DEI is ruining UCLA. Seems the DEI pendulum swings too far the wrong way.

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

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If you read ur own link. The main point to ending race base admissions was the universities own doing. Mainly what I stated. That the O’Connor ruling in 2003? States there has to be an end game. They gave universities 25 years for an end game. And it’s been 20 years and the universities offered no end game. Thus it violates the 14th amendment.

Yes, I did read the dissenting opinion. 30 plus pages felt like more rambling "oh this has been "settled law" for 40 years and we should continue with settled law. Yet makes some references to Grutter and completely ignored Oconnor saying in Grutter that people have 25 years to figure this stuff out because it's should be needed in the future. UNC and Harvard officially offered no explanation in their defense how they would end affirmative action. They kept making references to the KKK, and the how UNC enrollment was 8% black and the North Carolina population was 22% black. What I found insulting was the dissenters failed to acknowledge UNC's basketball team (A traditional power house in college basektball part of the "blue bloods" Consistently has 70-80% black student athletes on their team and less than 20% white. Should UNC catere to AA when it comes to basketball outcomes? Have more unqualified white guys playing?

The sports analogy has been used so many times that it's lost its effect... but it still remains true.

Why do none of the AA DEI warriors ever fight for more Asian representation in the 2 big college money making sports? Clearly that is racism if you always start with your premise that all significant inferior differences in racial minority comparisons is the result of racism.

 

[rowsdower88]

The sports analogy has been used so many times that it's lost its effect... but it still remains true.

Why do none of the AA DEI warriors ever fight for more Asian representation in the 2 big college money making sports? Clearly that is racism if you always start with your premise that all significant inferior differences in racial minority comparisons is the result of racism.

If the racial demographics of college basketball teams affected the healthcare of millions of Americans, I would be concerned.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

It is ironic that people appeal to SCOTUS to contest discrimination against Asians. SCOTUS is supposed to be the best of the best. Someone should sue SCOTUS for being 0% Asian. If we assume that the USA is a meritocracy, Asians apparently suck at law.

Hahaha Trust me, it's coming. The Black, Hispanic, and Female boxes have been checked. Next up is Asian representation. We might then have to expand the court to adequately reflect the melting pot with room for Middle Eastern, Native American, LGBT, and India representation (yes, India is in Asia, but not what we typically consider "Asian." The Asian box must be Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc).

 

[cytocide]

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1913405117#:~:text=Under%20the%20care%20of%20Black,in%20the%20racial%20mortality%20difference.

Interesting study. To identify the race of the attending pediatrician they googled their picture.

 

[aneftp]

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1913405117#:~:text=Under%20the%20care%20of%20Black,in%20the%20racial%20mortality%20difference.

Interesting study. To identify the race of the attending pediatrician they googled their picture.

Too many factors. It’s like the Florida nica program for infants. It’s near impossible to collect for damages because the program requires damaged infants get routine prenatal care. Duh. In order to collect for infant damage. The party must provide proof they got full prenatal care. So those infants usually turned out healthy with full prenatal care

So a black baby who gets full prenatal care regardless of black or white doctor ends up being healthy and unstable to sue the Florida nica program for money.

So the study on infant mortality is very flawed. Because it doesn’t adjust for routine and full prenatal care.

 

[triggermaster]

It is ironic that people appeal to SCOTUS to contest discrimination against Asians. SCOTUS is supposed to be the best of the best. Someone should sue SCOTUS for being 0% Asian. If we assume that the USA is a meritocracy, Asians apparently suck at law.

Okay. Asians are under-represented. What percentage of the country is white and Christian vs what percentage of Democrat Supreme Court nominees are white and Christian in the last few decades?

(It’s 56% white Christian but 0% of dem nominees)

 

[cytocide]

Too many factors. It’s like the Florida nica program for infants. It’s near impossible to collect for damages because the program requires damaged infants get routine prenatal care. Duh. In order to collect for infant damage. The party must provide proof they got full prenatal care. So those infants usually turned out healthy with full prenatal care

So a black baby who gets full prenatal care regardless of black or white doctor ends up being healthy and unstable to sue the Florida nica program for money.

So the study on infant mortality is very flawed. Because it doesn’t adjust for routine and full prenatal care.

Of course. I just wonder what it was like to be the undergrad googling pictures and deciding race.

 

[rowsdower88]

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1913405117#:~:text=Under%20the%20care%20of%20Black,in%20the%20racial%20mortality%20difference.

Interesting study. To identify the race of the attending pediatrician they googled their picture.

Definitely a flaw in the study. Self report or birth certificate would be better, but there's no gold standard because determining an individual's race is always going to be ambiguous to some extent (socially determined in large part).

 

[BLADEMDA]

It is ironic that people appeal to SCOTUS to contest discrimination against Asians. SCOTUS is supposed to be the best of the best. Someone should sue SCOTUS for being 0% Asian. If we assume that the USA is a meritocracy, Asians apparently suck at law.

More likely, Trump couldn't find an experienced, Conservative Asian for the Court. Biden on the other hand, had no trouble finding a "qualified" Black female for the Court. The USA is a meritocracy (mostly) but SCOTUS is anything but a Court based on merit.

 

[ASA6]

Because that is exactly what they do. They decide what they want to believe must therefore be fact, and then bend everything to support that baseless conclusion, as opposed to an analytical approach of viewing all reason and data and then coming to logical conclusions afterwards based on that evidence.

Isn't that exactly what the anti dei people are doing in this thread? They came up with dei as a reason for a 50% board failure rate, despite having no data supporting it, and some data against it?

 

[rowsdower88]

More likely, Trump couldn't find an experienced, Conservative Asian for the Court. Biden on the other hand, had no trouble finding a "qualified" Black female for the Court. The USA is a meritocracy (mostly) but SCOTUS is anything but a Court based on merit.

Hon. James C. Ho

James C. Ho is a Circuit Judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. Before taking the bench on January 4, 2018, he was a partner and co-chair of the national Appellate and Constitutional Law practice group of Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP. As an appellate litigator for over a...

fedsoc.org

James Ho is right there on the 5th circuit. Don't know what you're talking about.

James Ho Wants to Be the Next Clarence Thomas

The Fifth Circuit judge is a far-right extremist and provocateur—and he’s angling for a seat on the Supreme Court.

www.thenation.com

Jackson is eminently qualified. SCOTUS justices aren't deities. They are all very fallible, you can even be an insurrection supporter. It's a job that many lawyers can do.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Ai will probably replace most doctors within 10 years anyway so probably not a huge deal tbh

 

[BLADEMDA]

If the racial demographics of college basketball teams affected the healthcare of millions of Americans, I would be concerned.

The Ends justify the means. That is the premise of your argument. If there are disparities in healthcare based on race we should ignore the law, ignore the Constitution and just discriminate against others to solve the problem. I propose the process must be lawful and constitutional; FSU follows the law because the majority of its students have low MCAT scores vs the rest of the state. They use a "holistic" process which discriminates against Whites and Asians to a large degree by clouding the admissions process with an emphasis on rural applicants, underserved communities and primary care. In addition, they add in another year of study with the "Bridge" program so the minority candidate with low scores can actually graduate med school along with passing his/her exams. A high achieving Asian male with a perfect Mcat score would likely not be a good fit for FSU College of Medicine. That same Asian applicant with a perfect Mcat may have a better chance at UCLA but that is still no guarantee.

DEI is alive and well at the majority of Law and Med Schools across the USA. Admission committees are making sure their classes are filled with a broad swath of students from all races regardless of test scores. Diversity over merit is simply the goal for the far left which dominates our university systems.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Hon. James C. Ho

James C. Ho is a Circuit Judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. Before taking the bench on January 4, 2018, he was a partner and co-chair of the national Appellate and Constitutional Law practice group of Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP. As an appellate litigator for over a...

fedsoc.org

James Ho is right there on the 5th circuit. Don't know what you're talking about.

James Ho Wants to Be the Next Clarence Thomas

The Fifth Circuit judge is a far-right extremist and provocateur—and he’s angling for a seat on the Supreme Court.

www.thenation.com

Jackson is eminently qualified. SCOTUS justices aren't deities. They are all very fallible, you can even be an insurrectionist. It's a job that many lawyers can do.

Heritage President: Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson Is Not Qualified for Supreme Court

WASHINGTON—President Joe Biden announced the appointment of Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson to the U.S. Supreme Court today, appeasing left-wing special interest groups and fulfilling a campaign promise of using race and sex to determine his nominee. Heritage President Kevin Roberts made the...

www.heritage.org

 

[rowsdower88]

The Ends justify the means. That is the premise of your argument.

Yes. Utilitarianism.

If there are disparities in healthcare based on race we should ignore the law

I never said we should ignore the law. I'm disappointed by the SCOTUS rulings and wish they were different. I don't have any problems with the bridge program you've shown, sounds great. We should have more of them.

DEI is alive and well at the majority of Law and Med Schools across the USA.

Yes, because DEI is not affirmative action.

 

[rowsdower88]

Heritage President: Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson Is Not Qualified for Supreme Court

WASHINGTON—President Joe Biden announced the appointment of Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson to the U.S. Supreme Court today, appeasing left-wing special interest groups and fulfilling a campaign promise of using race and sex to determine his nominee. Heritage President Kevin Roberts made the...

www.heritage.org

Truly a principled argument that questions her years on the bench and as a public defender to cast doubt on her legal reasoning. Is reading what you just linked me actually persuasive to you?

Like if I linked you a website that just had quotes from the President of the AFL-CIO talking about how Alito is a fascist, would that persuade you of anything?

She is a liberal. She is not "far-left" or "radical" to my knowledge and I wouldn't trust the President of the Heritage Foundation to inform me of that in any case.

 

[Goro]

Do you realize a 506
Score is 62% tile for blacks . While a 514 score is a 88% tile for Asians.
That’s a huge difference in scoring. It’s not “just 8 points”. It’s 26% difference

The average gpa entering students is also huge difference between under represented minority and whites/asians.

I really do not understand how you can keep defending this.

It can be defended because an MCAT score of 506 is predictive that the applicant can make it through med school.

It's the whole app that counts, not just stats.

 

[triggermaster]

Yes. Utilitarianism.



I never said we should ignore the law. I'm disappointed by the SCOTUS rulings and wish they were different. I don't have any problems with the bridge program you've shown, sounds great. We should have more of them.



Yes, because DEI is not affirmative action.

DEI is affirmative action. You can’t have equity AND diversity if the applicant pools aren’t comparable. No one can get a job in a DEI office if they aren’t willing to sacrifice equity for diversity.
It would be great if equitable practice produced reasonable levels of diversity, but if they did, DEI offices wouldn’t exist.

 

[aneftp]

It can be defended because an MCAT score of 506 is predictive that the applicant can make it through med school.

It's the whole app that counts, not just stats.

What can’t be defended is why doesn’t the average white/asian applicant with similar 506 score stand a chance getting in?

You seen the stats. Asians/whites are essentially competing with each other.

And if the whole application process includes other things like gpa. The gpa gap is also huge.

So as lots of Tik tok video shows. What are these DEI candidates bringing to the table to enter medical school ? Mediocrity like blade mentioned?

 

[ASA6]

What can’t be defended is why doesn’t the average white/asian applicant with similar 506 score stand a chance getting in?

You seen the stats. Asians/whites are essentially competing with each other.

And if the whole application process includes other things like gpa. The gpa gap is also huge.

So as lots of Tik tok video shows. What are these DEI candidates bringing to the table to enter medical school ? Mediocrity like blade mentioned?

What exactly is the gap? The urology study someone posted here had a usmle score of 237 vs 242. Is that really that big of a difference? Is someone with a 237 really going to be a bad urologist?

 

[aneftp]

What exactly is the gap? The urology study someone posted here had a usmle score of 237 vs 242. Is that really that big of a difference? Is someone with a 237 really going to be a bad urologist?

The gap is why does an Asian/white have to score 88% on average on Mcat to get into med school. Vs and URM scoring 26% lower percentile to get in. That is a significant gap. Same with average gpa.

“Results: A total of 1258 applicants submitted applications to our program during the 5-year period, including 872 males (69.3%) and 386 females (30.7%). Most applicants were White (43.5%), followed by Asian (28.3%), Hispanic/Latino (11.7%), and Black (7.0%). There was an association between race/ethnicity and USMLE scores. Median USMLE Step 1 scores for White, Asian, Hispanic/Latino, and Black applicants were 242, 242, 237, and 232, respectively (P < .001). As cutoff score increases, percentage of URM applicants decreases”

A 232 score for black applicants for urology means they are slightly below the or at the 50% tile for urology candidate. A 242 score for white/asian urology applicant means they are near the 78-80% percentile. That’s a huge difference.

Even the article suggested. Urm applications will decrease if programs have a hard known cutoff

 

[mdo1738]

DEI leads to Death, Errors, and Incompetence. There is precisely one study from about 20 years ago that shows the mythical “healthcare disparities” are modestly improved by having a doctor of the same race in one very specific scenario. Not real compelling. And definitely not compelling enough to take away spots from qualified applicants to give to those who are less capable.

 

[Goro]

What can’t be defended is why doesn’t the average white/asian applicant with similar 506 score stand a chance getting in?

You seen the stats. Asians/whites are essentially competing with each other.

And if the whole application process includes other things like gpa. The gpa gap is also huge.

So as lots of Tik tok video shows. What are these DEI candidates bringing to the table to enter medical school ? Mediocrity like blade mentioned?

Because enough Asians get in anyway. As in ORM.

Remember, this isn't about what you or other applicants want, it's about what UCLA wants.

 

[aneftp]

Because enough Asians get in anyway.

Enough blacks get college admission for college basketball. Most of whom likely wouldn’t get in the regular way like at duke . So why can’t it work both ways and have Asians gets sympathy admissions for basketball and direct admission to duke?

Think about it.

 

[Dr. 2B]

Guys, **** all this bull****! Let’s admit the brightest, sharpest students into med school. Let’s admit that weak candidates & their lack of knowledge & common sense will eventually harm/kill patients! I don’t care if you had 10,000 hours of community service if you can barely pass undergrad pre-med classes. This is coming from a doc 10 years post-residency who has seen this **** first hand. Not to be a dick, but if you’re not within the range (MCAT & gpa) of a med school you’re applying to, don’t do it!!! It’s not going to end well!
I know some brilliant, African American surgeons I’d put my kids life (or mine) in in a heartbeat. It’s bc they’re brilliant & sick surgeons. There’s white dude’s I wouldn’t let touch my worst enemy! The point of all of this is that in medicine we are responsible for patient’s lives. This isn’t about giving someone with a tough background & a similar gpa to an Asian kid an admission to undergrad over the Asian kid. This is medicine, it’s life & death at times, & we need to train the smartest/slickest candidates possible

 

[Gern Blansten]

Elon Musk points out DEI is illegal.

Elon Musk recently stated on X:

“DEI must DIE. The point was to end discrimination, not replace it with different discrimination.

“Diversity, Equity and Inclusion” are propaganda words for racism, sexism and other -isms.

This is just as morally wrong as any other racism and sexism. Changing the target class doesn’t make it right!”

It’s unusual that someone like Elon Musk, an African American himself, would take such a strong stance on this…

 

[deleted641888]

Guys, **** all this bull****! Let’s admit the brightest, sharpest students into med school. Let’s admit that weak candidates & their lack of knowledge & common sense will eventually harm/kill patients! I don’t care if you had 10,000 hours of community service if you can barely pass undergrad pre-med classes. This is coming from a doc 10 years post-residency who has seen this **** first hand. Not to be a dick, but if you’re not within the range (MCAT & gpa) of a med school you’re applying to, don’t do it!!! It’s not going to end well!
I know some brilliant, African American surgeons I’d put my kids life (or mine) in in a heartbeat. It’s bc they’re brilliant & sick surgeons. There’s white dude’s I wouldn’t let touch my worst enemy! The point of all of this is that in medicine we are responsible for patient’s lives. This isn’t about giving someone with a tough background & a similar gpa to an Asian kid an admission to undergrad over the Asian kid. This is medicine, it’s life & death at times, & we need to train the smartest/slickest candidates possible

Yeah! Enough of these people. We need to attract the best and the brightest and funnel them all into dermatology, plastic surgery, and orthopaedics. This is medicine after all. Life and death, baby.

 

[aneftp]

It’s unusual that someone like Elon Musk, an African American himself, would take such a strong stance on this…

We all know Elon comes from super rich family. He did have a leg up when starting his successful business ventures way before Tesla.

He could afford to take risks and have backup financial help if the business failed.

 

[feel69]

Blaming the problems of UCLA mainly on DEI is laughable. The true problem of medical education now is the university's reluctance to fail students and foster a competitive environment. Pre-clinical curriculum has been pass-fail, and so is step 1 now. And it is likely clerkships and step 2 are going that way too. Data has shown pass rates for Step 1 have tanked because going pass/fail has likely taken the fire that drives students to do well. Not the "DEI" boogeyman

 

[BLADEMDA]

The point of this discussion is that there are a limited number of spots for applicants to Med School and residency. This is a zero sum game in terms of who gets the spot. I much prefer a meritocracy based on test scores, grades and clerkship evaluations over race, gender and sexual orientation. I have no issues with the selection of DEI candidates whose metrics approximate rather closely the non DEI candidates. But, that is not what is going on in 2024. Candidates with much better stats are being denied residency spots and med school admission in favor of far less qualified individuals. Goro thinks this process is "fair" in 2024 in the name of diversity and inclusion. I firmly believe it is discrimination by another name. If the best candidate is an Asian American then by all means give him or her the spot as they deserve it. If a minority candidate has stats and grades very close to the Asian/White cohort then by all means give that person preference. But, throwing out all the customary standards does not foster "equality" for anyone.

________________________

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 provided just such a statutory ground: It forbids any institution receiving federal money from subjecting any person to discrimination based on race. It does not say that such discrimination may be allowed to rectify the effects of past discrimination, or to construct demographically representative student bodies, or to secure educational benefits from racial diversity. It flatly prohibits it.

Justice John Paul Stevens

John Paul Stevens - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Spikebd]

Yeah! Enough of these people. We need to attract the best and the brightest and funnel them all into dermatology, plastic surgery, and orthopaedics. This is medicine after all. Life and death, baby.

Taking a person to surgery is a major decision so uhhh ya I actually do want my surgeons to be the best and brightest. Same with my anesthesiologists. I don’t want the low-performing doctor caring for me or my kids or to be my work partner. I want to work with smart and hard-working people who will do the right thing.

DEI and affirmative action is the unfortunate road academia took the past 30 years or so and the consequences are DI(E)RE. We are officially in crisis in medicine.

 

[deleted1183938]

It’s unusual that someone like Elon Musk, an African American himself, would take such a strong stance on this…

Are you really this dumb when trying to understand what a Black Person is?

 

[deleted1183938]

You mean exactly like what you're doing as well? 😉

There is no agenda. I haven’t disputed the MCAT stats as far as I know. I am not stupid. I know what they are. You seem to be trying yo say that Black, Hispanic and Native Americans are inherently not as intelligent as White and Asian People. Because when I ask you why do you think URMs score lower you don’t care. You just want the deserving whites/Asians to get in. When someone else tells you that studies show the minority patients do better when cared by someone who looks like them you don’t seem to care either.
It’s like everything is about you and you don’t care about outcomes of the patients. Which is weird to me considering it’s patients who we take care of. It’s very egocentric. And people who have this inherent bias are faculty and in charge of URM students and are going to continue to foster a culture of biased evaluations/treatments that lead to the high numbers of URMs who don’t finish residency. It’s scary for these residents. And the cycle of racial health disparities then continues.

That’s problematic. We are supposed to be less ignorant the more educated we are and yet you….

 

[aneftp]

There is no agenda. I haven’t disputed the MCAT stats as far as I know. I am not stupid. I know what they are. You seem to be trying yo say that Black, Hispanic and Native Americans are inherently not as intelligent as White and Asian People. Because when I ask you why do you think URMs score lower you don’t care. You just want the deserving whites/Asians to get in. When someone else tells you that studies show the minority patients do better when cared by someone who looks like them you don’t seem to care either.
It’s like everything is about you and you don’t care about outcomes of the patients. Which is weird to me considering it’s patients who we take care of. It’s very egocentric. And people who have this inherent bias are faculty and in charge of URM students and are going to continue to foster a culture of biased evaluations/treatments that lead to the high numbers of URMs who don’t finish residency. It’s scary for these residents. And the cycle of racial health disparities then continues.

That’s problematic. We are supposed to be less ignorant the more educated we are and yet you….

We might as well re segregate everything again.

Asian patients do better with Asian doctors. (This is true) research

Black students do better with black teachers. (This is also true research)

People with this holistic agenda do not see the real world like I do. They feel it’s better to let in 150 under qualified under merit based students over more qualified students for the “better for society “. If that were true. Why are there less Asian elite leaders in the USA? Think about that. It’s the glass ceilings Asians hit again. They have racism against them. Just because more of them succeed doesn’t mean they don’t hit the racism as well.

Trump would rather nominate a white conservative female Supreme Court nominee than an Asian conservative male judge. Because the Asian male is becoming the white male in terms of reverse discrimination. If there had been a conservative Asian female judge. Maybe trump selects her. But trump plays the demographics game as well.

 

[rowsdower88]

We might as well re segregate everything again.

Asian patients do better with Asian doctors. (This is true) research

Black students do better with black teachers. (This is also true research)

People with this holistic agenda do not see the real world like I do. They feel it’s better to let in 150 under qualified under merit based students over more qualified students for the “better for society “. If that were true. Why are there less Asian elite leaders in the USA? Think about that. It’s the glass ceilings Asians hit again. They have racism against them. Just because more of them succeed doesn’t mean they don’t hit the racism as well.

Trump would rather nominate a white conservative female Supreme Court nominee than an Asian conservative male judge. Because the Asian male is becoming the white male in terms of reverse discrimination. If there had been a conservative Asian female judge. Maybe trump selects her. But trump plays the demographics game as well.

You're being dramatic.

We're talking about what, maybe an extra ~100 black doctors get produced across the country based on the differences between an idealized MCAT/GPA meritocracy and the status quo? In 2023 only 2,305 black students got accepted to med school, that's a 10% drop from 2021.

This is what I mean when I say the harm needs to be quantified. Is creating an extra 100 black docs at the expense of an imaginary meritocracy that harmful?

It's not like we live in some ideal world where everyone's MCAT and GPA scores get fed into a computer and everyone would be sorted out across the country to a school based on that. No, we have a system whereby you apply to a handful of schools and maybe you're lucky to get in at one. If we had some sort of nationwide filtering tool that would be interesting and might make me more concerned. In addition, the ~100 black students accepted on the margin aren't "under qualified" - they meet the qualifying criteria of whatever medical school they attend. Just like the lower performing white students who also get accepted across the country.

Also, you're WAY overestimating the racial concordance data. It's very modest in so far as the evidence exists, which is another reason why we should study it more. In fact I would say the data on racial concordance is mixed, but there seem to be some modest benefits in certain scenarios. I'm comfortable saying that because even modest benefits should be taken seriously when the problem of the black healthcare disparity is so bad and the cost of the status quo admissions is even smaller.

 

[aneftp]

You're being dramatic.

We're talking about what, maybe an extra ~100 black doctors get produced across the country based on the differences between an idealized MCAT/GPA meritocracy and the status quo? In 2023 only 2,305 black students got accepted to med school, that's a 10% drop from 2021.

This is what I mean when I say the harm needs to be quantified. Is creating an extra 100 black docs at the expense of an imaginary meritocracy that harmful?

It's not like we live in some ideal world where everyone's MCAT and GPA scores get fed into a computer and everyone would be sorted out across the country to a school based on that. No, we have a system whereby you apply to a handful of schools and maybe you're lucky to get in at one. If we had some sort of nationwide filtering tool that would be interesting and might make me more concerned. In addition, the ~100 black students accepted on the margin aren't "under qualified" - they meet the qualifying criteria of whatever medical school they attend. Just like the lower performing white students who also get accepted across the country.

Also, you're WAY overestimating the racial concordance data. It's very modest in so far as the evidence exists, which is another reason why we should study it more. In fact I would say the data on racial concordance is mixed, but there seem to be some modest benefits in certain scenarios. I'm comfortable saying that because even modest benefits should be taken seriously when the problem of the black healthcare disparity is so bad and the cost of the status quo is even smaller.

If they were truly creating 100-200 extra spaces. Creating a NBA g league level of medical school admissions process. I wouldn’t have an issue.

The nba has a regular draft with 2 rounds and 30 teams. So 60 players get selected based on true merit.

The feeder league is the nba g league. So let those under qualified but with potential to succeed in medical school enter a g league process. Some nba g league eventually do make it to the nba

That would be a fair compromise. Harms no one.

But the current system does create unknown harm to those who shoukd get those coveted slots.

Regardless many racial programs will hurt Asian students the most. But the liberals in the USA does not care about Asian over representation. They need to secure the coveted Hispanic and black votes first

Look at this program in northern Virginian at a magnet public high school. Where this tweaked the admissions process to increase the black and Hispanic enrollment.

You can’t say with a straight face the Asians enrollment didn’t suffered the most from this program. But ur ideology will say there are enough Asians already so tough. Deal with it. This is AFTER the Supreme Court decision in 2023. This is 2024 court ruling.

“
The Fairfax County School Board overhauled the Thomas Jefferson admissions process in 2020, scrapping a standardized test. The new policy gives weight in favor of applicants who are economically disadvantaged or still learning English, but it does not take race into account.”

“The effect in the first freshman class admitted under it was to increase the percentage of Black students from 1% to 7% and Hispanic students from 3% to 11%. Both groups have been greatly underrepresented for decades. Asian American representation decreased from 73% to 54”

The Supreme Court leaves in place the admissions plan at an elite Virginia public high school - WTOP News

The Supreme Court on Tuesday left in place the admissions policy at Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in Virginia, despite claims that it discriminates against highly qualified Asian Americans.

wtop.com

 

[rowsdower88]

If they were truly creating 100-200 extra spaces. Creating a NBA g league level of medical school admissions process. I wouldn’t have an issue.

The nba has a regular draft with 2 rounds and 30 teams. So 60 players get selected based on true merit.

The feeder league is the nba g league. So let those under qualified but with potential to succeed in medical school enter a g league process. Some nba g league eventually do make it to the nba

That would be a fair compromise. Harms no one.

I don't understand this point. I don't follow the NBA.

But the current system does create unknown harm to those who shoukd get those coveted slots.

Regardless many racial programs will hurt Asian students the most. But the liberals in the USA does not care about Asian over representation. They need to secure the coveted Hispanic and black votes first

Listen man, you keep repeating the same points. I've already conceded this point but I'll do it again: if we wanted to have a system that was entirely GPA/MCAT score focused, then more asian students would get in. What I'm saying is that for every 1 black student that system would remove from a med school, it would also remove multiple low scoring white students. So I'll ask you: Why do you care about black students getting in when you should be more concerned about lower performing white students getting in? Just from a raw numbers standpoint, to not confuse you. If we wanted to create a nationwide med school application system that just sends students to various schools across the country based on their MCAT and GPA, that would be a serious step towards meritocracy that I would consider. Why don't you tell me more about what your ideal meritocracy looks like. Does it take poverty into account? Does poverty affect your dream meritocracy? Does it matter if some schools are more expensive and that affects students preferences?

Look at this program in northern Virginian at a magnet public high school. Where this tweaked the admissions process to increase the black and Hispanic enrollment.

You can’t say with a straight face the Asians enrollment didn’t suffered the most from this program. But ur ideology will say there are enough Asians already so tough. Deal with it. This is AFTER the Supreme Court decision in 2023. This is 2024 court ruling.

There are fewer asian students being admitted to that magnet school following that change. I said that with a straight face. I won't pretend to know what the ideal number of asian Americans admitted to a Virginia magnet school should be. My "ideology" isn't telling me that. But why are you against that program? It sounds like it's race neutral in application and designed to apply to all students independent of race. The idea that "merit" as measured by middle school test performance should be the only factor dictating high public school selection is funny to me. I guess I'm very skeptical of the idea that middle schooler merit can be accurately measured at all.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Are you really this dumb when trying to understand what a Black Person is?

C’mon, @choco You’ve got to sharpen your satire recognition skills with your pseudonym identities.

 

[pgg]

The sports analogy has been used so many times that it's lost its effect... but it still remains true.

Why do none of the AA DEI warriors ever fight for more Asian representation in the 2 big college money making sports? Clearly that is racism if you always start with your premise that all significant inferior differences in racial minority comparisons is the result of racism.

The sports analogy is idiotic and you (should) know it.

Obviously competence in a sport like basketball is highly dependent and predictable from an array of objectively measurable physical attributes and testable skills. There is a SMALL pool of athletic talent that can succeed at that level.

The truth is that even the most charitable race-based admission to medical school is still very likely to be capable of doing the work. There is a LARGE pool of academic talent that can succeed and become doctors. In the aggregate, you'll see more board failures from the matriculants with lower stats, but this may be an acceptable outcome for the system, given the goals of the system.

Goals that don't necessarily include fairness to the hopes and dreams of undergrads who want to be doctors. There is a compelling argument against affirmative action (and its thinly disguised successor policies that achieve the same effect) - unfairness to academically superior applicants who lose out. However many or few of them there may be.

But put away this bull**** argument about Asians and basketball scholarships. It's a dumb argument that weakens an otherwise defensible position.


Now, if you want to argue that college sports are a racket and a moneymaker that shouldn't have any connection at all to academic admission to those institutions, we could probably find some common ground. They're pro athletes and they should be paid pro athlete money via pro athlete contracts. If some idiot who's an amazing basketball player wants to wear a Duke jersey and play for that professional franchise (that's what it is) we shouldn't have to pretend he's leaving the court after practice to go meet his chemistry study partners. This fantasy lip service to "student athletes" when it comes to NCAA basketball is ridiculous.

 

[pgg]

Are you really this dumb when trying to understand what a Black Person is?

Honest question, and I'm not trying to be unpleasant.

Is English your first language? Were you born in the US?

You seem to miss a lot of context, idiom, and references that are obvious to US-born English speakers. Which is OK, of course. I'm just curious.

 

[deleted1183938]

Honest question, and I'm not trying to be unpleasant.

Is English your first language? Were you born in the US?

You seem to miss a lot of context, idiom, and references that are obvious to US-born English speakers. Which is OK, of course. I'm just curious.

Some Black People like to be called Black and some like to be called African American. Either way we all know what their roots are. From Africa with their skin being of Brown shades.
They are not White people from Africa.

Maybe I am just very practical, concrete and possibly on the spectrum. I have been told I am too serious sometimes. Who knows. Many people in medicine are on the spectrum.

 

[deleted1183938]

View attachment 387257
C’mon, @choco You’ve got to sharpen your satire recognition skills with your pseudonym identities.

And whoever this @choco is I think she would be great fun. Glad she ruffles the feathers of so many people on here. I hope she’s enjoying her time back in Africa or wherever she is.
Some jokes are lost in translation. On the internet. Especially on many of us who are likely on spectrum.

 

[aneftp]

The sports analogy is idiotic and you (should) know it.

Obviously competence in a sport like basketball is highly dependent and predictable from an array of objectively measurable physical attributes and testable skills. There is a SMALL pool of athletic talent that can succeed at that level.

The truth is that even the most charitable race-based admission to medical school is still very likely to be capable of doing the work. There is a LARGE pool of academic talent that can succeed and become doctors. In the aggregate, you'll see more board failures from the matriculants with lower stats, but this may be an acceptable outcome for the system, given the goals of the system.

Goals that don't necessarily include fairness to the hopes and dreams of undergrads who want to be doctors. There is a compelling argument against affirmative action (and its thinly disguised successor policies that achieve the same effect) - unfairness to academically superior applicants who lose out. However many or few of them there may be.

But put away this bull**** argument about Asians and basketball scholarships. It's a dumb argument that weakens an otherwise defensible position.


Now, if you want to argue that college sports are a racket and a moneymaker that shouldn't have any connection at all to academic admission to those institutions, we could probably find some common ground. They're pro athletes and they should be paid pro athlete money via pro athlete contracts. If some idiot who's an amazing basketball player wants to wear a Duke jersey and play for that professional franchise (that's what it is) we shouldn't have to pretend he's leaving the court after practice to go meet his chemistry study partners. This fantasy lip service to "student athletes" when it comes to NCAA basketball is ridiculous.

People will argue what they feel is “right” in their minds.

Your argument is holistically. It’s ok to push under qualified people into medicine as long as it benefits society. Regardless if it’s fair or not. I’m fine with ur line of thinking.

My argument is this line of thinking should apply across all spectrum of industry and vocations even athletics. It can expand into major industries like business ventures.

And you tried to minimized the point I’m making with under represented athletes like Asians into basketball program. There is more to athletics skill than pure physical traits. Some of the best nba players don’t jump the highest or are the quickest. The work on their games. Imagine college like duke only recruit the top of the top. Yet neglect under represented Asian athletes. So they should be required to give them a slot on the team and take away a slot from a more deserving athlete who has better “stats”.

 

[ASA6]

The gap is why does an Asian/white have to score 88% on average on Mcat to get into med school. Vs and URM scoring 26% lower percentile to get in. That is a significant gap. Same with average gpa.

“Results: A total of 1258 applicants submitted applications to our program during the 5-year period, including 872 males (69.3%) and 386 females (30.7%). Most applicants were White (43.5%), followed by Asian (28.3%), Hispanic/Latino (11.7%), and Black (7.0%). There was an association between race/ethnicity and USMLE scores. Median USMLE Step 1 scores for White, Asian, Hispanic/Latino, and Black applicants were 242, 242, 237, and 232, respectively (P < .001). As cutoff score increases, percentage of URM applicants decreases”

A 232 score for black applicants for urology means they are slightly below the or at the 50% tile for urology candidate. A 242 score for white/asian urology applicant means they are near the 78-80% percentile. That’s a huge difference.

Even the article suggested. Urm applications will decrease if programs have a hard known cutoff

People will argue what they feel is “right” in their minds.

Your argument is holistically. It’s ok to push under qualified people into medicine as long as it benefits society. Regardless if it’s fair or not. I’m fine with ur line of thinking.

My argument is this line of thinking should apply across all spectrum of industry and vocations even athletics. It can expand into major industries like business ventures.

And you tried to minimized the point I’m making with under represented athletes like Asians into basketball program. There is more to athletics skill than pure physical traits. Some of the best nba players don’t jump the highest or are the quickest. The work on their games. Imagine college like duke only recruit the top of the top. Yet neglect under represented Asian athletes. So they should be required to give them a slot on the team and take away a slot from a more deserving athlete who has better “stats”.

Still waiting for someone with data that the problem at UCLA is due to dei.

 

[thinkorswim]

And whoever this @choco is I think she would be great fun. Glad she ruffles the feathers of so many people on here. I hope she’s enjoying her time back in Africa or wherever she is.

Who said choco is a she? 😉

 

[aneftp]

Still waiting for someone with data that the problem at UCLA is due to dei.

So what if data gets release that proves dei shady admissions for under causes bad grades on self exams and usmle scores

The dei propaganda machine still will argue grades don’t make good or bad doctors. They will still write a bottom 1/3 of the class dei med school graduate still provides better outcomes if they treat people of the same race.

We might as well expand this and have dei arnp treating primary care of white/asian male doctors because arnp dei provider can relate better. The possibilities for healthcare outcome based research is endless. The aamc and gmc council would have blood on their hands if we can prove arnp who is black treats black patients better than white and Asian male doctors.

 

[deleted1183938]

Who said choco is a she? 😉

Someone. A long time ago. When I started posting on here.

 

[aneftp]

That's not an argument I've made or seen anyone make on here. I think we should continue holding medical students to high standards.



You're arguing with your own imagination. Not anyone's arguments or questions that have been posed to you.

It’s a touchy subject. Already there are “studies” women primary care doctors get better patient satisfaction results than male primary care docs because subjectively patients feel the female docs spend more time with them. That’s why all these data points are subjective at best.
I’m linking a ucla.com article! To provide how ucla likes to promote DEI. And yes. Women count as DEI also.

Treatment from female doctors leads to lower mortality and hospital readmission rates

Patients have lower rates of mortality and hospital readmissions when treated by female physicians, with female patients benefitting more than their male counterparts.

www.uclahealth.org

It’s the white makes and Asian males no ones cares about anymore.

 

[GassYous]

Who said choco is a she? 😉

And back in Africa?

 

[deleted1183938]

And back in Africa?

Well it’s easy to do a search where she has been referenced in my posts and see all the info given there. Not rocket science.
You are welcome. Hehe