Difficult Undergraduate Universities

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Carlsbad1919

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I went to the University of Chicago, a school that prides itself in NOT padding grades. I have friends that went to Cal-Tech and others schools with similar philosophies to Uchicago (at Caltech you have to take quantum mech to graduate I believe...). I am wondering, a good two years out of school - do you think going to these schools is a bad idea for pre-meds? If so, what does that say about the admissions process? I have a wonderful education but I have talked to a number of medical school admission counselors who think that Harvard, Yale, Caltech, Uchicago, and other name-schools grade the same. Any thoughts?

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carlsbad,
that is a very interesting question.
I think if one looks at it purely from a med school admissions standpoint, then optimally it is best to go to a "big name" university and also have a high GPA. If you go to noname state U and have a 3.8, that is likely to impress most adcoms (except perhaps that state's public med school(s) )
less than a high GPA at U of Chicago. Your question also brings up the question of whether it is selfdestructive for a premed to major in something that is likely to be harder/lower grading (say, chemistry or engineering) vs. something that is easier to get high grades in at most schools (i.e. psychology or history, or even biology). I think in the end your education, which you say you feel was excellent, is going to serve you well in whatever you do. That may be little comfort/solace in the med school admissions process, though. I suppose if I were someone who graduated from such a school with a GPA that was lower than some other med school applicants, but still a good GPA (say 3.4 or 3.5) I would be tempted to address this challenge by talking w/the premed advisor(s) at U of Chicago and see whether they, or one of your professors, could point out the grading scale and/or academic rigor of the university in a letter of recommendation. That, plus retaking any classes one might have done poorly in (i.e. got less than a B or so) might be the only thing to do. I do think it is smart for premeds not to take too many hard classes in one semester - I took organic chem, physics, and cell biology (a known killer diller class in my school's bio dept.) all at once one semester and it just about cost me but I was able to pull out decent grades.
 
carlsbad,
I also think that adcoms use the MCAT to try to differentiate between candidates partly because of the fact that it is just too hard for them to know the grading scales at all these different schools. I also think that if one attended a less well known school (like I did) then the MCAT becomes higher stakes. In other words, I am sure I never would have gotten in to the med school I attended if not for my high MCAT score - they might have cut a Harvard student a tiny bit of slack or given her the benefit of the doubt, but coming from a little known liberal arts college I HAD to have the high score. A corollary to your argument is whether someone from a little-known undergrad school (but which provides a great education and doesn't necessarily grade inflate much either) should be punished in the med school admissions process in this way. I think the bottom line is that the admissions process is subjective, though it contains objective elements.
 
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Just my 2 cents...
I've taken pre-req classes at University of Chicago, Northwestern University, University of Washington-Seattle and University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill. U of C was BY FAR the EASIEST place I took classes. Took bio and physics at U of C while still in highschool and my avg gpa there was a 3.8. The states schools - UW and UNC - were WAY more competitive (especially their honors classes).
U of C undergrad just rides on the Graduate School's reputation. If I was on an admission's committee I would totally NOT give any weight to U of C....
But that's just my 2 cents.....
 
It's my understanding that although some consideration is given to the alma matter of an applicant, that consideration pales in comparison to the emphasis that is put on EC's, numbers, and most importantly MCAT scores (supposedly the 'great equalizer').

As others have noted, schools may fall anywhere on the academic spectrum regardless of their status as Ivy/private/small private/lib arts/Large public/small public. In general though, the most academically challenging schools tend to be the Large publics, lib arts schools, and uber-techs (Caltech, MIT, etc.). Private institutions (including Ivies, surprisingly enough) tend to be much easier on grades, largely because they have alumni considerations to take into account. Successful alums reflect favorably on the schools themselves and increase the chance of future donations by said graduates (I might be full of it on this one, but I can't think of any other explanation for their grade inflation).

If you're looking to boost your GPA with extra classes I'd go with the lesser known, non-research oriented publics. I'm a Wa resident, and as an aside I can personally vouch for the previous poster's comment on UW; it's pretty rough. Anyway, rather than pursuing my post-bach at UW, I'm going for either Western or Central U, the reason being that the faculty at these types of schools aren't there to research, they're there to teach. Also, competition at the lesser publics tends to be much lower than at the flagship state schools...
 
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I'm now out west. Very few people in general know U of Chicago, which stinks if you went there and put in massive effort! (grad school)

My impression overall, unfortunately, is that in general med colleges have, say, 3,000 applicants; the first thing that most do is put down an arbitrary cutoff, say 8 min per section mcat and 29 overall, and a min GPA. Until a candidate clears that cutoff, it does not matter if they have great publications or whatnot. Note that Pritzker is different and they'd give you more of a look given your ties to Chicago.

So unfortunately, my take being pretty far into this process is that for many schools, if you miss their academic cutoff but you went to a great school, they won't make an exception & include you in their list.

On the flipside, I checked out Vanderbilt's list of accepted students; they're very heavily weighted toward accepting applicants from the Ivies. Maybe give them a shot?

Best of luck. I've studied at six universities over the years. Chicago is fantastic & my friends who went there undergrad were generally very bright & interesting folks.
 
It's my understanding that although some consideration is given to the alma matter of an applicant, that consideration pales in comparison to the emphasis that is put on EC's, numbers, and most importantly MCAT scores.

As others have noted, schools may fall anywhere on the academic spectrum regardless of their status as Ivy/private/small private/lib arts/Large public/small public. In general though, the most academically challenging schools tend to be the Large publics, lib arts schools, and uber-techs (Caltech, MIT, etc.). Private institutions (including Ivies, surprisingly enough) tend to be much easier on grades, largely because they have alumni considerations to take into account. Successful alums reflect favorably on the schools themselves and increase the chance of future donations by said graduates (I might be full of it on this one, but I can't think of any other explanation for their grade inflation).

If you're looking to boost your GPA with extra classes I'd go with the lesser known, non-research oriented publics. I'm a Wa resident, and as an aside I can personally vouch for the previous poster's comment on UW; it's pretty rough. Anyway, rather than pursuing my post-bach at UW, I'm going for either Western or Central U, the reason being that the faculty at these types of schools aren't there to research, they're there to teach. Also, competition at the lesser publics tends to be much lower than at the flagship state schools...

Just my .02
 
Vanderbilt and many other of the higher ranked private schools have more "ivy" students, but that probably has something to do with the fact that those are a lot of the people who got really high MCAT scores, did more research, etc. Also, these are the people who were willing to pay to attend a private medical school that is very expensive. Also, how many "ivy" students are there doesn't just show that they prefer to accept students from "ivy" schools, but the fact that students from the "ivies" desired to go there (i.e. might have gotten in to several schools, but they chose that particular school). I do think the name of your undergrad school matters, but I went to a not well recognized liberal arts school and still got in to a well known private med school...probably b/c I had the numbers and had done bench research, and was working at that particular institution as well.
 
You may be at a slight disadvantage in obtaining a higher gpa compared to other universities, but I do not believe it is a significant disadvantage.

At my university (noname U), even students who graduate with a 4.0/37 have almost zero chance of matriculating at a top 10 or even top 20 school. Whereas, if you attend a reputable school (ie uchicago), all doors are open.
 
As much as I have heard people complain about the MCAT, it is the one thing that levels the playing field. I have never thought about the reverse problem, doing well at a school that is not given a lot of consideration. It sort of makes me wonder about the education system in general. Also, Jane222, if you took classes while in high school that means you were in the summer school program. I have no idea what your experience was like but I can guarentee you that the summer school is an entirely different entity.
 
I did summer school at one of the tops, and yeah, the class comprises mostly of athletes. Very easy to get an A or A+ since some of them even slept in the class of 22 students :eek:

As much as I have heard people complain about the MCAT, it is the one thing that levels the playing field. I have never thought about the reverse problem, doing well at a school that is not given a lot of consideration. It sort of makes me wonder about the education system in general. Also, Jane222, if you took classes while in high school that means you were in the summer school program. I have no idea what your experience was like but I can guarentee you that the summer school is an entirely different entity.
 
I've talked with a few admissions representative and my school's premedical advisor and it seems that your GPA is adjusted according to the difficulty of your major (i.e. engineering) and the reputation of your school. Even if the medical schools don't do an objective adjustment, the admissions people who review your file will make a note that you attended MIT or Johns Hopkins or UCLA and that those schools have a tough premedical curriculum. That being said, at these top schools, you MCAT score will matter much more. The reason why is because the potential difference between a GPA 3.4 student and a 3.9 student isn't that much and it may be likely that the two have the same potential and the same understanding of the concept. I've known a couple of friends who have a wide range of GPA's (from 3.5 to 3.8) at my school get accepted to the same medical schools because their MCAT scores were the same (high-30s). Therefore, I think that at these top schools, the GPA matters slightly less than the MCAT as long as its above the cut-off range for the medical schools that you are applying to.
 
I did summer school at one of the tops, and yeah, the class comprises mostly of athletes. Very easy to get an A or A+ since some of them even slept in the class of 22 students :eek:

I wouldn't put too much into that unless that class was for a premedical course (there will always be easy classes at any school). Also, be aware that the grading curve for summer school is different from the normal curve since anyone can take the summer school course at a top school if they pay for it whereas the normal students have to get admitted to the school first. Also, a lot of people take summer classes because they failed the same class, so you may have taken the class with a bunch of athletes who failed that class during the school year.
 
Actually, just to set the story straight, I took the regular fall/winter/spring series of Bio at U of C. Although I was in highschool at the time I was concurrently enrolled as a regular U of C student as well. For those who know the history of U of C the university was founded with the idea that they would take intelligent students regardless of whether they graduated from highschool. So I was in the regular U of C class with all the pre-meds and bio majors etc. And I got 4.0/4.0/3.8. The only reason for the 3.8 is that prom and graduation were first and foremost in my mind spring quarter! I didn't work hard for these grades and am not bragging. I'm only trying to demonstrate that U of C isn't all it's cracked up to be. Whereas, on the other hand, I fought tooth and nail for similar grades at University of Washington-Seattle and Northwestern.... So there you go.
 
I went to the University of Chicago, a school that prides itself in NOT padding grades. I have friends that went to Cal-Tech and others schools with similar philosophies to Uchicago (at Caltech you have to take quantum mech to graduate I believe...). I am wondering, a good two years out of school - do you think going to these schools is a bad idea for pre-meds? If so, what does that say about the admissions process? I have a wonderful education but I have talked to a number of medical school admission counselors who think that Harvard, Yale, Caltech, Uchicago, and other name-schools grade the same. Any thoughts?

I think what matters is how you did GPA-wise versus fellow pre-meds from Chicago...not sure what constitutes a good GPA at Chicago, but for argument's sake, say it is 3.5...and say you have a 3.3...that might be a problem...but if you have a 3.6, even though it is below the med school matriculant median of 3.7, you may actually be in very good shape...

Med school adcoms seem to divide the workload for reading apps by region and college - as a Chicago grad, if you apply to say Harvard, the adcom who reads your app is knowledgeable about Chicago - knows the history of applicants from there - knows what constitutes a good GPA - knows who got admitted in prior years with what GPA, etc.

Ironically, it may actually hurt you if you apply to a med school that does not have a history of applicants from Chicago - i.e., they may think your 3.5 kinda sucks...just a thought...just a theory...
 
Point of the story, unless everything else is equal, go to an easy school and put little effort to get a really inflated GPA. At the same time, study and bust your butt for the MCAT, since your score will really depend only on just on how much effort you put into it and your own natural test taking skills/intellgence.
 
Batman has a certain point, but I think he's taking it to the extreme. I do think (actually know) that med schools will cut a certain amount of slack for people who went to ivy league schools and/or some hard engineering schools. At least some med schools, particularly the private ones...
and they won't necessarily take students who went to "noname U" even if the GPA is 3.8...given similar MCAT scores, they'll take the person from "Big Name Private U". The bottom line is life is not necessarily fair...if someone wants to get in med school, he/she needs to do > average on the MCAT, strive for the best possible GPA (within reason...not sure a 3.9 help you vs. a 3.75) and do the requisite volunteer/health care related volunteer work.

Also, probably pointless to argue the "hardness" vs. "easyness" of particular undergrad schools. Even within the same school, the hardness of a particular class often various among various sections taught by different professors, or among various years. Intro chemistry might be a "weedout" class one year, then made easier the next...
The thing with med school admissions is that I think they look for an overall solid performance throughout college...or at least an upward trend. A couple of B's aren't going to sink your chances. They are looking to see what you do over time...do you persist and improve when things get hard, or do you throw in the towel? Past performance is one of the best predictors of future performance in many cases.

I think one thing is super important to remember during this discussion, and nobody has mentioned it. The point of going to college is to get an education, learn new facts and ideas, but most importantly how to THINK and solve problems. Take it from the 30-something on this thread...college isn't just a means to an end (med school). Sometimes people start out thinking they want one thing (med school) but find out they are better suited to another, or vice versa. You need to choose a college that is going to be a good learning environment for YOU...that might be a big private college, a solid state U, or a liberal arts college. If you do quite well at any of those, particularly one that has a decent admissions rate to med school for its students (i.e. >> national average) and apply yourself on the MCAT, you will have a good shot at getting in to some med school.
 
My advice to any high school students applying to college would be to go to the school with the best reputation (not necessarily the best school by the way) that you will be comfortable at, excell in, and gain confidence and momentum for your post-graduate education whatever that may be.
 
Addendum to what I said earlier. In terms of evaluating applicants from different schools and different majors, the medical school representatives say that they often rely more on BCPM GPA than on overall GPA because with the BCPM GPA, at least all the classes are standardized and is a more accurate reflection of the applicant's ability with respect to the premedical coursework than their overall GPA. Therefore, in terms of importance:

BCMP GPA > undergrad major > reputation of undergrad school

This explains why you hear a lot about those 3.8 GPA applicants who have 3.2 BCMP GPAs getting rejected over the engineering applicant with 3.5/3.5 overall and BCMP GPA.
 
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