Debt and Ortho

[sonotsure]

I'm sure there's HUNDREDS of posts on SDN about debt and deciding whether it's worth it to pursue a residency (that charges tuition). I am in the process of applying for ortho and there are so many schools that will end up costing me an addition 150-200k in loans and I currently go to a dental school that will end up costing me around 200k in the end. My question is basically how much more debt can I reasonably go into before I'm in a scary amount of debt? Is 500k of debt a horrifying amount or is it doable?

Now I know this question may mean different things for different people but if anyone can explain what paying back loans will look like at high amounts like I've listed above I'd really appreciate it. And I'm aware that this is a vague question but unfortunately I'm not super loan savvy.

I'm also obviously trying to apply to schools that are not super expensive but the one's that pay are not really on my radar because most are hospital based. Thank in advance!

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[bracketbuster68]

I'm sure there's HUNDREDS of posts on SDN about debt and deciding whether it's worth it to pursue a residency (that charges tuition). I am in the process of applying for ortho and there are so many schools that will end up costing me an addition 150-200k in loans and I currently go to a dental school that will end up costing me around 200k in the end. My question is basically how much more debt can I reasonably go into before I'm in a scary amount of debt? Is 500k of debt a horrifying amount or is it doable?

Now I know this question may mean different things for different people but if anyone can explain what paying back loans will look like at high amounts like I've listed above I'd really appreciate it. And I'm aware that this is a vague question but unfortunately I'm not super loan savvy.

I'm also obviously trying to apply to schools that are not super expensive but the one's that pay are not really on my radar because most are hospital based. Thank in advance!

One million dollars

 

[2TH MVR]

I'm sure there's HUNDREDS of posts on SDN about debt and deciding whether it's worth it to pursue a residency (that charges tuition). I am in the process of applying for ortho and there are so many schools that will end up costing me an addition 150-200k in loans and I currently go to a dental school that will end up costing me around 200k in the end. My question is basically how much more debt can I reasonably go into before I'm in a scary amount of debt? Is 500k of debt a horrifying amount or is it doable?

Now I know this question may mean different things for different people but if anyone can explain what paying back loans will look like at high amounts like I've listed above I'd really appreciate it. And I'm aware that this is a vague question but unfortunately I'm not super loan savvy.

I'm also obviously trying to apply to schools that are not super expensive but the one's that pay are not really on my radar because most are hospital based. Thank in advance!

Why not stipend paying hospital based residencies? Seems like a no brainer to me. I attended one and I was essentially paid to go to residency. I saw things at the hospital residency that you are never going to experience in a traditional dental school.

 

[011110]

You really should not take out more loans than 1x your future salary. Ortho associateships will generally make 250-300k depending on the area, so any higher than this is a losing proposition. Add on top lose 2-3 years of GP income and retirement savings. The orthos making 500-700k are in established mega practices that take 5-10 years to establish with business acumen so they are outliers. Unless you are walking into a family practice like this, be realistic with income.

 

[sonotsure]

Why not stipend paying hospital based residencies? Seems like a no brainer to me. I attended one and I was essentially paid to go to residency. I saw things at the hospital residency that you are never going to experience in a traditional dental school.

I would really want to go to one of those, the environment especially appeals to me. I have heard however, that most of these programs do not accept applicants like me (California student, straight out of dental school, didn't do a GPR)..do you have any insight on this? I'm currently looking at Washington Medstar and Montefiore in New York.

 

[bracketbuster68]

You really should not take out more loans than 1x your future salary. Ortho associateships will generally make 250-300k depending on the area, so any higher than this is a losing proposition. Add on top lose 2-3 years of GP income and retirement savings. The orthos making 500-700k are in established mega practices that take 5-10 years to establish with business acumen so they are outliers. Unless you are walking into a family practice like this, be realistic with income.

Are the 500-700K earners owners in established mega practices?

 

[011110]

Are the 500-700K earners owners in established mega practices?

Absolutely. You also have to figure they are pumping out so many orthos nowadays. Its not like OS, where the spots are limited in hospitals. Private schools like Georgia pump out 18 (read that 18) new orthos per year. All of these orthodontists are not going to reach 500-700k income, most will not and will work in corporate making 200-300k depending on the area. If you can go rural you can startup, but you will be in the red awhile. The orthos that will do best will walk into dads office that is a mega practice, or those that got lucky from an ortho that died and bought the practice on short sale.

 

[bracketbuster68]

Absolutely. You also have to figure they are pumping out so many orthos nowadays. Its not like OS, where the spots are limited in hospitals. Private schools like Georgia pump out 18 (read that 18) new orthos per year. All of these orthodontists are not going to reach 500-700k income, most will not and will work in corporate making 200-300k depending on the area. If you can go rural you can startup, but you will be in the red awhile. The orthos that will do best will walk into dads office that is a mega practice, or those that got lucky from an ortho that died and bought the practice on short sale.

How many days are they working per week, how many pts are they seeing per day, what's the average case cost, and what's overhead? Has to be TERRIBLE to peak 500-700K as a mega practice owner.

 

[P7898]

Yah know $200k for dental school is not bad at all. Honestly, I would just do an bomb ass AEGD, get Invisalign certified and get some good surgery and endo experience and ride out the profession the right way. Unless you can get it under $100k for ortho, I do not think financially it is worth it. You can make $200-$300k as a GP associate if you have the right skillset. I know a couple that do it and they didn't have to go in another $150k+ of debt.

 

[011110]

How many days are they working per week, how many pts are they seeing per day, what's the average case cost, and what's overhead? Has to be TERRIBLE to peak 500-700K as a mega practice owner.

Those are too many variable questions on stuff I cannot answer. What I can say is that if you think 500-700k is TERRIBLE income than your expectations are unrealistic and you’re in the wrong field.

 

[sonotsure]

Yah know $200k for dental school is not bad at all. Honestly, I would just do an bomb ass AEGD, get Invisalign certified and get some good surgery and endo experience and ride out the profession the right way. Unless you can get it under $100k for ortho, I do not think financially it is worth it. You can make $200-$300k as a GP associate if you have the right skillset. I know a couple that do it and they didn't have to go in another $150k+ of debt.

I've thought long and hard about just doing something like this and I'm pretty confident it's not what I want. I wish it was though lol

 

[bracketbuster68]

Those are too many variable questions on stuff I cannot answer. What I can say is that if you think 500-700k is TERRIBLE income than your expectations are unrealistic and you’re in the wrong field.

Anyone can do the math if they know what they're talking about. Just make conservative estimates

 

[bracketbuster68]

@011110 Here's a conservative estimate for you. 100 pts/week, $160/appt ($4800/case), 60% overhead, ~15 starts/month (20%ish down), 49 weeks/year. What does that come out to? How many days does it take to see 100 patients? Now factor in the leftover weekdays that you can use to travel to other offices.

 

[vk223]

I would really want to go to one of those, the environment especially appeals to me. I have heard however, that most of these programs do not accept applicants like me (California student, straight out of dental school, didn't do a GPR)..do you have any insight on this? I'm currently looking at Washington Medstar and Montefiore in New York.

I'm not sure if the Washing Medstar program still exists. If it does, it does not have a good reputation. Montefiore is a decent program and I believe quite a few residents there did not have previous GPR/working experience. Also, besides the hospital program, many programs have low tuition and are quite affordable (of course more competitive too). And if you choose a 2 year program you can work one year earlier, so count that opportunity cost as well. 200k of student loan is on the lower side comparing to many who I know will have at least half a million loan fresh out of school. They are usually planning to use REPAYE. I wouldn't worry much about your loan situation if I were you.

 

[vk223]

Also, for one of the previous comment about getting CEs and become a super dentist. It's not just about money but also about the lifestyle and doing the things you love. I feel like you will definitely learn so much more in the specialty program and is the way to go if you truly love Ortho.

 

[ssm38]

I'm not sure if the Washing Medstar program still exists. If it does, it does not have a good reputation. Montefiore is a decent program and I believe quite a few residents there did not have previous GPR/working experience. Also, besides the hospital program, many programs have low tuition and are quite affordable (of course more competitive too). And if you choose a 2 year program you can work one year earlier, so count that opportunity cost as well. 200k of student loan is on the lower side comparing to many who I know will have at least half a million loan fresh out of school. They are usually planning to use REPAYE. I wouldn't worry much about your loan situation if I were you.

What did you hear about MedStar's program? I applied there but had no idea that apparently its a bad program. What makes it not a good program?

 

[sonotsure]

I'm not sure if the Washing Medstar program still exists. If it does, it does not have a good reputation. Montefiore is a decent program and I believe quite a few residents there did not have previous GPR/working experience. Also, besides the hospital program, many programs have low tuition and are quite affordable (of course more competitive too). And if you choose a 2 year program you can work one year earlier, so count that opportunity cost as well. 200k of student loan is on the lower side comparing to many who I know will have at least half a million loan fresh out of school. They are usually planning to use REPAYE. I wouldn't worry much about your loan situation if I were you.

Also interested in what @ssm38 asked above!

@vk223 any good programs that are affordable that you can think of? I'm trying to make sure I have all of them on my list

 

[Alpha Centauri]

I always wanted to do ortho. Now as a D4 I see things differently. My plan is to do a GPR to get more experience, speed, and skill. In the process I'll be able to pay off more of my loans and be able to reevaluate going into Ortho. Plus it will be more likely for acceptance in a stipend based position

 

[FeralisExtremum]

I always wanted to do ortho. Now as a D4 I see things differently. My plan is to do a GPR to get more experience, speed, and skill. In the process I'll be able to pay off more of my loans and be able to reevaluate going into Ortho. Plus it will be more likely for acceptance in a stipend based position

Honestly, you could match to a stipend based position without a GPR.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Honestly, you could match to a stipend based position without a GPR.

Very true, but with the Columbia COVID experience a GPR to make me a proficient dentist is more worthwhile to me

 

[aggietxdent]

Very true, but with the Columbia COVID experience a GPR to make me a proficient dentist is more worthwhile to me

Working as a dentist will make you a proficient dentist. I love how people have this mindset that somehow a GPR/AEGD is the only way to get "experience" and working as a dentist in the real world is some sort of black hole where you learn nothing new.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Working as a dentist will make you a proficient dentist. I love how people have this mindset that somehow a GPR/AEGD is the only way to get "experience" and working as a dentist in the real world is some sort of black hole where you learn nothing new.

Wise words from someone who hasn't worked a day in their life in private practice!

 

[2TH MVR]

Working as a dentist will make you a proficient dentist. I love how people have this mindset that somehow a GPR/AEGD is the only way to get "experience" and working as a dentist in the real world is some sort of black hole where you learn nothing new.

It depends on the environment where you are working as a dentist.

If you are working in a Corp mill .... you'll gain SPEED, but probably not experience high end or specialized dental procedures. It's also a toss up if working for another dentist. Again ... depends on the situation. If you are an employee associate in a practice whose only objective is for you to see all the lesser procedures and/or doing HMO/PPO procedures .... probably not going to be exposed to those high end, specialized procedures. If you associate in the right practice or have the right mentor ... then of course ..... you'll be exposed to more dentistry.

One advantage to associating vs GPR/AEGD is the business knowledge you'll gain. You'll see 1st hand how to run a dental practice. I associated for 6 months KNOWING that my objective was to buy into a partnership or buy my own practice. I spent all my free time observing how the staff did their jobs, filing insurance claims, appts, billing, accts payable, accts receivable, marketing, staff management, etc. etc.

 

[mmc12]

It depends on the environment where you are working as a dentist.

If you are working in a Corp mill .... you'll gain SPEED, but probably not experience high end or specialized dental procedures. It's also a toss up if working for another dentist. Again ... depends on the situation. If you are an employee associate in a practice whose only objective is for you to see all the lesser procedures and/or doing HMO/PPO procedures .... probably not going to be exposed to those high end, specialized procedures. If you associate in the right practice or have the right mentor ... then of course ..... you'll be exposed to more dentistry.

I'll also add that finding the right mentor who is able to guide you and bail you out is very tough in private practice. They have to be willing to give up some of their own potential production (from seeing their own patients) to mentor you and "show you the ropes." This is one advantage of GPRs, where they have attendings dedicated solely to resident education. Also, most programs have specialists who come weekly (perio, OMFS, etc) so you have the ability to explore more complex procedures with a specialist's guidance.

 

[allDAT]

You’ll be fine as an ortho with 400k or less in student loans. Above 500k it may depend on where you want to practice. Orthos still do really well, so if you get in, congratulations. You’re fortunate to have only spent 200k on your DDS.

Start to worry when you spend 400k+ to become a dentist and then another 200-250k to become an ortho.

 

[AONLINE]

Working as a dentist will make you a proficient dentist. I love how people have this mindset that somehow a GPR/AEGD is the only way to get "experience" and working as a dentist in the real world is some sort of black hole where you learn nothing new.

I have been hearing mixed views on whether doing a GPR/AEGD or jumping straight to dentisting in the real world would help you more. There are people in both camps.

 

[vk223]

Also interested in what @ssm38 asked above!

@vk223 any good programs that are affordable that you can think of? I'm trying to make sure I have all of them on my list

There were rumors couple of years ago that residents don't get enough chairs in Washington Medstar and there's a possibility they might be shutting down, but they are rumors. Maybe the program is still doing okay as of today.
And for affordable programs, hospital programs normally give a stipend if you are okay with hospital settings. I know for sure that Montefiore does not require GPR, and you might need to ask the other programs to see if they require that. There are bunch of programs that's pretty cheap in terms of tuition, or affordable if not cheap. Just to name a few, all Texas programs, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Tennessee, Alabama, Ohio State, Iowa, Minnesota, etc. And there are programs who would give a stipend to cover tuition cost such as UIC. They usually mention that either on the website or during the interview. I personally factor in opportunity cost for the third year as well. Let's underestimate a little of your first year salary ($200k), after tax it'd be 140k. I like the 2 year programs because you gain extra one year of salary to offset tuition cost. So personally I would even consider 2 year programs with slightly higher tuition (50k-80k/year) such as Marquette, Detroit Mercy, Temple, Tufts, etc. And of course, cheaper/shorter programs are generally more competitive too.

 

[sweetdreams4]

Why not stipend paying hospital based residencies? Seems like a no brainer to me. I attended one and I was essentially paid to go to residency. I saw things at the hospital residency that you are never going to experience in a traditional dental school.

Where did you attend for residency?

 

[Mauricio45]

Ortho associateships will generally make 250-300k depending on the area, so any higher than this is a losing proposition.

Seems kinda low for ortho associates. I know GPs associates that make the same amount.

 

[2TH MVR]

Where did you attend for residency?

PM me.

 

[Likkriue]

read pages 18-31 regarding new graduates. I’m pretty sure they would love to know where those 250k-300k associate ship positions exist.

https://www.aaoinfo.org/sites/default/files/Orthodontic%20Workforce%20Report_April%202018.pdf

 

[LFA20]

Stress level as ortho < stress level as GP.

Debt level as a gp< debt level as ortho

 

[bracketbuster68]

read pages 18-31 regarding new graduates. I’m pretty sure they would love to know where those 250k-300k associate ship positions exist.

https://www.aaoinfo.org/sites/default/files/Orthodontic%20Workforce%20Report_April%202018.pdf

PM me and I’ll show you

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

PM me and I’ll show you

Big Hoss

 

[Likkriue]

PM me and I’ll show you

not going into ortho so irrelevant to me. If you know those positions, then you outsmarted all those graduates in the workforce report. Probably could make a killing helping them find jobs as a recruiter.

 

[bracketbuster68]

You guys crack me up

 

[2TH MVR]

read pages 18-31 regarding new graduates. I’m pretty sure they would love to know where those 250k-300k associate ship positions exist.

https://www.aaoinfo.org/sites/default/files/Orthodontic%20Workforce%20Report_April%202018.pdf

I know of a PT Corp position in Tucson, AZ. 200-300K. I also know of two Corps looking to hire PT orthodontists. 200-300K. I know this because these positions were offered to me. If you work 4 days/week .... you'll be close to 300K. If you work 5-6 days per week .... you'll easily make over 300K.

These jobs are out there. Just can't be picky and will need to travel between the offices. I just took another office in Phx. I'm now at 4 different locations in Phx. I am also temping at the Tucson locations until they can locate an ortho to work there. Yeah. I'm currently working 5-6 days per week between 7 different locations. It's temporary until they can find another ortho. I actually like the variety in different locations.

People love to complain when things are not handed to them on a shiny platter.

Anyone want more details on these jobs can pm me.

 

[blablabla1]

I know of a PT Corp position in Tucson, AZ. 200-300K. I also know of two Corps looking to hire PT orthodontists. 200-300K. I know this because these positions were offered to me. If you work 4 days/week .... you'll be close to 300K. If you work 5-6 days per week .... you'll easily make over 300K.

These jobs are out there. Just can't be picky and will need to travel between the offices. I just took another office in Phx. I'm now at 4 different locations in Phx. I am also temping at the Tucson locations until they can locate an ortho to work there. Yeah. I'm currently working 5-6 days per week between 7 different locations. It's temporary until they can find another ortho. I actually like the variety in different locations.

People love to complain when things are not handed to them on a shiny platter.

Anyone want more details on these jobs can pm me.

I appreciate your optimistic insights into the ortho world on this forum. I see way too much doom and gloom about ortho on SDN. It is not the same career it was even 20 years ago but it is still lucrative if you’re willing to put in some work and it is still a lot of fun.

Your posts make me even more excited about completing the residency I just matched to and starting to work in a couple years

 

[2TH MVR]

I appreciate your optimistic insights into the ortho world on this forum. I see way too much doom and gloom about ortho on SDN. It is not the same career it was even 20 years ago but it is still lucrative if you’re willing to put in some work and it is still a lot of fun.

Your posts make me even more excited about completing the residency I just matched to and starting to work in a couple years

More fun facts.
My daily minimum is almost TWICE that of the general dentists that work at my Corp. Thats not even counting the bonuses.
Post covid ..... most of the Corp support employees, middle managers, business managers, periodontists, exodontists and general dentists were asked to take a 10% pay cut. I kept my SAME salary and bonus structure. Not sure about OMFS employees. Orthodontics is responsible for a majority of the company revenue.

I've said this so many times. Yes. 20 yrs ago orthos had it good. But there were few jobs except for those lousy PP associateships. Most of us were FORCED into buying into a partnership or buying an existing ortho practice. Of course this worked out in the end. My point is that there were literally NO CORPS when I 1st graduated. I was unemployed for a period of 12 months after I graduated. My 1st associateship was supposed to lead into buying the practice after 6 months. FAILED. I spent the next 6-12 months trying to find a job or something.

Now. Yes. It's an unfortunate truth. CORPS are eveywhere in the saturated areas. But there are plenty of Corp ortho jobs available. I never had this option when I graduated.

20 yrs ago .... orthodontists were the envy of our dental colleagues. Inside the Corp I work for .... the envy is still there. Not much has changed.

 

[mmc12]

More fun facts.
My daily minimum is almost TWICE that of the general dentists that work at my Corp. Thats not even counting the bonuses.
Post covid ..... most of the Corp support employees, middle managers, business managers, periodontists, exodontists and general dentists were asked to take a 10% pay cut. I kept my SAME salary and bonus structure. Not sure about OMFS employees. Orthodontics is responsible for a majority of the company revenue.

I've said this so many times. Yes. 20 yrs ago orthos had it good. But there were few jobs except for those lousy PP associateships. Most of us were FORCED into buying into a partnership or buying an existing ortho practice. Of course this worked out in the end. My point is that there were literally NO CORPS when I 1st graduated. I was unemployed for a period of 12 months after I graduated. My 1st associateship was supposed to lead into buying the practice after 6 months. FAILED. I spent the next 6-12 months trying to find a job or something.

Now. Yes. It's an unfortunate truth. CORPS are eveywhere in the saturated areas. But there are plenty of Corp ortho jobs available. I never had this option when I graduated.

20 yrs ago .... orthodontists were the envy of our dental colleagues. Inside the Corp I work for .... the envy is still there. Not much has changed.

Do you think the fact that the Georgia School of Orthodontics increasing their class size to 36 a year will lead to decreasing salaries for orthodontists at corps?

 

[Likkriue]

Do you think the fact that the Georgia School of Orthodontics increasing their class size to 36 a year will lead to decreasing salaries for orthodontists at

Corps currently are undermanned, almost everyone you ask in dental school is going to say they want to own their own business and be their own boss. Hence why they went to dental school.
So don’t think they will be saturated anytime soon unless orthodontic program numbers double/triple, which isn’t gonna happen.

 

[2TH MVR]

Do you think the fact that the Georgia School of Orthodontics increasing their class size to 36 a year will lead to decreasing salaries for orthodontists at corps?

Probably not. 36 additional orthos a yr isn't going to affect the ortho market substantially. What bothers me is that this program is starting to resemble a trade school instead of a competative residency program. My class size was 4. There was pride in being selected to a small class size. 4 residents means individualized instruction. Think about that? All the support staff is putting all their energy into ....... 4 residents.

Also .... with more ortho spots .... means that the applicant pool just keeps on getting more and more diluted.

 

[Cold Front]

20 yrs ago .... orthodontists were the envy of our dental colleagues. Inside the Corp I work for .... the envy is still there. Not much has changed.

I’m going out on a limb here, but I know orthodontists from my class who see the doom and gloom side of the profession after 10 years in the field. They both carried $700k+ debt after they finished ortho residency, and this was back in 2013. I would assume $700k+ in debt after ortho residency is more common now. The OP’s situation is rare. It’s rare to go to a dental school for $200k these days - that’s less than $50k/yr including cost of living and interest. Heck, my local state is $400k for a DDS.

So from strictly numbers point of view, I think the debt to become a dentist is infinitely rising, then tack on an increasing ortho residency cost, which only mounts to more debt after the interest. Meanwhile, how much did ortho fees go up last 20 years? I haven’t looked it up, but I’m sure it didn’t double. The economics of the dental profession is poorly understood. As far as income, too many reference points from different levels of experience, locations and type of practice that doesn’t narrow down if any of them can cover the large upfront cost in student debt comfortably. 20 years ago... the world was a different place and the student debt was fraction of where it is today, while the dental income needle barely moved.

 

[2TH MVR]

I’m going out on a limb here, but I know orthodontists from my class who see the doom and gloom side of the profession after 10 years in the field. They both carried $700k+ debt after they finished ortho residency, and this was back in 2013. I would assume $700k+ in debt after ortho residency is more common now. The OP’s situation is rare. It’s rare to go to a dental school for $200k these days - that’s less than $50k/yr including cost of living and interest. Heck, my local state is $400k for a DDS.

So from strictly numbers point of view, I think the debt to become a dentist is infinitely rising, then tack on an increasing ortho residency cost, which only mounts to more debt after the interest. Meanwhile, how much did ortho fees go up last 20 years? I haven’t looked it up, but I’m sure it didn’t double. The economics of the dental profession is poorly understood. As far as income, too many reference points from different levels of experience, locations and type of practice that doesn’t narrow down if any of them can cover the large upfront cost in student debt comfortably. 20 years ago... the world was a different place and the student debt was fraction of where it is today, while the dental income needle barely moved.

I agree with everything you posted. You cannot compare past generations and current generations. I get it. I cannot imagine borrowing 700K to become an orthodontist. Esp when my TOTAL debt was less than 100K. 100K in the early 90's is probably more like 180K now.

It's been said many times not to go into ortho for the money. Esp if you are borrowing 700K. The same has been said about general dentistry if the loan is too much. But would 500K be worth it for ortho? Charles would say yes since he works very hard. Has a high income producing spouse. 500K is doable, but any debt this size will be stressful.

The ortho profession has changed .... and not for the better economically speaking. The part about the envy is the type of work orthos do. So much easier than general. I actually like to treat ortho pts. It's like every patient is an unfinished portrait. Every adjustment is adding brush strokes to finishing a perfect painting. Wow. That's corny lol.

 

[charlestweed]

... Charles would say yes since he works very hard. Has a high income producing spouse. 500K is doable, but any debt this size will be stressful....

Marrying someone with a stable full time job was one of my goals in life….can’t be someone who majors in art, music, or other non-science majors. To achieve this goal during my dental school years, I attended a lot of social events that were hosted by the local optometry, pharmacy, dental schools. In case something happens to me, my wife can continue to support our kids financially. And my wife agreed to marry me for the same reason. She believed I had the qualities to be the man of the house…someone who can provide for the family.

Having some debts actually helps motivate you to work harder. And hard work allows you to come up with good business ideas that help your business thrive such as keeping overhead low, being more efficient clinically, working on the days and hours (weekends) that most other offices don't open etc.

 

[Cold Front]

I agree with everything you posted. You cannot compare past generations and current generations. I get it. I cannot imagine borrowing 700K to become an orthodontist. Esp when my TOTAL debt was less than 100K. 100K in the early 90's is probably more like 180K now.

It's been said many times not to go into ortho for the money. Esp if you are borrowing 700K. The same has been said about general dentistry if the loan is too much. But would 500K be worth it for ortho? Charles would say yes since he works very hard. Has a high income producing spouse. 500K is doable, but any debt this size will be stressful.

The ortho profession has changed .... and not for the better economically speaking. The part about the envy is the type of work orthos do. So much easier than general. I actually like to treat ortho pts. It's like every patient is an unfinished portrait. Every adjustment is adding brush strokes to finishing a perfect painting. Wow. That's corny lol.

Exactly. That’s an intellectually honest analysis of the reality of the ortho debt.

Ortho classes are filling up regardless of the debt. Many will raise their hands and take that $700k+ of debt. The schools can easily make the cost $1M, and yes, someone will apply. It’s just one of the puzzling things about this debt madness. No cost is too high so far.

With the “work hard” mindset, the fruits of hard work are now hanging further and further up the tree. Our patients (and their insurances) pay our paychecks (and they are reluctant to increase that pay, specially during bad times) and that’s not going to help anyone who works harder in the future easily get closer to those fruits. It’s like making the case for a track and field athletes to keep breaking the previous generations records easily... the odds of that happening gets less and less every year.

Ortho, clinically, is a dream job. But that dream job is losing its shine to high student debt and stagnant insurance reimbursement fees.

 

[blablabla1]

Exactly. That’s an intellectually honest analysis of the reality of the ortho debt.

Ortho classes are filling up regardless of the debt. Many will raise their hands and take that $700k+ of debt. The schools can easily make the cost $1M, and yes, someone will apply. It’s just one of the puzzling things about this debt madness. No cost is too high so far.

With the “work hard” mindset, the fruits of hard work are now hanging further and further up the tree. Our patients (and their insurances) pay our paychecks (and they are reluctant to increase that pay, specially during bad times) and that’s not going to help anyone who works harder in the future easily get closer to those fruits. It’s like making the case for a track and field athletes to keep breaking the previous generations records easily... the odds of that happening gets less and less every year.

Ortho, clinically, is a dream job. But that dream job is losing its shine to high student debt and stagnant insurance reimbursement fees.

If I was going to finish ortho residency with more than the 350k in debt that I will end up with, I probably would have really reconsidered my decision to do it.

I can't imagine having 400-500k from dental school itself and then deciding to take on another 200-300k, even for a job like ortho.

 

[sonotsure]

I forgot to update this post after match day but I will be going to one of the more expensive ortho programs lol to be fair nearly all of the programs on my interview list were pricey (within 50k of each other) but I ideally wanted to apply once and be done with ortho applications forever.

Ultimately I decided that the cost of tuition for ortho residency in a city that I am happy to live in is worth it for me but I definitely wouldn't recommend people take this decision lightly, especially if dental school debt comes out to be more than what I'd be paying for DDS and ortho combined (scary thought).

Yes, I definitely get anxious about the thought of graduating and feeling the burden of my debt but I'm hoping like @charlestweed mentioned I'll be motivated to work very hard and thankfully be doing it in a field I love.

 

[PerioDont]

I forgot to update this post after match day but I will be going to one of the more expensive ortho programs lol to be fair nearly all of the programs on my interview list were pricey (within 50k of each other) but I ideally wanted to apply once and be done with ortho applications forever.

Ultimately I decided that the cost of tuition for ortho residency in a city that I am happy to live in is worth it for me but I definitely wouldn't recommend people take this decision lightly, especially if dental school debt comes out to be more than what I'd be paying for DDS and ortho combined (scary thought).

Yes, I definitely get anxious about the thought of graduating and feeling the burden of my debt but I'm hoping like @charlestweed mentioned I'll be motivated to work very hard and thankfully be doing it in a field I love.

Curious what your total debt burden will be? you are still not in a terrible position comparatively with just 200k from DS.

unfortunately I have met many orthos, endos, perios, even prosth etc that are in it for 700k+. Some 900k+. its a crazy, crazy world.

At some point it is time to stop cutting bait and start fishing.

 

[sonotsure]

Curious what your total debt burden will be? you are still not in a terrible position comparatively with just 200k from DS.

I know, I feel fortunate for that and I was able to live at home during DS so that saved me a good amount.
My ortho program will be about 260k without living expenses but its in a major US city so im not anticipating cheap rent unfortunately. Still excited though!