racism. Just because X person does not like you, unless they say something racist or you know their thoughts, it's impossible to know whether they are actually racist at all.

Of course, nowadays, god forbid if you criticize somebody who is a URM, regardless of whether they deserve it or not. Prepare to be lambasted as a racist dingus 5 years later in an anonymized tweet!
 
Chartreuse Wombat said:

Why Diversity Programs Fail

After Wall Street firms repeatedly had to shell out millions to settle discrimination lawsuits, businesses started to get serious about their efforts to increase diversity. But unfortunately, they don’t seem to be getting results: Women and minorities have not gained much ground in management...
hbr.org hbr.org

Either we are evidence-based or we are not.
Click to expand...

Only the Sith deal in absolutes.
 
When I was in med school our radiology professor showed us an x-ray of a knee joint and asked my friend sitting next to me (in a full amphitheater with 100+ students present) what he though the structure was in front of the knee joint (pointing at it with his laser pointer). My friend said: "It looks like a mass in front of the knee joint. Perhaps a tumor?". The professor said: "Yes, that tumor is called the patella. Perhaps you should start over your studies." I guess Peter, my friend, was embarassed back, since the whole amphitheater bursted out in laughs, but he's probably telling that story with a smile on his face this very day. He became a surgeon.

Some people like to overreact and look for an excuse of how they were mistreated every day. I guess it makes them feel better.
 
radoncdoc16 said:
Can someone explain how this was a racist event vs just elitist?





Click to expand...


Just want to say that good old lemmiwinks on Twitter asked the hard question - was summarily inferred that he/she was a racist, and was told the discussion could only continue if the person doxxed themselves. And hence, here is why SDN must continue to exist.

I have also been asked whether I actually went to med school or not as well by an attending during medical school. However, I am not a URM, so I didn't immediately process that it was solely bc of my race, But rather that there are some percentage of dinguses in whatever aspect of life we find ourselves in.

Chalk up Dr Chapman in the same boat as RJ and KW to me. There are real stories of racism out there, and those are reprehensible. This is narcissism dressed up as victim nmentality, IMO. Even Sue Evans asked the relevant question before realizing her career was at stake and backtracked to virtue signaling.
 
Agree. There are some jerks In medicine. Sometimes, otherwise good people make mean spirited or uncalled for comments. We have had to deal with this since kindergarten and I experience both as a daily occurrence. It is not raciism.
 
This is the problem. I would like to say the vast majority of us advocate against racism

It’s frustrating when if you don’t agree with certain individuals 100% of the time, then you are considered a racist
 
In July of third year on rounds, I had a faculty member say to me in front of the whole team, "You know how I know you're a med student? You get 50/50 questions wrong 100% of the time." It didn't feel great.

**** happens. If it were fun and easy, everyone would do it. My suggestion is to use it as motivation.
 
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radoncdoc16 said:
It’s frustrating when if you don’t agree with certain individuals 100% of the time, then you are considered a racist
Click to expand...

My women's studies class unequivocally taught that "all white men are racist" - it's an indisputable truth in the universe. It was repeated over and over again. It's sort of like how we are all born sinners- except in this case only if you are white and XY.
 
StIGMA said:
My women's studies class unequivocally taught that "all white men are racist" - it's an indisputable truth in the universe. It was repeated over and over again. It's sort of like how we are all born sinners- except in this case only if you are white and XY.
Click to expand...
In college, a class on women/racial issues was required. Took one on feminism in science and the whole class was about how scientific method was inherently racist and sexist and we needed a new approach to come up with some sort of feminisitic science. Used an example of Barbara mclintock visualizing herself inside a Petri dish with yeast.
I tried to write a paper on how historically scientists may have been sexist and racist and misused science and came to wrong conclusions, but the scientific method was still objective. Had to rewrite the paper to pass the class. Whole experience made me more conservative politically.
 
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The specialty would benefit from more hispanics and AA in RO. Whether it is ethical to trick them into a field with declining pay, mobility, laterality, utilization, opportunity, is a different question. This is America after all. I want all of these people to be incredibly successful. The American dream lies elsewhere.
 
radoncdoc16 said:
This is the problem. I would like to say the vast majority of us advocate against racism

It’s frustrating when if you don’t agree with certain individuals 100% of the time, then you are considered a racist
Click to expand...

RickyScott said:
In college, a class on women/racial issues was required. Took one on feminism in science and the whole class was about how scientific method was inherently racist and sexist and we needed a new approach to come up with some sort of feminisitic science. Used an example of Barbara mclintock visualizing herself inside a Petri dish with yeast.
I tried to right a paper on how historically scientists may have been sexist and racist, the scientific method was objective. Had to rewrite the paper to pass the class. Whole experience made me more conservative politically.
Click to expand...

Maybe it never occurred to Dr. Chapman that it was sexism not racism that led to the questioning 🤣
 
RickyScott said:
In college, a class on women/racial issues was required. Took one on feminism in science and the whole class was about how scientific method was inherently racist and sexist and we needed a new approach to come up with some sort of feminisitic science. Used an example of Barbara mclintock visualizing herself inside a Petri dish with yeast.
I tried to write a paper on how historically scientists may have been sexist and racist and misused science and came to wrong conclusions, but the scientific method was still objective. Had to rewrite the paper to pass the class. Whole experience made me more conservative politically.
Click to expand...
Felt the same going in the other direction once i learned about redlining, food deserts etc. Then again i didn't take a mandated class...
 
radoncdoc16 said:
Can someone explain how this was a racist event vs just elitist?





Click to expand...


This is infuriating. And not surprising given the absurd and false narrative/dialogue that is being pushed right now that America is filled with white people who hate minorities.

I am a white male. I experienced comments far worse than this as a med student and struggled to match into radiation oncology.

The reality is, that as a black female, she has a huge advantage over equally accomplished white males when it comes to gaining admission into med school and even getting into residencies. Most PDs and chairs would be ecstatic to match a black female.

Unfortunately the constant gaslighting by the above-mentioned far left woke academics has left an entire generation of racial minorities taught to always play the victim card and believe that anything bad that happens to them is always due to racism. There is absolutely zero proof or credence to her contention that this wouldn't have been said to someone who "looked like him."

Newsflash: You are not a special little snowflake and the fact that you have a degree in biomedical engineering (super lame field BTW where you just get cursory glances at MechE, EE, and chemE rather than digging in deep in any one of them) matters absolutely nothing to starting a new field of study.

Racism has been redefinied in the dictionary to basically suggest that it is impossible to be racist against a white person or to dislike/criticize somebody for being white. This is not conducive to a healthy society. Perhaps, when taking a look at the dictionary and words you don't like, maybe take a look at the word HUMILITY.
 
From the Twitter exchange: "(And if you're going to continue commenting, provide your name.)"

Why? Why should this be necessary in a debate?

We know why. Someone dared speak against the doctrine. They must be punished. Publicly.
 
"

Nah. We're not going to do this on this post. This is not about specialities eating their young or radonc job market. This is about racism in medicine, which is in every field. Prefacing your statement with the obvious (i.e. smart minorities do exist) shows you have work to do.


Replying to
@lemmiwenks
and
@JohnsHopkins
When you didn't know the answer to a question in med school, especially one that you wouldn't have been expected to know, how many times were you asked whether you really attended the school? (And if you're going to continue commenting, provide your name.)


Thank you for the clarification about what constitutes racism. As a black woman who has studied, published on, and lived through racism, I really wasn't sure. I already addressed this, so have nothing more for you.
"

This "social justice warrior by passion" is a real piece of work.
1. Racism is what I say it is.
2. I don't have to respond to your very valid points unless I can reserve the right to doxx you and resort to dragging your name through the mud by just calling you racist for disagreeing with me, because after all see #1 above.
3. Don't challenge my pre-conceived conclusions as to what constitutes a racist attack. I don't have to defend myself against logical retorts.

This woman's entitled, snarky attitude is doing absolutely no service at all to her cause. In fact, it's actively counter-productive.

Furthermore, she was able to become a radiation oncologist and is likely in the top 1% of earners in this country. Yeah, that sure sounds like a super racist society conspiring to keep people like her from achieving. It's not as bad as multimillionaire athlethes complaining from their mansions about systemic racism and how white men are holding back blacks. But still not a good look.
 
I'll make a quick point. I think everyone who goes through medical training has been made to feel 2 inches tall at some point because they said or did something dumb. This is probably good on the whole, as it teaches humility to those that have known little but easy success, encourages preparedness, and motivates you to not let it happen again. It's basically why ABR oral boards exist. Call it hazing or whatever. It happens.

As a white guy, I never had to wonder if the comment(s) directed toward me had anything to do with my race or gender. I knew it was just because I said or did something dumb. I can fix that. Can't change your race or gender though. I can't really understand what it'd like to have those thoughts lingering in the back of your head. It must really suck, and I think some here would be wise to try to imagine yourself in those shoes.

To me, the cited example seems like a straightforward case of A-Holes going to A-Hole, but I wasn't there and can't be in her shoes. Who knows? I think if Christina Chapman is completely honest with herself, that interaction more than any other likely inspired a drive within her to become a head and neck radiation oncologist, if only to prove some A-Hole wrong. All my 2 inch tall moments inspired some similar fire within me. Living well is the best revenge.
 
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So what do these folks think of Ted Lawrence? Jagsi and Chapman should push for more diverse chair no?
 
MegaVoltagePhoton said:
So what do these folks think of Ted Lawrence? Jagsi and Chapman should push for more diverse chair no?
Click to expand...
RadOncMegatron said:
A couple of things

1) I can't wait until Reshma Jagsi has to point out actual real life people, not imaginary "white men" to bring down. She needs to WALK THE WALK in her own dept. before trying to clean up the rest of the world. FIRE YOUR OWN WHITE MALE CHAIR WHO HAS BEEN THERE A LONG TIME. Oh btw, see some other “random who cares b/c they are white males” under Theodore Lawrence as well on their website


View attachment 283571

2) Dr. Jagsi keeps harping about URMs - UNDER represented minorities. SHE IS ASIAN/INDIAN = OVER REPRESENTED minority. Be consistent and apply your own rules to YOURSELF. Bonus How long have you kept your deputy chair position? Isn't time for you to move over for a true URM.

Mind you there are only 2-3% Jews in the population and 6-7% Asians, but I believe these groups make up 10-15% and 20-25% of physicians respectively. Dr. Jagsi tell us how much is too much? Perhaps you can just ask your alma mater / Harvard for advice.

3) I have been saying here for a while, this is eventually going to spill over into the patient doctor relationship. I am not looking forward to the day when patient's ask for a white, black, Asian, Hispanic, Muslim, Jewish, etc. doctor that best matches their own identity. Following on the heals of this will be those who will want to ask on ideological basis. Politics is destroying everything why should the patient-doctor relationship be spared?
Click to expand...


Yup, I called this out and cited the paper @OTN noted last year.

Hypocrites. Do it at your own institution and family first.
 
Mandelin Rain said:
I'll make a quick point. I think everyone who goes through medical training has been made to feel 2 inches tall at some point because they said or did something dumb. This is probably good on the whole, as it teaches humility to those that have known little but easy success, encourages preparedness, and motivates you to not let it happen again. It's basically why ABR oral boards exist. Call it hazing or whatever. It happens.

As a white guy, I never had to wonder if the comment(s) directed toward me had anything to do with my race or gender. I knew it was just because I said or did something dumb. I can fix that. Can't change your race or gender though. I can't really understand what it'd like to have those thoughts lingering in the back of your head. It must really suck, and I think some here would be wise to try to imagine yourself in those shoes.

To me, the cited example seems like a straightforward case of A-Holes going to A-Hole, but I wasn't there and can't be in her shoes. Who knows? I think if Christina Chapman is completely honest with herself, that interaction more than any other likely inspired a drive within her to become a head and neck radiation oncologist, if only to prove some A-Hole wrong. All my 2 inch tall moments inspired some similar fire within me.
Click to expand...

This is a fair take.

I think it's fair to say that it's nice to never have to wonder if something was motivated by race or sexism. It's a nice little perk you have growing up as a white dude. It's why IMO it's a good thing to remember how other people may perceive interactions. Sure, you can call it privilege - it won't get my mad to call it that.

So it's understandable why she would have interpreted the convo in the way she did. She may very well be right about it.

It's also understandable why someone would question if it was really racism and not just an dingus attending picking on her.

Where many draw the line is not having a way to have a respectful, good faith "argument" with Dr. Chapman about her perception without fear of being ostracized. It will not help her in her training to have her teachers or co residents be afraid to call her out when they feel she might be wrong.



Aren't nuance and grace nice?
 
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scarbrtj said:
If you don't report it... does it still exist?

Click to expand...


Wait so disregard race when it comes to screening - African American for prostate cancer or Ashkenazi Jews for genetic testing?

But is eGFR for AA racist? I'm actually being serious, was this originally a racist thing - surely not! This is making me question my sanity (gas lit :flame: )!
 
RadOncMegatron said:
Wait so disregard race when it comes to screening - African American for prostate cancer or Ashkenazi Jews for genetic testing?

But is eGFR for AA racist? I'm actually being serious, was this originally a racist thing - surely not! This is making me question my sanity (gas lit :flame: )!
Click to expand...
I think soon the "gray" will be racist. Will have to start calling it a joule per kilogram. Gray was a white man; the unit sounds like a color too. Well even then Joule was a racist-y looking white man as well. Maybe we can call the gray a newton meter per kilogram. Huh. Newton was a white man too. Maybe best going forward is call the gray by a completely inherently non-sexist/non-racist unit: the kilogram meters squared per seconds squared, per kilogram. Or the meters squared per seconds squared* for short. Here's hoping meters and seconds aren't racist. Awww s*!t.

QdU6oiz.jpg


* yes, things they don't teach in residency: the gray really equals m*m/s*s, and no one really knows the true implications, racist or otherwise
 
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RadOncMegatron said:
Wait so disregard race when it comes to screening - African American for prostate cancer or Ashkenazi Jews for genetic testing?

But is eGFR for AA racist? I'm actually being serious, was this originally a racist thing - surely not! This is making me question my sanity (gas lit :flame: )!
Click to expand...

The far left rejected biological science a long time ago in favor of ideology.
You cannot state that a biological male who claims he is a woman is not an actual biological woman without being called transphobic and having the wokemob come for your job. You literally have the equivalent of having to say up is down. Compelled speech is a very, very bad thing.
In regards to your comment, can a woman have prostate cancer? Absolutely. Should we screen women for PSA in this era of compelled anti-scientific speech? Logically, we probably should.

With regards to the tweeter, one of the major themes/strategies of these social justice warriors is mixing up intent and effect.
Because she FELT that she was being picked on for her race/sex then undoubtedly that was the INTENT of the jerk attending. And she would be justified in going to the dean and demanding he be fired.

Cancel culture does not exist! They scream this at you and demand you agree with them that cancel culture does not exist or they will doxx you, videotape you, and go after your livelihood.

North Korea here we come. Kim jung un does not poop. He hit a hole in one on a 600 yard par 5. He designed a nuclear warhead when he was 4 years old. We are a peaceful country. Agree or we will murder your family.
 
KHE88 said:
North Korea here we come. Kim jung un does not poop. He hit a hole in one on a 600 yard par 5. He designed a nuclear warhead when he was 4 years old. We are a peaceful country. Agree or we will murder your family.
Click to expand...
What gets closest to this... well actually not close, it *is* this... is the Gender Recognition Certificate. You can be a "male," and take no hormones and have no surgery, and file paperwork and be fully recognized as "female" in the eyes of the law. Simply on the basis of your words... words trumping a reality?
 
If jobs really become very scarce in 5 years, which is very possible, is there an obligation to guarantee employment for any urm “recruited” in to specialty as part of woke activism. I am sure we are going to hear that argument in a couple years.
 
The funny thing about Jagsi and Chapman imo is as follows:

Jagsi has close to a thousand JCO publications (more or less... at least according to PubMed). Yet I don't really see Chapman listed on any of those (maybe I missed some??).

Honestly seems like the absolute best thing you can do to promote URMs within your own dept (besides apparently trying to get your own, long serving white male chair fired), is to make sure that those URMs can get involved as first authors on high profile projects.

I wonder why in the world this hasn't happened????? Maybe Jagsi still needs more first author publications to raise her profile??!
 
According to Scopus

Jagsi h-index is 53. 364 documents, 10 co-authored with Chapman

Chapman h-index is 10. 34 documents, 10 co-authored with Jagsi
 
Chartreuse Wombat said:
According to Scopus

Jagsi h-index is 53. 364 documents, 10 co-authored with Chapman

Chapman h-index is 10. 34 documents, 10 co-authored with Jagsi
Click to expand...
364? Wow, been in this field for a while and am not sure of anything meaningful she has contributed or what disease site she even treats, unlike other Michigan faculty -eisbruch, pierce, Ted Lawrence, Ben-Joseph etc
 
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According to Scopus the cited papers on which Dr Jagsi is an author. Sorry for the small font

1594251730916.png
 
KHE88 said:
Racism has been redefinied in the dictionary to basically suggest that it is impossible to be racist against a white person or to dislike/criticize somebody for being white. This is not conducive to a healthy society. Perhaps, when taking a look at the dictionary and words you don't like, maybe take a look at the word HUMILITY.
Click to expand...

I was told in my college sociology class that its not possible for an African American to be racist because racism is by definition rooted in power. Quite a few students piped up but quickly shut up when they realized they might not pass by dissenting. Just smile and nod....

When I was about to leave for college my mother co-signed on my first car but I would be expected to make the payments. As we were doing the paperwork she mentioned trying to figure out how to pay for college. The car salesman (who was African American) looked up and said "What.... you don't need to pay for college! My daughter has a full ride." My mother asked "how" and he said "scholarships". He was happy to print off the packet so I could apply as well. As we were driving away I looked through the entire packet. Take a wild guess what the common requirement was for all of them? You guessed it... every scholarship was for African Americans. I'm not sure if he was just ignorant or maybe it was his way of spitting in a honkey's face.
 
RickyScott said:
364? Wow, been in this field for a while and am not sure of anything meaningful she has contributed or what disease site she even treats, unlike other Michigan faculty -eisbruch, pierce, Ted Lawrence, Ben-Joseph etc
Click to expand...

Obviously, Dr. Jagsi and I are not buddies, but she knows her breast ca.
 
As a white guy, I know I'm the victim most of the time. The deck is definitely stacked against me. Let me tell the stories of my oppression.

Note: my sarcasm is not "white guilt", rather an honest appraisal of how the the world operates currently and how it has for the past millennium. The absurdity of snowflake white guys playing the victim is just hilarious.
 
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RadOncMegatron said:
Obviously, Dr. Jagsi and I are not buddies, but she knows her breast ca.
Click to expand...
300+ pubs (and I didn’t know her disease site) is an indication of “neomania” that Taleb and others have cited as a deligitimization of academics. In late 90s, almost none of the most prominent thought leaders in radonc would have anything close to this #. (I haven’t treated a breast cancer in quite a few years)
I am not waisting time looking up her authorship, but the concern is publishing and waisted productivity just to run up numbers.
 
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Mandelin Rain said:
As a white guy, I know I'm the victim most of the time. The deck is definitely stacked against me. Let me tell the stories of my oppression.

Note: my sarcasm is not "white guilt", rather an honest appraisal of how the the world operates currently and how it has for the past millennium. The absurdity of snowflake white guys playing the victim is just hilarious.
Click to expand...
saw a tweet recently, boasting of ethnic makeup of UCSF entering med class and it was 20% Caucasian. What more can be done.
 
Goes without saying, but San Francisco isn't exactly an accurate representation of what happens in the rest of the country and/or the world at large.
 
Mandelin Rain said:
Goes without saying, but San Francisco isn't exactly an accurate representation of what happens in the rest of the country and/or the world at large.
Click to expand...
its not, but it represents california's best, west coast equivalent of harvard (at much lower cost) in medicine, and california is often cited as preview to our multicultural future. Certainly caucasians dont make up 20% of the population in california.
 
FFVTJQNLIJE3VGLFQNSYNHMKDY.jpg

Here's a picture of the graduating class of of the Mississippi School of Medicine. For reference, Mississippi's population is 38% African American.
 
RickyScott said:
its not, but it represents california's best, west coast equivalent of harvard (at much lower cost) in medicine, and california is often cited as preview to our multicultural future. Certainly caucasians dont make up 20% of the population in california.
Click to expand...
Honest question. What about California scares you?
 
1594300613679.png

It's melanin OVERLOAD at UCSF!!!!
 

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Mandelin Rain said:
Honest question. What about California scares you?
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Nothing, I love it and would live there if I could and didn’t have to pay the taxes. Unfortunately nuance is not coming through on my posts. I am a life long moderate. My point is more about what more action/policy can be taken to improve representation? (Btw skin color does not differentiate many “ Hispanics” from caucasians for these absurd purposes.)
never thought we would be discussing race and prejudice in radonc!
 
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