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evilbooyaa said:
??
Click to expand...
At work, youtube is blocked, so all I saw was a brief screenshot of 9 or 10 human beings. Could've been a manel for all I know. I'm tired of manels. This is what i think i saw:
1636038652452.png
 
Yeah the screenshot shows plenty of women.
 
I watched it all. Figured it wouldn't be proper to comment without doing so. I will also be using current AP style rules for capitalizing of races.

It's exactly as one would expect if one has been following the march of post-structuralism --> critical theory --> critical race theory into academia, with no surprises in this session: All of the systems/institutions in the USA are racist, and all differences in outcomes between racial groups are a result of racism. There was no dissent between any of the discussants on any points made.

I thought Dr. Madu made some excellent points when it came to trying to encourage clinical trial enrollment for URMs.

Solutions proposed included increasing the number of "Black and Brown" radiation oncologists, but no one talked about whether that meant fewer whites or Asians in our specialty. I would guess fewer whites, based on specific discussants mentioning how too many chairs were white, but it wasn't discussed. Good points were made re: trying to recruit URMs into clinical trials. "Redistribution of resources" in departments to Black and Brown physicians was also suggested- this seemed to mean both salary support and grant money, but it wasn't clear. Finally, it seems DEI research/policy/etc will be the primary focus of ASTRO moving forward next year, at least based on my reading of the current ASTRO president's comments.

Personally, I find post-structuralism to be an interesting additive to usual critique, but I find it intellectually shallow and dishonest to deny that truthful knowledge can be gained by real-world experience and observation. As a result, I find both critical theory and it's child, critical race theory, to be completely lacking in empirical evidence, obviously disproven by real-world examples, and, at least when it comes to CRT, pitifully weak in its single-variable analysis of a complex world.

CRT adherents would say "of course you would say that, as you're a white guy who has benefitted from the white supremacist systems of oppression which infuse every aspect of our society."

So it goes.
 
If someone is genuinely interested in learning more about critical Theory I recommend the book below. The authors dive deep into the original texts for Theory and provide a compelling critique. It is a longer version of the OTN critique above.

Amazon product ASIN 1634312023
I would go farther than OTN and state that if ASTRO intends to put this at the middle of their scholarly/political efforts then it will be a disaster for ASTRO and it's membership
 
Chartreuse Wombat said:
If someone is genuinely interested in learning more about critical Theory I recommend the book below. The authors dive deep into the original texts for Theory and provide a compelling critique. It is a longer version of the OTN critique above.

Amazon product ASIN 1634312023
I would go farther than OTN and state that if ASTRO intends to put this at the middle of their scholarly/political efforts then it will be a disaster for ASTRO and it's membership
Click to expand...
I think it is a useful area of research and may prove to be an invaluable weapon against APM… but it should be no means be the core of our specialty’s research efforts. Let’s get back to trying figure out better ways to kill cancer.
 
OTN said:
I watched it all. Figured it wouldn't be proper to comment without doing so. I will also be using current AP style rules for capitalizing of races.

It's exactly as one would expect if one has been following the march of post-structuralism --> critical theory --> critical race theory into academia, with no surprises in this session: All of the systems/institutions in the USA are racist, and all differences in outcomes between racial groups are a result of racism. There was no dissent between any of the discussants on any points made.

I thought Dr. Madu made some excellent points when it came to trying to encourage clinical trial enrollment for URMs.

Solutions proposed included increasing the number of "Black and Brown" radiation oncologists, but no one talked about whether that meant fewer whites or Asians in our specialty. I would guess fewer whites, based on specific discussants mentioning how too many chairs were white, but it wasn't discussed. Good points were made re: trying to recruit URMs into clinical trials. "Redistribution of resources" in departments to Black and Brown physicians was also suggested- this seemed to mean both salary support and grant money, but it wasn't clear. Finally, it seems DEI research/policy/etc will be the primary focus of ASTRO moving forward next year, at least based on my reading of the current ASTRO president's comments.

Personally, I find post-structuralism to be an interesting additive to usual critique, but I find it intellectually shallow and dishonest to deny that truthful knowledge can be gained by real-world experience and observation. As a result, I find both critical theory and it's child, critical race theory, to be completely lacking in empirical evidence, obviously disproven by real-world examples, and, at least when it comes to CRT, pitifully weak in its single-variable analysis of a complex world.

CRT adherents would say "of course you would say that, as you're a white guy who has benefitted from the white supremacist systems of oppression which infuse every aspect of our society."

So it goes.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the summary and be the one person to bite the bullet and watch. Remember, it’s not just fewer whites and Asians. It’s also Jewish people who are “overrepresented.” So the looming question for all the wokesters is how many Jews are too many Jews? Of course the answer is there is no such thing as “too many Jews”‘in medicine. I frame it this way because the impact of saying too many “whites and Asians” is not as meaningful, while anti-semitism has a long and ugly historical basis.

For a quick review of structuralism and post-structuralism see here:
 
RadOncMegatron said:
Thanks for the summary and be the one person to bite the bullet and watch. Remember, it’s not just fewer whites and Asians. It’s also Jewish people who are “overrepresented.” So the looming question for all the wokesters is how many Jews are too many Jews? Of course the answer is there is no such thing as “too many Jews”‘in medicine. I frame it this way because the impact of saying too many “whites and Asians” is not as meaningful, while anti-semitism has a long and ugly historical basis.

For a quick review of structuralism and post-structuralism see here:
Click to expand...

Astro/Arro mentioned radonc residents were about 55% white. Doesn’t sound like they are over represented among residents relative to the general population.
 
OTN said:
I watched it all. Figured it wouldn't be proper to comment without doing so. I will also be using current AP style rules for capitalizing of races.

It's exactly as one would expect if one has been following the march of post-structuralism --> critical theory --> critical race theory into academia, with no surprises in this session: All of the systems/institutions in the USA are racist, and all differences in outcomes between racial groups are a result of racism. There was no dissent between any of the discussants on any points made.

I thought Dr. Madu made some excellent points when it came to trying to encourage clinical trial enrollment for URMs.

Solutions proposed included increasing the number of "Black and Brown" radiation oncologists, but no one talked about whether that meant fewer whites or Asians in our specialty. I would guess fewer whites, based on specific discussants mentioning how too many chairs were white, but it wasn't discussed. Good points were made re: trying to recruit URMs into clinical trials. "Redistribution of resources" in departments to Black and Brown physicians was also suggested- this seemed to mean both salary support and grant money, but it wasn't clear. Finally, it seems DEI research/policy/etc will be the primary focus of ASTRO moving forward next year, at least based on my reading of the current ASTRO president's comments.

Personally, I find post-structuralism to be an interesting additive to usual critique, but I find it intellectually shallow and dishonest to deny that truthful knowledge can be gained by real-world experience and observation. As a result, I find both critical theory and it's child, critical race theory, to be completely lacking in empirical evidence, obviously disproven by real-world examples, and, at least when it comes to CRT, pitifully weak in its single-variable analysis of a complex world.

CRT adherents would say "of course you would say that, as you're a white guy who has benefitted from the white supremacist systems of oppression which infuse every aspect of our society."

So it goes.
Click to expand...
Have you benefited from priviledge to get where you are today (financially,socially, professionally, etc)?
 
The problem is that everyone is being forced into one of two camps

1) Racism is everywhere and all encompassing. It is infused in every thread if American society. Whites should flagellate themselves for the rest of their lives to seek forgiveness for existing

2) Racism ended with the abolishment of slavery. True opportunity is equally distributed and every inequity in society can be explained by differences in character and determination

Perhaps we can all agree that neither is reasonable.
 
RadOncMegatron said:
Thanks for the summary and be the one person to bite the bullet and watch. Remember, it’s not just fewer whites and Asians. It’s also Jewish people who are “overrepresented.” So the looming question for all the wokesters is how many Jews are too many Jews? Of course the answer is there is no such thing as “too many Jews”‘in medicine. I frame it this way because the impact of saying too many “whites and Asians” is not as meaningful, while anti-semitism has a long and ugly historical basis.

For a quick review of structuralism and post-structuralism see here:
Click to expand...

Asians aren't gonna get lumped with the whites in the woke wars without a fight:

www.usatoday.com

Why bias blocks Asian Americans from top leadership positions

Calling out inherent bias is critical, but it also highlights a second societal problem: A dearth of APIs in leadership roles in our country.
www.usatoday.com
 
Lamount said:
The problem is that everyone is being forced into one of two camps

1) Racism is everywhere and all encompassing. It is infused in every thread if American society. Whites should flagellate themselves for the rest of their lives to seek forgiveness for existing

2) Racism ended with the abolishment of slavery. True opportunity is equally distributed and every inequity in society can be explained by differences in character and determination

Perhaps we can all agree that neither is reasonable.
Click to expand...

Sorry that’s a false narrative. No one says you have to say 1. That’s a straw man.


As many people’s girl Melania said - Be Better!
 
thecarbonionangle said:
Have you benefited from priviledge to get where you are today (financially,socially, professionally, etc)?
Click to expand...
Of course.

I was privileged to be raised in a home with both parents who placed a very large value on hard work and education, and this undoubtedly helped me succeed and get to where I am today. I’ve never denied this, and I hope to pass this privilege onto my daughters as they grow up.

The conflation of “don’t teach CRT” with “don’t teach about our history” is also not truthful. CRT is not a purely historical philosophy, and everyone knows it. I learned about the Tulsa Race Massacre, slavery, etc etc etc well before CRT started poisoning the national discourse.
 
jondunn said:
Sorry that’s a false narrative. No one says you have to say 1. That’s a straw man.


As many people’s girl Melania said - Be Better!
Click to expand...
You may not…

In truth, I lean a little more toward 1 than 2, but I am becoming increasingly aware that many are demanding an unattainable purity.

We used to have “evil can prevail when a good man stands by and does nothing”…and now we have “Silence is violence”. Silence isn’t violence.
 
Lamount said:
You may not…

In truth, I lean a little more toward 1 than 2, but I am becoming increasingly aware that many are demanding an unattainable purity.

We used to have “evil can prevail when a good man stands by and does nothing”…and now we have “Silence is violence”. Silence isn’t violence.
Click to expand...
Dont forget what MLK said!
 
OTN said:
Of course.

I was privileged to be raised in a home with both parents who placed a very large value on hard work and education, and this undoubtedly helped me succeed and get to where I am today. I’ve never denied this, and I hope to pass this privilege onto my daughters as they grow up.

The conflation of “don’t teach CRT” with “don’t teach about our history” is also not truthful. CRT is not a purely historical philosophy, and everyone knows it. I learned about the Tulsa Race Massacre, slavery, etc etc etc well before CRT started poisoning the national discourse.
Click to expand...

The only way ‘CRT poisoned’ is by the fact that people heard there’s something called CRT is poisonous.

It’s a complete and total joke. We all know it. Don’t play dumb, it’s unattractive
 
temujim said:
Plagiarizing large portions of your doctoral dissertation makes the whole process easier?

There might be others... How to Make Sense of the Shocking New MLK Documents
Click to expand...
Nice try but he actually said the silence of friends when you in need speaks volumes. He wrote in his letter, that he came to realize that the real enemy was the white moderate, who prefered order over justice who always said wait! except that time never came. Let that marinate!
 
thecarbonionangle said:
Nice try but he actually said the silence of friends when you in need speaks volumes. He wrote in his letter, that he came to realize that the real enemy was the white moderate, who prefered order over justice who always said wait! except that time never came. Let that marinate!
Click to expand...

The problem is that… there is a wide gulf between being an obstacle, and not perpetually “fighting for the cause”, and when you starting implying that people are “the real enemy”, they may just oblige you.
 
“the only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination.”

Ibram X Kendi

Now that is a straw person argument. Barack Obama would be proud
 
Chartreuse Wombat said:
If someone is genuinely interested in learning more about critical Theory I recommend the book below. The authors dive deep into the original texts for Theory and provide a compelling critique. It is a longer version of the OTN critique above.

Amazon product ASIN 1634312023
I would go farther than OTN and state that if ASTRO intends to put this at the middle of their scholarly/political efforts then it will be a disaster for ASTRO and it's membership
Click to expand...
Astro should also go all in w/defund the police. Anything to distract.
 
Chartreuse Wombat said:
“the only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination.”

Ibram X Kendi

Now that is a straw person argument. Barack Obama would be proud
Click to expand...
I was with you until that concluding contortion
 
thecarbonionangle said:
Nice try but he actually said the silence of friends when you in need speaks volumes. He wrote in his letter, that he came to realize that the real enemy was the white moderate, who prefered order over justice who always said wait! except that time never came. Let that marinate!
Click to expand...
Marinate. Good verb. MLK was assassinated more than 50 years ago. Of course we still have work to do but life in 2021 is very different for Blacks than it was in 1968.
 
Lamount said:
I was with you until that concluding contortion
Click to expand...
Contortion? Let me help you. The operative word is only. You are with us or you are against us.

This argument has been used by demagogues on the left and right for centuries.

In reality life is complicated.
 
Chartreuse Wombat said:
Contortion? Let me help you. The operative word is only. You are with us or you are against us.

This argument has been used by demagogues on the left and right for centuries.

In reality life is complicated.
Click to expand...
I agreed with the point your were making in the body of your post. I was referring to “Barack Obama would be proud”. Why would he be proud?
 
Lamount said:
I agreed with the point your were making in the body of your post. I was referring to “Barack Obama would be proud”. Why would he be proud?
Click to expand...
My apologies. Always hard to discern intent in these short messages.

The reason for bringing president Obama into the mix is that he was/is a master rhetorician and would use the strawperson argument all of the time. It was very effective.

just a few examples:

Karl Rove Says Barack Obama's Speeches Address Positions Republicans Don't Hold

Why does he routinely ascribe to opponents views they don't espouse?
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com

www.nytimes.com

Some Obama Enemies Are Made Totally of Straw (Published 2009)

Democrats often complained about George W. Bush’s use of the straw man argument, but now President Obama regularly adopts the rhetorical device.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

Just to be clear politicians of all stripes use this
 
Chartreuse Wombat said:
My apologies. Always hard to discern intent in these short messages.

The reason for bringing president Obama into the mix is that he was/is a master rhetorician and would use the strawperson argument all of the time. It was very effective.

just a few examples:

Karl Rove Says Barack Obama's Speeches Address Positions Republicans Don't Hold

Why does he routinely ascribe to opponents views they don't espouse?
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com

www.nytimes.com

Some Obama Enemies Are Made Totally of Straw (Published 2009)

Democrats often complained about George W. Bush’s use of the straw man argument, but now President Obama regularly adopts the rhetorical device.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

Just to be clear politicians of all stripes use this
Click to expand...
Would agree that Obama joins the rank of the majority of politicians who make strawperson arguments... his 'mastery' may be attributed to his subtly, as current strawperson arguments are quite a bit more blunt: "teaching pornography in our schools", "erasing American history" etc...

Would also argue that Kendi is being more aggressive than merely using rhetoric to demonize his critics... he is saying past unfairness justifies present reciprocal unfairness-that two wrongs DO make a right. Regardless of whether such a proposal is moral (and I don't think it is), it is not practical, as one cannot expect a large group of people to accept punishment for merely being born a particular color -just as it was never reasonable for POC to have this burden.

I agree with many other liberals that systemic racism exists in many structures of American society (you may not agree). The best way to address these issues to unite people behind the notion of building a more equal future, rather than trying to admonish those who happen to born into a system that gives them more agency than POC.
 
Lamount said:
Would agree that Obama joins the rank of the majority of politicians who make strawperson arguments... his 'mastery' may be attributed to his subtly, as current strawperson arguments are quite a bit more blunt: "teaching pornography in our schools", "erasing American history" etc...

Would also argue that Kendi is being more aggressive than merely using rhetoric to demonize his critics... he is saying past unfairness justifies present reciprocal unfairness-that two wrongs DO make a right. Regardless of whether such a proposal is moral (and I don't think it is), it is not practical, as one cannot expect a large group of people to accept punishment for merely being born a particular color -just as it was never reasonable for POC to have this burden.

I agree with many other liberals that systemic racism exists in many structures of American society (you may not agree). The best way to address these issues to unite people behind the notion of building a more equal future, rather than trying to admonish those who happen to born into a system that gives them more agency than POC.
Click to expand...

I think this is a really fair and nuanced take. Would like to see more of this.

I was really disappointed that ASTRO had Kendi speak. It's a very hot button issue and Kendi is so far to one side I don't think it is helpful in moving the ball forward and it actually makes many people more skeptical of DEI issues instead of supportive. If your type of take was the viewpoint ASTRO took I think you'd get more people on board.
 
BobbyHeenan said:
I think this is a really fair and nuanced take. Would like to see more of this.

I was really disappointed that ASTRO had Kendi speak. It's a very hot button issue and Kendi is so far to one side I don't think it is helpful in moving the ball forward and it actually makes many people more skeptical of DEI issues instead of supportive. If your type of take was the viewpoint ASTRO took I think you'd get more people on board.
Click to expand...
I agree with you wholeheartedly. It's that any type of skepticism is not allowed.

As a serious question to @Lamount, how do you define systemic racism?
 
Lamount said:
Would agree that Obama joins the rank of the majority of politicians who make strawperson arguments... his 'mastery' may be attributed to his subtly, as current strawperson arguments are quite a bit more blunt: "teaching pornography in our schools", "erasing American history" etc...

Would also argue that Kendi is being more aggressive than merely using rhetoric to demonize his critics... he is saying past unfairness justifies present reciprocal unfairness-that two wrongs DO make a right. Regardless of whether such a proposal is moral (and I don't think it is), it is not practical, as one cannot expect a large group of people to accept punishment for merely being born a particular color -just as it was never reasonable for POC to have this burden.

I agree with many other liberals that systemic racism exists in many structures of American society (you may not agree). The best way to address these issues to unite people behind the notion of building a more equal future, rather than trying to admonish those who happen to born into a system that gives them more agency than POC.
Click to expand...
We are missing our Nelson Mandela.
 
BobbyHeenan said:
In fact at times it seems Kafka-esque. You questioning it is further evidence you are part of the problem.

It's almost non-falsifiable . Karl Popper not a fan.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, and I don’t trust any of the DEI, or DIE crew as I like to call them, to publish anything contrary to CRT. They firmly believe racism is everywhere (ie it’s systemic) so it’s just a matter of p-hacking to find it. There are some high profile cases of this of papers that went through peer review and linked below as a reminder. Dissent will not be allowed on any woke issue and ASTRO is no exception. OBEY!

www.jhunewsletter.com

Profs. criticized for “anti-LGBT” paper

For months, activists have criticized the University for failing to condemn a paper published by two Hopkins affiliates in The New Atlantis last August. The paper suggests that biology does not play a role in determining sexuality and gender identity and argues that children who identify as a...
www.jhunewsletter.com www.jhunewsletter.com

 
RadOncMegatron said:
I agree with you wholeheartedly. It's that any type of skepticism is not allowed.

As a serious question to @Lamount, how do you define systemic racism?
Click to expand...


When there is a pattern of people of different races in similar circumstances with similar goals receiving very different treatment.

For example, POC not being shown the same houses as whites on Long Island...

There are many examples in the criminal justice system, from patterns of arrest, to the laws themselves (e.g. the Crime Bill).

I, however, differ from many liberals in that I don't think ALL inequities are reflective of systemic racism.

From my perspective, the assertion that racism is at the foundation of every aspect of American society is equally absurd as the notion that systemic racism is absent in America.
 
Lamount said:
When there is a pattern of people of different races in similar circumstances with similar goals receiving very different treatment.

For example, POC not being shown the same houses as whites on Long Island...

There are many examples in the criminal justice system, from patterns of arrest, to the laws themselves (e.g. the Crime Bill).

I, however, differ from many liberals in that I don't think ALL inequities are reflective of systemic racism.

From my perspective, the assertion that racism is at the foundation of every aspect of American society is equally absurd as the notion that systemic racism is absent in America.
Click to expand...

I think that it does exist, but often hard to point out. I think from a conservative point of view, the article you point out with the housing is not an example of systemic racism, just flat out racism and criminal case of discrimination (unless it was actually in their policy to show POCs different houses). Does it even matter as long as we both agree something egregious and racist has happened?

Part of the discussion that makes it so hard is that the words and concepts we use are not the same, but I have a feeling you and I agree on a lot if we pointed out specific examples, but only disagree on the labels for much of this stuff. The dialogue, unfortunately, is missing, so appreciate the back and forth.
 
Lamount said:
From my perspective, the assertion that racism is at the foundation of every aspect of American society is equally absurd as the notion that systemic racism is absent in America.
Click to expand...


another false equivalency.

instead of focusing on a straw man, maybe just focus on the problem?
 
To bring this full circle it's hard for me to look at these clean randomized trials that isolate variables and give us an answer as to what is the "best" approach.

instead, in general the social sciences have all these "studies" and it's impossible to isolate known and unknown variables and tease out cause/effect and even further tease out best practice solutions. So it's tough to see how some people are so dogmatic that their lens through which to view the discrepancy is 100% right. It's just so hard to know.
 
RadOncMegatron said:
I think that it does exist, but often hard to point out. I think from a conservative point of view, the article you point out with the housing is not an example of systemic racism, just flat out racism and criminal case of discrimination (unless it was actually in their policy to show POCs different houses). Does it even matter as long as we both agree something egregious and racist has happened?

Part of the discussion that makes it so hard is that the words and concepts we use are not the same, but I have a feeling you and I agree on a lot if we pointed out specific examples, but only disagree on the labels for much of this stuff. The dialogue, unfortunately, is missing, so appreciate the back and forth.
Click to expand...
I think part of the issue with naysayers of systemic racism is the fact that it is no longer codified explicitly. At the same time, I would argue that the voting districts in the South are examples of systemic racism, most egregiously repped by recent redistricting in NC, which is essentially a purple state. The likely breakdown of congressional representatives will be 10-11 to 3-4 in favor of republicans. 10% of the states black population identifies as Republican. As always, there are any number of reasons to say this is the way the party map was drawn, as in, not due to race. Ultimately, though, it manifests as black voters not really having a voice in NC. It's squishy perhaps to argue this is an example, but having grown up in the South, it's really not hard for me to believe it is.
 
Ray D. Ayshun said:
I think part of the issue with naysayers of systemic racism is the fact that it is no longer codified explicitly. At the same time, I would argue that the voting districts in the South are examples of systemic racism, most egregiously repped by recent redistricting in NC, which is essentially a purple state. The likely breakdown of congressional representatives will be 10-11 to 3-4 in favor of republicans. 10% of the states black population identifies as Republican. As always, there are any number of reasons to say this is the way the party map was drawn, as in, not due to race. Ultimately, though, it manifests as black voters not really having a voice in NC. It's squishy perhaps to argue this is an example, but having grown up in the South, it's really not hard for me to believe it is.
Click to expand...
Not just NC, but basically the entire south has ridiculous disctricts which were consistently struck down before SCOTUS struck down preclearance. i was reading about the proposed hellpit TX redistricring which is totally egregious.
 
Ray D. Ayshun said:
I think part of the issue with naysayers of systemic racism is the fact that it is no longer codified explicitly. At the same time, I would argue that the voting districts in the South are examples of systemic racism, most egregiously repped by recent redistricting in NC, which is essentially a purple state. The likely breakdown of congressional representatives will be 10-11 to 3-4 in favor of republicans. 10% of the states black population identifies as Republican. As always, there are any number of reasons to say this is the way the party map was drawn, as in, not due to race. Ultimately, though, it manifests as black voters not really having a voice in NC. It's squishy perhaps to argue this is an example, but having grown up in the South, it's really not hard for me to believe it is.
Click to expand...

That is I think a systemic problem, but as you may have noted it probably is more about getting votes than racism. Although, when push comes to shove, this can be an example of systemic racism as traditionally defined as in a law or rule (not individuals or companies being overtly racist) that systematically disenfranchises a certain race. The other one that is usually shown to be an example of systemic racism are the war against drugs policies.
 
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