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Oh gosh! 17 more days.
Debating withdrawing acceptance to pursue MD
- Thread starter allinthehips
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Hes already been accepted to multiple DO schools with a very short list. There isn't a real risk here. There are over 40 DO schools, and he got into 3 of the better ones when only applying to 6 schools. I am certain he can get multiple DO schools to accept him again next year especially with 35+ unapplied to. If he applied to more than 6 MD programs (which is way too low for someone with near median stats) he might get more love, or he could improve that MCAT and increases chances that way.
The argument is whether he should start DO school in 6 months; or try MD, possibly not get in, and start a different DO school in 1.5 years. If location is a priority, or he really likes that specific school, then those are good reasons to go. Fear of not being able to get into another DO school is not. What is the average GPA/MCAT for NYIT-AR or w/e its called? Is it even a 500 and 3.4?
Also 3x greater chance of matching is a big deal. Especially as evidence would point to the DO side Ortho match rate declining, while the MD will remain steady/go up a little as former DO only slots allow MD's to match. Only one side is giving up anything.
Three (3!) DO's matched Ortho in the entire country last year in the ACGME match. If that's not the red siren of warning to someone that the struggle is real, I don't know what is. The bias is real, and the merger isn't changing it in our favor (at least, not yet).
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This is a pretty misleading type of statistic often thrown around on here. The AOA match comes before the ACGME match. Any solid DO that has a chance at snagging an ACGME spot has the chops to grab an AOA spot. If that's the case, what DO in their right mind would decline an AOA spot and continue to pursue the ACGME spot?
Not saying that a DO is competitive for any ACGME spots, but no one really knows exactly how this will all shake out until after the merger. Until then, it's all speculative. What we do know is OP is a mediocre MD applicant (I applied with a slightly higher LM score, tons of ECs, zero MD invites) with a solid acceptance in hand. Seems like a no brainer to me.
Did you read his post? He said you have to be top 10% in your class with AOA, and have a step 1 of 250 and step 2 of 260 or something like that (I didn't even want to read his post again) as an MD to have a chance at ortho... About half of the MD applicants who match have less than a 247 step 1. So no, it's not splitting hairs.
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Not as glamorous as its sounds, but I could see myself doing something like that. It was still pretty interesting.
She even does bariatric treatment for patients as well. However, I haven't witness that yet.
Edit: PM&R stand for Plenty of Money and Relaxation 😀
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This is real... I have a few mid-to-low tier university IM programs in my ROL and if someone offers me an AOA/ACGME FM spot right now in North Dakota in exchange to withdraw from the ACGME match, I would take that North Dakota FM spot in a heart beat.
This is a hypothetical scenario since it's too late to withdraw. But assuming it wasn't, I would do it...
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To be fair i don’t believe he said you needed those stats, i believe he was just describing your typical ortho applicant. While it was a slight exaggeration the actualy averages of your typical ortho applicant in 2016 are
247/253 for matched
238/245 for unmatched
4 research experiences
8.2 abstracts/presentations/pubs
35% AOA (so this is where his point gets to be a little too over exaggerated, as the average applicant is actually non-AOA)
The point out of all his statements you decided to point out was that the average was not 250. You’re right it was 247 in 2016 and has been trending upwards though, soon enough (if not already) ill bet you the average matched applicant is 250+
Now this whole argument is splitting hairs haha sorry, just wanted to point out that yes it is still VERY hard to match ortho as an MD. As far as specialties go it is one of the hardest to match into.
Obviously MDs will have a much much better time matching ortho though, so i agree with your point
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*2 MD II, 1MD waitlist*
Again I appreciate all the feedback (some more than others). I was not trying to turn this into a DO VS MD thread which some have tried to hijack in that direction.
Just trying to gather info and suggestions. I want to make a decision based on reason and logic rather than feeling and some of the numbers y’all have thrown out are intriguing. TBH I have no ****ing clue what I am going to do this upcoming year. Hope and a prayer for that WL position and ultimately a snap decision once the time for thinking/stewing is over.
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It is not misleading, knowing that the vast majority of ACGME Ortho programs won't even interview a DO in the first place, and those that do will typically need some influential letters/phone calls/outstanding research to do so. It's the same in any competitive specialty, and I can tell you the same is true for ophthalmology (I am telling you direct information from residents/fellows/PDs/faculty at a couple of top programs). Look at it this way - the Ophtho AOA match happens AFTER the Ophtho ACGME match. And we know that in ACMGE Ophtho, the same dismal statistics occur for DO applicants, the same way it happens in Ortho and other competitive specialties. 28 applied this year to ACGME Ophtho, and only 10 matched. The ones that matched had to really work to set themselves apart from the MD applicants. And even the ones that didn't match probably also had those great letters and research (I mean, you'd be an idiot to apply ACGME Ophtho without those things), but simply couldn't convince the ACGME programs to take them over the qualified MD applicants.
Can you match into these specialties as a DO? Yes. Is it done in the same manner as an MD applicant? Absolutely not. You really need to do get that "extra" networking, strong research, strong letters/phone calls from influential faculty, and even then you have worse chances. For MD applicants, you just need a decent application with the typical bells and whistles and you are likely going to match.
So no, it isn't really that misleading.
Just pick a DO acceptance and attend the school. At this point, you're really screwing yourself over. The schools that accepted you won't accept you again, and if things turn sour for you in the MD application cycle, you probably won't be becoming a doctor. Really don't need to think hard about this.
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This is absurd. OP has a guarantee of being a doctor, or a chance of possibly getting an interview to possibly getting accepted and possibly going ortho. Why risk your entire life?
OP, you have a chance, an acceptance that some people never get. Wait for the MD waitlists. If you were meant to go ortho, I believe you can do it hell or high water whether its MD or DO. I'm sure if other posters were in the same position, they would not play chance with the rest of their life.
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Is there some reason that you didn't mention this in your OP, other than trying to start yet another DO vs MD flame war?????
My original advice still stands...drop the DO accepts and try your luck next year if you get no MD accepts this cycle.
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68PGunner
I would retake the MCAT for a higher score and reapply to MDs if I’m in your position. The bs that you will encounter at a DO school isn’t worth it especially if you’re interested in a competitive or semi-competitive specialty.
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AnatomyGrey12
So you applied to 6 MD schools and got 2 IIs and are on 1 WL... yeah drop the DO acceptances and reapply next year to 25-30 MD schools and 10 DO. Maybe retake the MCAT but it doesn’t appear that’s an issue with 2 IIs. This is what I would do in your shoes. I’m busting my hump every day just so I can get into a field that average MD students basically walk into. The letters matter.
If the DO schools ask next year why you turned down an acceptance just spin it that you didn’t feel like you were mature enough and didn’t feel like it was the right time to start medical school or something like that.
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Eyeroll. This guy/gal came to you with an honest question.
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IMO, your branchpoint on the decision tree is in the past. If you release your acceptance, you risk being “blacklisted” from the DO profession.
My advice is to have an honest consultation with an MD school PD, tell them your concern and desire to consider orthopedics. Ask if they would consider your application next cycle with some modifications/updates.
My experience and suspicion is that you might blow this opportunity unless you are very careful.
DOs do not have serious difficulty landing ortho but you have to be at the top of your class and crush the USMLE/COMLEX. This requirement is amplified even over your MD brethren.
Honestly, you are not in a position to feel panicked. You are aiming the right direction — good luck.
I don't expect DO physicians to know much about ACGME, but this is downright dishonest and disturbing. I expected that physicians would have higher ethical standards and wouldn't mislead people. The fact that you mentioned COMLEX when talking about ACGME Ortho is actually outrageous.
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But didn't give us all the needed info!
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AnatomyGrey12
No he won’t. I’ve seen far too many anecdotes to believe this anymore.
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AnatomyGrey12
That’s because they aren’t just talking about ACGME. Former AOA programs will be far more friendly to a stellar DO candidate.
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I had a similar debate in regard to this topic. The circumstances were slightly different, but I decided on keeping my DO acceptance. The only person who can make this decision is you. No one truly knows the aspects of the situation as intricately as yourself, and no one knows you as well as you know yourself. I am an older student who doesn't have the desire to gain such a competitive specialty, and I think that my age has definitely diminished my risk taking ability, haha. However, one of the main reasons I chose to keep my DO acceptance was due to my age, life experiences, and strong desire to become a Physician/start my career. If I were younger, I think I would have probably tried a cycle of MD. I am obviously not saying this to belittle the DO profession as I am extremely thankful to have this opportunity to become a Physician. However, it is obvious that being a DO does close doors. I think the big thing is that you can walk up to many MD students and most of them will not go ortho. As others have stated, its only around 3 percent. Maybe pull up a match list from some of the MD schools you wish to attend. I did this, and it made me realize that just being MD doesn't mean superstar specialty. It is still up to the student to get to that point. Also, others are saying that you have mediocre MD stats, which is true, but there must be something about your app that is attractive since you have received 2 II's just from 6 applications. I think that if you truly wanted to be an MD, then it would happen. Maybe not next cycle, but eventually. On top of that, I wonder how many students go into medical school wanting one specialty and only to change to something different? I'm sure its somewhat high.
BLUF: If you want to be MD, you can achieve it imo. Is the risk worth the reward?
Goodluck and I hope everything works out in your best interest!
BLUF: If you want to be MD, you can achieve it imo. Is the risk worth the reward?
Goodluck and I hope everything works out in your best interest!
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Making my DO money = Paying my twice as large loans. Higher cost = better right?
If he already had 2 IIs this cycle from USMD schools, he'll be considered a reapplicant next cycle. Without completely re-doing his app and/or retaking the MCAT, I don't see how he'll get more IIs the next time around as a reapplicant with a 65 LizzyM. Many secondaries have a box for reapplicants to explain what you did differently/how you improved from last cycle also. Not saying it'll be impossible, but to give up a sure-thing for something he'll have to either make up a convincing lie about, or radically improve his stats in order to get is definitely risky.
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AnatomyGrey12
Not true. He’ll only be a reapplicant at those 6 schools.
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That's a fair point on the ophtho match that I hadn't considered. I will say two things to that, though.
1) That average step 1 score last year was like 243 for ophtho. A lofty score that I'm assuming is rather high in the DO world. It would be nice to know the stats of the DOs applying to ophtho to know if they were competitive to begin with. At several of my DO interviews they stressed the importance of having realistic expectations because every year they have several students that apply to programs they have no right applying to.
2) The amount of DOs applying to ophtho is pretty small and that magnifies the fluctuation in the match a lot. One year a 25% matched, the year prior 40% matched.
Overall, I still say that it's pure speculation until the merger. No one should delude themselves into thinking they'll have parity in the match to MDs, but it may not be as dire as some of the naysayers promulgate on here. Even more so, it's pretty silly to hinge your medical school career on some obtuse desire to be an ortho surgeon. People change, interests change, priorities change. Not only that, but it's takes some serious chops to match ortho to begin with, and no one goes into medical school expecting to be average or worse, and yet it will happen to many of us.
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Ah, I see. I thought AMCAS automatically told every school he was a reapplicant. I stand corrected.
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This is SDN myth. There are several members on here who have released their DO acceptances, and got into DO schools the next cycle. You would only be blacklisted at the school you turn down the acceptance to.
There have also been members who turned down their DO acceptance and got into an MD school afterward.
The major problem OP would face is that if he doesn't get into an MD schools, he would not able to get into most of the older schools because he turned down acceptances from them.
The average for ophtha is 243 but you really only need a 230+ to be considered competitive as an MD applicant, if you are ok with the low tier schools. Although there are some exceptions, the difficulty of many of the competitive specialties are exaggerated by the averages; lots of smart people apply, but you don't necessarily need that high of a score, unless you need a higher tier program. For example, rad onc has an average of 247 but within those with a 220-230, 93% matched. Several low tier programs have told me they saw a 220+ as a good score. Ortho is harder to get in than these, but you can definitely be competitive with a 230s (71% accept rate), especially considering many of these also have no business applying, apply too high, and/or don't follow the proper steps (research, letters, connections, year off if needed). For comparison, a 250s would increase that acceptance rate to 83%, a significant but not drastic difference. The main difference is that the 250s group are typically getting into higher caliber programs.
It is actually 245 as of this year.
The merger did nothing but close several DO programs. It's going to be objectively harder, not easier, for DOs wanting competitive specialties to match into them (because they have limited seats in former AOA programs and will now be competing with stronger applicants, aka the MD applicants). Even assuming that the former AOA programs will still prefer DOs, there are fewer programs now.
The fact remains that MD applicants will generally be able to match into their desired competitive specialty as long as they have a decent application. DO applicants simply do not have that same opportunity. You can keep saying that there are few applicants and that it makes quantitive analysis difficult, but you should also know that even the ones that did not match into ophtho usually have good research and good letters. Stats have nothing to do with the match when it comes to DOs trying to get into competitive specialties... a high step 1 and research is not the magic bullet - you absolutely have to network and build connections; that's just how it works in the real world. MDs simply do not have to do the same things as a DO to match into competitive fields.
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I would clarify that MDs have schools that do this stuff for them. They get research set up super easily, they get mentors, THEY HAVE A HOME DEPARTMENT!!!, and they have advising. DO schools usually have none of those. So, yeah, MD students have to do less academically at this point, but they also get these extra things spoonfed to them as well because they go to good schools.
Having a home department is like the most important thing to competitive specialties even though it never gets directly talked about on SDN for some reason.
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OP, How do you KNOW you must be an orthopedic surgeon? Completely serious question. Are you one of the small number of students each year that has legitimate background experiences/knowledge/mentorship in a field. Sooooo many people say this type of **** and have never had a real job, never seen surgery, never worked 24 hours straight, never done a damn thing to know that's what they want to do. I see it at my school all the time and I just laugh.
My point is that you will almost certainly either not do well enough in school and/or change your mind if you are without these real reasons (no shame in that). Therefore, you would really be deciding if it was worth it to delay a year and lose out on 1 year of attending level salary and getting your life going to avoid dealing with the genuine stupidity of DO school. That's obviously up to you, but personally, I decided it wasn't worth it even though I knew I would likely get in.
My point is that you will almost certainly either not do well enough in school and/or change your mind if you are without these real reasons (no shame in that). Therefore, you would really be deciding if it was worth it to delay a year and lose out on 1 year of attending level salary and getting your life going to avoid dealing with the genuine stupidity of DO school. That's obviously up to you, but personally, I decided it wasn't worth it even though I knew I would likely get in.
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Undergone multiple MSK surgeries, shadowed since 1st year UG, 40+hours/week as ortho scribe since graduation, multiple surgeries viewed, main ortho I work with “guarantees” he could help me get in with the PD at his former community ortho residency (even if not the case, it’s a good connection and drops to 0% if DO), worked 2 jobs in UG. Resilience and conscientiousness I think are my key attributes. Of course I acknowledge preferences can change, however deep down I’ve wanted to do this since before college.
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What...?
You wouldn't consider performing any of the things on that list? OR you don't consider the things on that list to be procedures?
If the latter, then how do you classify vertebroplasty/kyphoplasties, Fluoroscopy guided spine injections and radiofrequency ablations, spinal cord simulator device placements and intrathecal pain pump implants...
I guess some of that stuff borders on pseudo surgical almost with the device placements. I'm just honestly curious what you're talking about.
You should pretty much always pick MD over DO school if given the opportunity. Your life will be a lot easier. There's just less hoops you have to jump through and more opportunities for residency matching.
The real question here is if you really think you can match an MD school...otherwise you're just wasting a year.
The real question here is if you really think you can match an MD school...otherwise you're just wasting a year.
I declined a DO acceptance for a variety of reasons and reapplied this cycle and have 2 MD acceptances. Also being blacklisted from DO schools is a myth. Obviously didn’t reapply to the school I gave up the acceptance to, but had no problem getting interviews from other good DO programs. PM me if you want more info.
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As a DO who matched into ortho, it’s going to depend on the amount of risk you want to take. You’ll have to hustle hard to land a spot in our AOA/former AOA programs, but in the end you will be an ortho surgeon.
As an MD, you’ll have more support. You will also have more programs consider your application. I doubt it would be a cakewalk either though.
I don’t regret my decision to go DO since I ended up matching into a great program, but trying another MD cycle isnt unreasonable if you are dead set on ortho.
As an MD, you’ll have more support. You will also have more programs consider your application. I doubt it would be a cakewalk either though.
I don’t regret my decision to go DO since I ended up matching into a great program, but trying another MD cycle isnt unreasonable if you are dead set on ortho.
I don't care. He is absolutely dishonest and inaccurate.
Who cares. Just because you match into an ACGME program doesn't mean you know much about it. Unless he is speaking as a faculty member who is involved with resident selection in an ACGME orthopedic program or giving us information directly from people like that, his words are trash, especially since he mentioned COMLEX in reference to ACGME ortho. Posts like that should lead to an automatic suspension or ban from this site.
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AnatomyGrey12
Your reading comprehension is absolutely terrible. He said nothing about COMLEX in reference to ACGME ortho.
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deleted610572
You seem pretty agro right now. Any chance you are a second year?
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I feel the same way.
Making my DO money = Paying my twice as large loans. Higher cost = better right?
My DO school was cheaper than any MD school I could have gone to (not from a state with cheap IS public school).
They all are, not sure why they "aren't" to you. Take a look at that last paragraph:
- Interventional spinal therapeutics: image-guided spinal diagnostics and injections, including discograms, interlaminar and transforaminal epidurals, and radiofrequency ablations, spinal cord stimulation, vertebroplasty/kyphoplasty, and intrathecal pump placements. These techniques are being used as a nonsurgical pain-relieving intervention for back pain and radiculopathy.
Yeah, I applied with OP's LizzyM 5 yrs ago, I applied broadly, interviewed very well, tons ECs, tons of research. I applied broadly (dozens of MD schools). I wasn't from a state that had a school with IS bias, though. Had a total of 0 MD acceptances (only a couple MD interviews, waitlisted). The truth is we have no idea what OP's result will be.
Its still a crapshoot and there's too many factors to be confident in any type of result. We also don't know if OP has a 3.7 and a 28 or a 3.9 and a 26 or a 3.0 and a 35 (or whatever the new equivalent scores are). Those are very different in the eyes of MD adcoms.
That all said, if OP wants Ortho, then its worth one broad MD application cycle, just to try. Keep in mind though, OP, you may end up waiting 1-2 years just to go to a worse DO school. No one can tell you whether that's the right choice. You're the one that's going to have to live with it.
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AnatomyGrey12
He’s a first year
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deleted610572
Feel bad for when spring of second year rolls up then. It’s understandable when boards are coming up to blow up like that
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You're correct, what you posted is a list of procedures, however, can you clarify what you mean when you say they all are. Are injections and diagnostics considered procedures? Is that so from a billing standpoint?
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Ortho is hard to get into, even as a MD. If you're not getting interviews at MD schools what makes you think you're suddenly going to jump entire statistical quartiles and become a high performing student who can match Ortho?
Look, I honestly cant relate because I think ortho is genuinely barbaric. But if I really loved it enough to know I'd break my ass, I'd start now. So go ahead and drop if you really have no other loves in medicine. Otherwise take the acceptance and really just run with it and find out just how much you want free time when you're done with second year.
Look, I honestly cant relate because I think ortho is genuinely barbaric. But if I really loved it enough to know I'd break my ass, I'd start now. So go ahead and drop if you really have no other loves in medicine. Otherwise take the acceptance and really just run with it and find out just how much you want free time when you're done with second year.
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68PGunner
I am actually worried about his mental state in 2nd year. It's going to be bombastic when school admins shove their Big Brotha Phallic toy up his anus, making him do all of these DO things instead of giving him enough time for board. It's a constant struggle.
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68PGunner
Any injection done by a physician is usually considered a procedure, which equates to more $$$ for the billing code.
As for diagnostic procedures, I'm only aware of those that are related to imaging studies, which equate to more $$$ for the billing code.
PMR is a fantastic field. It's among my top three, especially if you're doing a Spine or Pain Fellowship on top of that. To get into either of these fellowships, you need a min of 230+ Step 1.
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Lolz. Where you get this info from?
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68PGunner
By perusing the PMR forum. Not claiming to be a know it all but I have been told by multiple PMR residents that PMR pain is competitive and it would help tremendously to come from a strong PMR resident program. Based on my limited knowledge of a few top PMR programs, the resident Step 1 is bet 220-240.
It would be awesome if you could shine some light on my deficits and share your knowledge so that others who are interested in the field could benefit when it’s time for them to apply to residencies.
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Is it weird that I can see you asking for the manager at retail places?
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