Differences between DO and MD education

[Beau Geste]

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I know my MD isnt the same but if you want to think your DO is go ahead. On that note I am out and wont be coming back here Ill let you guys make each other feel great. Sure your patients wont know if you are MD or DO but if you cant be the doctor you want to be you will. 😉

Bye! 👎

 

[Bull's eye]

Thank you for exempting me..If you looked over my previous posts I simply stated that life is tougher for DOs in general (people being dumb IMO) and in the competitive fields. As far as DOs in Peds or IM I dont know how the top notch programs treat you guys. For Peds I dont know who gets into CHOP or Childrens in Chicago, for IM I dont know who goes to Harvard or Hopkins. All that being said not everyone wants to go to those places.. As stated time and again going into FP, medicine, and Peds doesnt require much more than getting out of DO or MD school in the US or abroad. I think everyone can agree the real answer to the "difference" besides philosphical difference is the ability to get into SOME of the top programs in SOME fields and generally getting into competitive Allo fields all together.

I don't think anyone is arguing that a DO trying to land a competitive Allopathic residency is harder than if you were an MD. Just not to the extent that most people, pre-meds, or even med students think. Furthermore, I certainly wouldn't say I'm not going to DO school because I will have no chance in _________ Specialty.

 

[NRAI2001]

You might want to ask some current 4th yr DOs about this. I would say that the stigma is more than slight and on top of that I would say that it is considerably more than "slightly harder" to get into "a few specialties". I would say DOs are virtually SHUT OUT of Derm, Ophtho, Rad Onc, Rads, ENT, Urology, NeuroSurg, Ortho and a few others. So if you call them a "few" then you are right. I know that DOs have their own residencies but they dont have a ton of spots in these fields. In addition from what I heard this bias continues into fellowships as well. Keep in mind if you want to do MD residencies many require/prefer you take USMLE Steps and Comlex, and even then it seems to me they are discrimintated against. I.e. 2 applicants totally the same at 50% in their class and same USMLE (lets say a little above avg) at 220, the MD gets a ton more interviews. I am not flaming just stating how things are. Let me state that I am cool with DOs, I am just stating how I have seen them get treated as well as seeing and hearing from them the difficulties they face. Take it for what it is worth.

Also to the poster who wants to take on the stereotypes, the DOs still have a long way to go in certain fields. Sadly taking on these forces has to do with changing the minds of Program Directors and I am not sure how you plan on accomplishing that.

Do u think that FMGs have more/less of these stigmas than DOs? Do these stigmas follow FMGs into fellowships also as you have stated that they do for DOs?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Do u think that FMGs have more/less of these stigmas than DOs? Do these stigmas follow FMGs into fellowships also as you have stated that they do for DOs?

FMG's are worse off.

There is no "stigma" if you are going into IM, FM, EM, & Peds for DO's.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

FMG's are worse off.

There is no "stigma" if you are going into IM, FM, EM, & Peds for DO's.

This is true - but looking at it from another perspective: DO will always remain behind your name and you will be asked ad naseum about what a DO is. This is its own kind of stigma because right of the bat, many think this not a real doctor. I think if stigma bothers you (not talking about residency, other physicians' perception of you, etc.) then FMG might be a better choice. I haven't read the entire thread so I'm not sure if the discussion is solely on residency issues.

 

[OSUdoc08]

This is true - but looking at it from another perspective: DO will always remain behind your name and you will be asked ad naseum about what a DO is. This is its own kind of stigma because right of the bat, many think this not a real doctor. I think if stigma bothers you (not talking about residency, other physicians' perception of you, etc.) then FMG might be a better choice. I haven't read the entire thread so I'm not sure if the discussion is solely on residency issues.

I have spent many, many hours in ER's in Texas and Oklahoma since I was in high school. I always worked with a DO.

I NEVER heard anyone ask about what a DO is in that setting.

My white coat says MEDICAL STUDENT on it, and patients call me "Doctor." They just don't care. This is a premed myth.

 

[NRAI2001]

I have spent many, many hours in ER's in Texas and Oklahoma since I was in high school. I always worked with a DO.

I NEVER heard anyone ask about what a DO is in that setting.

My white coat says MEDICAL STUDENT on it, and patients call me "Doctor." They just don't care. This is a premed myth.

My parents, their bros and sisters, and most of their friends are doctors and there still does exist a bias towards DOs. This bias is declining with time, but it still does exist. Not to say that there isn't a bias against FMGs either.

I think i would go DO over FMG, but to not acknowledge any bias is sillie. 😀

 

[EctopicFetus]

Glad to see this thread is surviving without me...Per match info gathered from iserson and the stats that come out you are at a huge disadvantage being a non-US/FMG, then again they do match too but man what a tough road. I have met countless residents who were ATTENDINGS in their home country (some for many yrs) and then come here and have to get used to american customs etc. Many have to do a bunch of bs just to get into a FP or IM or Peds residency. I worked with 2 of my peds residents and one was an attending Urologist in the Ukraine and the other worked as an attending for 5 yrs in Bulgaria. These people knew their stuff. I dont know how the US/FMGs (caribbean) students fair but if people want to know they have a stigma attached to them too. I think a lot of it is brought on by themselves. Like one of my Surg residents went to Ross and when I asked he was all coy and didnt project any confidence, then again I also had a OB resident who went there and she was proud so i think it reflected on both their personality and the fields they were in. Anyhow as the person said I think DO>FMG. The FMGs dont have to luxury of residency spots held for them which also hurts them.

 

[OSUdoc08]

My parents, their bros and sisters, and most of their friends are doctors and there still does exist a bias towards DOs. This bias is declining with time, but it still does exist. Not to say that there isn't a bias against FMGs either.

I think i would go DO over FMG, but to not acknowledge any bias is sillie. 😀

That may be true where you live, but not here.

 

[NRAI2001]

That may be true where you live, but not here.

Perhaps

 

[allendo]

Perhaps

I can see that being true in Cali

 

[MDTDO]

I can see that being true in Cali

Here's what I came up with:

1. DO schools have lower GPA/MCAT averages which means they accept less academically competitive students.

2. Less (academically) competitive students don't do as well on boards and/or are not concerned w/ obtaining high caliber residencies

3. Competitive DO students get good board scores and score good residencies but there aren't as many per 100 students at DO school vs. MD school. see #1 & 2.

4. Most DO students don't get worried about this kind of stuff anyway and are happy to be donig what they're doing, which makes it very enjoyable to go to sit next to them everyday.

any thoughts?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Here's what I came up with:

1. DO schools have lower GPA/MCAT averages which means they accept less academically competitive students.

2. Less (academically) competitive students don't do as well on boards and/or are not concerned w/ obtaining high caliber residencies

3. Competitive DO students get good board scores and score good residencies but there aren't as many per 100 students at DO school vs. MD school. see #1 & 2.

4. Most DO students don't get worried about this kind of stuff anyway and are happy to be donig what they're doing, which makes it very enjoyable to go to sit next to them everyday.

any thoughts?

1. Just because you weren't competitive in college doesn't mean you will not be competitive in medical school (personally, I find the information much more enjoyable to study).

2. You don't have to be competitive in medical school to do well (I have a high class rank, but I'm not competitive----in fact everyone in my class helps each other out).

 

[MDTDO]

1. Just because you weren't competitive in college doesn't mean you will not be competitive in medical school (personally, I find the information much more enjoyable to study).

this is definitely true.

 

[USArmyDoc]

I think everyone is misunderstanding Ectopic. All he is saying is that life is easier as a MD, simple as that. Whats the beef? Ectopic is an open-minded, smart guy. He isn't stuck up. Relax 🙂 😉

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I think everyone is misunderstanding Ectopic. All he is saying is that life is easier as a MD, simple as that. Whats the beef? Ectopic is an open-minded, smart guy. He isn't stuck up. Relax 🙂 😉

is it, though? i just got an interview at the allopathic school my brother attended and was talking with him this afternoon about it. i mentioned my osteopathic acceptances and that it would be very cool to learn omm. his response was that that was something to take into consideration when picking a school, which was very refreshing. if he thought i would be making my life significantly harder by going the do route, i think he would have brought that up. he's a pretty honest person, so i think he'd freely tell me if he thought it would be crazy to pick an osteopathic school over an allopathic school.

if you know going in that you don't want to do derm, orthopedic surgery or opthalmalogy (sp?), would it be insane to choose a do school over an md school? and, no, i know myself well enough to know that i'm not going to change my mind about wanting a holistic and patient-contact-heavy practice, which would point me away from all these fields. also, i've known enough people who've gone to medical school to know that most people actually do stay pretty true to what they wanted to do going in. all my friends who wanted to do primary care are doing primary care. my friends who didn't aren't.

 

[SquidDoc]

is it, though? i just got an interview at the allopathic school my brother attended and was talking with him this afternoon about it. i mentioned my osteopathic acceptances and that it would be very cool to learn omm. his response was that that was something to take into consideration when picking a school, which was very refreshing. if he thought i would be making my life significantly harder by going the do route, i think he would have brought that up. he's a pretty honest person, so i think he'd freely tell me if he thought it would be crazy to pick an osteopathic school over an allopathic school.

if you know going in that you don't want to do derm, orthopedic surgery or opthalmalogy (sp?), would it be insane to choose a do school over an md school? and, no, i know myself well enough to know that i'm not going to change my mind about wanting a holistic and patient-contact-heavy practice, which would point me away from all these fields. also, i've known enough people who've gone to medical school to know that most people actually do stay pretty true to what they wanted to do going in. all my friends who wanted to do primary care are doing primary care. my friends who didn't aren't.

OMM can be fun. Everytime I attend a family function, people are coming up to me talking about sleeping on their neck wrong, or a mild case of sciatica or low back pain. Its nice to know that even though I cannot write prescriptions for muscle relaxants right now, I can have them lay down on the table and always make a difference. Whether I am just increasing range of motion, or just trying to alleviate pain, OMT works. Even as MS2s, the students in my class are already pretty good at many techniques. Its proven by research, just as well as physical therapy. This is one of the reasons DOs do pretty well in sports medicine and PM&R.
BTW, I looked at your profile. I am at COMP and in the Northwest track program (MS2). Let me know if you have any questions about the program.

 

[Taus]

SquidDoc, experiences with medical students such as yourself were one of the main reasons I decided to go DO, just having that extra tool available can sometimes make all the difference...

 

[USArmyDoc]

Why can't we all get along?!

Listen, I think all physicians are great, enough said. I think osteopathic physicians will have great things coming their way in the future. As more and more people become familiar with the "DO," I am confident that they will actually choose a DO over a MD. Why? Well, I think its purely philosophical and people like to know they are being listened to and treated as a whole when going to a doctor. Nevertheless, I think the personality and knowledge of a doctor will trump any degree, MD or DO. Good luck guys!

 

[Blisterpeanuts]

Glad to see this thread is surviving without me...Per match info gathered from iserson and the stats that come out you are at a huge disadvantage being a non-US/FMG, then again they do match too but man what a tough road. I have met countless residents who were ATTENDINGS in their home country (some for many yrs) and then come here and have to get used to american customs etc. Many have to do a bunch of bs just to get into a FP or IM or Peds residency. I worked with 2 of my peds residents and one was an attending Urologist in the Ukraine and the other worked as an attending for 5 yrs in Bulgaria. These people knew their stuff. I dont know how the US/FMGs (caribbean) students fair but if people want to know they have a stigma attached to them too. I think a lot of it is brought on by themselves. Like one of my Surg residents went to Ross and when I asked he was all coy and didnt project any confidence, then again I also had a OB resident who went there and she was proud so i think it reflected on both their personality and the fields they were in. Anyhow as the person said I think DO>FMG. The FMGs dont have to luxury of residency spots held for them which also hurts them.

Hi, EctopicFetus,

I for one appreciate your postings, which I find to be very balanced and thoughtful. Please don't be driven away by a few undiplomatic or rashly composed rejoinders. Some folks hit "submit" before they think. You've been most helpful to me, and probably to a lot of others, with regard to this interesting topic.

I'm a non-traditional premed in my 2nd year of prerequisites and have developed a great interest in osteopathy, not because it's "easier to get into", which I'm starting to believe is a myth, but largely because it seems to fit my philosophy of life better. I'm taking massage therapy in addition to my science courses and I'm hoping to learn some other "manual therapy" modalities later as time allows, such as shiatsu and myofascial trigger point release. It seems to me that OMM is a natural fit for my interests.

I have met reps from allo and osteo medical schools, and surprisingly to me the osteo reps are the ones who seem interested in me as a person. The allo reps tend to say "we expect top grades" and this kind of formulaic statement, while the osteo folks say "So, Blisterpeanuts, what are your interests? How are your studies going?" They are actually interested in me as opposed to a couple of numbers on a sheet of paper. I hope and believe that not all allo schools really share this attitude and approach, and probably the osteo schools are not as warm and fuzzy and wholistic as some make them out to be, but I have noticed a difference in my own (limited) experience.

I met with a neurologist D.O. (1997 grad) recently who said she chose D.O. mainly because the people she interviewed with were so nice and the school was well situated. It wasn't a big conscious decision to switch teams and go DO, it just happened that way for convenience and because of a good impression of their program. She believes that 20 years ago it would have been very difficult for her to land a position in a Harvard teaching hospital which is where she is today, and there are still biases among older docs so one may need a thick skin to go the DO route.

Now that I have learned what a D.O. is, it seems that half the people I know have D.O. PCP's and are very happy with them. I also know of D.O.'s who have gotten into competitive programs like anaesthesiology and surgery. So I am thinking that it's probably "safe" to go with a D.O. education in this day and age provided one has a thick skin and a firm set of goals. I also like the fact that AOA has preserved the rotational internship which has been discarded by AMA; I want to experience this.

By the way when I was a transport volunteer at a big city hospital, one of my fellow volunteer wheelchair pushers was a medical school graduate from South America who was hoping to get into a residency program to start over. What humiliation and hard knocks one must experience to come over here and try to start over. I'm not sure that I could do it.

 

[fitnessexpert]

To me a physician is a physician. We all take the same boards and have to go through the same residencies. I am not going into medicine to be a famous doctor or make a TON of money. Although this sounds cliche, I really do enjoy the fact the D.O. schools like to call medicine the "art of healing". I am going to be a Family Physician in a rural town, whether I am an MD or DO.

 

[Pharos]

To me a physician is a physician. We all take the same boards and have to go through the same residencies. I am not going into medicine to be a famous doctor or make a TON of money. Although this sounds cliche, I really do enjoy the fact the D.O. schools like to call medicine the "art of healing". I am going to be a Family Physician in a rural town, whether I am an MD or DO.

Nice post..... I think maybe more people should think about this sometimes. 👍