Any plans to moonlight if your program allows it? I'm thinking about this myself as well going into perio.
I would LOVE to have my tuition cut in half, I don't think my program does that but I'd be the first to sign up
Are you planning to practice on the east coast?
Is it a 2 year or 3 year program? That makes quite a difference too
I would take those averages with a grain of salt. They are counting grads with no student loans (parents paid for it or military scholarships) into those numbers, which brings their average stats down by a lot.
Yes, mine is a 3 year program. I did what I could to go to a 2/2.5 year program but that wasn't in the cards for me
True. But have you considered to evaluate ortho beyond residency? I know most dental students and residents are super focused on keeping their debt down and graduate on time. However, I suspect one should also view any field within the scope of it’s market beyond assumptions. Has ortho fees gone up last 20 years at the same rate as inflation or outperformed the rise in expenses (payroll, overhead, etc) and other interventions? No. I don’t mean to sway you from your decision to get into ortho. But considering stagnant insurance fees, the odds of future higher payroll and payroll tax, and other cost you may not be able to control, etc. I think those are other topics that you should look closer.Yes, mine is a 3 year program. I did what I could to go to a 2/2.5 year program but that wasn't in the cards for me
I'm glad you consider $600k to be one of the cheapest routes haha the thought of being in debt that high keeps me up at night sometimes. I realize though that for some 600k is the cost of dental school alone so I'm grateful that I was able to attend my state dental school. If I had attended one of those pricier dental schools, I think a residency program that would've put me in any more debt would have been off the table.
I wish it wasn't this insanely expensive to pursue a career but thankfully I do have a supportive family who help me as much as they can, of course not paying my tuition but helping me eat and enjoy my life a little lol I don't have a partner yet so hopefully whoever I end up with doesn't run for the hills when they hear about my debt
As usual .... well said without any fluff.
Great point. Can't compare any profession nowadays. Technology has changed everything. 100 yrs ago Orthos used to fabricate bands and brackets for their patients. They could only see 1 or 2 patients a day. Ortho was really only available to the affluent. Then generic edge wise brackets came along. Much easier. You still had to bend wire (1st, 2nd and 3rd order bends), but now you could see 10-20 patients per day. Then pre-adjusted brackets and self ligating brackets came along. Hey. You can be lazy and not have to bend the stainless steel wires. Now you can see 100 patients a day with the proper staff. Then came aligners. Hey. Orthos don't have to do anything anymore lol.
Trust me. You're not going to want to work till your 80 lol. Even for an orthodontist. The work is easy, but since you need to see so many patients .... the revenue per appt is low and getting lower. I see anywhere between 40-70 patients a day. It's a busy day. Imagine getting up and down that many times.
Not sure. Depends on alot of factors. Do you have a spouse? A family to support? I had a spouse who worked to help pay for things while I was in residency (although I received a stipend) and when I graduated. She didn't make alot, but any bit helps.
One of the biggest misconceptions about dentistry. This one actually made me chuckle. Easy to plan to work until 80, when the odds of that happening is closer to seeing a solar eclipse. Even if one could work until age 80 - why? Even during an economic downturn like now (during the pandemic), dentists are not planning on retire until age 80.
Ideally, your student loan debt to income ratio (monthly student loan repayment amount/monthly gross income x100) should NOT be more than 20%. If your monthly gross income is $20k (or $240k/year), your student loan debt should NOT be more than $350k. My wife and I owed $450k in student loan. Our student loan debt to income ratio right after graduation was around 17%....and we were fine. This ratio declined sharply 2-3 years later because of the increase in income and the reduction in our student loans (we paid off smaller loans first).
The assumption here is that all orthodontists and general dentists have the same body.
Is there any study or survey that supports this assertion? I was under the impression that the #1 reason general dentists retire is due to musculoskeletal issues that are a byproduct of their work.
That $4,000/month in student loan payments is from your post tax income (taxes will go up in the near future with the Biden administration).
What will your total debt be on completion of school?
Expected debt will be ~$360K, and that's with in state tuition in years 2-4. I could use savings and home equity to pay for the first year and some of the second, which would reduce the balance to $205K upon graduation from a 1-year residency (5 years in future). This would save at least $28,000 in interest fees, assuming interest accrual at 7%.
Thank you!
If you asked Dave Ramsey, I think this is what he would say to you: “VJP212, you are a broke dentist. Are you ready? Because I am about to destroy your life. Forget about taking 4wk vacation. Forget about eating out and hanging out with friends. You don’t have to spend money to impress people who you don’t like. Work 7 days/wk, get a side hustle, and try to become debt free in 2-3 years. It’s human nature to want it and want it now; it is also a sign of immaturity. Being willing to delay pleasure for a greater result is a sign of maturity”.
I’m quite an acolyte of Dave Ramsey – the only way I’ve been able to take so much time off and commit to dental school was by living frugally for many years, which wasn’t fun the first time around. After having done the Dave Ramsey thing for so long, I’m not eager to do it again.
Thank you and I absolutely would if I could!
It's amazing how many people will tell you how great it is to be forging ahead with dentistry at this age. The encouragement and positivity is wonderful, although I've come to believe that most of them have no clue what paying back $350K would feel like. Even if I paid for the first year out of pocket, that only reduces debt to ~$205K and $2,300 monthly payments thereafter.
I sounded this way because VJP212 doesn't start school the traditional way.....ie at 21-20 yo. He’s 35. With another year of GPR, he will be over 40 yo, when he starts working. And then he will have to face a monthly debt payment of $4000 for the next 10 years…he will be 50. Two of my dental classmates started school at 36 and 40. They were both fine because they graduated from dental school and then the specialty programs (endo and ortho, respectively) with zero debt. There is one thing in the future that you can’t control and that is your health. As you get older, bad things start to show up: back pain, carpal tunnel, vision problem, cancer, high blood pressure, heart diseases etc. My good friend was a GP. He died on his 50th birthday from a heart attack leaving behind a wife and 3 kids. Today, I finished his youngest daughter’s ortho tx. This is why I’ve always told young kids to work hard in school, earn good enough grades for cheap in-state professional schools, and avoid taking a gap year. The sooner you work and start saving, the sooner you can retire.
Would you say patient management/expectations have become more difficult in the last 10 years with the advent of social media and everyone becoming an internet expert?
$200K debt seems to be the threshold below which one can still live a decent life while paying off the loans ahead of schedule. There will be sacrifice for sure, but it won't be "rice and beans or beans and rice" every night, as Dave Ramsey would say. $2200/month with (hopefully) a rapidly rising income would allow for significant prepayments that will dramatically slow down the interest and thereby knock off more principal each month. I'm single without children, so driving out to a rural area 2-3x/week is no issue provided my earnings are significantly higher.
Phoenix is definitely saturated today - seems to be a dentist/ortho clinic on every street, not to mention the big DSOs and public health clinics. Phoenix thins out pretty quickly as you get past the North and East Valley, so possibly some areas to work rural for a few days per week provided the earnings are significantly better.
What if a kid works really hard like you suggested.... hypothetically gets 4.0 gpa in undergrad across the board, get accepted to hard to get in dental schools like Harvard, Penn, Columbia, etc - which today costs about $500-700k after the interest on the debt. That’s assuming the kid is applying today... Who knows what it will cost in few years... $700-800k? Would you talk that kid out of Harvard? Would you succeed?
I've advised young kids to work hard and get good grades so they can get into cheap state schools (and then to paid residency programs), and not into some expensive Ivy league schools. If they chose to attend those expensive schools, they obviously didn't take my (and most practing dentists') advice seriously. Not all book smart kids are smart with their money.
A friend of mine was in the same situation as yours. He is in his mid or late 30s, had a career in banking but decided to quit that job for dental school. Luckily he got into our state school so his debt will not be too bad (he’s looking at around $270k for 4 years). He’s a D1 now, loving it and he’s thinking about going for oral surgery after graduation, which is a whole other weighty decision in terms of time commitment and income potential. I really admire folks with the courage to quit a comfortable path to pursue something challenging but rewarding, like you or my friend. Best of luck to you.
Thank you! I was accepted to a state school and my total debt taken out would be almost identical, but the accrued interest would push it much higher after 4+ years.
Have the magnetic poles reversed?
