Defending DO

[frikarika]

So in class today a couple of people were discussing "who got in / rejected" at my state MD school, and I asked whether any of them applied to DO schools. The response I got was something like "DO? are you serious? I'm not going to resort to that just yet." Suffice it to say I was highly offended, I tried to explain that MD's and DO's are both doctors and they study the almost the same thing, just DO's learn OMM as well. To which one responded "Yeah well a witch doctor can also claim he is a doctor." I explained that DO's work alongside MD's and earn the exact same salary, to which one replied "Maybe so, but DO's are looked down upon by MD's, they are not respected by their peers." At this point I just gave up and explained they needed to actually do some research on DO's instead of relying on hearsay. What else could I have done?

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[MJB]

Assuming you are into a DO school, kindly remind them you'll be a med student while they are going through that darned process again for "pride".

I'm gonna be a doc, and I'm damned proud of it.

To my surprise, most people that ask me about it know what a DO is (or at least that they are the same as MD)...and congratulate me. I'm really looking forward to it.

 

[MJB]

Oh...and I don't "defend it". I simply tell them what it is, and how to learn more. If they want to "look down on DO's", that's their choice. I'm gonna be a PHYSICIAN.

 

[frikarika]

My thoughts exactly, it kinda made me wonder though...Do these people really want to be physicians to help people? or Do they just want the MD after their names and all the "respect and money" they will recieve? To me, I want to do primary care and I want to make an impact, and being a DO physician will allow me to accomplish that goal.

 

[GreenShirt]

I went to a college that's a fedder school for top 5 MD schools and I can tell you the term "DO" is never heard on campus. When I asked my pre-med advisor (a Harvard med grad) about applying to DO schools, she hastily shut my file and said "I don't think that's a good idea". Luckily, I looked into it anyway and now I'm going. I used to think it was beneath me b/c of the environment I was in, but it was all just ignorance. I don't care about precieved "prestige", I care about being a good doctor for my patients. I'm proud that I'm going to be a D.O.

 

[GreenShirt]

My thoughts exactly, it kinda made me wonder though...Do these people really want to be physicians to help people? or Do they just want the MD after their names and all the "respect and money" they will recieve? To me, I want to do primary care and I want to make an impact, and being a DO physician will allow me to accomplish that goal.

I think to some extent, all pre-meds are guilty of wanting the prestige. There's plenty of health careers out there that allow you to help people so why pick MD or DO? If prestige is all you can says, it's not going to get you far.

 

[sgratia]

I do not care about what my fellow classmates say. I am only worried about what will potential patients say and having to explain yourself often.

 

[lala83]

unfortunately, too much of the premed population is just like that. they're vultures to try to find anybody that they can look down upon. i don't know why i see this trend, among many (not all) premeds that i've come across.

MD look down on DOs, just the same way surgeons look down on primary care physicians. it really never ends, some people just need to grow up and learn to find what makes them happy in life without having to looking down on others to reassure them.

 

[scpod]

What else could I have done?

You could have forgotten about it because DOs don't need defending. If you somehow feel inferior because some one said that, then you need to readjust ur own feelings.

 

[Protease]

I do not care about what my fellow classmates say. I am only worried about what will potential patients say and having to explain yourself often.

If you can correctly diagnose and treat illness, disease, and deal with people of different backgrounds, the last thing a patient will care is what medical school (i.e. MD, DO, FMG, UPN, CBS, CNN, ESPN, and many more).

Most patients will not even notice your a DO, all they want is to be treated and discharged. Your collegues on the other hand, well lets just say it will be High School hierachy all over again.

My advice, get on the good side of the nurses, they inherently hate physicians(must be in the RN booklet, "All RNs required to hate Doctors").

If someone doesn't like you I advise that when the person is near a wall you check them into the wall like they do in hockey, use of skates optional (please see photo for clarity). That person will find your not someone to mess with quickly.

 

[DoctorMom78]

My father is an MD. He doesn't look down on DOs. The other MDs that he knows do not look down upon DOs. I know that there certainly are some who do, but I think that the whole DO vs MD argument is more of one among pre-meds and not in the workplace. Once you are practicing as a doctor and you prove yourself, the vast majority of people will not care about the initials after your name. Those who do, are not worth wasting your time worrying about. There will always be ignorant people in this world. Just smile and hold your head high.

I too am going into primary care medicine and know that I will get a wonderful education for this at an osteopathic school. I am very proud of where I am going and am not the least bit concerned about what other people think about that. True, I have had to explain osteopathic medicine to many people when I have told them where I was going to school. But, in reality many people don't even realize that their doctor is a DO. I told someone where I was going to med school and they said, "Hey, I THINK my doctor is a DO." He was. He is a neurologist and used to work with my father. But, the person didn't even realize that his doctor was a DO.

Your patients won't care about the initials after your name or where you went to medical school, but they will care about the quaility of care that you give them. Once you are through school and prove yourself, this silly debate won't matter anymore.

 

[ScootDoc]

Don't ever feel like you have to Defend your position. Be proud of it! You know the truth about your profession an that is all that should really matter. Some of the best docs I know are DOs. Surgeons, Rads, GAS, you name it. I would be very proud to call myself a DO. Who gives a crap about the uneducated idiots of this world (and unfortunately this profession) NO WONDER THEY DIDN'T GET ACCEPTED ANYWHERE....

Keep on smilin...you are gonna be a doc, and they will end up a PA/nurse/CNA or something down the road or something!! HA HA!! REVENGE ----> uh go wipe that old man's @$$

 

[frikarika]

You could have forgotten about it because DOs don't need defending. If you somehow feel inferior because some one said that, then you need to readjust ur own feelings.

I don't feel inferior at all. Actually I feel superior because I actually know the truth. It just really pissed me off how condecending they were. The whole "witch doctor" comment really irked me. But you're right, I should just forget about it, they are not worth my time.

 

[txkiteboarder]

i think it all depends on if particular area of the country has high number of DOs.

if other MDs get a chance to work with them, they will change their opinions. Isnt there a saying, "dont trash it, 'till you try it."

Here at school, I have noted public using our school gym notes how this or that DO was a much better doctor then a MD who immediately wanted to prescribe pills... I thought it was nice to hear that some in public do know the slight differences...

 

[txkiteboarder]

Don't ever feel like you have to Defend your position. Be proud of it! You know the truth about your profession an that is all that should really matter. Some of the best docs I know are DOs. Surgeons, Rads, GAS, you name it. I would be very proud to call myself a DO. Who gives a crap about the uneducated idiots of this world (and unfortunately this profession) NO WONDER THEY DIDN'T GET ACCEPTED ANYWHERE....

Keep on smilin...you are gonna be a doc, and they will end up a PA/nurse/CNA or something down the road or something!! HA HA!! REVENGE ----> uh go wipe that old man's @$$

so, what are you trying to say about PA/nurses/CNA?

 

[Krazykritter]

unfortunately, too much of the premed population is just like that. they're vultures to try to find anybody that they can look down upon. i don't know why i see this trend, among many (not all) premeds that i've come across.

MD look down on DOs, just the same way surgeons look down on primary care physicians. it really never ends, some people just need to grow up and learn to find what makes them happy in life without having to looking down on others to reassure them.

This statement is completely bunk. The vast majority of surgeons I know do not look down on PCP's. To be honest, I have heard this exact comment from multiple surgeons/subspecialty surgeons; "Family Practitoner...No, I couldn't do that!! You have to know too damn much." A GOOD FP is invaluble to any specialist.

I love when people back up pre-med generalizations (DO is not as prestigious & are discriminated) w/ other completely BS generalizations.

 

[Dr JPH]

MD look down on DOs, just the same way surgeons look down on primary care physicians.

Are you serious???

Dont know where you got that from but I respect all of my colleagues, regardless of specialty.

Sounds like youre part of that "pre med problem" yourself.

 

[ScootDoc]

so, what are you trying to say about PA/nurses/CNA?

Kiteboarder, if you pulled your head out of your pompas ass, wiped the s--t from your eyes, and read my post again. You would realize that I was not saying anything derogatory towards the named professions. I was, however, refering to the students who, because they cannot get accepted to medical school (most likely due to their own prideful arrogance) end up choosing professions such as PA and RN (I threw the CNA in there for laughs, since they wipe alot of butt). (FYI I am a CNA) because they still prefer to work in healthcare. I did however, hint to the fact that doctors do have a certain degree of primacy or superiority over the named professions and can more or less give orders. All pejorative commets were focused on the students not professions.

It's all right though I've forgiven you!! ha ha!

Just so you know, I have wiped a lot of asses!! I love my job as a CNA.

Later!

 

[NPEMTIV]

I think that the whole DO vs MD argument is more of one among pre-meds and not in the workplace.

I agree. This has been my experience. The only people I've come across who seem to care are fellow pre-med students.

 

[Lamborghini1315]

Very simple if you want respect in the medical community, then set goals to excel in your respective fields..success is always admired and rest is bs. No one can ever tell you to your face that you are less of a doctor..all the discrimination against DO's is due to the fact that MD's have more competition in us..and we r no inferiors to any profession. We all serve one purpose is to help our communities, your occupation is your choice..a physician and a surgeon are on the same level but doing 2 very different things.

 

[Fermata]

I truly don't understand why people get so worked up about this sort of thing.

Becoming a DO is just another option of becoming a good physician.

Your success among your future peers isn't representative of what some shmuck premeds think about DO schools. Living well is the best revenge.


Besides, all the truly intelligent people go into dentistry. Only us fools still want to pursue medicine.

 

[sortagrownup]

My father is an MD. He doesn't look down on DOs. The other MDs that he knows do not look down upon DOs. I know that there certainly are some who do, but I think that the whole DO vs MD argument is more of one among pre-meds and not in the workplace.

From my experience this is true. My father is an MD as well and his chief resident back in the day was a DO. I asked both MDs and DOs about the DO perception and they treat each other as equals. In the end they're only initials after your name.

Incidentally I have a friend (who I haven't talked to in a long time) who's applying to MD schools the second time around. The first time he only applied to our state's MD schools. The second time around, he also applied to dentist schools.

 

[bravotwozero]

I concur with much of what has already been said. I don't bother 'defending' the profession. It doesn't need it. All I know is that after graduating from a DO school, I'll be making the same amount of money as the MD's, and no one is going to give a rat's ass about the letters beside my name, and I'll be laughing at the tools who look down on DOs.

Ignoramuses will remain ignoramuses.

 

[lala83]

Are you serious???

Dont know where you got that from but I respect all of my colleagues, regardless of specialty.

Sounds like youre part of that "pre med problem" yourself.

i think you misunderstood me. as somebody who wants to go into family practice myself, i've gotten that comment from others who are gung ho about going into surgery and point-blank said that primary care was for the doctors who just barely want to be called doctors and nothing else. that it's the easy way out.

i happen to think that's complete BS, but i was trying to highlight that it never ends. people who want to look down on people will look down on them regardless of rhyme or reason.

 

[Founder]

One benefit of coming from a small school without being a "feeder" to MD or anything is that when I say DO, people just ask what it is. Then I say it is basically the same as MD and everyone "That's cool."

I think not coming from an Ivy league undergraduate school or one of the more "prestigious" undergraduate schools is definitely a benefit. Most students here, if we have any medical students, go DO or dentistry. Not many go MD.

And a plus about going into the military is that they honestly do not care if you are DO or MD. All they care about is if you are a good doctor. Plus being in the military will be great because you know most of the people next to you are not in it for the money or prestige but want to help out their fellow servicemen/women and dependents and veterans.

 

[NewHope]

My advice, get on the good side of the nurses, they inherently hate physicians(must be in the RN booklet, "All RNs required to hate Doctors").

lol....I must've missed that in any of my RN book(let)s . In all my 16 years of practice I've never hated one., but did save quite a few of their @$$. Many of those "rulling class" have learned not to talk or think out of their @$$ from their attendings The attitude readjustment is a different thing. I'm not saying that you won't meet any of the real biatches among the "caring" profession. But when you check your ego and attitude at the door....it will go a looooooooooooooooooong waaaaaaaaaaaaay for you, my friend. Trust me on that

 

[nvshelat]

The funny thing is, I've never met a single MD who looks down on DOs.

I have trouble meeting a DO who doesn't look down on MDs.

Now, granted most of the latter are professors who are trying desperately to convince us that there actually is a difference between osteopathic and allopathic medicine and that we didn't just choose DO as a backup, but still (no pun intended), it's annoying.

(Though the DOs I've shadowed (clinicians) are a little better with it, I must admit, and not surprisingly)

 

[Tessy]

Are you serious???

Dont know where you got that from but I respect all of my colleagues, regardless of specialty.

Sounds like youre part of that "pre med problem" yourself.

JPHazelton, what about podiatrists? Do you consider them your equal colleagues? I happen to know a podiatrist and she is telling me that other physicians often look down upon her, treating her like a person who does pedicure or something?

 

[BigRedBMA]

I think not coming from an Ivy league undergraduate school or one of the more "prestigious" undergraduate schools is definitely a benefit. Most students here, if we have any medical students, go DO or dentistry. Not many go MD.

I went to an Ivy League school and a lot of my buddies went DO (myself included).

 

[Dr.Inviz]

This statement is completely bunk. The vast majority of surgeons I know do not look down on PCP's. To be honest, I have heard this exact comment from multiple surgeons/subspecialty surgeons; "Family Practitoner...No, I couldn't do that!! You have to know too damn much." A GOOD FP is invaluble to any specialist.

I love when people back up pre-med generalizations (DO is not as prestigious & are discriminated) w/ other completely BS generalizations.

I think if you and JP continue to read on, she goes on to say in the very next line "it never really happens."

 

[Cat48100]

Well, I work at an allopathic teaching hospital and the only time I have heard anything negative about DO's were from 2 MD residents. However, these are the same residents who complain about why they went into medicine in the first place and also the fact that they don't make that much money as a resident. One said recently that he wished that he just went into business like his friends whom are making 100K a year. He said it would save him time and money and he wouldn't be in as much debt as he is now. Well obviously, these 2 residents went into MD for the wrong reasons, otherwise they wouldn't be complaining about their professions.

The rest of the doctors and nurses have all been very supportive of DO's along with my pursuit of a DO degree and in fact one nurse mentioned that the best Attendings at UCI are DOs. Furthermore, I always hear from people whether they are in the medical profession or not that the best doctor they ever had was their primary care physician whom was a DO.

So in the end, did it make me angry that the residents basically said that DOs are substandard. Yes, but I don't take it to heart because they are also the same doctors who went into medicine for the MD degree and money, not to help others. The vast majority of people that I have encountered feel very highly of DOs.

 

[Dr.Inviz]

I love how some people have to bash MDs to make DOs look better or special.

There's also a DO who rips people off where I live, and has sub-standard x-ray facilities. Hell, I didn't know he existed until someone mentioned him (and him being a DO) and I went into his Family Practice office. He didn't know how to do the OMT, but he sure knew how to bill for each and every little thing ... to the max.

There's going to be good and bad of both is the point, don't make one better than the other because it's a pre-osteo (or even pre-allo) forum.

 

[Dr JPH]

JPHazelton, what about podiatrists? Do you consider them your equal colleagues? I happen to know a podiatrist and she is telling me that other physicians often look down upon her, treating her like a person who does pedicure or something?

You HAVE to look down on a podiatrist...they are at your feet!

Podiatrists, Dentists, Opthalmologists all have their focus.

But they didn't go to medical school. They went to their respective school of higher learning.

Lets leave it at that.

 

[CommanderRiker]

The funny thing is, I've never met a single MD who looks down on DOs.

I have trouble meeting a DO who doesn't look down on MDs.

Inferior people often 'look down' on superior ones.

 

[Packamylase]

You HAVE to look down on a podiatrist...they are at your feet!

Podiatrists, Dentists, Opthalmologists all have their focus.

But they didn't go to medical school. They went to their respective school of higher learning.

Lets leave it at that.

I know JP knows better, but he meant Optometrists.

 

[Buckeye4life]

Podiatrists, Dentists, Opthalmologists all have their focus.

But they didn't go to medical school.
Lets leave it at that.

You mean optometrists.

 

[Dr JPH]

You mean optometrists.

HA!

Oversight.

Although I also have strong opinions about Dermatologists...

 

[Dr JPH]

Inferior people often 'look down' on superior ones.

So is THAT why you are always bashing DOs?

Makes sense now.

 

[AlleghenyPOD]

You HAVE to look down on a podiatrist...they are at your feet!

Podiatrists, Dentists, Opthalmologists all have their focus.

But they didn't go to medical school. They went to their respective school of higher learning.

Lets leave it at that.

Hey hey..lets not make fun of the podiatrists. lol.

 

[JohnDO]

At this point I just gave up and explained they needed to actually do some research on DO's instead of relying on hearsay. What else could I have done?

Put them on ignore.

 

[thoredius]

Unfortunately, there are going to be people who look down on others for just about any obscure reason. Reality is, anyone in the healthcare business has a noble job, physician's (MD or DO), NP, PAs, RNs, housekeeping, Facilities, food serve.. and dare I say it...Administration. Those of us who DO have the experience of actually being in a healthcare arena and have mentored and led others in the healthcare arena understand this completely.

Every time I have a new check-in to my department, I have to explain that their role (regardless of what it is) is to make sure every patient stepping into this hospital and all it's clinics receive the best possible care we can provide.

 

[burke99]

In the end it the symbols after your name do not matter. The end result is the same..to save someones life...This weekend my father was very ill and was vomiting blood and was rushed to ER. In short, a DO worked on him and saved his life..I am going to be a DO at NYCOM and I am happy that I can do the same for someone elses family...I hope all you DO's or MD's will do the same.. Good luck to all....

 

[GreenShirt]

It maybe true that DOs get equal respect in the professional world and your patients might not care, but in reality there is a lot of misunderstanding about what DOs do. I think the question the OP is addressing is not "who gets more respect in the hospital MD or DO?", but "how do you deal with some of the uninformed questions and comments you're going to encounter in your daily life from fellow pre-meds, family members and friends?" How obnoxious is going to be when you have to answer "Do you practice alternative medicine?" for the millionth time, as if you treated patients with herbs and magnets. Those MD bound pre-meds who sneer at you right now are going to become the Dr.s you work with in the future. Maybe their opinions will change when they work with you, maybe not.

The sentiment is out there and you'll encounter it as a DO. You probably won't care but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Dr JPH]

It definately DOES exist, I agree with you there.

But I think premed meetings and SDN are not an accurate representation of how prevalent it is or how that "bias" is portrayed.

 

[Depakote]

Honestly, I was very MD>DO for quite a while... I was making excuses to keep myself in my comfort zone. Frankly, it was a maturity issue, nothing more.

I honestly think the people that bash DOs do it for one of a few reasons:

1.) Unfamiliarity- lack of exposure to DOs and the abundance of MDs must mean that the one I know is better.
2.) Ignorance- Holistic is a great philosophy, but for someone that doesn't think about what it means, it can sound an awful lot like naturopathic, homeopathic... at first impression osteopathy sounds like it's just a stones throw from snake oil to some.
3.) The Lingo- Some points I touched on above, but the first when I say "Doctor of Osteopathy" I get the "So... you're going to study bones?" reaction. It just doesn't have the "catch-all" quality of Doctor of Medicine.

Now honestly... When you walk into a patient's room and introduce yourself as "Dr. ______________" if these questions even come up, you can answer them in a matter of seconds... and if you have the trust of your patient, you honestly don't need to worry about a few pre-meds that will learn this lesson a few years down the road. (My MD friends always make sure to point out the great DOs they've worked with to me as a nice bit of reassurance).


Just to add one last note on why DOs may need a bit of defense:

4.) the Hottness- It is a proven fact that DOs are hotter than their MD counter-parts. A common misconception is that there is an inverse correllation between intelligence and hottness and I would assume there could be some flack that having such a hot doctor might make one think that there is no way he or she could be smart... you can have the whole package in a DO.

 

[GreenShirt]

Just to add one last note on why DOs may need a bit of defense:

4.) the Hottness- It is a proven fact that DOs are hotter than their MD counter-parts. A common misconception is that there is an inverse correllation between intelligence and hottness and I would assume there could be some flack that having such a hot doctor might make one think that there is no way he or she could be smart... you can have the whole package in a DO.

I knew I was accepted to med school based on my looks! They committee said, "Hey, she looks smart and she's hot too...automatic acceptance!". LOL.

I think I'm still struggling to figure out the 30 sec pitch to use every time I get the "What's that?" question. I used to explain the whole three core tenets of osteopathy, but it always sounded too homeopathic. Now I just say "we're also trained in manual manipulation", which makes me sound like a chiropractor. No matter what I say, I usually get a blank look or an unenthusiastic "oh" kind of response. If anyone knows a pitch that works, please let me know. Btw, I'm not losing any sleep over this. It's just an occasional nuisance.

 

[MaximusD]

I knew I was accepted to med school based on my looks! They committee said, "Hey, she looks smart and she's hot too...automatic acceptance!". LOL.

I think I'm still struggling to figure out the 30 sec pitch to use every time I get the "What's that?" question. I used to explain the whole three core tenets of osteopathy, but it always sounded too homeopathic. Now I just say "we're also trained in manual manipulation", which makes me sound like a chiropractor. No matter what I say, I usually get a blank look or an unenthusiastic "oh" kind of response. If anyone knows a pitch that works, please let me know. Btw, I'm not losing any sleep over this. It's just an occasional nuisance.

You can always tell them to take a flying **** at a rolling donut

Kidding... just say that they are parallel degrees with different focuses.

 

[Tired Pigeon]

Insecure people will always find a way to put down other groups. This seems especially common among premed students trying to get into allo med school; my theory is that a lot of them feel pretty beat up by the admissions process and use the 'superior to DO' thing to make themselves feel better. It's just stupid.

Speaking as a med student at an allo school (please don't flame me for visiting here!), the biggest difference I saw was that there were some minor differences in residency placement for MD vs. DO. Please note that I'm NOT saying DO's can't get competitive residencies - obviously this is untrue.

Bottom line is once we're all in practice together my respect will be accorded to the best physicians I work with.

 

[bkpa2med]

How come nobody says that we have additional training in Physical Medicine?

 

[Dr JPH]

Insecure people will always find a way to put down other groups. This seems especially common among premed students trying to get into allo med school; my theory is that a lot of them feel pretty beat up by the admissions process and use the 'superior to DO' thing to make themselves feel better. It's just stupid.

Speaking as a med student at an allo school (please don't flame me for visiting here!), the biggest difference I saw was that there were some minor differences in residency placement for MD vs. DO. Please note that I'm NOT saying DO's can't get competitive residencies - obviously this is untrue.

Bottom line is once we're all in practice together my respect will be accorded to the best physicians I work with.

Welcome to the wacky pre-osteo board

Good post

Agree with residency issue you mention.