Derm hopeful to Just trying to graduate

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Helena07

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I applied to Dermatology with a step score in the 220s and a rank in the middle of my class. I received 3 interviews, a waitlist, and encouraging words. Then just last week I found out I failed step 2 ck. I'm devastated. Reflecting back my anxiety combined with a horrible fall semester (a lot of unusually terrible things happened within that time frame that were outside of my control) had a lot to do with it but I'm mostly afraid because I don't know what to do. I can't study in 2 weeks to participate in the SOAP so am I just jobless with a worthless CV full of derm stuff? Please advise.

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I applied to Dermatology with a step score in the 220s and a rank in the middle of my class. I received 3 interviews, a waitlist, and encouraging words. Then just last week I found out I failed step 2 ck. I'm devastated. Reflecting back my anxiety combined with a horrible fall semester (a lot of unusually terrible things happened within that time frame that were outside of my control) had a lot to do with it but I'm mostly afraid because I don't know what to do. I can't study in 2 weeks to participate in the SOAP so am I just jobless with a worthless CV full of derm stuff? Please advise.

Can’t u just pass Step 2 ASAP and match FM/IM?
 
I applied to Dermatology with a step score in the 220s and a rank in the middle of my class. I received 3 interviews, a waitlist, and encouraging words. Then just last week I found out I failed step 2 ck. I'm devastated. Reflecting back my anxiety combined with a horrible fall semester (a lot of unusually terrible things happened within that time frame that were outside of my control) had a lot to do with it but I'm mostly afraid because I don't know what to do. I can't study in 2 weeks to participate in the SOAP so am I just jobless with a worthless CV full of derm stuff? Please advise.

You can always match into a prelim IM program, and hopefully you can expand it to a categorical spot.

I am sorry this happened to you, and I don't mean to be a jerk, but was there a reason you did not take a research year? I'm surprised no one recommended it. If possible, you could pull out of the match, do a research year, and reapply to IM categorical and derm programs next year
 
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I applied to Dermatology with a step score in the 220s and a rank in the middle of my class. I received 3 interviews, a waitlist, and encouraging words. Then just last week I found out I failed step 2 ck. I'm devastated. Reflecting back my anxiety combined with a horrible fall semester (a lot of unusually terrible things happened within that time frame that were outside of my control) had a lot to do with it but I'm mostly afraid because I don't know what to do. I can't study in 2 weeks to participate in the SOAP so am I just jobless with a worthless CV full of derm stuff? Please advise.

I'm curious as to why you felt confident applying dermatology with your scores? I'm surprised you even got 3 interviews as that in and of itself is incredible. Did you have some other redeeming aspect that you were hoping would get you in?

Hopefully you also applied for IM prelims and hopefully they can expand that into a full IM residency so you at least get to practice medicine.
 
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Sorry you got stuck in such a tough spot... I think your options are either retake and pass before SOAP, or withdraw from match, delay graduation and take research year. If you were to retake, it would have to be very soon because it takes a couple weeks to get your score back.
 
Can’t u just pass Step 2 ASAP and match FM/IM?

Yeah next year. Interview season is over and I doubt they'll open a special spot for a derm reject with failed boards
 
One classmate matched ophtho with no CK score. Not even sure she had CS.
 
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You have a couple of options:

1. Continue ahead with the Derm match. Don't release your score. As long as you're not an IMG (which you didn't mention, and seems unlikely from your story), you don't need to pass CK to participate in the match. If you match somewhere, then you need to pass CK before residency starts (or if required by your school for graduation, before their deadline). If someone matches you, they have to take you even with the failed CK.

2. If you don't match, you can participate in SOAP. Will you get a spot with a failed CK? I think it's unlikely, but it doesn't hurt to try. SOAP is free with your ERAS fees you've already paid.

3. Assuming #1 and #2 are unsuccessful, you need a Plan B. You should be working on a Plan B now, rather than waiting for match week, so you have a plan. Options are:

A. Extend your medical education, take an extra year, more electives, more time to study for CK. Apply in the match for next year.
B. Don't extend, retake CK and pass, and then hunt around for an offcycle spot. Apply in the match for next year, if you don't find a spot.

In any case, if you don't match into derm this cycle, your chances are essentially zero going forward. You need a non-derm Plan B. A research year in derm is not going to fix this, and then you'll find it harder to find spots in other fields.
 
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[QUOTE="aProgDirector, post: 19676860, member: 118297"A research year in derm is not going to fix this, and then you'll find it harder to find spots in other fields.[/QUOTE]

Legitimate question, why won't a research year help? My understanding is that it's recommended for unmatched applicants in competitive fields. You can develop connections at a program that would then overlook the blemishes on your application. Is that flawed reasoning?
 
[QUOTE="aProgDirector, post: 19676860, member: 118297"A research year in derm is not going to fix this, and then you'll find it harder to find spots in other fields.

Legitimate question, why won't a research year help? My understanding is that it's recommended for unmatched applicants in competitive fields. You can develop connections at a program that would then overlook the blemishes on your application. Is that flawed reasoning?

Research years are great for strengthening borderline applicants or for making good applicants great. 220s step 1 and failed Step 2 CK isn't anywhere close to borderline. It's unlikely any PD would take an applicant like that with the massive number of exceptional candidates they're already turning down. Far too high risk for the program.
 
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Research years are great for strengthening borderline applicants or for making good applicants great. 220s step 1 and failed Step 2 CK isn't anywhere close to borderline. It's unlikely any PD would take an applicant like that with the massive number of exceptional candidates they're already turning down. Far too high risk for the program.

I'm not sure it's even a case of risk as much as it is "we're a derm program so we're not exactly hurting for other candidates".
 
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I'm curious as to why you felt confident applying dermatology with your scores? I'm surprised you even got 3 interviews as that in and of itself is incredible. Did you have some other redeeming aspect that you were hoping would get you in?

Hopefully you also applied for IM prelims and hopefully they can expand that into a full IM residency so you at least get to practice medicine.
This is kind of a nonsense thing to say considering the NRMP shows that a few students match with scores in the 220s every year. A student from my school matched with 220s ob both steps the year before last year. I also did mention that I had a CV full derm stuff. All of that is from doing a research year and doing various other projects throughout medical school.
 
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You can always match into a prelim IM program, and hopefully you can expand it to a categorical spot.

I am sorry this happened to you, and I don't mean to be a jerk, but was there a reason you did not take a research year? I'm surprised no one recommended it. If possible, you could pull out of the match, do a research year, and reapply to IM categorical and derm programs next year
I did do a research year plus a few projects with other dermatologists.
 
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You have a couple of options:

1. Continue ahead with the Derm match. Don't release your score. As long as you're not an IMG (which you didn't mention, and seems unlikely from your story), you don't need to pass CK to participate in the match. If you match somewhere, then you need to pass CK before residency starts (or if required by your school for graduation, before their deadline). If someone matches you, they have to take you even with the failed CK.

2. If you don't match, you can participate in SOAP. Will you get a spot with a failed CK? I think it's unlikely, but it doesn't hurt to try. SOAP is free with your ERAS fees you've already paid.

3. Assuming #1 and #2 are unsuccessful, you need a Plan B. You should be working on a Plan B now, rather than waiting for match week, so you have a plan. Options are:

A. Extend your medical education, take an extra year, more electives, more time to study for CK. Apply in the match for next year.
B. Don't extend, retake CK and pass, and then hunt around for an offcycle spot. Apply in the match for next year, if you don't find a spot.

In any case, if you don't match into derm this cycle, your chances are essentially zero going forward. You need a non-derm Plan B. A research year in derm is not going to fix this, and then you'll find it harder to find spots in other fields.


My understanding is that you have to pass CK in order to participate in the match now and if you don't have passing scores by the deadline they withdraw you. Nobody other than the Dean's office knows that I failed so I'm still going to interviews. I have one derm and a TY left.
My Dean did say I could extend my schooling so I can be a US senior rather than US grad in the next match but I don't know how much that matters to programs.
 
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One classmate matched ophtho with no CK score. Not even sure she had CS.


Optho matches before everyone else just like urology. Derm matches in the regular match.
 
This is kind of a nonsense thing to say considering the NRMP shows that a few students match with scores in the 220s every year. A student from my school matched with 220s ob both steps the year before last year. I also did mention that I had a CV full derm stuff. All of that is from doing a research year and doing various other projects throughout medical school.

Thanks for the response, I wasn't sure originally whether you had the research year or not, but that makes a lot more sense now why you would be applying. I'm really sorry it didn't work out. Obviously you cared enough about dermatology to put in the extra year, and it's a shame that didn't work out. Is there any hope that your research year institution would take you if you could pass Step 2 this year or next?
 
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My understanding is that you have to pass CK in order to participate in the match now and if you don't have passing scores by the deadline they withdraw you. Nobody other than the Dean's office knows that I failed so I'm still going to interviews. I have one derm and a TY left.
My Dean did say I could extend my schooling so I can be a US senior rather than US grad in the next match but I don't know how much that matters to programs.

This is incorrect. Only IMG's must pass Step 2, because they need it for ECFMG certification. There is no such requirement for US MD's and DO's. Some individual programs may decide that they require Step 2, and if you don't have it they will remove you from the list. But that's it. So you can still ride out the match, and see what happens. And if you do match, they can't dump you once they find out. The match is binding on both parties. They may not be happy about it.

So, Plan A: Continue with match, hope for the best. If any program asks for your S2 score, either don't respond / play dumb, or email them your result. If you re-release it in ERAS, everyone sees it.

What to do if you don't match derm this year is more complicated. I pointed this out above, but it's actually a bit more nuanced.

One thing is really important to hear: If you don't get a derm spot this year, you're not getting one. Continuing to work towards a derm spot will likely end in misery for you. You already have a research year -- another will not help. You'll have a failed CK score. You only got 3 interviews this year, you'll get less next year. You really need another career plan if this doesn't work out.

Options:
1. Put your TY/Prelims on your main rank list, starting at #4. If you don't match derm, this gives you the chance to match into just a prelim. This then allows you to re-apply for derm positions next year (bad idea), or transition into a PGY-2 year in IM (if that's what you see yourself doing). You would also be able to SOAP into any open A positions (derm, if any. Or Rads, if interested. Or others).

2. Don't put your TY/Prelims on your main rank list, and SOAP for Categorical spots.

3. Do none of those (or try, and not SOAP), and either extend training, or do something for a gap year. In either case, my advice would be to re-direct your career in a different direction. Else, if you apply to derm and a backup field, there's a reasonable chance that the backup field programs will look at your app and dump it, recognizing that you really want derm.

Regarding extending medical school to apply as a US senior vs graduating and filling a gap year, there's no correct answer. Conventional wisdom here on SDN is that it's better to be a US Senior, because if you look at NRMP stats, they match at 95+% and previous US grads match at a much lower percentage. But that's a very skewed comparison, because the previous US grads are presumably concentrated with people who had application problems like yourself. Staying a US senior doesn't give you a leg up in the match. What it would do is allow you to do a bunch of new rotations in new fields to find something else. It's def the best idea -- as long as your school isn't going to charge you another $50K for it. In that case, it's a tough call.
 
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I'm not sure it's even a case of risk as much as it is "we're a derm program so we're not exactly hurting for other candidates".

This is what I've he They take who they want. I talked to a LOT of people before applying to derm and even though the average scores are super high they are quite a few people that got in through networking with lower scores than I.
This is incorrect. Only IMG's must pass Step 2, because they need it for ECFMG certification. There is no such requirement for US MD's and DO's. Some individual programs may decide that they require Step 2, and if you don't have it they will remove you from the list. But that's it. So you can still ride out the match, and see what happens. And if you do match, they can't dump you once they find out. The match is binding on both parties. They may not be happy about it.

So, Plan A: Continue with match, hope for the best. If any program asks for your S2 score, either don't respond / play dumb, or email them your result. If you re-release it in ERAS, everyone sees it.

What to do if you don't match derm this year is more complicated. I pointed this out above, but it's actually a bit more nuanced.

One thing is really important to hear: If you don't get a derm spot this year, you're not getting one. Continuing to work towards a derm spot will likely end in misery for you. You already have a research year -- another will not help. You'll have a failed CK score. You only got 3 interviews this year, you'll get less next year. You really need another career plan if this doesn't work out.

Options:
1. Put your TY/Prelims on your main rank list, starting at #4. If you don't match derm, this gives you the chance to match into just a prelim. This then allows you to re-apply for derm positions next year (bad idea), or transition into a PGY-2 year in IM (if that's what you see yourself doing). You would also be able to SOAP into any open A positions (derm, if any. Or Rads, if interested. Or others).

2. Don't put your TY/Prelims on your main rank list, and SOAP for Categorical spots.

3. Do none of those (or try, and not SOAP), and either extend training, or do something for a gap year. In either case, my advice would be to re-direct your career in a different direction. Else, if you apply to derm and a backup field, there's a reasonable chance that the backup field programs will look at your app and dump it, recognizing that you really want derm.

Regarding extending medical school to apply as a US senior vs graduating and filling a gap year, there's no correct answer. Conventional wisdom here on SDN is that it's better to be a US Senior, because if you look at NRMP stats, they match at 95+% and previous US grads match at a much lower percentage. But that's a very skewed comparison, because the previous US grads are presumably concentrated with people who had application problems like yourself. Staying a US senior doesn't give you a leg up in the match. What it would do is allow you to do a bunch of new rotations in new fields to find something else. It's def the best idea -- as long as your school isn't going to charge you another $50K for it. In that case, it's a tough call.


I'm speaking with one of our Deans tomorrow so I'll have to clarify. Last time I spoke with him he said the dean's office would pull me out of the match not that programs would not rank me.
 
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Thanks for the response, I wasn't sure originally whether you had the research year or not, but that makes a lot more sense now why you would be applying. I'm really sorry it didn't work out. Obviously you cared enough about dermatology to put in the extra year, and it's a shame that didn't work out. Is there any hope that your research year institution would take you if you could pass Step 2 this year or next?


Nope, I did my research year at a top 10 derm program which doesn't even interview all of it's research fellows. Another misstep, I know, but I was really flying blind at the time. I busted my ass networking and doing research which is the only reason I have interviews at all. It's very disheartening to go through all of that only to stumble right at the goal line.
 
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This is incorrect. Only IMG's must pass Step 2, because they need it for ECFMG certification. There is no such requirement for US MD's and DO's. Some individual programs may decide that they require Step 2, and if you don't have it they will remove you from the list. But that's it. So you can still ride out the match, and see what happens. And if you do match, they can't dump you once they find out. The match is binding on both parties. They may not be happy about it.

OP, I truly wish you the best of luck. I hope we both can prove on March 11th that a single Step score does not dictate the quality of the individual.

I want to point out that he/she has already submitted ERAS and her board scores back in September. No one will know about this CK result, just pass it before you start residency (if no one has asked that you release it yet, they won't before they release their rank list...heck most rank lists are already sealed at this point). Even if they were to SOAP, again, he/she already submitted the application with just Step 1. I doubt they have to resubmit their scores for SOAP, so again just pass CK before graduation. Applying next year would be more of an issue because you would have to submit your board scores and they would see it.
 
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I'm speaking with one of our Deans tomorrow so I'll have to clarify. Last time I spoke with him he said the dean's office would pull me out of the match not that programs would not rank me.

That would be unfortunate, as there is no requirement that they do so. Your dean's office only has to pull you out if you won't graduate by June.

Even if they were to SOAP, again, he/she already submitted the application with just Step 1. I doubt they have to resubmit their scores for SOAP, so again just pass CK before graduation.

Unfortunately (for the OP), this isn't correct. Once you have a new score back, if you submit any new applications (SOAP or otherwise), your new scores go to those new programs. Old apps are only updated if you re-release your scores. So, in SOAP, the new score will be sent.
 
That would be unfortunate, as there is no requirement that they do so. Your dean's office only has to pull you out if you won't graduate by June.



Unfortunately (for the OP), this isn't correct. Once you have a new score back, if you submit any new applications (SOAP or otherwise), your new scores go to those new programs. Old apps are only updated if you re-release your scores. So, in SOAP, the new score will be sent.



Wow, I didn't know that. I haven't gotten a chance to speak with the dean yet. Is there anything I can do to prevent them from pulling me out?
 
Research years are great for strengthening borderline applicants or for making good applicants great. 220s step 1 and failed Step 2 CK isn't anywhere close to borderline. It's unlikely any PD would take an applicant like that with the massive number of exceptional candidates they're already turning down. Far too high risk for the program.

What in your estimation is a "borderline" applicant?

This is kind of a nonsense thing to say considering the NRMP shows that a few students match with scores in the 220s every year. A student from my school matched with 220s ob both steps the year before last year. I also did mention that I had a CV full derm stuff. All of that is from doing a research year and doing various other projects throughout medical school.

Talking to the 220 derm matches, what would you say you learned from them about how they succeeded?

This is what I've he They take who they want. I talked to a LOT of people before applying to derm and even though the average scores are super high they are quite a few people that got in through networking with lower scores than I.

I'm speaking with one of our Deans tomorrow so I'll have to clarify. Last time I spoke with him he said the dean's office would pull me out of the match not that programs would not rank me.

Networking = going to conferences? What other opportunities for networking are there?
 
What in your estimation is a "borderline" applicant?

Obviously this is incredibly subjective, but I view derm as having tiers of qualifications. I may have forgotten something

Tier 1 Qualifications:
-Step 1
-Research

Tier 2 Qualifications:
AOA
Clinical grades
Letters
School reputation

Tier 3 Qualifications:
Everything else

An exceptional applicant will have all of tier 1 and tier 2 checked off, no one doubts that they will match, and likely at an amazing program.

A good applicant will have all of tier 1 and some of tier 2, Typical 250, several pubs, some Honors +/-AOA or good school. They'll probably also match somewhere.

A good applicant could also be weak (not deficient) in one aspect of tier 1, but have everything else be great. 240 + research year with tons of pubs, or 260 with only a few case reports/posters. Again these guys will probably match somewhere.

Borderline is impossible to define exactly, but I'd say they are candidates who are typically lacking something major from tier 1 as well as tier 2. There's no hard rule for how low your step score or how few publications you need to be considered borderline, but your PD will probably be able to tell you if you're a borderline candidate. Basically these are the people who you could easily see going either way on match day.
 
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don't release your Step 2 CK scores, they are not required for the match for any speciality. Continue with your derm match, if you do not match, go forward with SOAP without releasing your Step 2 CK (obviously don't lie if you get explicitly asked about it). Start studying for it and pass it.
 
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What in your estimation is a "borderline" applicant?



Talking to the 220 derm matches, what would you say you learned from them about how they succeeded?



Networking = going to conferences? What other opportunities for networking are there?


I only got interviews from places where I had a connection. They weren't even strong connections. I literally spoke to one faculty member for 5 minutes then emailed her about my progress after submitting ERAS and got an interveiw invite a week later. I would tell someone applying with scores in the 220s to talk to as many derm faculty members as possible, especially if they are in their prime. Also do a research fellowship, perferable at a place where they interview their fellows, so you can learn how things work as well as get publications.
 
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I only got interviews from places where I had a connection. They weren't even strong connections. I literally spoke to one faculty member for 5 minutes then emailed her about my progress after submitting ERAS and got an interveiw invite a week later. I would tell someone applying with scores in the 220s to talk to as many derm faculty members as possible, especially if they are in their prime. Also do a research fellowship, perferable at a place where they interview their fellows, so you can learn how things work as well as get publications.

Research fellowship instead of an away as a 4th year?
 
A research fellowship is usually a full year.

Oh, I thought he was referring to a non-clinical 4th year away rotation. I've heard of people doing those instead of aways at programs that are notorious for not interviewing their clinical rotators as well, but was wondering how you would know about the existence of these types of programs before applying to their away programs so at least you'd get some research out of the experience if an interview is out of the question.
 
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