De-Clawing

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Catch91

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I was on another open debate board where there was a rather hot topic about this subject, so I thought it would obviously be a good one to have here.

De-Clawing Cats? Right, wrong? Situational?

I won't say my opinions yet. I'll just let the topic go.

So have at it!
 
We declaw at the clinic where I work. We will not declaw a cat that spends any time outside. We only do front declaws, and only then if its the difference between the cat being homed and the cat being euthanized.
 
I would do front declaws if its an indoor only cat -- which is what the clinic I work at does. Its supremely less messy now as we have a laser 🙂 yay for cauterization!

Mostly because if I have a cat, I don't want it to have its front claws -- several non-declawed cats have left some major marks (on accident, obvi) just by my playing with them.

Personal preference though.
 
It's the removal of an entire toe segment (including bone) for our "comfort" or "preference". Many cats who are declawed experience pain walking, arthritis at an early age, joint/tendon/ligament problems, or pain when scratching in the litter box. Infections are not at all uncommon post-surgery.

The problems that people have mentioned (scratching furniture, clawing humans or other animals) are training issues. Cats can be taught to scratch only on appropriate surfaces if their owners provide them.

In my opinion, it is a drastic and unfair procedure that humans have invented only because they are lazy and don't want to train a cat. If you don't want to be scratched or own an animal with claws...don't own a cat! It's very simple. But to amputate a portion of the cat's toe because you don't feel like having a scratch or two on furniture is pretty ridiculous.
 
It's the removal of an entire toe segment (including bone) for our "comfort" or "preference". Many cats who are declawed experience pain walking, arthritis at an early age, joint/tendon/ligament problems, or pain when scratching in the litter box. Infections are not at all uncommon post-surgery.

In all of our cat cases, I've never seen this. Not even the infections, because we keep the cats for two days, so they are on newspaper bedding. We have probably 1000 + cat clients.

Really, it doesn't seem that different than docking a tail. While I've never seen that done, and if I'm incorrect, let me know -- but isn't it the same theory? Removing bone and cartilage?

There will always be people who will want this procedure done. I'd rather do it myself than have them go to another clinic (once I start practicing ... in four years).
 
Not that I'm totally pro-tail docking, but that's done at a MUCH younger age. The puppies are barely coherent, and the nerve endings on the end of the tail are not even fully formed. Again, not that I think that makes it a good idea, but it's not as though they're used to using their tails and suddenly they get taken away. The tail is also small at that age and heals very quickly. There's a huge difference between removing a tail at 2-5 days of age and removing ten fully functional toe ends when a kitten is 8 weeks old. In addition, docking is often done by banding, which is quite different from declawing surgery.
 
P.S. If I were going to be a clinician, and if I were to do surgery, and if I were to agree to offer declawing (which I almost definitely wouldn't) I would strongly counsel people against it, give my reasons and the research, and explain alternatives to it. Why can't people just use Soft Paws??
 
:corny: This thread is gonna get interesting...

If I were in private practice, and it was euthanasia or declaw the cat, I would do it. There are many precautions that can be taken to avoid post op pain, and infection.
 
We had a lunch meeting about onychectomys on Thursday, I believe. It was a vet who does do them. She does both the scalpel method and the laser method. She only does front paws. She said she does them because she knows she can do them better and will give better pain control than other doctors.

When I get out, I know I will give adequate pain control (read: multimodal), but I will only perform them if I can do it well enough to have a high probability of not having complications. She said the complication rate (not hers, but doctors in general) was up to 50%!!!

Anyway, she showed a couple of studies using force plates at certain intervals after surgery, which showed that cats will resume walking with the same amount of force within a couple of months of surgery, I don't remember the exact dates. She said once those studies were done, she had a lot more confidence that she wasn't doing permanent damage to the cats.
 
It was a vet who does do them. She does both the scalpel method and the laser method. She only does front paws. She said she does them because she knows she can do them better and will give better pain control than other doctors.

This was essentially my point. I would rather do than have them go other places. Also -- along with keeping them longer to avoid immediate complications, the surgery consent form states that the cost of pain meds are included in the cost of surgery, and so they cannot be declined.

I understand the later time-point (thank you for clarifying though). We try to do declaws when we do spay/neuter, so i suppose that's 8 weeks/2 pounds.

This IS going to get interesting ...
 
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Nah I'm not here to have a major debate. It seems like most of us agree that declawing isn't ideal(?) Would you advise your clients of alternatives to declawing?
 
Yup, I would, I feel that any owner has the responsibility to know all of their options when deciding upon a treatment option. But like I said, as I would declaw a cat if I had one, I'm not exactly going to turn them down.

I agree, its not ideal, and they do have to go through pain, so I'll make them as comfortable as possible.





But enough about me ... what do other people think??
 
I think in a perfect world we would not declaw cats, but with sooo many unwanted pets around if a cat can have a good home and be declawed, it's better than no home at all.
I remember when I was in middle school we got two kittens. They were scratching everything still by 3 years old and my parents wanted to declaw them. I was completely against it but my parents said we couldn't keep them if they didn't get declawed.
So they are now declawed and are still very happy cats!
 
If you don't want to be scratched or own an animal with claws...don't own a cat!

I completely agree. 👍 I don't agree with declawing in any situation. If you can't handle the whole animal, then don't get it.

That's my opinion and I'm not going to debate it. So you can put the popcorn down. 😀
 
We declaw at the clinic where I work. We will not declaw a cat that spends any time outside. We only do front declaws, and only then if its the difference between the cat being homed and the cat being euthanized.

That's what we do where I'm at too.

Interestingly enough, this was an essay topic at WSU for the interview. The prompt was that declawing was made illegal in some part of California (I forget which part), as a future vet what do you think? Do you support this law?

I said no, since people with destructive cats will be faced with a tough choice: put up with continual destruction to personal property, or give up the cat. If given up, the cat may be euthanized at the shelter. Getting declawed could have saved the cat's life...etc, etc...
 
I think in a perfect world we would not declaw cats, but with sooo many unwanted pets around if a cat can have a good home and be declawed, it's better than no home at all.

QFT! I completely agree with this.
 
I definitely think declawing depends on the situation. When it comes to destructive cats, it almost always seems to be declaw or shelter/euthanasia. Between the two, I think we can all agree that declawing is the preferable choice. Also, at my clinic, we've had a few cats that have come in to be declawed because one of their owners was on blood thinners. In such a case, its not only the cat that should be considered, but the owner as well. I probably wouldn't hesitate to declaw a cat if the owner was on blood thinners or was a hemophiliac.

However, in any other cases where the cat was not at risk of losing a home, I doubt I would perform the procedure.
 
Since I started the thread, I'll just put in my two cents.

De-clawing an outdoor cat is cruel, plain and simple. Outdoor cats need their claws for defense, and, in the case of a completely outdoor cat, for catching food. It makes me sick when people de-claw their cats and then stick them outside with no way of fending for themselves.

On the other hand...
If you have it done as a kitten, and if the cat will remain strictly an indoor animal, I have no problem with it. In fact, I support it. That being said, I should probably add that I see no reason to remove the back claws, only the front. They cannot climb with their back claws only, so I see no reason to remove them. The whole cat-baby/children thing is not even an argument. If you have children and are worried that a cat with claws may scratch them, don't get a cat. If you already have a cat and don't want the same situation to arise, don't have children. Or, it's quite simple, have your cat de-clawed. That being said, the procedure is much harder on an older cat, which is why it should be done while they are kittens.

I have had four indoor cats in my life, and three presently, that were de-clawed. Though, like I said earlier, they were only de-clawed in the front paws. None of them had any sort of reaction to it, and have been absolutely fine. In fact, my kitten who was just recently de-clawed, came home and raced, leaped, and jumped around like normal. It didn't even phase him. And I know it was not a fluke because I have had four cats in the past, and I work at a veterinary clinic where the procedure is performed on a regular basis. I see the cats in recovery and they are absolutely fine. I know it is possible, but I have never seen a cat have complications from a de-clawing. And, like said, if it's the difference between that and having a cat be abandoned, it's obviously the lesser of the two evils.

It has been said that people who have their cats de-clawed are lazy, selfish, etc. because they don't want themselves or their furniture to be scratched, but I strongly disagree with that. For some people that may be the case, but that's not true for me. I don't mind getting scratched by a cat...really, I don't. I love cats, and that's part of what comes with the animal. Our reason for de-clawing is, yes, so they don't rip apart the house (that cannot be 100% corrected with training!), and because they simply don't need their claws to live a domestic life indoors. Like I said before, do I think it's cruel to deprive an animal of it's only means of catching food and surviving outside? Absolutely. But for an animal that is going to live strictly indoors, I don't see a problem with it.

Don't flame! That's just my two cents on the situation.


 
I share the popular viewpoint of this thread that it's not a desirable situation, but it beats going to the shelter, being thrown outside, or being put to sleep. If it keeps the cat indoors in a home that feeds and shelters it, and makes the cat easier to live with, then I'm okay with it. Of course you try to give the owners alternatives, such as Soft Paws or training, but not all cats can be trained and Soft Paws are hard to put on for some people.

Good pain control and after surgery care are important. The vet that I worked with uses a lidocaine block as well as general treatment with NSAIDs or other pain relief medication. I also don't think it matters between the laser and scalpel techniques in general. It does matter which one the surgeon is more skilled performing. Someone who isn't very good with laser declaws is going to do a better job with a scalpel and vice versa.
 
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we require that the laser is used for declaws at our clinic and it is an amazing difference. of course we only declaw younger cats and only the front paws, and use multimodal pain management. it would be nice to have the luxury of being idealistic and refusing the surgery outright, but living in a tiny community, owners are highly likely to euthanize as there isn't another vet around to perform surgery if they are totally set on it. I would never declaw a cat of my own but we can at least ensure that the surgery is done in a humane way with lots of pain management!
 
Why hasn't anyone besides me mentioned Soft Paws? Do you think there is a reason that people declaw when a safe alternative like this is available? My observation is that VERY few cats are able to/try to remove these.
 
Why hasn't anyone besides me mentioned Soft Paws? Do you think there is a reason that people declaw when a safe alternative like this is available? My observation is that VERY few cats are able to/try to remove these.

My experience with soft paws is that they are a pain in the butt. My nice cat will barely let me play with his toes and the mean one... forget about it. Soft Paws are really nice in theory, but I find that they are much harder to apply in practice. That being said, they work wonders in many situations, but they're still not ideal.
 
Why hasn't anyone besides me mentioned Soft Paws? Do you think there is a reason that people declaw when a safe alternative like this is available? My observation is that VERY few cats are able to/try to remove these.

Of course you try to give the owners alternatives, such as Soft Paws or training, but not all cats can be trained and Soft Paws are hard to put on for some people.

banditalfi said the same thing basically. Some people and some cats are just not compatible with putting the things on. I've also seen cats that were extremely stressed out by being held down for the application, and you'd be doing this to them a lot of times throughout the rest of their lives. I'd say that the vast majority of declawed cats don't have litter aversion, biting or fear problems and sometimes it's just a better solution. As I said before, if the surgery is done correctly and they're properly managed afterwards, I just think it's a choice that needs to be made with informed consent between an owner and a veterinarian.
 
I see things like resistance to being held as training issues. I will grant that there are a small number of cats who, due to past issues (abuse, etc) cannot be trained to be tolerant in a reasonable way. I will also grant that a few of these cats probably also cannot be trained not to scratch furniture. And a very tiny percentage of THOSE will be owned by people who won't tolerate scratching of furniture. But the number of cats who actually meet *all three* of those conditions is TINY. I saw tons of healthy, tolerant, sweet cats come through our clinic for declawing, as if it were just something that everyone automatically does to their cats. To me that seems like it is something done out of convenience, rather than as a last resort. I liken it to debarking a dog. In fact, now that I think of it, it's a great analogy. There are a tiny number of dogs for whom debarking might be the best choice, but they are very rare. Why isn't declawing viewed the same way?

It is really not difficult to train 99% of cats to hold still while being held for five minutes or so. I think that people prefer to take the easy route *for them*, even if it's not the healthiest choice for their cat.
 
Our current vets will do declaws on cats under 6 months and 6 pounds, front only, no exceptions to the 6-6 rule, with Buprenex and Metacam for pain. In 4 months we've only had one client take them up on it. Our former vet had the declaw surgery's price in the computer listed at: "$1,000,000 DR WONT DO" lol. Personally I will push Soft Paws, Feliway, Sticky Paws tape for furniture/carpet before ever saying one good word about declawing. Many vets will apply Soft Paws for people if they can't do it at home. I will never have declawing done on my cats. A good amount of declawed cats we see at our clinic are major biters and one of my cats is already nasty enough that I don't want to give her any more incentive to bite me. 😉

As to the person who said they can't climb without front claws -- my parents found a stray cat with her fronts declawed who could still climb trees and catch lizards, so that doesn't always hold. Sometimes the cat is just that determined!

Owner has a health condition? Yes, I would declaw for that reason. Owner whines that they scratch up the couch and hasn't even attempted behavior modification? No way. Go find a different vet to do it if it means that much to you. Tail docks and ear crops are even more ridiculous, because at least with the scratching that's something that's actually annoying... as opposed to healthy tails and ears that are causing no problems for anyone and are only being removed to conform to a twisted breed standard. Other countries have figured out there's no reason to chop a tail for looks, and we ought to figure it out as well.
 
And as an aside, I owned 2 declawed cats (declawed 16 and 20 years ago, before we realized that it was a bad idea). Both were fine. One hunted, killed birds, mice, voles, climbed trees, etc. No problems for them. But I still would never recommend it, knowing what I know now.
 
CanadianGolden:

There's a catch-22 in there about declawing being used as such a last resort. It's basically that the younger the cat is, the better the surgery goes, less chances of complication, shorter heal time, etc. The other thing is that people often would prefer to do it when the cat is being neutered so that they don't have to go under anesthesia multiple times, and most people get their cats neutered at a young age. Let me go on record as saying my cat is not declawed. She was indoor/outdoor for the beginning of her life and lets me trim her nails without much issue other than some grumbling. I do own a debarked dog - he was debarked by the rescue before I adopted him because he is a LGD with high protective drive (ie he barks when the wind changes direction), but has bad hips and a bad back so cannot be used as an acceptable working dog. Even with having been debarked, it took them two years to find him a home (me). He barks right through citronella and shock collars and knows "speak" and "stop" but just doesn't correlate his protective barking to those commands for whatever reason. Being debarked, he's now free to bark until his head falls off without causing a major annoyance to the neighbors. I don't think he even realizes that his bark sounds different, to be honest.

As far as cats go, I don't know how much you've worked with them, but I don't think it's as cut and dry with "behavior issues" as it is with dogs. Cats are a different type of animal. Most of them don't give a flying leap what you want them to do, or about pleasing you. You'll have the odd cat who is easily trainable, but in my experience working in a cat colony with hundreds of cats this is an exception, not the rule. This is due to differences in feline social structure as I'm sure you're aware. For the record, this is why I prefer dogs to cats. 😉
 
Do you think there is a reason that people declaw when a safe alternative like this is available?

My guess would be ignorance: Declawing is just "what you do" when you get a cat, and people just don't give it another thought... and usually don't even know what the procedure entails. That's what I've run into, at least. The short version of my opinion: If you can't train or live with a fully-clawed cat (medical reasons notwithstanding), you should clip its nails or use Soft Paws if you can, consider adopting one that's already been declawed, etc... or just don't own a cat. They're not for everyone.

With that said... while there are some very good points being thrown out (such as it being done safely and without pain at a young age for reasons beyond the owner's convenience), I'm still with PiddlingFish on this. I've never agreed with it and will never recommend it, let alone perform the surgery, should I end up working with domestics.
 
athenaparthenos,

As I understand it, there are practical reasons for cropping ears and docking tails on working dogs (how do you think the practice got started in the first place). I believe cropping ears was done to enhance the dog's ability to locate a sound, while their tails were docked to prevent injury out in the field. I don't have a problem with working dogs having docked tails and cropped ears. However, I most definitely agree that so-called breed standards are archaic and should be revised. I was thrilled to learn that you can't show dogs with cropped ears in Germany, among other nations. I think any elective surgery (other than spaying and neutering) is never a good thing. There's nothing I like better than a Dobermann with natural ears. 🙂
 
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I am against declawing 99% of the time. However, when it comes down to certain situations I think it may be warranted.

If someone comes in and says they're going to either turn the cat over the the pound unless I declaw, and either have tried or refuse to try other methods, I would rather declaw the cat than have it sent to a shelter and PTS

Another special situation is one like my boyfriend's parents' cat. They tried EVERYTHING with her, soft paws (she would rip them off, amazingly) trimming nails (she would fight them tooth and nail, exceuse the pun), behaviorists consults, etc. It was getting to the point that they were afraid for their other older cats safety, because the young one would play very rough and scratch the older one on a regular basis (she has aggression issues that they were working on behaviorally). They even looked at rehoming, but no one wanted her. They finally resorted to getting the younger one declawed, and continued working on behavior. It has turned out well, actually.
 
I said no, since people with destructive cats will be faced with a tough choice: put up with continual destruction to personal property, or give up the cat.

Or buy and apply soft paws (/have your vet apply them if you can't), or trim your cat's toenails, or train your cat to scratch only certain things in your house.

Incidentally, I feel many people fail to give their cats appropriate scratching options: tall, anchored scratching posts in prime locations made of your cat's preferred scratching substance (carpet, sisal, cardboard, etc.) I often see people with dinky little scratching posts that tip over when the cat tries to use them. And then they never bother to train the cat - they just stick the post out there and expect the cat to learn to use it magically.

And edited because I scrolled down and saw the soft paw discussion: It's true that some cats won't take to them and absolutely hate them. I've personally applied them to dozens of shelter cats of all different temperaments. Most of the cats I've put them on have been fine. And it's not *that* unusual to find a cat who is trainable. It's not as easy as with dogs, but it's not like it's one in a million, either. It is a bit unusual, however, to find an owner willing to put in the time and energy to train their kitty.
 
Why hasn't anyone besides me mentioned Soft Paws? Do you think there is a reason that people declaw when a safe alternative like this is available? My observation is that VERY few cats are able to/try to remove these.


I agree. I think that too many people are unaware of how inhumane it is to declaw an animal or dock its tail, especially since docking is more for aesthetics than anything.

Cats don't just need claws for defense!!! They use them to climb, to stretch their muscles, and to deposit scent (for communication). These are important aspects of their behavior and physiology that we should not overlook.

There are plenty of negative ramifications of declawing. Many cats become more nippy (a reason some get abandoned and are considered un-adoptable by many people). Others do have issues with sensitivity of their paws. And, the bottom line, is that we are physically deforming and crippling a magnificent animal.

IMO, too many people are unaware of their options and are too selfish to try to find a compromise somewhere in the middle.

Declawing should only be a real last resort--for cats that pose a threat to their own or others' health. And how representative is that? It's a rarity, in my experience. People who cannot tolerate a tiny bit of scratching on their furniture (which will happen with the back claws, anyways, if the cat jumps from the furniture to the floor or elsewhere) really should not have a cat, as someone said before!!

Here is a fact sheet from one of the organizations, PAWS, that I work with. I know they would not mind if I reposted it here. At both shelters where I do adoptions, admitting that one will declaw a cat is grounds for declining that person as an adopter (for an undeclawed cat). We do invite those individuals who insist on having a declawed cat to adopt a cat that has already been declawed and surrendered. With every adoption we ask individuals to sign a contract acknowledging that they are aware of the organization's policy and agree to abide by it.

PAWS said:
The Problems With Declawing

For many cat owners, their pet's natural impulse to scratch can become a problem, and declawing may seem a logical solution. However, declawing creates more problems than it solves.

What exactly happens when a cat is declawed? Veterinarian Dr. Paul Rowan outlines the most common procedure used to remove claws:

The cat is given a general anesthetic.
The fur around the feet is clipped.
A tourniquet is placed around the leg.
The nails are rinsed with alcohol.
The amputation of the nail is accomplished with a guillotine nail cutter, which cuts across the first joint of the toe and may also involve the foot pad.
The toes are then bandaged tightly to prevent hemorrhage.
The bandage is removed two to three days post-operatively.
Immediate physical complications can include:
An adverse reaction to the general anesthetic, and this can include death.
If bandages are wrapped too tightly, the foot may become gangrenous and necessitate amputation of the leg.
When bandages are removed, many cats begin to hemorrhage and require rebandaging.
Later physical complications can include:
In instances in which the entire nail bed was not removed, one or more claws can grow back misshapen and useless.
Because their nails are brittle, and because the surgical nail cutter may have been dull, many cats experience shattered bones in their feet which can become seriously infected. This can be corrected only with a second general anesthetic and surgical procedure.
Declawing is a painful procedure that has long-lasting effects on cats. Once their claws have been removed, they can no longer perform their natural stretching and kneading rituals. They become weaker as they age and may experience debilitating arthritis in their backs and shoulders.

Furthermore, cats without claws have lost their first line of defense, and because of this, they live in a constant state of stress. Less able to protect themselves, they cannot fight off other animals, or escape quickly from a dangerous situation. They may also become biters because they no longer can use their claws as a warning. Groomers, veterinarians, and people who care for declawed cats in shelters find many of them to be nervous, irritable, and difficult to handle.

Finally, declawed cats often stop using their litterboxes. Some apparently associate the pain they feel in their paws when trying to cover their waste with the litterbox itself. They seek a less painful place for elimination, such as the carpet or bathtub or even the bed or piles of laundry. Even though there are effective ways to modify a cat's litterbox behavior, it is a particularly difficult challenge because a declawed cat's aversion results from pain.

The movement around the world is toward prohibitions of declawing. I think it is only a matter of time that we will begin to see more cities, counties and states heading in this direction, as well. Wanna know who has outlawed it? Here's the latest from Wikipedia. I couldn't remember all of them off the top of my head. I think there might be more places even.

Wikipedia said:
Declawing practices

Declawing is uncommon outside North America, and laws governing its practice vary. Many European countries prohibit or significantly restrict the practice, as do parts of Australia, Brazil, Israel, New Zealand, Japan and Turkey. The list below gives an overview of the situation in different parts of the world.

Australia

In Australia, legislation concerning animal welfare is enacted at the state level and is highly inconsistent. There are ongoing efforts to develop a National Animal Welfare Act; in its current state, the bill would prohibit the declawing of cats except for medical reasons. However, some pro-wildlife campaigners advocate declawing (and possibly defanging) to protect native wildlife from pet cats.

Europe

In many European countries the practice is forbidden under the terms of the European Convention for the Protection of Pet Animals[4] , unless there is a medical indication for the procedure, or a veterinarian considers it beneficial to the animal.

Some European countries go further, such as Finland, the Netherlands, Germany and Switzerland[5], where declawing cats for non-medical reasons is always illegal under their laws against cruelty to animals.

United Kingdom

In the United Kingdom, declawing was outlawed by the Animal Welfare Act 2006, which explicitly prohibited "interference with the sensitive tissues or bone structure of the animal, otherwise than for the purposes of its medical treatment".[6]
Even before the 2006 Act, however, declawing was extremely uncommon, to the extent that most people had never seen a declawed cat. The procedure was considered cruel by almost all British vets, who refused to perform it except on medical grounds. The Guide to Professional Conduct of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons stated that declawing was "only acceptable where, in the opinion of the veterinary surgeon, injury to the animal is likely to occur during normal activity. It is not acceptable if carried out for the convenience of the owner ... the removal of claws, particularly those which are weight-bearing, to preclude damage to furnishings is not acceptable."[7]

United States

Declawing is legal in most US jurisdictions.
Declawing was outlawed in West Hollywood, California, in 2003, the first such ban is the US.[8]. The California Veterinary Medical Association challenged the law in court[9], leading to a court ruling that temporarily suspended the law. In June 2007, the California appeals court overturned the 2006 ruling, thus reinstating the law banning declawing in West Hollywood.[10]. The CVMA's court challenge held that West Hollywood had overstepped its municipal authority by enacting an ordinance that infringed on licensed professionals’ state-granted rights. It did not address declawing as an animal welfare issue.
In 2004, California became the first state in the USA to enact a statewide ban on the declawing of wild and exotic cats.
In 2006, the United States Department of Agriculture enacted a ban on declawing of all wild and exotic animals held by USDA-licensed owners.[11]
In April 2007, the city of Norfolk, Virginia outlawed declawing.[12]
 
Tail docking was also done in Australia to avoid the tax that required owners to pay for every dog that had a tail. That doesn't sound at all practical for the dog to me. And what does a Rottie or a Boxer need a docked tail for as a pet?
 
Like many others said in an ideal world we wouldnt have to declaw but unfortunately its not ideal. I see all the anti-declaw people saying things like owners need to train their cats better if they dont want them to scratch around the house and if they wont take the time to train they shouldnt get a cat. I would say that through my experience, 9 out of 10 cat owners (who dont have dogs) say the reason they are "cat people" over "dog people" is because cats are independent. All these people get cats precisely because they dont have to do things like walk them, play with them, and train them. This is quite a large population of cat owners so if were going to tell all of them they shouldnt own cats them we better starting amping up our supplies of Euthanasia because there will be a lot of homeless cats.
 
I completely agree. 👍 I don't agree with declawing in any situation. If you can't handle the whole animal, then don't get it.

That's my opinion and I'm not going to debate it. So you can put the popcorn down. 😀

AGREED, you don't want a cat with claws, then adopt one that is already declawed. I bet a lot of the people here who are for declawing work in a practice where they do it regularly. Bottom line is that it is a money maker and vets talk themselves into thinking it is the best for the cat or else its going to get euthanized or some crap like that. I get really sick of the fallacies involved in the logic that people use to justify these types of things. "If I don't do it, someone less skilled will do it and cause complications" "If I don't do it, than they're going to be left on the streat to die" :bullcrap:I have worked at a busy shelter and have NEVER seen a cat surrendered because a vet refused to declaw it. I also work at an emergency service at the Uni's teaching hospital and get a lot of calls about complications due to their cat's recent declaw. And obviously, there are exceptions to every rule.
 
bakaduin,

In my experience, cats are not that much more independent than dogs; in fact, one of my cats is FAR more demanding in terms of attention than either of my dogs. But, in any case, cats are still living, breathing creatures that require both physical and mental stimulation. The notion that cats don't need to be played with or trained is not only ignorant, it leads to bored cats--and bored cats do things like scratch the furniture, which only exacerbates the problem. If you want a pet that you don't have to walk, play with, or train... get a fish.

Maybe my cats were just easy to train, but all it's taken is a "NO!" when they scratch on something they're not supposed to--if you (or someone in your family) can't take the time to do that, then you should reconsider bringing one into your life.

Also, to put the situation a little differently: If your puppy chews up the furniture... do you pull all his teeth, or do you give him a chew toy and try to modify the behavior?
 
bakaduin,

In my experience, cats are not that much more independent than dogs; in fact, one of my cats is FAR more demanding in terms of attention than either of my dogs. But, in any case, cats are still living, breathing creatures that require both physical and mental stimulation. The notion that cats don't need to be played with or trained is not only ignorant, it leads to bored cats--and bored cats do things like scratch the furniture, which only exacerbates the problem. If you want a pet that you don't have to walk, play with, or train... get a fish.

Maybe my cats were just easy to train, but all it's taken is a "NO!" when they scratch on something they're not supposed to--if you (or someone in your family) can't take the time to do that, then you should reconsider bringing one into your life.

Also, to put the situation a little differently: If your puppy chews up the furniture... do you pull all his teeth, or do you give him a chew toy and try to modify the behavior?


Cats are too smart sometimes though. Personally, my cats have never wanted for toys or attention. But they do like to scratch the carpet despite the fact they know its wrong. All you have to do is look at them and they'll slink away, but five seconds later they are scratching again in another room. They also have access to various toys for scratching, they just don't like them or use them. I can see how someone with cats like that would want them declawed to stop the destruction of their properties.

My personal opinions is that with the advent of laser declaws, i would do declaws. In that talk pressmom posted about, there is no binding and the practice has changed dramatically. Cats declawed this way are usually up and about that day and not tender like others. Scalpel declaws are also not as bad as nail clipper declaws. The reason there are so many complications arises usually from using the nail clippers as they tend to leave parts of the bone in. Ideally, P3 (the third bone of the digit) will be completely removed.

I think you almost have to be naive to think that all cats are trainable and that people that can't handle clawing shouldn't have animals. Whether or not you feel that way, society in general doesn't. And cats are independent - not because people don't play with them or the like but because they simply don't depend on people as much. Their behavior reflects that people are nice to have around, but not really necessary (though there will always be exceptions).
 
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99.9% of animals are trainable. The key is determining what motivates them. Dogs are easy to motivate. Cats are less easy (although mine are obsessed with food). Maybe if people didn't free feed and allow their cats to get fat and thus not care about food (since it's there all the time) we would see an increase in cat trainability? I have easily trained mine to come when called, allow me to trim their nails with no resistance, and to stay off the counter when I am making their food. I think most people are lazy and don't care enough to train their animals.
 
99.9% of animals are trainable. The key is determining what motivates them. Dogs are easy to motivate. Cats are less easy (although mine are obsessed with food). Maybe if people didn't free feed and allow their cats to get fat and thus not care about food (since it's there all the time) we would see an increase in cat trainability? I have easily trained mine to come when called, allow me to trim their nails with no resistance, and to stay off the counter when I am making their food. I think most people are lazy and don't care enough to train their animals.

Like I said, there are always exceptions. And free feeding isn't the only reason cats can be hard to train.
 
:laugh: Never a problem I've had with mine!

Mine tend to be sneaky about things because they figure if we can't see them doing something they shouldn't do that they can get away with it. I could regale you with stories of my cats figuring things out that they shouldn't be able to. Not to mention the ingenuity of some of the cats I have seen in clinics.
 
I think you almost have to be naive to think that all cats are trainable and that people that can't handle clawing shouldn't have animals. Whether or not you feel that way, society in general doesn't.

I'd agree with that. Unfortunately, some people just aren't willing to go the extra step to work on behavior modification, too vain to put a nice scratching post up (have gotten this reason a few times at the clinic, they think the posts are ugly), and reject the idea of soft paws. They're just pissed off that their $1,500+ couch is now ruined and they want a permanent fix.

Out there is still the mentality that animals are disposable creatures - if you don't like it, get rid of it. If you don't think so, just look at how many animals are abandoned and neglected. Not everyone cares as much about animals as we do.....

It would be fantastic if each owner fully understood the consequences of having a pet and 100% of owners would be willing to go the extra mile for their animal (assuming the animal *could* stop being destructive). But that is not the case, and we end up with declawing cats, etc....
 
99.9% of animals are trainable.

96.4% of statistics are made up on the spot. 🙄

Just so this post is something other than pure snark, I disagree with you, based on my fairly extensive experience with cats. Since you don't seem to actually respond to any arguments against yours, there's no point in explaining anymore. I'm not going into clinical private practice either, but if I were I would declaw cats with informed consent.

Incidentally, as a show person, how do you feel about ear cropping? I saw that you mentioned docking, but cropping is not done so early.
 
Cats are too smart sometimes though. Personally, my cats have never wanted for toys or attention. But they do like to scratch the carpet despite the fact they know its wrong. All you have to do is look at them and they'll slink away, but five seconds later they are scratching again in another room. They also have access to various toys for scratching, they just don't like them or use them. I can see how someone with cats like that would want them declawed to stop the destruction of their properties.

My personal opinions is that with the advent of laser declaws, i would do declaws. In that talk pressmom posted about, there is no binding and the practice has changed dramatically. Cats declawed this way are usually up and about that day and not tender like others. Scalpel declaws are also not as bad as nail clipper declaws. The reason there are so many complications arises usually from using the nail clippers as they tend to leave parts of the bone in. Ideally, P3 (the third bone of the digit) will be completely removed.

I think you almost have to be naive to think that all cats are trainable and that people that can't handle clawing shouldn't have animals. Whether or not you feel that way, society in general doesn't. And cats are independent - not because people don't play with them or the like but because they simply don't depend on people as much. Their behavior reflects that people are nice to have around, but not really necessary (though there will always be exceptions).

I was responding to bakaduin's statement of "All these people get cats precisely because they don't have to do things like walk them, play with them, and train them" because I thought the reasoning was ignorant.

In any case, I'm well aware that some animals are harder to train than others (but would argue that it's not always impossible) and that there are 'good' ways to declaw a cat. I can also see why people would want to declaw their cats--and, believe it or not, I fully respect the opinion that declawing is an option. I just don't agree with it, and that's not going to change 😳
 
As for the original question - situational.

It is not something I would have done to my own cats. I do not agree that it is a sort of rite of passage for cats - get a cat, have it declawed right away (side note, it is UNBELIEVABLE how many people have this mindset!) I will not declaw indoor/outdoor or outdoor only cats. I will not do back declaws. However, when I am practicing I will do front declaws. I probably won't do tendonectomies, though - people tend to not trim the cat's claws, they get stuck in the paw pads, ouch.
 
Personally I have no problem with declawing cats, as long as the surgery is done properly and proper pain control is used. That is just my opinion. I feel that owners need to be informed about risks and complications and if they still want the surgery then I am fine with that. I figure if the owner wants the cat declawed then they will get it done somewhere else if I refuse, so I might as well do it.
 
96.4% of statistics are made up on the spot. 🙄

Just so this post is something other than pure snark, I disagree with you, based on my fairly extensive experience with cats. Since you don't seem to actually respond to any arguments against yours, there's no point in explaining anymore. I'm not going into clinical private practice either, but if I were I would declaw cats with informed consent.

Incidentally, as a show person, how do you feel about ear cropping? I saw that you mentioned docking, but cropping is not done so early.

What ARE the arguments against mine? I agree that in some rare cases (person owns a cat, person develops condition that makes scratching very dangerous--immune system deficiency, maybe) declawing could be warranted. But my observation of a LOT of people and a lot of cats is that a) cats and trainable and b) most people are lazy. Maybe two people at the clinic I worked at brought in well trained dogs. If they're too lazy/busy/whatever to train a dog, they're not going to take the time to train a cat.

Not every cat is trainable, but most are. Things like Feliway exist--that doesn't require training. Neither do auto spray bottles (they sell those too). You can pay your vet to apply Soft Paws or trim your cat's nails--no training required (though the techs don't love resistant cats). How many people who want to declaw have tried every alternative?

Yes, I think that if declawing is done it should be done well, with good pain meds, by a competent vet. But I don't think that makes it a fair solution for the cat. If you don't like scratching *don't get a cat*. If you have one and cannot keep it, rehome it to someone you know who doesn't mind claws or who cares enough to train it.

Finally, about ear cropping. You don't see me showing any dogs that have cropped ears. Never owned a breed that is cropped. I don't think it's a very nice procedure. However, it (even when botched) does not affect the animal's ability to walk, use a litterbox/eliminate normally, scratch, or stretch. If pain meds are used properly, the only negative aspect of the procedure is the anesthetic, which I believe is local. Since the pain can be managed such that the animal is not uncomfortable and suffers absolutely no long term ill effects, I don't see ear cropping as being on the same level as declawing. You're not removing an important part of the animal's skeletal anatomy, you're removing some cartilage that will quickly heal and the animal will continue to function normally.
 
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