Decline in international MD/PhD acceptances

[minniebot]

I'm an international student planning on applying to MD/PhD programs in the upcoming cycle. I knew this was going to be an uphill battle and that things would be stacked against me as an international student so last year I made a spreadsheet including every program that said they accepted international students and looked up on MSAR the actual number of international students matriculated. I recently revisited this list/MSAR and realized almost every single program on my list that previously matriculated international students didn't matriculate a single international student in the most recent cycle. Even UPenn that previously had a class with 6/22 matriculated students being international (according to MSAR) has gone down to 0. Is there any particular reason for this that I should be aware of like a recent change in funding or are there just fewer international students applying?

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[Maebea]

Would you mind sharing your spreadsheet? I had a number of international applicants to my program last year, and I know that 9 of them enrolled in MD-PhD programs. Perhaps MSAR is wrong.

 

[evasive fish]

Would you mind sharing your spreadsheet? I had a number of international applicants to my program last year, and I know that 9 of them enrolled in MD-PhD programs. Perhaps MSAR is wrong.

Hey @Maebea , you mentioned in an older post (What am I doing wrong? What do I do? Getting desperate) that you receive about 50 applications from internationals at your school, from which about 20% end up matriculating into an MD-PhD program. This post was from 2014. In the recent years, have you seen any significant change in international students' applications at your school (e.g. more, less or roughly the same # of apps from internationals)? I just want to have a general idea of the potential current competitiveness for internationals these days.

 

[nonamesleft]

i'm an international at my school. The school doesn't advertise that they take internationals for the MD/PhD program. However, I've maintained an interest in seeing who gets invited for interviews, and there has been a consistent number of internationals interviewed since I've matriculated (a while ago).

 

[dl2dp2]

As I said in a different thread: this international student thing was all smoke and mirrors. I felt similarly as you did when I applied, but it turned out to be a complete joke: nobody cared. Your application strategy basically does not change regardless of whether you are international or not. If you have a F or J visa, your status won't change anyway during the next few years--it may change to H if you get a job, but it won't help you. If you are in adjustment of status stage, you should just put down that you already have a greencard. Nobody cross checks with USCIS, and by the time you get in, you'll have your greencard, or at worst waiting for I-485, which means that you no longer need an F-1 visa.

International students often don't know how things work in the US. This is how it works in America: nobody cares about written down rules, which invariably have exceptions, and exceptions can often be CREATED, and everyone tries to find as many loopholes as possible. Try to convince yourself and everyone else that you are so good that any procedural exceptions should be MADE FOR YOU because you are such a great fit for this program. It does not matter that Penn didn't take any internationals. You are the one that Penn will take an exception to this year. Structure your entire narrative in that way. America does not reward rule-followers.

If you don't start thinking like you have to follow every rule you'll never survive in science. Why bother even apply in the first place? R01 funding rate is in the single digits at some ICs--your life consists of applying to Harvard every 4 months for the rest of your life. All available rules that are out there to be used against you in succeeding in the long run will be used by someone, and it's always your job to make an argument that this rule shouldn't apply to you for X Y Z reasons so you can in a rule-compliant way bypass it.

 

[Fencer]

Background checks will catch you. If you lied in your application, you would likely lie while doing science. That is grounds for rescinding an application.

 

[dl2dp2]

Background checks will catch you. If you lied in your application, you would likely lie while doing science. That is grounds for rescinding an application.

Agree 100%. Never outright lie on any application. However, always attempt to take advantage of as many legal loophole/ambiguity as possible. For example, in the above scenario, if you have a straight F1 visa, you can't put down that you have a greencard--that'll get caught. You also can't outright lie about your CV when you apply for a job. However, once you are in the adjustment of status stage, you no longer have an official visa status (and cannot exit the country, unless you apply for something called Advance Parole--see: exception to every rule), you are no longer an international student, and an A number is made available to you. Hence you could say that you are a "permanent resident" but the greencard itself isn't printed out yet. This would be a "gray zone". Whenever you are in a gray zone, it's up to you to take advantage of it. Similarly, if you are ambiguously an underrepresented ethnic minority (i.e. born in Mexico but ethnically Jewish) or have some other hook, you should clearly indicate this in applications. This also applies to science. The unfortunate reality is even with all the consequences, people still lie in science constantly like making data up in your face and get away with it all the time. Never outright make up any data (or face the potential consequences), but how you present the data you have to tell a story such that it's in your favor is critical to your career advancement, as is your ability to pay attention to details and exceptions in rules and advocate for yourself in creative ways. For example, various grant applications have various rules associated with length/funding restrictions/time from training etc, but often exceptions can be made for a variety of reasons including childbearing, caring for elderly parents, disabilities etc. If you don't ask you won't know. Secondarily, if you think a rule is "not fair", you can always present an argument to a stakeholder to make an attempt to change it, if only for your particular case. These maneuvers are always associated with risks, and whether you do something vs nothing requires some thought.

 

[Fencer]

The 2018 AAMC table B-7 shows that there were 125 MD/PhD applicants (out of 1855) who were not US Citizens or Permanent Residents. The 2018 AAMC table B-9 shows 13 MD/PhD matriculants who were not US Citizens or Permanent Residents.

We interviewed a couple of those international applicants, and offered to one of them, who elected matriculating into another MSTP. I also know that several MSTPs matriculated these 13 students including Emory, Harvard (2), Mayo, Vanderbilt, and Washington Univ. STL (3), and the Jefferson's MD/PhD program also took 1 international applicant.

 

[evasive fish]

The 2018 AAMC table B-7 shows that there were 125 MD/PhD applicants (out of 1855) who were not US Citizens or Permanent Residents. The 2018 AAMC table B-9 shows 13 MD/PhD matriculants who were not US Citizens or Permanent Residents.

We interviewed a couple of those international applicants, and offered to one of them, who elected matriculating into another MSTP. I also know that several MSTPs matriculated these 13 students including Emory, Harvard (2), Mayo, Vanderbilt, and Washington Univ. STL (3), and the Jefferson's MD/PhD program also took 1 international applicant.

Thank you, @Fencer , for summarizing and sharing this info with us!

 

[ClinicianScientist]

This year I know that at least 3 international students were accepted to Penn’s MSTP, and at least 2 at Washu.

 

[pinguadelie]

https://www.aamc.org/system/files/2019-12/2019_FACTS_Table_B-7.pdf

https://www.aamc.org/system/files/2019-12/2019_FACTS_Table_B-9.pdf

25/125 Non-U.S. Citizen and NonPermanent Resident MD/PhD applicants matriculated in the 2019-2020 cycle