Decisions

[deleted820760]

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Hi guys,

For the wonderful pharmacists who have been in the profession for awhile, how bad do things have to get for you to consider leaving the profession? It seems like practically all the pharmacists I know say they are just happy to have a job, but none of them are actually happy. Are you ok with staying in the profession regardless of working conditions, as long as you get a paycheck?

 

[deleted820760]

No one is gonna pay me this much without further education, working a ton of hours or taking a major risk.... for example, starting my own company, buying a franchise, etc.

So I'm riding the as long as possible.

That seems to be what most people are doing. I’m just wondering if the money is worth us sacrificing our health and happiness. I’m struggling to decide if I should walk away from the profession that I love because of what it’s become. It’s only getting worse.

Our situation reminds me of the frog in the pot of water. The temperature gets turned up little by little so the frog doesn’t jump out to save itself. Then when it gets too hot, he can’t jump out and dies.

 

[Pronounce Doxazosin]

They’re more likely to fire me before I quit

 

[TranslationalRPh]

I am biased. I believe you deserve to be happy, including having fulfilling work. I love what I do but admittedly do not practice in a traditional setting. (My job is typically held by physicians.) Depending on how one looks at it, it is fair to conclude that I began working on my departure from traditional pharmacy practice immediately upon graduating. I graduated during a heyday, so I guess my tolerance is super low. Sometimes you just know you.

 

[rxkrafted]

I feel like every pharmacist friend/co-worker that I know have another source of income, whether it be real-estate or selling specific stuff online. I wouldn't completely abandon my profession until I get let go by my employer... and by then, i'd slowly transition into my second source of income and make it my full-time gig.

 

[TranslationalRPh]

What do you do?

Clinical Development lead/Clinical Director in pharma.

 

[TateThePharmacist]

Our situation reminds me of the frog in the pot of water. The temperature gets turned up little by little so the frog doesn’t jump out to save itself. Then when it gets too hot, he can’t jump out and dies.

The water started boiling when your student loans were disbursed P1 year

 

[mentos]

Quitting now or anytime in the future would be career suicide for anyone hired before this year. Most of us here make over $60/hr and if we go to a new job, it will probably only pay $50/hr or less. Hard to give up that much money when you're already used to your lifestyle.

As much as pharmacists complain, consider how hard it is to make $50/hr anywhere else. I just saw the "Hot Girls Wanted" documentary on Netflix about amateur porn stars. I thought they'd make hundreds of thousands per year. Former star Stella May lasted 4 months in the industry and only made $25,000 during that time. By the time she returned home, she only had $2,000 left in her bank account.

 

[JustFillIt]

Quitting now or anytime in the future would be career suicide for anyone hired before this year. Most of us here make over $60/hr and if we go to a new job, it will probably only pay $50/hr or less. Hard to give up that much money when you're already used to your lifestyle.

As much as pharmacists complain, consider how hard it is to make $50/hr anywhere else. I just saw the "Hot Girls Wanted" documentary on Netflix about amateur porn stars. I thought they'd make hundreds of thousands per year. Former star Stella May lasted 4 months in the industry and only made $25,000 during that time. By the time she returned home, she only had $2,000 left in her bank account.

I would be a porn actor. Unfortunately no one wants to watch “Beached Whale Goes Downtown”

Haha - I love coming up with a good porno movie title.

 

[lord999]

The problem is what the reason behind why you are leaving. If it is over the actual work (I just don't wanna see another *@#$ing miswritten Amoxicillin ever again), I think leaving is the right decision as the problem is the work. If it is over personnel or management, that's not a good reason to leave the profession, but the right decision for leaving your position.

Problem is that they are cumulative, you can lose the love for the work due to the people, and many in management lose the love for people due to them already being alienated from the work. There's a reason why management has a higher population of narcissists, psychopaths, and sociopaths. Learning to manage these sorts of people is a skill that you will need in any job, and no matter where you go, you will have to deal with them unless you set yourself up for direct customer service.

To give you an example on the "pleasures" of management, someone I know just set up someone to get fired from a successful Administrative Investigation Board which is exceedingly difficult. It took four years of careful planning, keeping records, finding the right Inspector, setting it up for that Inspector to be assigned, and delivering an airtight case to that person's hands with a watertight write-up, but we all saw the final Merit Systems Protection Board appeal fail last month after two years of administrative leave so that person is gone at last. Everyone in management has figured it out including the fired employee, but even that person cannot do anything about it as the setup is too indirect for any sort of direct challenge or retaliation (and also, the fired employee's issues are all true, but they usually get ignored unless they are a behavioral problem). The cruel beauty and appreciation of the calculative nature to work the system that hard in such a project is the sort of thing bureaucracy teaches you to enjoy.

You can't let these people win over you. The more you are perceived to care, the more likely that some sociopathic supervisor is going to figure that out and use you accordingly.

Also, I can't respond to what you wrote as for some reason, I'm blocked from replying even though you initiated.

 

[deleted820760]

The problem is what the reason behind why you are leaving. If it is over the actual work (I just don't wanna see another *@#$ing miswritten Amoxicillin ever again), I think leaving is the right decision as the problem is the work. If it is over personnel or management, that's not a good reason to leave the profession, but the right decision for leaving your position.

Problem is that they are cumulative, you can lose the love for the work due to the people, and many in management lose the love for people due to them already being alienated from the work. There's a reason why management has a higher population of narcissists, psychopaths, and sociopaths. Learning to manage these sorts of people is a skill that you will need in any job, and no matter where you go, you will have to deal with them unless you set yourself up for direct customer service.

To give you an example on the "pleasures" of management, someone I know just set up someone to get fired from a successful Administrative Investigation Board which is exceedingly difficult. It took four years of careful planning, keeping records, finding the right Inspector, setting it up for that Inspector to be assigned, and delivering an airtight case to that person's hands with a watertight write-up, but we all saw the final Merit Systems Protection Board appeal fail last month after two years of administrative leave so that person is gone at last. Everyone in management has figured it out including the fired employee, but even that person cannot do anything about it as the setup is too indirect for any sort of direct challenge or retaliation (and also, the fired employee's issues are all true, but they usually get ignored unless they are a behavioral problem). The cruel beauty and appreciation of the calculative nature to work the system that hard in such a project is the sort of thing bureaucracy teaches you to enjoy.

You can't let these people win over you. The more you are perceived to care, the more likely that some sociopathic supervisor is going to figure that out and use you accordingly.

Also, I can't respond to what you wrote as for some reason, I'm blocked from replying even though you initiated.

Thanks for the response. I only got your message asking if I got your response. I'm not sure what the glitch was, but I hope it's fixed.

I love the work, and I'm passionate about patient care. The problem is the other nonsense like incompetent or sociopathic management.

A lot of my friends that are amazing pharmacists have left traditional pharmacy roles, even the ones who have done residency. They had similar reasons, and got out years ago. Quite a few do informatics and work with Epic. Some are going to PA or dental school. I stayed because I love being a pharmacist, and I guess I just kept hoping that things would improve. They only got worse. Sigh. I asked my friends if they regret leaving hospital pharmacy, especially since they were so good at their jobs, they all said no. lol. They said they loved the work, but hated the mismanagement of the pharmacy and the politics. They don't have much stress now in their new roles, and they have better hours, too.

You know a profession is going downhill when the best and brightest are leaving the profession in droves. I can't imagine doing 2 years of residency, only to leave the profession within 5 years.

 

[lord999]

Epic is a cult masquerading as a company. The only reason that Epic isn't a religion is Intersystems not willing to go that far. The PA's have the same fate, you rarely see old ones, and I get an interesting feeling that PA's and NP's are about to learn the hard way what ageism and saturation is. Dentists by and large have good jobs even when employed, but the training and debt levels are high, and it traditionally has a subpopulation that is extremely burned out.

I don't have good advice beyond the following. If you are going to change occupations, you need to change it to one where you pick the boss. Really high end developers can do this, physicians have some limited autonomy as well in that regard. However, if you want something, someone wants it more and is willing to sacrifice more than you are. You need to pick a work environment where you're ok with the "winners" terms to you. Institutional pharmacy is always management driven in the sense that they really do screw up environments.

 

[deleted820760]

Epic is a cult masquerading as a company. The only reason that Epic isn't a religion is Intersystems not willing to go that far. The PA's have the same fate, you rarely see old ones, and I get an interesting feeling that PA's and NP's are about to learn the hard way what ageism and saturation is. Dentists by and large have good jobs even when employed, but the training and debt levels are high, and it traditionally has a subpopulation that is extremely burned out.

I don't have good advice beyond the following. If you are going to change occupations, you need to change it to one where you pick the boss. Really high end developers can do this, physicians have some limited autonomy as well in that regard. However, if you want something, someone wants it more and is willing to sacrifice more than you are. You need to pick a work environment where you're ok with the "winners" terms to you. Institutional pharmacy is always management driven in the sense that they really do screw up environments.

Interesting. You're right. Why don't I ever see old PAs and NPs? Their market isn't saturated yet. Where do the old ones go?

I've had the pleasure of working with some amazing physicians, and most of them say they will do anything they can to discourage their own children from going to medical school. They say the profession isn't what it used to be, and they despise administration as well. lol. I mean despise!

 

[Sine Cura]

Old PAs are stuck working for crappy FQHCs or look-alikes if they didn't make bank when younger (like doling out chronic opioid Rx left and right)

 

[Marzapan]

Our situation reminds me of the frog in the pot of water. The temperature gets turned up little by little so the frog doesn’t jump out to save itself. Then when it gets too hot, he can’t jump out and dies.

I'd say that the pharmacy situation is like the crabs in a pot analogy. When one tries to escape/get out of the pot (leave retail or hospital, or get a promotion), the others drag them down (jealousy or pettiness-induced actions designed to subvert the efforts of others. Could manifest as sucking up harder than others if it's a competition between two floaters pharmacists for a staff position, hiring a fresh PGY-1 residency grad over a non-residency trained pharmacist with 10 years hospital position for a clinical hospital pharmacist role, automatically tossing out CVs or retail/hospital pharmacists who apply to industry jobs etc).

It may not be TOO bad to have this happen from time to time (probably normal for any job/career); however the difference with pharmacy is that a fire was lit under the pot several years ago (automation) so it's "get out or die" mentality now. But for some reason there are still crabs who want to go in the pot (pre-pharms) because they want to be like the other crabs, so they're going to be in for a rude awakening..

 

[lord999]

Interesting. You're right. Why don't I ever see old PAs and NPs? Their market isn't saturated yet. Where do the old ones go?

I've had the pleasure of working with some amazing physicians, and most of them say they will do anything they can to discourage their own children from going to medical school. They say the profession isn't what it used to be, and they despise administration as well. lol. I mean despise!

The old ones end up in government if not unemployed. We get them cheap like the dental hygienists. For its faults, pharmacy is one of the health professions that doesn't hinge on impressing any particular person. You can be an antisocial ugly troll and hospital management won't get rid of you. (Although, the jury is out on clinical pharmacists on the floor.) But occupations that require you impress a single person are ones for the young as reps, hygienists, and PA's find out once they hit a certain ceiling (and the competent ones do).

If I had children, I would actually tell them if they wanted to enter a health profession to either get the MBA or MPA for a Tier 1 alongside it and go into administration. Being part of the problem actually is not as easy as it sounds despite the perspective. At least clinicians have relatively simple patients to deal with, while administrators have to deal with the complications each other. I spend many more hours thinking about my read on a situation than doing something about it. There are plenty of days where I wish I just worked.

 

[DoctorRx1986]

Screw going back to school after already spending 6-8 years after high school . Off topic but I’d say a better choice these days is either establish your own business or invest in assets that build wealth and where there is no limit on income potential . Personally, I live in SFL and plan on getting my realtor license and getting my feet wet . Initially , I plan on focusing on selling typical homes that are for the middle class as a start but my objective is to focus on high-end real estate and selling apartments/houses to the wealthy . Imagine - selling one luxury, waterfront condo for $3 million in south Florida to a Latin American or European family looking for a vacation home ; let’s just say 3% commission in earnings and you’d make $90,000 just from that one apartment . Do that a few times throughout the year , collect the earnings and use it to purchase a home and rent it out . Follow the process 2, 3, 4 times and before you know it you’ve made hundreds of thousands of dollars and have invested in rental properties you can now make money from . Bingo - passive income and you’re no longer depending on some W-2 job where income potential is limited and working conditions continue to deteriorate . Not saying this is all easy and that challenges will not be present but it’s a better idea than going to nursing or medical school and taking on more debt and working like a slave. If you happen to live in a part of the country where high end properties are ubiquitous , this idea is feasible . It is easier to sell one $3 million home than it is to sell 10 at $300k each . Get your realtor license , experience , fall down and pick yourself up again , establish a network and get your name out there and the idea works . I’m going for it . No more schooling . No more student loans . The sky is the limit.

 

[TateThePharmacist]

Screw going back to school after already spending 6-8 years after high school . Off topic but I’d say a better choice these days is either establish your own business or invest in assets that build wealth and where there is no limit on income potential . Personally, I live in SFL and plan on getting my realtor license and getting my feet wet . Initially , I plan on focusing on selling typical homes that are for the middle class as a start but my objective is to focus on high-end real estate and selling apartments/houses to the wealthy . Imagine - selling one luxury, waterfront condo for $3 million in south Florida to a Latin American or European family looking for a vacation home ; let’s just say 3% commission in earnings and you’d make $90,000 just from that one apartment . Do that a few times throughout the year , collect the earnings and use it to purchase a home and rent it out . Follow the process 2, 3, 4 times and before you know it you’ve made hundreds of thousands of dollars and have invested in rental properties you can now make money from . Bingo - passive income and you’re no longer depending on some W-2 job where income potential is limited and working conditions continue to deteriorate . Not saying this is all easy and that challenges will not be present but it’s a better idea than going to nursing or medical school and taking on more debt and working like a slave. If you happen to live in a part of the country where high end properties are ubiquitous , this idea is feasible . It is easier to sell one $3 million home than it is to sell 10 at $300k each . Get your realtor license , experience , fall down and pick yourself up again , establish a network and get your name out there and the idea works . I’m going for it . No more schooling . No more student loans . The sky is the limit.

You.....uh....realize you can do that on a pharmacist salary as well right? I mean the building a real estate empire. It takes a bit of time, and you have to be super careful about what you purchase and who you rent to, but it's definitely doable.

 

[deleted820760]

You.....uh....realize you can do that on a pharmacist salary as well right? I mean the building a real estate empire. It takes a bit of time, and you have to be super careful about what you purchase and who you rent to, but it's definitely doable.

Is it really doable while working full time as a pharmacist?

 

[deleted820760]

I wonder if opening up a gun shop would be a good idea. People here sure love their guns, so there will always be money in it.

I wouldn’t do it personally since I’m anti-gun, but for the people who are pro-gun, it’s an option.

 

[lord999]

Is it really doable while working full time as a pharmacist?

Yes, there's quite a number of pharmacists that run strip mall commercial space as well as own their own pharmacy. Unfortunately, they are really badly right now to the point that I've been offered to buy out some of them. I probably will on a couple as I have some utility to buy the strip malls near my home and the prices are near steals with the cash flow issues they are having. Looking for 0.20 on the dollar (it's right now 0.35 or so on the dollar in my area).

Gun shops are not profitable the same way that book stores are not profitable. It's a passion project, so the margins are really low as well as hedge fund dynamics. My suggestion is always to go into a business that a bank will not give you a loan for or a stock market can list, because the entry barrier becomes too high for a hedge fund or financialization to work. A pharmacist I know in AZ has a practice that pairs up with her ownership of such a business for "reproductive health" issues and is quite successful deep in ostensibly LDS territory.

 

[ValeRx]

This is a great song by Borgore.

 

[bacillus1]

I think there are problems with every job, and no job is perfect. I have been in terrible work environments before that have made me quit. However, although many days I want to bang my head against the wall at my current position due to typical government inefficiency, I am treated well and get a nice paycheck...so at the end of the day it's just a job, not my life's purpose. I still apply for other jobs that I may find more fulfilling, but have made my peace with where I am now.

 

[johnpharm01]

This is a great song by Borgore.

You consider that music?

 

[deleted820760]

I’ve never really considered a job in industry or managed care due to ethical reasons. Those jobs probably aren’t easy to get anyway. However, pharmacists seem to be happier working in industry and managed care than in retail or hospital. Do you guys think pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies are the devil, too? How do you deal with the cognitive dissonance of working for them, knowing they screw over patients and pharmacists? I need tips on becoming more selfish and getting rid of my conscience. Lol.

 

[PharmtoCS]

I’ve never really considered a job in industry or managed care due to ethical reasons. Those jobs probably aren’t easy to get anyway. However, pharmacists seem to be happier working in industry and managed care than in retail or hospital. Do you guys think pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies are the devil, too? How do you deal with the cognitive dissonance of working for them, knowing they screw over patients and pharmacists? I need tips on becoming more selfish and getting rid of my conscience. Lol.

At least you are honest and still have ethical standards.

Most of the pre-pharms today say they are "passionate" about pharmacy and want to "help others" yet would jump on any opportunity to make others worse off as long as they get to enjoy a cush, higher paying job.

 

[deleted820760]

At least you are honest and still have ethical standards.

Most of the pre-pharms today say they are "passionate" about pharmacy and want to "help others" yet would jump on any opportunity to make others worse off as long as they get to enjoy a cush, higher paying job.

The unethical people with no morals get ahead in life. They’re willing to do anything, and exploit anybody for their own self interests. Sigh.

 

[deleted562805]

The unethical people with no morals get ahead in life. They’re willing to do anything, and exploit anybody for their own self interests. Sigh.

Only in this world. Not in the kingdom of heaven on earth.

 

[deleted562805]

I’ve never really considered a job in industry or managed care due to ethical reasons. Those jobs probably aren’t easy to get anyway. However, pharmacists seem to be happier working in industry and managed care than in retail or hospital. Do you guys think pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies are the devil, too? How do you deal with the cognitive dissonance of working for them, knowing they screw over patients and pharmacists? I need tips on becoming more selfish and getting rid of my conscience. Lol.

Good point. I probably would not do it either, especially Bio tech companies involved with Biometrics.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Dentists by and large have good jobs even when employed, but the training and debt levels are high, and it traditionally has a subpopulation that is extremely burned out.

Dentists work is literally back-breaking.

Interesting. You're right. Why don't I ever see old PAs and NPs? Their market isn't saturated yet. Where do the old ones go?

There aren't that many old ones, comparatively. NP's/PA's were fairly non-existent in most areas of the country, until around the mid-90's. Ever since then, they have been exponentially increasing.

It is easier to sell one $3 million home than it is to sell 10 at $300k each.

Hahaha, sure it is. Just like it's easier to see 1 RX of Harvoni, then it would be to sell 100 RX's lisinopril.

 

[ValeRx]

You consider that music?

Here's a better one:

 

[deleted820760]

I’m considering a career switch. The problem is, it’s hard to know what a certain profession is like until you’re in it. Even shadowing doesn’t give you the full picture. It’s also hard to know how easy it will be to find a good job.
For example, I’ve read so much online about how software engineering is great, and all these people got great jobs with just a bootcamp certificate.

Then I read what people wrote on Reddit, and it’s a completely different story. They’re saying they got a bachelors in computer science from a top 10 university, and they’ve been unemployed for 2 years. It’s hard to know what to believe online.

I like to make informed decisions, but it’s hard to really get accurate information. BLS has its limitations. We learned the hard, expensive way with pharmacy. They kept projecting shortages by 2020, and the market was saturated by 2009.

I was considering possibly making the switch to engineering, but in the medical forums, so many engineers are seeking advice on switching to medicine. I’m really confused by this, because engineering seems like a really good career. I wonder why they’re leaving in droves. Do you guys personally know a lot of engineers? Are they happy? Why would so many want to switch to medicine?

 

[radio frequency]

My job satisfaction hinges strongly on my length of service (as the fringe benefits, pay, and working shifts improve with time), so I’m probably going to stick it out as long as they keep paying me. I’m stacking a lot of money away though; maybe about half my salary? So I’m not quitting. I’m sticking it out until they won’t have me anymore. If I was at Walgreens or CVS or another retailer, I would already have left the profession.

My first pick alternative if something goes wrong is probably to enter real estate. I wouldn’t do it where I live as the homes are not expensive enough to make the commission worthwhile. I’d move to a more expensive region and hit up a friend who is successful in this endeavor already.

Second pick option is sales with a goal of selling pretty much anything with a high commission. Likely business to business.

 

[Marzapan]

I’m considering a career switch. The problem is, it’s hard to know what a certain profession is like until you’re in it. Even shadowing doesn’t give you the full picture. It’s also hard to know how easy it will be to find a good job.
For example, I’ve read so much online about how software engineering is great, and all these people got great jobs with just a bootcamp certificate.

Then I read what people wrote on Reddit, and it’s a completely different story. They’re saying they got a bachelors in computer science from a top 10 university, and they’ve been unemployed for 2 years. It’s hard to know what to believe online.

I like to make informed decisions, but it’s hard to really get accurate information. BLS has its limitations. We learned the hard, expensive way with pharmacy. They kept projecting shortages by 2020, and the market was saturated by 2009.

I was considering possibly making the switch to engineering, but in the medical forums, so many engineers are seeking advice on switching to medicine. I’m really confused by this, because engineering seems like a really good career. I wonder why they’re leaving in droves. Do you guys personally know a lot of engineers? Are they happy? Why would so many want to switch to medicine?

Well if the engineering subs are anything like the pharmacy subs on Reddit, then the big difference between Reddit and SDN is the community/user base. At SDN, you can safely assume that everyone who posts lives in the U.S. On Reddit, I can't tell you how many times I've seen posts asking about career advice, complaining about pay etc... only to find out that OP doesn't even live in the U.S. (Canada, India and the UK seem to be the three most popular).

Point is, if Reddit is an international forum then I wouldn't be surprised if these graduates from "top 10 engineering schools" were graduates living in India trying to find jobs in the U.S., because they always conveniently leave out the fact that they also need sponsorship etc. which is a deal breaker for a lot of companies. It's a similar concept to foreign pharmacists looking for jobs in the U.S.

 

[quickpic007]

I’m considering a career switch. The problem is, it’s hard to know what a certain profession is like until you’re in it. Even shadowing doesn’t give you the full picture. It’s also hard to know how easy it will be to find a good job.
For example, I’ve read so much online about how software engineering is great, and all these people got great jobs with just a bootcamp certificate.

Then I read what people wrote on Reddit, and it’s a completely different story. They’re saying they got a bachelors in computer science from a top 10 university, and they’ve been unemployed for 2 years. It’s hard to know what to believe online.

I like to make informed decisions, but it’s hard to really get accurate information. BLS has its limitations. We learned the hard, expensive way with pharmacy. They kept projecting shortages by 2020, and the market was saturated by 2009.

I was considering possibly making the switch to engineering, but in the medical forums, so many engineers are seeking advice on switching to medicine. I’m really confused by this, because engineering seems like a really good career. I wonder why they’re leaving in droves. Do you guys personally know a lot of engineers? Are they happy? Why would so many want to switch to medicine?

What I heavily weigh is the cost to entry/expected return and regional availability.

If I lost my rph license today, I could begin diesel mechanic apprenticeship tomorrow in my area (no tuition). Do that while training for a CDL. Run hazmat/tanker regional/local until oilfield heats up. Move to TX or ND. Use my rph bankroll to buy truck and trailer and make it!

going from any "profession" to MD will rarely make sense when you can become a programmer/rn/salesperson/truck driver for 100k+ with so little schooling.