- Joined
- Apr 22, 2007
- Messages
- 22,661
- Reaction score
- 9,750
DEI is ruining UCLA. Seems the DEI pendulum swings too far the wrong way.
- Thread starter adamkiewicz
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2019
- Messages
- 1,828
- Reaction score
- 1,895
Your dog whistle is loud and clear as day.
Blah blah blah.
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2019
- Messages
- 1,828
- Reaction score
- 1,895
There's more to decision making than patient safety. Factors such as what is humane vs abusive to the resident should be high criteria as well.It’s been proven the 80 hr work week doesn’t improve safety. The smartest people in the room thought that was a good idea mainly has a consequence of that New York City death of the 18 year old at
The hands of “tired” residents in mid 1980s
It just leads to more hand off errors with shift work.
“ These results mirror prior studies which have failed to observe an improvement in patient outcomes with reduced resident work hours, suggesting that limiting physician work hours will not be sufficient to augment safety“
Patient safety in the era of the 80-hour workweek. | PSNet
Regulations intended to reduce resident physicians' work hours have been accompanied by controversy since their introduction in 2003, which mandated an 80-hour workweek for residents. To determine the impact of duty-hours limits on patient safety, researchers evaluated Patient Safety Indicators...psnet.ahrq.gov
Behind paywall
Rethink the 80-hour workweek for medical trainees - The Boston Globe
In an industry struggling with burnout, it is worth questioning whether such long hours remain appropriate.www.bostonglobe.com
Newer articles.
Newer generation are just weak minded. Pass/fail
Mental health issues
“Weak” as my even more senior colleagues in their early 60s tell the new generation of surgery residents. Than the surgery residents call acgme office say they get abused by senior Anesthesia attendings. You can’t make this up. Cause their feelings were hurt. And yes. It was a couple of DEI surgery residents complaining
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2010
- Messages
- 278
- Reaction score
- 317
Wait, so you saw a resident who was not White or Asian, and you just assumed their talent level was lower? How is that not racist?
That’s all subjective what humane and abusive is. Some people don’t take criticism well in training and claims it’s abusive. While others take criticism in stride and learn from it and grow.
We are from a different generation. I assume you finished training post 2004 (the year 80 hour work week came into place).
When I hear people use the word abusive and humane. I’m like. That’s a sign of weakness. The everyone gets a trophy era. Like my daughters cheer competition when she was a few years younger. Her team finished last. Like 8th out of 8th. They still got a participation medals for finishing last. She even as a 8 year old knew her squad sucked. And she was questioning why she got a medal.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2010
- Messages
- 278
- Reaction score
- 317
What were they? And you knew the scores of their classmates as well? I'm just gonna have to say I don't believe you.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2010
- Messages
- 278
- Reaction score
- 317
I mean this sincerely...you need to turn off fox news.
D
deleted1183938
A telling sign of what? Because I honestly can’t figure it out myself why it’s just limited to the Step 1.
D
deleted1183938
Considering how competitive anesthesia is right now there is a good chance many of us couldn’t match today. Not just you.
D
deleted1183938
There are literally abusive attendings who get off on humiliating residents in front of others, who love to yell at students and residents and some who even throw things. You can teach without constant belittling and humiliation. Just keep things factual, direct and to the point. Say no you are incorrect if they don’t give you the right answer and move on.
Let’s not act like this is not a thing in medicine.
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2008
- Messages
- 826
- Reaction score
- 782
Not really. Scores are variable with a fairly large SEM.
They were mostly a convenience screen.
D
deleted1183938
Wait are you the attending?
How do u expect to learn? Not everyone’s teacher is mean. But u need variety in attendings. Nice ones and mean ones. The mean ones really aren’t a holes. It’s a different style of teaching.
If u don’t face adversity getting to ur final destination. How battle tested will u be?
New grad at my place. Only wants to supervise. I’m like boy (and no, he’s not black or minority ). He’s white privileged kid. I tell him boy. Get ur butt in the room. He’s 30. Looks like he’s 20 years old. Doesn’t want to do extra calls even for extra cash. But complains he wants more money with the job. Like seriously? It’s a 40 hr week job. No in house calls. No call really. How easy can this get. But he wants to be out side playing on his computer.
That’s my frustration with this generation. They want the easy way out. You gotta face life challenges to succeed. Nothing should be all easy.
Me? I’ve done my own room all week (by choice). I’ll do my own room tomorrow than roll to my locums job and do solo overnight call at my other job and make even more. This type of work ethic starts early. From attendings (not all) yelling at me also. Everyone has been yelled at at some point in their training.
You take the good and bad. You grow up.
If everyone treats you with kid gloves. How will you deal with real conflict?
D
deleted1183938
Did you even bother to read my comment?
And why are you comparing two completely different scenarios. I am not talking of work hours or entitlement like you are. I am literally speaking of verbal abuse.
And yes without verbal abuse people can still learn. Just look at how the non abusive attendings teach. Abusive teachers are most often dinguses. Stop it.
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2018
- Messages
- 334
- Reaction score
- 583
Hey! Current MS2 at UCLA, I honestly haven't read this entire thread because it's 300+ posts long.
I did read the first page or two though!
As someone I guess in the mix, I have a few thoughts just in general on the topic as a whole!
1. I think its kinda crappy that people are attempting to attribute DEI initiatives to "lower" performance at our school. This doesnt really make sense my understanding is that since 2020 UCLA has been making moves to increase its diversity. Theres an image going around of our step 2 scores since 2020 and they have all been at the national average or higher! Also, UCLA matches well. Another thing to point out is, honestly my cohort isnt crazy diverse. White and Asian ethnicities are still the overwhelmingly majority. I'm AA, and theres like 20 of us? maybe. and most of us are from the Drew program which no long exist as it has historically since the inception of CDU COM. For our hispanic classmates, there certainly is more of them than us AA students but nothing too crazy. I'm fairly certain Blacks and hispanics combined is probably only 30% of our class and almost all of us are either from LA-Prime or UCLA/Drew programs which are small programs with a specific mission within the school of medicine. I say that just to acknowledge, regarding the image about 50% of our class failing some shelf exams, that even if every minority student failed it wouldn't attribute to all the fails of block 1. As someone who definitely was a beneficiary to UCLAs DEI program I'm pretty disheartened by some of the sentiments I've read.
2. I seen a few posts about the decline in our students, well students in general. I dont find this to be true. No, we dont have the same pressures as it relates to grades, or step 1 or even evaluations, but tbh its doesnt really matter. Because at the end of our medical school journey the goal is to get into a residency of our desired specialty. Specialty choice is highly self selecting, and those of us who want to pursue competitive specialties or prestigious residencies, we still have to be competitive regardless of if UCLA is true p/f, 1yr clinical, discovery year...etc We still need to do well w/o red flags, and impress on sub-Is, be productive with research, yada yada. It all normalizes in the end, and at the end of it the students who did what was necessary will be successful.
3. My class is the second to go through this curriculum, and not surprising to me we're doing better than the previous cohort because of how great UCLA faculty is and how they truly want us to succeed. It sucks because they were really the guinea pigs and I think they deserve grace. at the very least holding off a bit until we see how they match next year. I'm expecting a great match next year nevertheless because I know quite a few of them well and they are rockstars! UCLA has implemented even more changes for the c/o 2027 and we'll see how they fare. It only make sense to expect some drop with a new curricula. I'm aware schools like Harvard, and Vandy also have 1yr preclinical but to my knowledge we dont know how the inaugural class to their condensed curriculum performed, I wonder if it was similar to ours. Ours is only public because some student and/or faculty has leaked this info nefariously. Its a difficult position to be in, not are we only not given time to consolidate the information prior to starting wards, but even the questioning for shelf studying is at a higher order than we're used to. We get 2wks between the end of yr 1 and the start of clerkships. I started with Internal medicine and I remember doing UW and not even knowing what they were trying to get me to recognize in the vignette. Not to mention also starting my first rotation ever and the pressures that comes with that. Obviously, as I progressed that got better and I got accustomed to the shelf style questions and did very well ultimately. I strongly believe that with how genuine our faculty is and how passionate they are in wanting us to be successful, that they'll get it together with the curriculum.
Thanks for reading all this, its probably not that exciting. I'll be around! back to shelf studying!
I did read the first page or two though!
As someone I guess in the mix, I have a few thoughts just in general on the topic as a whole!
1. I think its kinda crappy that people are attempting to attribute DEI initiatives to "lower" performance at our school. This doesnt really make sense my understanding is that since 2020 UCLA has been making moves to increase its diversity. Theres an image going around of our step 2 scores since 2020 and they have all been at the national average or higher! Also, UCLA matches well. Another thing to point out is, honestly my cohort isnt crazy diverse. White and Asian ethnicities are still the overwhelmingly majority. I'm AA, and theres like 20 of us? maybe. and most of us are from the Drew program which no long exist as it has historically since the inception of CDU COM. For our hispanic classmates, there certainly is more of them than us AA students but nothing too crazy. I'm fairly certain Blacks and hispanics combined is probably only 30% of our class and almost all of us are either from LA-Prime or UCLA/Drew programs which are small programs with a specific mission within the school of medicine. I say that just to acknowledge, regarding the image about 50% of our class failing some shelf exams, that even if every minority student failed it wouldn't attribute to all the fails of block 1. As someone who definitely was a beneficiary to UCLAs DEI program I'm pretty disheartened by some of the sentiments I've read.
2. I seen a few posts about the decline in our students, well students in general. I dont find this to be true. No, we dont have the same pressures as it relates to grades, or step 1 or even evaluations, but tbh its doesnt really matter. Because at the end of our medical school journey the goal is to get into a residency of our desired specialty. Specialty choice is highly self selecting, and those of us who want to pursue competitive specialties or prestigious residencies, we still have to be competitive regardless of if UCLA is true p/f, 1yr clinical, discovery year...etc We still need to do well w/o red flags, and impress on sub-Is, be productive with research, yada yada. It all normalizes in the end, and at the end of it the students who did what was necessary will be successful.
3. My class is the second to go through this curriculum, and not surprising to me we're doing better than the previous cohort because of how great UCLA faculty is and how they truly want us to succeed. It sucks because they were really the guinea pigs and I think they deserve grace. at the very least holding off a bit until we see how they match next year. I'm expecting a great match next year nevertheless because I know quite a few of them well and they are rockstars! UCLA has implemented even more changes for the c/o 2027 and we'll see how they fare. It only make sense to expect some drop with a new curricula. I'm aware schools like Harvard, and Vandy also have 1yr preclinical but to my knowledge we dont know how the inaugural class to their condensed curriculum performed, I wonder if it was similar to ours. Ours is only public because some student and/or faculty has leaked this info nefariously. Its a difficult position to be in, not are we only not given time to consolidate the information prior to starting wards, but even the questioning for shelf studying is at a higher order than we're used to. We get 2wks between the end of yr 1 and the start of clerkships. I started with Internal medicine and I remember doing UW and not even knowing what they were trying to get me to recognize in the vignette. Not to mention also starting my first rotation ever and the pressures that comes with that. Obviously, as I progressed that got better and I got accustomed to the shelf style questions and did very well ultimately. I strongly believe that with how genuine our faculty is and how passionate they are in wanting us to be successful, that they'll get it together with the curriculum.
Thanks for reading all this, its probably not that exciting. I'll be around! back to shelf studying!
Why are people depressed suicidal? That’s the bigger issue. It’s weak to be depressed. Get over it. It’s harsh what I’m typing. But it’s the truth. Get over it.
Do you get verbal abuse by surgeons as attendings? We all stil do get verbal abuse. Like u said. It happens in non medical fields as well.
Seems like you never played competitive sports with coaches yelling at you. It’s been going on since the beginning of time. The yelling and verbal abuse as u call it. I call it life. And u learn from it. I got yelled at from competitive sports through training through being yelled at my upper admin even last week. You develop tough skin from that. Maybe that’s why I don’t believe in depression or mental health. Cause I’m stone cold now. Or emotionally unavailable most times.
I still take the heat being yelled at by attending surgeons canceling their elective peritoneal dialysis patient with potassium 6.1 (no ekg changes) (he has other access)
But this surgeon pissed me off. He’s always yelling. Very good surgeon though but angry one
Next day I did elective av fistula with potassium 6.4 ( no ekg changes) with another surgeon.
It really seems like you can’t take the heat. You need to be in a controlled environment for kindness and “team work”
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2019
- Messages
- 1,828
- Reaction score
- 1,895
I'm from the same jackass era you are glorifying. It was amazing I got through as I got in many people's faces that tried that abusive inhumane stuff you think is cool but are really the true pathetic weak af little humans. That you even think those pathetic people you idolize were anything to look up to tells all I need to know about you, the guy who took it without a fight just waiting to get his opportunity to abuse others. Yeah, you're pretty pathetic. Like I said I had confrontations with every single person like you and it was a miserable struggle to get through, but instead of being like you when I'm in charge I won multiple best teacher awards not being an abusive jackass. Be a real man and grow the duck up.
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2022
- Messages
- 1,864
- Reaction score
- 2,354
It's a multifactorial disease that stress exacerbates.
Old age plays a role, as you age your risk for depression seems to increase - which would seem to run against your idea that it's the youth who are "weak". (Or at least the changes/disabilities that tend to accompany old age increase the risk - I'm no expert here on separating that out.)
Abuse can play a role (physical, sexual or emotional).
Death of a loved one or loss of a long term relationship can cause it. Post-partum depression is a well recognized disease. Even frequent conflicts with loved ones can cause it.
Poverty also has a complex relationship with depression. Poor people are generally more likely to be depressed and that in turn can worsen their poverty or reduce the likelihood they escape poverty.
Most of these can happen to med students just like anyone else, they can just as easily get depressed.
Last edited:
My students and residents love me when I taught true academics. I still keep in touch with a few of them 10 years out.
I still have med students at my current place.
It’s a different style of learning.
It’s ironic people want to support DEI. Diversity, equity, inclusivity yet have zero awareness people come from all walks of life and have different values. Even teaching values
That in itself tells me what a joke people who support dei and bash “mean professors”. The irony here.
And by the way. I’m a super nice guy from people who know me personally. I am not one of those mean guys. I invoke thought here. I see things people don’t see. If u support people from different cultures and values. It’s just ironic u don’t tolerate “mean attendings”. Please be inclusive. But u probably aren’t if u don’t tolerate it.
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2010
- Messages
- 3,284
- Reaction score
- 10,686
Thank you for sharing - I think your experience mirrors what I saw back when my institution went to a 1-year pre clinical track. Thankfully it didn’t wind up in the press, but numbers were pretty similar to the ucla data. There’s no substitute for time and one can’t expect a newly minted M2 to do as well on a shelf as a new M3 who just spent 6 weeks studying for S1.
Plus, let’s not forget that passing on shelves is based on a scaled score derived from the cohorts of past M3s who took it. Many schools change their own pass/honors cutoffs based on when in M3 you take a given shelf. If a few months make that big a difference, are we surprised that a year and a few months makes a difference too?
Glad to hear ucla is making adjustments that seem to be helping and I have no doubt admin are watching everything really close after such a big change. As this thread indicates, there are plenty of good arguments for and against DEI initiatives without dragging these new curriculum data into the fray when they likely have nothing to do with race and everything to do with a brand new curriculum with tests scaled for the old one.
D
deleted1183938
Just because this childish abusive behavior is happening doesn’t make it right. And when a surgeon verbally abuses me I give it right back to them. I learned this in the first few years out of residency. Residents don’t have this option.
So you are excusing this bullish behavior because you experienced it in competitive sports?
No I never played sports and certainly don’t care to be verbally abused no matter the setting.
The way you excuse this is really concerning.
D
deleted1183938
And you never got in trouble for getting into their faces as a resident? Or am I assuming incorrectly that you were a resident.
Medicine in general is abusive to residents and meds. I don’t think most have any recourse because they have such little power. And many will get reprimanded for not tolerating this abuse. As you can see some attendings like the Boomer you are arguing with seem to like this and pass it on.
D
deleted1183938
Honestly the way you have to explain the basics of depression to a grown old man is telling of how this man really is.
Pathetic.
Depression and adhd are over diagnosed in the USA. Those are facts. It’s money driven. Multiple studies have confirmed that. Or maybe they have really bad physicians who have been brain washed into prescribing drugs on a dime.
It’s about tolerance. You claim to be inclusiveness and diversity. Yet the irony is if people don’t support ur views. You say you won’t tolerate it
DEI is all about tolerance. Respect. Isn’t it?
My two black anesthesiologists colleagues at work keep using the N word (even in fun). Do I call HR on them? Because I don’t feel comfortable? They crack other minority jokes also. They make fun of white peope? It’s all good. Doesn’t bother me.
Respect people. But I’m sure you would call HR on white people if they make u feel uncomfortable.
You gotta grow and experience life. Understand the world.
It’s really your narrow mind that really surprises me.
You ask others to respect ur values.
Respect other people’s values. No matter how much you disagree with them. DEI. Diversify equity inclusivity. That’s all I gotta say.
D
deleted1183938
Jesus Christ. So let’s take your thesis at face value. How do you know who has real depression versus fake depression? Your idea is just to tell everyone they are faking it and get over it. And you are a physician?
Honestly this is a situation where I say maybe you just need to go back to your country where your people can be abusive to each other and ignore any mental health issue at all and put these “crazy” people in cages or something.
Having any kind of discussion with you is just killing me slowly.
D
deleted1183938
You are an abusive, crazy, masochist. I am done with you.
What does being inclusive have anything to do with tolerating abuse?
You are a nutcase. Bizarre.
Wow. I’m born and raised in USA. lol.
And you are the one telling me to go back to my country?
Basically exposed DEI sympathizers. When you are not with them. They get mad. Than start expressing their true opinion that completely goes against what they claim to support
Grow up.
I see everything I actually support more inclusivity than you.
Mental Health over diagnosis is like telling a kid
Man. You guys suck. Eventually if you keep telling them you suck. They will believe it. It’s like mental health. You keep discussing about it. People may believe they really have it. Like I stated multiple times. True depression means losing interest in things you love. I ask fat people who are on anti depression drugs. If they love food. They say yes.
Well guess what. If you are truly clinically depressed. You should be losing weight. But you are gaining weight.
They changed the diagnosis of depression in the 1980s as more depression drugs went into the market. Cause they wanted to sell more drugs. And the big pharma now pays 40% of the mental Health handbook authors money who write the dsm handbook. To push drugs and make money.
You cant sell drugs if one of the criteria for true depression is weight loss cause we got people who love food and claim to be depressed gaining weight. So they don’t really have true clinical depression. Those are cold hard facts.
I can claim whatever you say to me as abusive in my own head because we differ in opinion. And being abusive doesn’t mean yelling. It can be very subtle. And even non verbal abuse.
Women are often times abusing men mentally. The way they stare at men when they disagree with them. Called the silent treatment But u probably don’t consider that abuse. But mental abuse is still abuse. Right? See I’m supporting ur mental angle now. I can play all day on this.
It’s all in ur head. Be respectful.
The world population is all different. That’s what you need to realize.
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2020
- Messages
- 4,347
- Reaction score
- 9,439
This is some racist ****
That’s my point. The people who preach inclusivity diversity are usually the most narrow minded people out there.
People see things through their narrow lenses and need to open their eyes to the world.
Is there some truth behind URM being mistreated as they grow up? Absolutely.
But many URM feel entitled that they had free rein to say whatever they want. No matter how offensive it is to others. Like they have a free pass.
Like I stated. Is there a place for DEI special slots to med schools for borderline candidates? Don’t take those slots from non URM. Create a G league slots for URM who may need extra help. We all want people to succeed.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2022
- Messages
- 1,864
- Reaction score
- 2,354
This is mostly a distinction without a difference. Your philosophy doesn't really allow you to accept a racial preference in your g league. Unless your g league has unlimited resources and can accommodate as many med students as we want? Unclear. There are significantly more borderline white and asian applicants who would meet the criteria for your g league than black applicants.
It sounds like you're ok with racial preferences in one but not the other, which seems inconsistent to me, but whatever.
What constitutes a borderline medical student for one school is going to be very different for another. I think your philosophy would have to work out whether or not a top scoring applicant deserves to go to A medical school versus a TOP TEN medical school (or variations on that question). I don't think there's a correct answer to that question. There's a lot of conflicting factors, for example state schools generally (should) try to select for in-state students to lower the average tuition, but then you might be missing out on some of the highest tier candidates. Plenty of conflicts that aren't easily reconcilable.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2004
- Messages
- 799
- Reaction score
- 930
Earlier someone said there were too many Asians anyways. So easy it rolls off the tongue.
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2019
- Messages
- 1,828
- Reaction score
- 1,895
The abusive system I went through is a sore spot with me. I want no one else to go through that extreme sleep deprivation and jerky nonsense just because "I had to." Telling me I'm basically weak pampered and need a participation trophy isn't going to get any kind of respectful reply from me other than GFY.
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2019
- Messages
- 1,828
- Reaction score
- 1,895
Oh heck yes. Med school was worse than residency. Third year was probably the worst year of my life. I was all excited thinking how cool it would be to now be on the wards. Instead it was a miserable abusive non-learning "survival mode" existence. Do what you have to do to get the paper and just figured I would actually learn something later.
I was with no doubt by any standard one of the top residents, yet the attendings I wouldn't kiss butt to, like this guy, were doing everything they could to get me thrown out. They couldn't get any real traction on it because just barely enough staff with integrity were like, you not liking him isn't enough reason to boot one of the best performing residents. But it all sucked. Literally counted down day by day to the exact number of days remaining when I'd get out of there.
I was on call till midnight the very last day of residency. I walked to my car, didn't turn around at any point to look at the hospital, got in my car and drove away from the hospital with my arm out the window giving a one finger salute aimed back at the hospital. It was such a good feeling of freedom, "You ah's can never screw with me again."
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2019
- Messages
- 1,828
- Reaction score
- 1,895
I think the problem we're having here is you're basically an idiot
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2006
- Messages
- 3,466
- Reaction score
- 3,091
I have not really seen evidence that aneftp is advocating for people being jerks. He seems to be talking more about how we should, as a group, respond to people who are jerks. I interpret his point as more of a "don't let the bastards get you down" type of attitude and "pick yourself up by the bootstraps" and move forward attitude that seems to be less common more recently. There is no doubt that there are complete jerks out there and that they will inevitably treat people poorly and everyone will be affected at some point. The world is imperfect and full of flawed individuals, including ourselves. However, we do not have to let them set our mood and define who we are. We can be strong and move past it and still be productive team members.
Ultimately, if the entire workforce is toxic and this type of behavior is allowed to persist unchecked, then most reasonable people would choose not to work there any longer. However, there are certain things that don't quite rise to the level of making a big deal about it and most people are able to just move past it and commiserate with colleagues about "what a jerk that person is" as opposed to letting it cause them to be miserable. It sounds like @We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes trained in a fairly toxic environment, and that is unfortunate. I am happy to say that not all places are like that. I had a great residency experience and I do my best to ensure that our trainees have a great experience. Granted, I trained before duty hours rules and I often worked >100 hours a week and often worked 48 or 72 hour shifts (often because I was moonlighting to support family-so some of it was self inflicted). But I came away with excellent training, a comfort with autonomy, a respect for my mentors, a great deal of pride in my training program, and a whole bunch of lifelong friendships.
I certainly met my share of jerks along the way, but they did not define me and I did not let them determine my course by getting goaded into conflict with them. I simply accepted that they were jerks and moved ahead. I think that our society now teaches us that every time we are disrespected, it has to be addressed. I think that if it rises above a threshold of unprofessionalism, then yeah, it needs to be addressed. But sometimes, people are rough on the exterior and we have to be okay with that as long as it isn't causing patient harm or unsafe circumstances. Most jerks are just blustery curmudgeons and, if you give them a bit of pushback, they will change the way they treat you. HR does not need to be involved for every negative feeling that is encountered.
I think the world needs people like aneftp who just speak their mind and discuss some things that may be difficult to hear but often have a shred (or more) of truth to them. Psychiatric diagnoses are very serious and should not be ignored, but I don't disagree with him about the social media cultural shift to making a psych diagnosis actually desirable so that people can gain sympathy or make excuses for their bad behavior.
One of our biggest "jerks" in our department turned a lot of people off with his delivery, but he frequently had very good points to make. Most people never got past the "I'm pissed off at you because you say things in a mean way" stage to actually listen to his comments.
So, I am not saying that I agree with everything stated by aneftp, and I suspect he/she is using a bit of hyperbole at this point to further stir the pot. But I am able to look past the rough around the edges delivery to examine the point that is being made. It may not be 100% correct, but it certainly is not 100% incorrect either.
Ultimately, if the entire workforce is toxic and this type of behavior is allowed to persist unchecked, then most reasonable people would choose not to work there any longer. However, there are certain things that don't quite rise to the level of making a big deal about it and most people are able to just move past it and commiserate with colleagues about "what a jerk that person is" as opposed to letting it cause them to be miserable. It sounds like @We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes trained in a fairly toxic environment, and that is unfortunate. I am happy to say that not all places are like that. I had a great residency experience and I do my best to ensure that our trainees have a great experience. Granted, I trained before duty hours rules and I often worked >100 hours a week and often worked 48 or 72 hour shifts (often because I was moonlighting to support family-so some of it was self inflicted). But I came away with excellent training, a comfort with autonomy, a respect for my mentors, a great deal of pride in my training program, and a whole bunch of lifelong friendships.
I certainly met my share of jerks along the way, but they did not define me and I did not let them determine my course by getting goaded into conflict with them. I simply accepted that they were jerks and moved ahead. I think that our society now teaches us that every time we are disrespected, it has to be addressed. I think that if it rises above a threshold of unprofessionalism, then yeah, it needs to be addressed. But sometimes, people are rough on the exterior and we have to be okay with that as long as it isn't causing patient harm or unsafe circumstances. Most jerks are just blustery curmudgeons and, if you give them a bit of pushback, they will change the way they treat you. HR does not need to be involved for every negative feeling that is encountered.
I think the world needs people like aneftp who just speak their mind and discuss some things that may be difficult to hear but often have a shred (or more) of truth to them. Psychiatric diagnoses are very serious and should not be ignored, but I don't disagree with him about the social media cultural shift to making a psych diagnosis actually desirable so that people can gain sympathy or make excuses for their bad behavior.
One of our biggest "jerks" in our department turned a lot of people off with his delivery, but he frequently had very good points to make. Most people never got past the "I'm pissed off at you because you say things in a mean way" stage to actually listen to his comments.
So, I am not saying that I agree with everything stated by aneftp, and I suspect he/she is using a bit of hyperbole at this point to further stir the pot. But I am able to look past the rough around the edges delivery to examine the point that is being made. It may not be 100% correct, but it certainly is not 100% incorrect either.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2020
- Messages
- 4,347
- Reaction score
- 9,439
On my last day I was done at 1 and they wanted me to give a break until 2 for a single coverage room. Could have been worse but I was annoyed af.
I know of a fellow who called in his attending (single covered) for a break and just left.
Well stated.
I don't do the yelling. I'm very mild manner. I wanted people to see the world the way it is. We are all different. If you want to support diversity, than support other people's differing opinions. Even if they are mean to you. You move on.
As for psych issues. I don't believe in a lot of mental health. Most of it is self generated with alcohol and drugs involved as well. Remember I'm the one who actually recommends people actually go into Psych! I said it's becoming extremely popular among med students. So I see a cash cow involved with mental health. I truly only believe 20% of people really have mental health issues. Like real mental health like suicidal clinical depression, schizophrenia etc. Real stuff. The other stuff like bored housewives drinking too much and on Wellbutrin. It's like seriously. Stop the drinking and the happy hours cocktails first. That's the type of over diagnosed depression I'm talking about. As well as the BS fibromyalgia diagnosis,
D
deleted1183938
I am learning from the best. I mean what is this whole thread about anyway if not people and their racist views blaming minorities for the failure rate of this school with an obvious CHANGE in curriculum? Some claiming that URM intelligence is inferior? I mean, I feel like I am reading from Hitler’s propaganda machines being that I just visited a concentration camp last week.
No one wants to call it what it is, but then boom…!!! You call me out? Two can play this game.
Some people are amazing. Hilarious.
Last edited by a moderator:
D
deleted1183938
Well the way you keep speaking of America this and America that and your grasp on the English language tells me otherwise but hey anyone can claim to be whomever they want on the internet.
Go America.
I am moving on arguing with some Cluster B person who clearly has no insight into their craziness and then claims that mental health problems are a made up thing. You are a prime example that it absolutely exists!!! Except no one can help you!!
Good luck buddy.
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2019
- Messages
- 1,828
- Reaction score
- 1,895
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2007
- Messages
- 22,661
- Reaction score
- 9,750
1. Nobody here is saying anything like you have stated about URM. We are discussing the role DEI plays in admissions and its fairness in our society.
One can be pro URM and anti-DEI. The goal behind a race neutral policy (which we don't have in the USA) is color-blind admissions. I don't believe in discrimination against any group or race for admission to our universities, med schools, law schools, etc.
2. The legality of UCLA's admission process is certainly in question here based on California law and SCOTUS ruling in 2023.
3. The fact is the DEI students did worse as a group on their Shelf exams vs their non DEI cohorts. There may be reasons for this like the change to the 1 year basic science curriculum but the fact remains this hurt the DEI students more and their test scores suffered as a result.
4. Some on here believe DEI is good for the country; the end justify the means while others believe the Constitution and race neutral admissions process is where we should be at in 2024.
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2022
- Messages
- 1,864
- Reaction score
- 2,354
The idea that the Constitution can be used for over 200 years to harm black Americans but now can't be used to uplift them is a recent invention by our Republican majority SCOTUS.
If the unsourced allegations are true, there is a good chance they would violate SCOTUS' current interpretation of the 14th amendment (and possibly CA law, don't know haven't read it) as applied to medical school admissions.
SFFA was decided in 2023 and the allegations against UCLA are from classes prior to that or at least that's my read from the article. It could be the case that UCLA shifted admissions policy after SFFA. It could also be the case that there is exculpatory evidence UCLA could use for their class of 2023 and onwards. For instance, it's still permissible for students to declare their race in personal statements and essays - interpretations of which are still permissible after SFFA.
If the unsourced allegations are true, there is a good chance they would violate SCOTUS' current interpretation of the 14th amendment (and possibly CA law, don't know haven't read it) as applied to medical school admissions.
SFFA was decided in 2023 and the allegations against UCLA are from classes prior to that or at least that's my read from the article. It could be the case that UCLA shifted admissions policy after SFFA. It could also be the case that there is exculpatory evidence UCLA could use for their class of 2023 and onwards. For instance, it's still permissible for students to declare their race in personal statements and essays - interpretations of which are still permissible after SFFA.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2010
- Messages
- 278
- Reaction score
- 317
1)Aneftp said exactly that. Go back and read his posts.
3) is that a fact? Where did you see this fact? Can you show me?
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2007
- Messages
- 22,661
- Reaction score
- 9,750
It’s obvious that UCLA would have released statistics showing their DEI students did just as well, or just as poorly, as their non DEI cohorts. The fact is the school has not refuted the claim their DEI admits have performed worse and have a failure rate of 25% in their shelf exams. You can believe otherwise but it’s quite obvious to those who read the stats and those who released the data. This makes perfect senses as the DEI admits have lower stats on admission by a wide margin vs their non DEI cohorts. They need more time studying the basic sciences not less.
Regardless of the facts those who support DEI will continue to argue for its merits even if it discriminates against the Asian community.
How major university discriminated against white and Asian candidates
A Black candidate was given a tenure-track job above white and Asian applicants who were ranked higher in the selection process.
www.newsweek.com
Last edited:
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2007
- Messages
- 22,661
- Reaction score
- 9,750
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2022
- Messages
- 1,864
- Reaction score
- 2,354
2-3 more black students.
No evidence has been presented that this is a deviation from years prior to 2019.
It would be interesting to see if the asian and white students are hiding in "other".
D
deleted1183938
There was one other person but I am too lazy to go back and read it all again.
And yet I am racist. It’s called giving people a taste of their own medicine. Seems like some people will allow racism only from some people and not others. It’s a one way street apparently.
