Dilemma

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Depends on the "minor reason." If it has to do with something reportable to ASHP, then you should. If it is a disciplinary or a competency matter, well, that's up to you on what to do. I can tell you though that the reasons have to be documented and you signed something to the effect that you wouldn't get the pass for an accredited residency.

(And yes, I have been in the position to see petty, stupid stuff cause a certificate denial for the wrong reasons, so it's not quite the same as the NAPLEX failing for me.)
 
ive seen people stay on and complete residency after failing the naplex... so what's the "minor reason"? haha you can't get worse than failing the very exam that allows you to pharmacy... yet people still get certified. Your "minor" incident may not be viewed the same by others?
 
I'd rather not go into details about reasoning. The intent of the question is the same without focusing on specifics. Let's trust that I have no reason to lie and it truly is minor! I didn't fail the NAPLEX or participate in criminal activity. Thoughts?
 
lord999 said:
Depends on the "minor reason." If it has to do with something reportable to ASHP, then you should. If it is a disciplinary or a competency matter, well, that's up to you on what to do. I can tell you though that the reasons have to be documented and you signed something to the effect that you wouldn't get the pass for an accredited residency.

(And yes, I have been in the position to see petty, stupid stuff cause a certificate denial for the wrong reasons, so it's not quite the same as the NAPLEX failing for me.)
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Thanks for the constructive response!
 
Rxoptimist said:
I'd rather not go into details about reasoning. The intent of the question is the same without focusing on specifics. Let's trust that I have no reason to lie and it truly is minor! I didn't fail the NAPLEX or participate in criminal activity. Thoughts?
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Assuming you're forthcoming about the lack residency completion on your CV, if I was screening your application then I'd ask the circumstance and what recourse you took with ASHP?
 
I completed a residency and received my certificate. We had a party at the pharmacy directors house where it was presented. So I understand how the process works. If you did not get a certificate, you did NOT finish your residency. You may have a spent a year there and been paid but you did NOT complete it. The certificate is like a diploma, it is written recognition you did complete your residency. And any reason that would prevent me from receiving my certificate is NOT minor.

I would be having this conversation with the residency program director. I am guessing this already occurred. It was unlikely it was a surprise when you did not receive your certificate. Unless you are willing to share more information no one will be able to help you. Residencies are jobs so if you were illegally discriminated against, go see a lawyer. Or work it out with your program director. Or move on and be prepared to explain what happened to future employers.
 
johnpharm01 said:
I completed a residency and received my certificate. We had a party at the pharmacy directors house where it was presented. So I understand how the process works. If you did not get a certificate, you did NOT finish your residency. You may have a spent a year there and been paid but you did NOT complete it. The certificate is like a diploma, it is written recognition you did complete your residency. And any reason that would prevent me from receiving my certificate is NOT minor.

I would be having this conversation with the residency program director. I am guessing this already occurred. It was unlikely it was a surprise when you did not receive your certificate. Unless you are willing to share more information no one will be able to help you. Residencies are jobs so if you were illegally discriminated against, go see a lawyer. Or work it out with your program director. Or move on and be prepared to explain what happened to future employers.
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Yes, it was minor. Not all residency programs are alike. Discriminated against or not the circumstances are irrelevant. I am not arguing that I completed. I understand I will have to explain. I'm looking to see if anyone has been in a similar situation or witnessed a similar situation and what the recovery process was like. With that in mind, thanks for the responses.
 
Rxoptimist said:
Yes, it was minor. Not all residency programs are alike. Discriminated against or not the circumstances are irrelevant. I am not arguing that I completed. I understand I will have to explain. I'm looking to see if anyone has been in a similar situation or witnessed a similar situation and what the recovery process was like. With that in mind, thanks for the responses.
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Recovery what does that mean?

I took a $50,000 pay cut to do my residency but I can claim it on my CV. It sounds like you took the same pay cut but now have to explain you did not complete your residency. A $50,000 loss is not minor in my book.
 
This is no minor issue at all. I can tell you at least from where I work, in the application process for positions that require completion of a residency, if you answer is "No" to "have you completed a residency", your application will get thrown out. I agree need to discuss this with your RPD.
 
johnpharm01 said:
I completed a residency and received my certificate. We had a party at the pharmacy directors house where it was presented. So I understand how the process works. If you did not get a certificate, you did NOT finish your residency. You may have a spent a year there and been paid but you did NOT complete it. The certificate is like a diploma, it is written recognition you did complete your residency. And any reason that would prevent me from receiving my certificate is NOT minor.

I would be having this conversation with the residency program director. I am guessing this already occurred. It was unlikely it was a surprise when you did not receive your certificate. Unless you are willing to share more information no one will be able to help you. Residencies are jobs so if you were illegally discriminated against, go see a lawyer. Or work it out with your program director. Or move on and be prepared to explain what happened to future employers.
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Not necessarily. Some of the residencies are "clean your locker out, turn in your badge, get the f--- out of there to make room for the new weekend scrubs." I have seen passive-aggressive situations like this (the documentation rules were specifically implemented due to a particular residency in upstate New York routinely screwing residents out of their certificates). In the era though, no one ever checked. And honestly, no one keeps records as this is a certification process.
 
lord999 said:
Not necessarily. Some of the residencies are "clean your locker out, turn in your badge, get the f--- out of there to make room for the new weekend scrubs." I have seen passive-aggressive situations like this (the documentation rules were specifically implemented due to a particular residency in upstate New York routinely screwing residents out of their certificates). In the era though, no one ever checked. And honestly, no one keeps records as this is a certification process.
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Are you referring to pharmacy residencies? If an organization treated me this way I would seek recourse, but I don't think its OP situation.
 
johnpharm01 said:
Are you referring to pharmacy residencies? If an organization treated me this way I would seek recourse, but I don't think its OP situation.
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I agree, but unlike academia which is a more substantial bureaucracy, residencies are more personality based and I've had to deal with RPD's who screwed over residents on personal and nonprofessional reasons then try to claim that because residents have no civil service protection, protections such as hostile work environment, sexual harassment, physical harassment (I saw a now-former RPD physically slap her resident in front of the outpatient pharmacy in full view of the VA police, patients, and multiple cameras, VA police actually used the hostile patient takedown on her after not cooperating). I've seen people be complete power trippers as an RPD and take advantage of situations to everyone's detriment. So, I do think you're right that there is a reason, but if it's not documented down and counseled, then its different. But yes, "minor reason" is a very encompassing term.
 
lord999 said:
In the era though, no one ever checked. And honestly, no one keeps records as this is a certification process.
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Does people check if you actually got a certificate or not? I mean, not to be sneaky but I don't see what would prevent the OP from claiming the residency on his (her?) resume and only give the details when questions come up. He did one whole year after all and got the relevant experience. I mean people still listed their work experience even if they got fired from that job
 
Sabril said:
Does people check if you actually got a certificate or not? I mean, not to be sneaky but I don't see what would prevent the OP from claiming the residency on his (her?) resume and only give the details when questions come up. He did one whole year after all and got the relevant experience. I mean people still listed their work experience even if they got fired from that job
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For ASHP, there isn't a formal certificate per se, but the matter of pass or fail has to be recorded somewhere upon request. Most use that documentation system PharmAcademic from McCreadie (There's a story behind this) but it's fairly trivial to look this up. However, most don't (hilariously enough, I've known situations where hiring pharmacists do not check the license status of new hires and all sorts of things happened).
 
Sabril said:
Does people check if you actually got a certificate or not? I mean, not to be sneaky but I don't see what would prevent the OP from claiming the residency on his (her?) resume and only give the details when questions come up. He did one whole year after all and got the relevant experience. I mean people still listed their work experience even if they got fired from that job
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Interesting point of view. I have never had anyone ask me for a copy, but the thing is huge like some old time diploma. I believe they could tell if one worked at the site just by asking questions
 
lord999 said:
I agree, but unlike academia which is a more substantial bureaucracy, residencies are more personality based and I've had to deal with RPD's who screwed over residents on personal and nonprofessional reasons then try to claim that because residents have no civil service protection, protections such as hostile work environment, sexual harassment, physical harassment (I saw a now-former RPD physically slap her resident in front of the outpatient pharmacy in full view of the VA police, patients, and multiple cameras, VA police actually used the hostile patient takedown on her after not cooperating). I've seen people be complete power trippers as an RPD and take advantage of situations to everyone's detriment. So, I do think you're right that there is a reason, but if it's not documented down and counseled, then its different. But yes, "minor reason" is a very encompassing term.
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I agree that it is even more important that you find a good match in a pharmacy residency. I interviewed with a dozen at midyear and then three on site. Egos rule the roost at many programs especially if your RPD is well published and pharmacy famous. I kept my program director happy, he was easy going to begin with and had a great experience used him as a reference and could have used any pharmacist or dr with one exception. I just wished there were as good permanent positions.
 
Wow OP, that would really suck. Likes others have said, I would bed your preceptor for more time/another chance, to do whatever is necessary to get your pass. If that is not possible, then again like others have said, I would file a complaint with ASHP. After that, basically all you can do is list is as a work experience and be prepared to explain why the work experience ended without a residency completion.

Edited to add...."I would bed your preceptor", um yeah, that was a bad typo. I meant BEG your preceptor, um not bedding your preceptor.
 
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Honestly, I would probably just list it as a residency and hope no one asks point blank if I really got a certificate at the end - surely no one actually ever asks that or looks into it at all?

I doubt any hiring manager anywhere is going to be impressed with any answer about why you didn't get a certificate and based on the fact you don't want to share the reason with us I suspect you know you don't have a good answer.
 
BidingMyTime said:
Wow OP, that would really suck. Likes others have said, I would bed your preceptor for more time/another chance, to do whatever is necessary to get your pass. If that is not possible, then again like others have said, I would file a complaint with ASHP. After that, basically all you can do is list is as a work experience and be prepared to explain why the work experience ended without a residency completion.
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Good advice. I mean I don't really know about this kind of stuff so I am just curious more than anything else because the whole thing just sounds so bizarre. I understand why the OP would not want to disclose any further info since this is a public forum, but to think there is such a mistake that is big enough for you to not be granted completion, but minor enough that you are not terminated immediately (which may even be better so you can move on with your life earlier). Unless the mistake actually happened or discovered in the last days of the residency, someone is getting screwed over big time here.

Can the OP qualify for a board certification exam? I mean it will take more time and more work but I don't think it is impossible. Also please correct me but if a position requires anything, it is more likely the board certification than the residency (and I don't think the interviewer cares much how you got your board certification)
 
owlegrad said:
Honestly, I would probably just list it as a residency and hope no one asks point blank if I really got a certificate at the end - surely no one actually ever asks that or looks into it at all?

I doubt any hiring manager anywhere is going to be impressed with any answer about why you didn't get a certificate and based on the fact you don't want to share the reason with us I suspect you know you don't have a good answer.
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Technically, not having completed a PGY-1 residency will prevent one from:
  • Sitting for BCPS within their first 3 years of practice (BPS verifies the certificate)
  • Immediately precepting PGY-1 and eventually PGY-2 residents per ASHP accreditation standards (ASHP may check during site visits)
  • Applying to a certain PGY-2s/certain fellowships
Whether an employer does their due diligence in vetting your claim of residency completion is less concrete.

Frankly, you have way more to lose lying about your credentials than listing your residency experiences with an asterisk that you did not finish training.
 
The only time I ever needed the physical residency certificate was for my BCPS application.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Sabril said:
Does people check if you actually got a certificate or not? I mean, not to be sneaky but I don't see what would prevent the OP from claiming the residency on his (her?) resume and only give the details when questions come up. He did one whole year after all and got the relevant experience. I mean people still listed their work experience even if they got fired from that job
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I'm pretty sure ASHP does maintain a list of residency graduates from recent years. Maybe a year or two ago, they came out with a web-based verification tool, but ASHP pulled it shortly after launch for some reason. I looked myself up when it was released, and if I remember correctly, you could look someone up if you had their name, graduation year, and the state where the residency was located. While I can no longer find this tool, I'm pretty sure that they would be able to continue collecting that data. Be aware that the data on the OP's incompletion is likely recorded somewhere.

On a more realistic and pertinent note to the OP, if you're going to put down that you completed your residency, I would probably recommend looking for positions outside the immediate geographical area of your residency. Pharmacy leaders talk, and quite frankly you would be more likely to be exposed in this manner.
 
like others have said - and I will echo
You don't fail a residency for anything minor - a program has zero reason to withhold the certificate without very good cause for multiple reasons. 1. lawsuits 2. It makes them look bad as in they don't know how to train residents 3. people talk, and it would encourage residents to NOT apply in the future.

You had to have done something pretty stupid or simply been incompetent - not to be mean, but this is the truth

But - if you put it on your resume - you simply can not mention actually graduating and hope it doesn't come back to harm you. I do know residents who have dropped out and still gotten hospital jobs, but it is hard. Don't lie, just don't tell the truth and don't plan on applying for a job in the same city
 
No matter how “minor” thing was, if that failed you to complete residency, it is major.

OP seems like being too optimistic about himself or trying to ignore the truth. That is my impression. No offence.
 
ineeddrug said:
No matter how “minor” thing was, if that failed you to complete residency, it is major.

OP seems like being too optimistic about himself or trying to ignore the truth. That is my impression. No offence.
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I mean, it has a MAJOR impact on my life. But no question it was a minor reason for me not getting my certificate. I learned the hard way that not everything is fair in life. I have no energy to be negative about situations outside of my control and no energy for lawsuits. There is plenty to be positive about it. I didn't go into residency to get a check mark or to get BCPS certified. I received experience, unfortunately the physical acknowledgement of my efforts didn't materialize. I'm not going to cry about it -- if this is how I am treated after killing and pushing myself for a year and making all sorts of sacrifices-- a certificate from this program feels almost meaningless.
 
Rxoptimist said:
I mean, it has a MAJOR impact on my life. But no question it was a minor reason for me not getting my certificate. I learned the hard way that not everything is fair in life. I have no energy to be negative about situations outside of my control and no energy for lawsuits. There is plenty to be positive about it. I didn't go into residency to get a check mark or to get BCPS certified. I received experience, unfortunately the physical acknowledgement of my efforts didn't materialize. I'm not going to cry about it -- if this is how I am treated after killing and pushing myself for a year and making all sorts of sacrifices-- a certificate from this program feels almost meaningless.
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denial ain't just a river in egypt
 
Every job I applied to after residency called my past RPDs as a reference (even after being out of residency for a while). If I listed other preceptors as references they specifically wanted to call my RPDs too. Like others have said, I also had to upload a copy of my certificates to the BPS website for board certification exams. I personally think the truth is going to come out no matter what and it might be best disclosing what happened upfront...
 
owlegrad said:
Honestly, I would probably just list it as a residency and hope no one asks point blank if I really got a certificate at the end - surely no one actually ever asks that or looks into it at all?

I doubt any hiring manager anywhere is going to be impressed with any answer about why you didn't get a certificate and based on the fact you don't want to share the reason with us I suspect you know you don't have a good answer.
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Agree with this. I think your major sticking point is going to be BCPS as others have mentioned, so you might need to avoid jobs that are going to require it within a certain time frame (or else be prepared to explain why you can't sit for the exam for another two years).
 
I had a coresident who almost did not get his certificate because he was not going to turn in a final write up of his project. The rest of us were going out for lunch and doing nothing the last day while he was trying to finish it.
 
KARM12 said:
I had a coresident who almost did not get his certificate because he was not going to turn in a final write up of his project. The rest of us were going out for lunch and doing nothing the last day while he was trying to finish it.
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I bet it's something like that.
" I just skipped the last few days. I tooooold them I was gong to need those days off"
 
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